Is anyone really doing permaculture?

As this Friday's blog post, I just published this photo essay and film that shows some good permaculture techniques - along with the alternatives - from remote China. http://forestvoices.org/farmblog/2013/11/8/lens-china-mountain-harvest

Peter Ellis wrote:It struck me rather suddenly this afternoon that our discussion here is looking at the subject almost entirely from one specific perspective, and not a very permaculture one at that.

All of us engaging in this thread are relative "haves" in the world. Proven by the fact that we're engaging in a discussion and exchange of ideas through the internet. "Have-nots" are not logging onto the internet to chat about permaculture, they both have no (or effectively no) access to the internet and much more pressing demands on their time, like gathering food and fuel for tonight's dinner.

From our "have" perspective, we're asking "how do I use permaculture to keep up my current lifestyle?" - and before anyone goes off on me about how they're cutting back and reducing, etc., it's a general description and I recognize it won't fit absolutely everyone - but I think the tenor of this thread shows that it fits many pretty well.

Meanwhile, the "have-nots" need to be introduced to permaculture not so they may maintain their current lifestyle, but so that they may improve it by leaps and bounds and on an ongoing, increasing basis. To some extent there are probably people out there in that part of the world's population that are utilizing permaculture (Mollison and Lawton could probably give us examples)but we won't hear them in these discussions because they're still without internet access and they're still working on things much more immediate to their needs than internet talks.

So, how to define "really doing permaculture" really needs to be given some thought with a broad - really broad - perspective. For the family someplace in sub-Saharan Africa that has found out about permaculture and been able to utilize swales to hold water, mob-grazing to restore grasslands and perennial crops to reduce the amount of work needed to grow food, that has reduced their fuel needs by adopting any of a number of efficient wood burning stoves - they're really doing permaculture. They are not "making a living" from it - it is the way they are living.

yes -agreed with this perspective...although i think the "have nots" are already naturally much more in line with permaculture and really doing it, because they have to figure out some ways of going about making a life with what they have, and also theres a lot of beneficial - NOT DOING. just naturally poor people are much less wasteful, and in general lead greener lives, not the green washed capatilist kind of green, but truly green. i cannot suggest that this is always due to awareness of these issues or always the result of striving for a better eco friendly lifestyle, more like they just have no choice but to do things in a way which is MUCH less damaging and wasteful. and it wouldnt show to someone to was looking for proof of this, not unless they looked at it such a way as to see this.

i've read through this thread at various times it keeps coming up and keep having the same kinds of thoughts...which are kinda hard to articulate bluntly...but it keeps coming up for me as being important to explore and think about.and quite probably i am being overly general here, theres certainly exceptions. not to say people who have lots of land, pretty neat houses with the glam "green" products in them and etc, arent capable of really doing permaculture, or to try to shame anyone...just i think the people really doing this would not look like what one might think at first glance....and seem much more likely to be living in shacks, not be able to afford land, no electricity, no gadgets and etc....and theres ...something about this that i think is...hmmm how to say??? theres something there to be examined and reflected upon, imo....

but this is something i learned being a "have not" truthfully and bluntly, i am extremely poor and have been my whole adult life basically, because much as i try to make myself care about money, etc, i just dont...but its shown me many things...how these limits can actually be beneficial- the power of limits and non doing. i am at least rich in free time, and really just dont give a frack about much of these weird social ideas, having it be shown and recognized...except that its just sort of out there in our cultural mythos and ways...to be struggling with these things or having that old nagging "not good enough" type stuff...and so many people get caught up in this sort of thing, no matter how much we as individuals question and try to dismantle these ways...and ideologies...

and definitely i have for many many years been too busy *chopping wood and carrying water* and without electricty to be wasting my time ruminating on such things!!! i know theres a lot of people out there doing this sort of thing, and moving in these directions, whatever they call it- permaculture or just living simply that dont use internet, or dont even use verbal conceptualizations of these things...maybe living in hole-y shacks =) and whatnot....really doing permaculture, or at least much closer to the real thing (imho) but its not a loud noticeable thing....

and forgive me my free associating with music, but this one is bugging me to post it right now....my head has been thinking in songs lately =)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ym32155Svc

Collin Vickers wrote:Hey Permies,

Every time I do a little research about the greats of permaculture/sustainable agriculture, (Holzer, Salatin, Mollison, Lawton, Fukuoka, Bullock Bros,) sooner or later I read about how their methods don't work quite as well as they are purported to, or that corners are being cut, they talk all day but don't own an inch of land, or something.


But, I don't see the produce. Where are the videos and pictures testifying to the permie cornucopia? Is there even one person making the coveted $100k annual farm-based income, or feeding the masses top quality food for less than the megamarts? Are the ones that can do it staying home to do it, while those that can't settle for teaching it?


There are also lots of start-ups that fail and go back on the market in short order. Operator error, to be sure, but they can't all be ignoramuses.

Could there be someone out there doing the unglorified, off-camera, unpublished work of permaculture and realizing the dream? If so, are any of them forthcoming enough to post a copy of thier balance sheets, tax returns, and comprehensive, specific details about how they did it, from the time the first seed was planted? I figure Salatin comes close, but then I read about how chicken tractors are little better than miniaturized, portable factory farms. Holzer has a lot of problems with government intereference, but lets suppose he didn't - how much would his acreage actually produce?

Hey Colin,

There really aren't a ton of vidoes or specific stats or plans out there to draw on and that's too bad because it would be an awesome resource. The best I can suggest is to look at what is out there and list the elements and techniques you think would work in your area or that you would like to incorporate into your designs. Next is the permaculture principle of Observe and Interact. This is the best way to gather specific information about your site. It takes time but pays off in the end.Then get a top notch Permaculture designer to draw up a plan for your place with those elements in mind and with your input. This is about a specific as you can get since it's all based on your piece of land and the inputs you have there. There's no real way to calculate the level of success you may have so you have to remember that these techniques come in part from hundreds of thousands of years of trial and error and have fed billions of tribal peoples over hundreds of thousands of years. That's a pretty good track record.

As for the market end of things, I wouldn't focus on that so much. Just get the best design you can in place, start building it and in time you will find ways to make some revenue from your land. Living cheaply, avoiding debt and supplying your own needs is the financial foundation on which to build revenue streams. We've all seen people who get rich and blow it all quickly because they don't have that foundation. The other thing I would mention is that comparing yourself to others, especially celebrated others, is the best way to make yourself miserable in this life. I draw incredible inspiration and perspective from Daniel Quinns' Ishmael trilogy of books (Ishmael, The Story of B and My Ishmael) and highly recommend them to anyone who wants to live outside the box. They have a lot to teach us about how our ancestors lived, especially the idea that "there's no one right way for people to live" which is a major philosophical perspective for tribal people and the lack of which is one of the biggest causes of the failure of "civilization" with it's "there is only one right way, conform or die" attitude. (That worked out great for the Native Americans.) With a larger historical perspective, things seem much clearer in the present because history repeats itself and the cyles become more visible to you.

This conversation seems to have taken a tough turn. I recommend you start small, read a lot and take permaculture course from a respected teacher. What's amazing about the promise of permaculture, is that you can do it at all scales. Check out this great example I just stumbled upon - http://www.ted.com/talks/ron_finley_a_guerilla_gardener_in_south_central_la.html

Joel's work at Polyface Farm was mentioned. His place is a stop-by place, and there are any arm of interns that you can get ahold of they will tell you a lot. One of them was at my own permaculture course. Those of us in the sustainability industry often say that it takes work to sustain anything, and the same can be said of Joel's operation. Keep in mind that it's not a simple formula that comes down to calories; you need to consider the ethics of permaculture and the world we are all striving to create. Allan Savory and his work at the Savory Institute was mentioned. I encourage you to dig into his book, science, and the HUB networks - in the US and all over the world - he is involved in. I've done a project with them; even though I have issues with some of the science - and I won't debate that on this forum - they are doing some very good work, on the ground. Many of their ranches are also stop-by places, open to visitors. I'm happy to put you in touch with some of them.

Good luck in your work and endeavors! Know that many of us are here to help everyone on their journey. Onward!

What does this permaculture business model look like?

Land (Buy outright, mortgage, lease) Figure this has a payback period of X years…some might suggest 30 year mortgage, but I would try to think of this as a 10 year term for no other reason than to eliminate debt.
Taxes

Housing

Seed

Land Management (engineering, shaping, sculpting, design, etc)

Equipment

Utilities (electricity, fuel, etc)

Sale Price of Product to Consumer (What product(s) are you targeting as a business?)

I am a newbie regarding permaculture, but as a concept it is logical. The discussion point made repeatedly in this thread is that the future is unknowable and the ethics of preservation outweigh profit. This is not sustainable. If your farm is not profitable, then you won't be around to do anything for the land. Having a sense of the costs (and some of the risks) at the outset is a must…yes, you can and will still see unknown challenges.

If you begin with a statement that you want the farm to net (after taxes, etc) $100,000.00 (US). Assume the government will take 1/2 of your money in various taxes across the various levels. Also assume that your expenses are about 1/2 of your cost of revenue.
$400,000.00 (Revenue)
-$200,000.00 (Expenses)
=$200,000.00 (Profit before Taxes)
-$100,000.00 (Taxes)
=$100,000.00 (Profit)

When I put it in that context I am presuming no salary is being paid to the owner. This is a common business model. This model gets scaled the larger the revenue number because covering overhead costs, which are often fairly static, gets easier as the revenue grows.

$200,000.00 (Revenue)
-$100,000.00 (Expenses)
=$100,000.00 (Profit before Taxes)
-$50,000.00 (Taxes)
=$50,000.00 (Profit)

I haven't tried to go through and determine what the business model actually is with real expenses and pricing, but this is how I would begin.

The thing I've noticed is that the "products" are not going to be at significant volumes since you are doing polyculture. I'm also fairly skeptical about the costs actually being lower. Labor appears to be the gate to this model, not necessarily a game breaker, but it is a very real challenge to scale towards financial independence. The costs saved via polyculture are offset by the costs of harvesting small volumes…repeatedly.

The value to land improvement and sustainability is important and cannot be ignored, but if you can't pay the bills, then again it doesn't matter much how much you WANT to save the planet.

I am not saying to not use this methodology. I certainly appears to be a reasonable approach on a small scale, but having it be the primary path for family income seems to be a stretch at least on first glimpse. The piece that I keep coming back to in my business mind is the "niche-up" as some have put it. Identify a component that you are passionate about and pursue it. Do the polyculture for your own foodstuff and mix in some more focused "mono-culture" or something approaching it in a more blended fashion to enable you to specialize and compete in pricing & enough volume of high quality product to generate a focused revenue. Jim Collins would call this the Hedge Hog Principle, what can you be the best in the world at while being profitable? I don't think it matters much if it is making handcrafted tools, wine, jellies, smoked ham or medicinals…but I do think you need a comprehensive strategy…even one that changes every 3-5 years. You could attempt the generalist approach with a good old fashioned General Store, but I suspect you would end up bringing in other suppliers' farm goods which don't meet your "ethical" permaculture standards.

This is some pretty compelling stuff regarding the holistic approach to agriculture. I would love to hear some feedback on the different components in the model above. I think the land quality and how quickly you see it being productive dictates how much capital you need to start, but am definitely open to everyone's thoughts.

Eric-
If you are only achieving a 50% net on your gross income, I would really question that permaculture is playing much of a role in the operation of the farm. For me, one of the most important ways that permaculture makes business sense, is that by applying the principles of permaculture to my farm, I am able to achieve a much higher net to gross ratio than my organic competitors. My experience is that the net to gross relationship is the most important aspect of running a profitable farm. Right now I am netting about 65% of my gross, still in the developmental stage, and I believe that increasing this ratio is the key to increasing my personal annual income.

And I would say that aiming for $100k in farm net income is beyond unrealistic. Shoot for the stars, I agree. But realistically, if you are not leveraging petroleum or cheap labor, that is a pretty fantastic expectation of farm life. One of the ways that permaculture makes farming work is by greatly reducing our monetary needs, by providing for ourselves directly. A penny saved is worth as much as a penny earned, and it is much easier to accomplish.

just my 2cents. and yes I make my living 100% from my permaculture farm. so I got my cred.

And, of course, a penny saved is worth more than a penny earned because the saved one isn't taxable...

Thanks for the quick response. I love the idea that the margins are better than an average business model for you. That is heartening. The second point is a lot more of what I suspected was the real challenge to making it a traditional business, it is truly difficult to scale. If aiming at $100k for revenue is unrealistic, then it would be very difficult to make a competitive status quo salary/income. The subsequent point about a penny saved is worth more because it isn't taxed is certainly true, but without hard currency it becomes difficult to get the things you don't have which may be more than simple wants, some may very well be needs.

I look forward to more great feedback!!

Adam Klaus wrote:
Right now I am netting about 65% of my gross, still in the developmental stage, and I believe that increasing this ratio is the key to increasing my personal annual income.

And I would say that aiming for $100k in farm net income is beyond unrealistic."

Eric Bauswell wrote:What does this permaculture business model look like?

Sometimes the model looks nothing like what you've written. It all depends on the land, the person, and other intangibles. I thinks that's why there are so many permaculture "stories" to get us to think about the story that will work for us.

One Bill tells is of a guy who took a PDC from him. He says he's the only one in American making money off of cattle (this was years ago before rotational grazing was so well known). He divided his 100 acres into 1 acre paddocks. People pay him to winter their cattle and they weigh the cattle coming and going. He put 1000 on an acre (or something like that) and moved them every day.

Or, you know, there's Sepp's model which turned into tourism because his government made it too hard to actually sell produce that he charges people to tour his land and if they take any produce, well, he wont prosecute...

Or the guy who buys the house with the jungle in the backyard who delays ripping them all out and a florist comes over asking where the weekly batch of flowers is....

I would expect it does as do so many other businesses. The thing is I would like to see some baseline expectations being able to be voiced…maybe it is simply that I'm new to this. Though I think it is more likely that it is such a huge concept that trying to capture it in a simplified model doesn't work for most people…because it isn't something that is simple. I want it to be simple so that I can start to wrap my brain around it…and everything can be simplified. The problem with simplifying it is that it inevitably becomes less accurate…and that's alright as long as you understand that. (Physics, etc is filled with this approach.)

Cj Verde wrote:

Eric Bauswell wrote:What does this permaculture business model look like?

Sometimes the model looks nothing like what you've written. It all depends on the land, the person, and other intangibles. I thinks that's why there are so many permaculture "stories" to get us to think about the story that will work for us.

Eric Bauswell wrote:The thing is I would like to see some baseline expectations being able to be voiced…maybe it is simply that I'm new to this.

Maybe we should back up a moment.

Any business can be a "permaculture business" as long as the 3 Ethics are followed:
Care of Earth
Care of People
Return of Surplus to the 1st two ethics (in the PDM it's listed as Setting Limits to Population and Consumption but there seems to have been an evolution of that ethic)


Please consider joining this thread:
Permaculture Designer's Manual Book Club

I'm just getting started. I have livestock that produce (lamb and rabbit). I am self-employed at a job that I don't intend to give up, working 30 hours a week for a (to some) meager but liveable income. I'm about to buy acreage and these are my goals: 1) eliminate the money I pay now for land rent and extra feed for my livestock. 2) reduce my own grocery and pet food expenses, making my meager income even more liveable without increasing my taxes. 3) produce enough surplus that I can begin to offer "shares" to family and friends of my lamb, rabbit, and then add eggs and produce from the land as it is developed, for an additional supplimental income. 4) Do all of this in a way that minimizes the labor that is required, I am single and not getting any younger, and I want more time to enjoy the things I like doing.. and 5) Improves the land and the species on the land that enables it to be more productive, more wild in some parts, and begins to sustain it's own productivity with fruits and veggies that propogate themselves because they were placed in the right environment and protected from chemicals and toxins.

I don't ever intend to make a $100,000 tax return to show to anyone else my success. My success will be in REDUCING the taxes that I pay while becoming more self-sufficient, improving the land, and sharing with others. I'll still need to buy gasoline to get to my "real job." I'll still be buying things like socks and cheese, I have no intention of making my own! Will I be successful? I don't know, but it certainly seems reasonable and obtainable to me to reach *my* goals, in time, and that makes me happy.

Jamie Jackson wrote:About 5 years ago I donated a small amount to kiva.org, the small loan organization and keep re-loaning the same money. You pick someone trying to upgrade/ start their business. SO many farmers wanted money for seed and pesticide and/or herbicides. I contacted Kiva and asked them why can't they form coops or teaching groups and teach people permaculture or at least organic farming. They said I'm welcome to do that. We've given up everything we have to build a self-sufficient homestead and teach along the way, but I"m teaching locals. We might be in the "have" group, but just barely When we get our house finished and more experience under our belts, we'll teach more and more.

Jamie congrats on being able to make the commitment to fully realize permaculture. With that said the following is more directed at people who do not base their livelihoods on permaculture based agriculture or instruction, but still aspire to follow permaculture ethics: The ethical concept of reinvesting surplus (of "Haves") in people should be focused on the people who we can help the most. Personally my interpretation of this is to both look outward at the people who depend on learning permaculture concepts for survival in the short-term and to look into own communities for the people who lack food security and access to the means to get nutritious food. These people might not be starving, but they will on average have lower lifespans and face more health problems (lower quality of life). This especially applicable to the urban poor in "affluent countries", but also in rural and suburban areas and "developing countries".
By looking to help people in nearby communities and localities we are able to better educate and provide assistance in ways that work for our areas 1) in a biological sense (the actual plants, ecosystems, and relevant techniques in the local climate) 2) in a culturally relevant sense (how to explain it, maintain it, and propagate it in meaningful ways) and 3) in a communal sense (by providing introduction to a community and providing support). My personal goal for doing this is providing instruction focused on the recipient's needs through permaculture techniques (regardless of whether they aspire to follow or know permaculture ethics per se) and by providing flexible access to the material means of implementation: tools, cuttings, seeds, and human resources.
I think this is especially relevant in areas that often self-segregate. (along lines such as: wealth, class, religion, age, politics, profession, ethnicity, race, language, and various combinations) We (people in largely self-segregated communities) create parallel networks of routine interaction when we have much in common and live in the same areas. I grew up in Richmond, Virginia and experienced a feeling of dread upon realizing I drove by the houses of thousands of residents regularly and I knew nothing about them besides where their hypothetical children might go to school. This sense of dread was not a reflexive threatened fear, but a deep discomfort due to the realization that I lived in an area where many had reduced hundreds of potential personal interactions to outright avoidance, impersonal economic transactions, gross generalizations, and politics. Doing that gives many the self-assurance to believe that things are all good here (with the exception of sensationalized crime) and ignore systemic problems except in certain contexts (often the welfare state or charity, depending on political flavor). I would add that creating and supporting hugely (perhaps radically) accessible spaces and events where these parallel networks of people can interact is highly important. Certainly some people need to travel to create change, but (in my opinion) too many think it is the only way to create meaningful change.
- Rant Complete- - Ben

Hey all,

OP here.

A few years have passed since I posted this topic, and I have to say, I've come to realize that there are lots of people ACTUALLY doing permaculture, all over the place. They aren't necessarily on camera, but they're definitely out there doing the good work that needs to be done.

A lot of the work I have seen first hand is at Dancing Rabbit Eco-Village, where I am now a member! If you're interested, check us out at www.dancingrabbit.org

I am most impressed with Geoff Lawton and some of the people he has showcased in the video series he and his comrades have produced in connection with their online PDC project. I definitely recommend checking that out.

Thanks for taking so much interest in the topic and keep growing the greens!

- CV

I totally agree with Collin, and generally the answer to the original question is 'not really'. Though people don't really want to admit that, so you get answers like "but permaculture isn't about making money" or some such. Mostly defending permaculture, by saying that the OP is asking if anyone has made a square fit into a circle, with the obvious reply of 'of course not.'
There is a guy in Vermont who used to post here, who is farming for profit in a permaculture way http://sugarmtnfarm.com/

I'll admit that it is hard for the average Joe, to feed themselves of a 1/4 acre section, let alone make money. You are going to need a decent amount of land, and a solid business plan, some experience with business and farming will help.

I agree with the OP re. Joel Salatin, I don't see that he is doing anything especially permaculture, importing tons of feed, no real systems supporting other systems etc. Just 'free range farming' which is not all that exciting or unique.

The concepts are good, design your land to save and conserve water, stack functions etc. but is the ROI of these modification positive? I think the payback period will be many, many years for things like swales and ponds. If you are going to put in a fence, or plant some trees, or starting something from scratch then you may as well use permaculture design systems, but I wouldn't be changing existing structures for the sake of permaculture and expect to get a positive ROI.

This topic has been thrashed before, and the stock standard answer is that the OP has no idea that permaculture isn't about money. Instead of a more honest answer of yes or no.

Permaculture has helped me and my family save money, but here is an estimated accounting
using passive solar design for small cabin in Alaska instead of conventional wood heating will save me i estimate about 3 weeks of firewood processing. thats a $3,000 value if you compare to my construction wages. already we've not had to burn wood for 3 months (most people do occasionaly thru the summer and have to put up with wearing sweaters indoors, while we can just be in underwear inside) so it saves us money and increases our quality of life at the same time
harvesting rainwater off the roofs instead of walking 1/2 mile to the community well for pumping every time i want 150 gallons during the summer saves us at least 2 days during the summer, thats a $400 value PLUS the intangible value of not having to deal with community well politics
we eat salads from the garden most every day, about a 3$ value. OVer the season, we probably get about $300 worth of produce from our microgarden, BUT we do maybe 6 days work throughout the season, so thats working all day for $50/day. this represents a loss over construction wages of around $900.
realistically, we produce maybe 2% of our calories and maybe 4% of our food volume here in our small gardens
I spent about a day preparing soil in pots and starting seedlings and tending tomatoes and cucumbers for indoor growing and we get about 1 small tomato per day. thats a huge loss BUT i get the intangible value of a lush wall of greenery to look at in my house whenever i want.
Outhouse over septic system saves probably $5-10k on installation costs at least.
we r only the 2nd year into gardening here and i spent the 1st year focussed on building, so hopefully the food situation will improve. sunchokes and other perennials geting online. lambsquarters does well were and we love it cooked....

BUT anyone who complains that they cant grow anything should put their URINE on their garden, just be careful not too much. guaranteed to increase the growth. its a power packed N fertilizer, i know from experience.
i do have a profile on permacultureglobal.com in southcentral alaska

Competing with the monetary "profits" of the heavily subsidized chemical agricultural market isn't the goal of permaculture. When I started my permaculture gardens, my goal was to feed my family and not buy empty food. It worked. My oldest son is 17 and over six feet tall. We stayed out of bankruptcy, and we saw our food bill was only 25% of the food bill of our neighbors. And when they were complaining of inflation, we were rejoicing for the good harvest and the sunshine.

Did I pull and dig thousands of weeds? Yes. Did I endure fruit flies, poison hemlock, hornworm (tiger moth) and cocklebur infestations? Yes. Did I get a very dark tan, pull a full back muscles, and chaise the coyotes from my chicken house? Yes. But I also enjoyed delicious varieties of vegetables, the best eggs I have ever tasted, the best chicken I have ever tasted, and the joys of knowing my children were getting the very best food the earth could provide. I give the Creator all of the Glory for revealing His very best methods of feeding my family, for bringing people from hundreds of miles to taste the food of my garden, for keeping our family from debtors and starvation, and for growing my children into healthy and happy teens.

If a person is worried about "making money" from permaculture, the person is ignoring the purpose of growing good food for the best reasons. Start a CSA. Be more attentive to your plants. Study soil nutrition very intently. And not for one day do you leave your garden untended.

I once had a friend visit my house. She complained that my farm had too many "weeds" and my plants were growing very wildly. She enjoyed my food and I enjoyed her company very much. Her house was well groomed, there were no plants growing out of "place" and her lawn was cut very short.

So I asked her (for the sake of conversation) what she would do if she were me. She said she used a product called "Preen". I thanked her politely and served her some very delicious, very large Brandywine tomatoes from my garden. She complimented me on their size, and later she called and said they were delicious.

A few months later my friend took us to the airport. We were going to visit my parents. She sat in the front seat and complained the whole time that her back hurt. I told her she should see a doctor. It could be a kidney infection.

When we returned from the visit, I asked her how she felt. She was still in pain and going to see more doctors. She had two young children and a very busy life, but she was usually happy and didn't complain unnecessarily .

A few weeks later, my friend Susan called me. She was very quiet on the phone. I asked her again how she was feeling. She said she had terminal cancer and a few weeks later I saw her wheeled into church on a gurney. A few weeks after that, she passed.

Its just not worth it to put poison on our hands, on our food, and in our water. Permaculture is worth every second of health and sustainable farming practice.

My advice to anyone who is struggling to get a good garden going: focus on the health of your plants. Focus on picking varieties and plants that are grown very well from your own hands: from seed that hasn't been corrupted by chemicals or "breeding". Focus. Don't complain or compare. There is no comparison. And if you can't focus on anything but the money, you should remember the old saying that says: "Money doesn't grow on trees." And go chase money. Leaving the actual permaculture to those people who care to do it for the reasons it is best practiced.

OP was measuring success in terms of dollar income.
So were several others here.

While I know working WITH natural systems has (shocker) helped me make more dollars than before, that is not why I keep doing it. Nor, I'd guess, the reason most of us are here, deep down.

Whether emotional, spiritual, religious, logical, whatever, clearly permaculture appeals to most of us here enough that we're really involved. It makes us feel good while not hurting ourselves or anybody.

'The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings.' - Masanobu Fukuoka

Matthew McCoul wrote:OP was measuring success in terms of dollar income.

The way I read it, the larger question he asked was who is really seeing the promised results - and to me it seemed clear he didn't specifically mean monetary. An aspect of that was whether most were subsidising their permaculture attempts with a real job. And whether the efforts that were reported as outstanding successes by someone who heard it from someone else were more hype than substance. And another aspect was the meaning of sustainability, whether someone could provide for themselves or whether they were contributing to the world in sustainable manner. And there were many more aspects beyond that raised as Collin addressed interpretations like yours.

I can see evidence that Paul, Jocelyn and the team are really doing permaculture here on this forum. The rules he imposes, and the clear reasoning behind them. The people he has allowed on his land. The projects he does, with solid photography. But that is one end of the spectrum.

On the other end, I wonder whether there are a lot of people going through the motions. I've read many permaculture blogs, and what I see is people doing it part time in their backyard as a hobby -- not that there's anything wrong with that. And people who do it on a farm, but mostly support their efforts by hosting permaculture courses, advertising them heavily and mostly running their blog as an advertisement -- not that there's anything wrong with that. When you see that person A gave PDCs, and person B went to his PDC and person C went to person B's PDC, and they all run PDCs as businesses in an evergrowing chain, sometimes it feels like a pyramid scheme of sorts -- not that there's anything wrong with that.

As one highlighted but well known example, how sustainable is Geoff Lawton's efforts without the outside resource that comes to learn, be put to work, and the income they provide? It is community, and people are doing something they enjoy and aspire to use to live better, and so on and so on but these are all independent benefits from the main concern. And that main concern is whether without the side-business where a dream is sold as a viable approach to people who want to learn it, would the dream be able to support itself. What level of results would the permaculture techniques he teaches actually produce? But then the question needs to be asked whether the workers and the income coming from selling the dream have provided a base that anyone who doesn't have it will struggle for decades to replicate if ever?

Yes, we might all be seeing benefits of some sort from our personal applications of permaculture. But how often do lauded benefits eventuate when we try the things we've learned about? I see above I am not the only person who has failed to see the promised benefits from hugelkultur. But this isn't about my dry mounds.. it's about claims and promises and a dream that may not be capable of supporting itself taken to the ideal level where we own a demonstration level farm like Geoff.

Apologies if anyone is offended by my thoughts on this. No offense is meant.

does someone know na example of some Project that lives off grid producing almost all of the needed food and energy, for me this is the real permaculture

Yes I have seen permaculture courses advertised as a jumpstart to a new career and also wondered along the same lines as the original poster. Sometimes the word 'permaculture' can have a mystique, having almost religious connotations, like 'if you join this club, everything will be great'. if we break it down, though, the essence of what is taught is a system of design; the utopian dreams follow. Being a 'permaculturist' does not necessarily endow one with any particular skills, either, apart from an ability to design. Basic skills-carpentry, electric work, welding, gardening, machinery maintenance, animal care, etc. all still need to be learned and it can take decades to master these. If you have a skill already and then inform you work with permaculture design, you are likely to come up with something better than how its normally done. If you don't have skills, and go 'do permaculture' you might not get the glorious results you dreamed of. Being a 'permaculturist' does not necessarily endow one with a work ethic realistic to accomplishing goals, either. Probably a successful 'permaculture' business still needs all the elements needed to have a successful 'conventional' business- success requires some combination of intelligence, determination, hard work and opportunity. Permaculture design seems to me to still be largely countercultural, which is a major limit on its saleability, thus the pyramid schemes. Yet all of us who apply it where we are now find that this way of design helps us in meaningful ways. And yet, many of us deeply desire to acheive that Dream, in which ALL of our actions and accumulations are regenerative to the web of LIFE AND give us abundance. We happen to live in a particular world system, and in many ways are completely interdependent with the system as a whole, which is what makes these purist dreams so difficult to realize-- the present planetary context. at a certain point, a rambling philosophical post becomes so long that those following the words with mild interest lose it and stop reading.

@ Gabriel
does your project meet the criteria you mentioned in your post? the pictures look beautiful and definitely the potential is there... and with hundreds of food trees already....

I think that we have to think of transitioning into a more permaculturish world. It's not going to instantly change into utopia. We are gradually creating a better world. Many have changed their super high stressed jobs and moved into ones that are more sustainable, including myself and Paul Wheaton. Many are using their food forests as a sort of retirement plan: I'll get exercise, much more high quality fruit, vegetables, and mushrooms, and maybe meat, as a sort of medicine. I'll connect with others who are doing the same. Together we'll continue to keep our eyes open as we see the changes happen with our help. We set up a neighborhood exchange for fruits and vegetables, and we're teaching other people how to grow food. Many people forage as recreation on the weekends and transition into nature powered recreation. Some people do WOOFing or cooperative work on others' farms. We sprout, ferment, make things and participate in many activities that are fun and better for us and the planet that the corporate model. We ride our bikes more and have more bountiful lives but often with less money, but less need for money. This is permaculture.
John S
PDX OR

Gabriel Guhr wrote:does someone know na example of some Project that lives off grid producing almost all of the needed food and energy, for me this is the real permaculture

I do know (exchanged a few emails with) a guy in Ukraine who gradually abandoned his prestigious software development job in Kiev and moved to remote rural area with intent of being self sufficient.
Not a permie per se, rather, a prepper, but a perpetually self sufficient one. Was successfully doing that for 10 years, married with one child (born several years in the experiment.) Was 30 y.o. when started.

His point was to simplify life, in particular, not to work more than 6-8 hours a day.
For this reason, he kept horses and goats, but no cows (to avoid veterinarian expenses) or pigs (too much work to produce too much meat that is too fat, in his own word); no chicken because hawks were hunting them down, and so on.
Building in traditional log cabin style (easily available wood for building and fuel is an important point in his method).
Heating and cooking using traditional Russian brick stove. Was considering weaving his own clothes but decided it's not worth it.

In addition to that, he was getting decent monetary income giving horse rides. (I think growing food for sale he didn't consider worth the effort, given market conditions.)

A lot of people ridiculed him, but he turned out to be right when civil war broke in Ukraine.
Haven't heard from him in the last year though; perhaps he decided to keep low profile.

John Saltveit wrote:I think that we have to think of transitioning into a more permaculturish world. It's not going to instantly change into utopia. We are gradually creating a better world. Many have changed their super high stressed jobs and moved into ones that are more sustainable, including myself and Paul Wheaton. Many are using their food forests as a sort of retirement plan: I'll get exercise, much more high quality fruit, vegetables, and mushrooms, and maybe meat, as a sort of medicine. I'll connect with others who are doing the same. Together we'll continue to keep our eyes open as we see the changes happen with our help. We set up a neighborhood exchange for fruits and vegetables, and we're teaching other people how to grow food. Many people forage as recreation on the weekends and transition into nature powered recreation. Some people do WOOFing or cooperative work on others' farms. We sprout, ferment, make things and participate in many activities that are fun and better for us and the planet that the corporate model. We ride our bikes more and have more bountiful lives but often with less money, but less need for money. This is permaculture.

Yes, on a personal level, that makes a lot of sense John.

But to me, what I took from Collin's questions was enabling the move to a more permaculturish world. And a good example is the conventional farmers. If farmers are to make the leap, they need to be convinced that the techniques are a viable alternative to conventional ones. And I don't think there are any solid examples where this is the case. All examples I see are either yet to be really viable alternatives, or they are supported by the primary business being teaching and selling permaculture. The sole solid example might have been Sepp Holzer, but even then there have been recent posts that he's disassociating from permaculture, and as mentioned earlier in the thread he was to some degree born on the land using traditional techniques which inherently fit into the permaculture paradigm. So he isn't an example of viably moving from conventional to permaculture, for any farmer.

If there are examples out there, they should be made more easy to find, it can only facilitate the transition. So the question is where are these examples, and if they are out there, which yet needs to be shown, how can they be displayed to make the transition for others, who need to use the proven conventional techniques, easier? And not just examples for farmers, but also for people with home sized gardens/land, who want to have as much certainty of result as they currently do with conventional techniques, before they make the jump.

It sounds like you have made a successful transition John on your own terms. But making it easier for other people, by showing them comparable facts and successes, encourages a faster and easier transition and reduces disgruntled failures, embiggening the spread of permaculture.

Hi Roger,
Examples of farmers: Will Brown, Mark Shepard, Peter Bane, The Farm in Southern Tennessee, Stefan Sobkoioksy (sp? Quebec Permaculture Orchard) John Kitsteiner, Michael Phillips, I could go on and on.

Sharing examples with others is the very idea of permies.com. That's why I'm a staff member here, and I work on other sites as well. I am teaching a bud grafting class tomorrow.

Best idea is to get going and try stuff, ask questions, share your results with others.

Get involved here on permies and in your local area and you'll find lots of people sharing and showing what they do.

Happy Harvesting,
John S
PDX OR

I haven't read every reply, just a few from the first page. I do not deny the OP's point. A lot of it isn't published science and such. My husband has been frustrated with that point because he can't verify anything I say. Myself, I just do and fail or succeed. Someone really should make this more of a science. I hope I can get the local university in on the action.

Ah, a rumble.... Or a witch burning. Cant tell yet.

Let me change the direction. The reason I am into permaculture is......Cuba. Incase you miss the reference....During the "Special Period" in Cuba when the entire population lost an average of 23 pounds....but they kept from mass starvation...buy employing permaculture on mass. Oil being lost from the USSR ment they had to adapt fast or die horribly. My intensions with your daughter was never to be profitable. It was ment to keep me and as many as I can handle from starving to death. I'm such a happy ray of sunshine. This isn't Happy Acres nor do I have any fantasies of any farming making reliable money, including industrial l agriculture. I scower my property, figuring out every hidden food source and figuring out its cycles and how to transform that into calories to survive a winter without a functioning system. I figure I could keep 10 families alive...but don't expect Amish fantasies of Martha Stuart Simple living food porn. The food would suck...but no one would die on my watch.

That's the permaculture I employ.....But its only one tool in the tool shed. Swales or hugelculture aren't very valuable on our property. We have no shortage of water and "Swales" are what happens naturally. The food forest still needs to be managed ....or the alder and choke cherries will kill off the apple trees that cant compete, especially againt the T Rex of trees, conifers, that want to kill and eat them. RARHHH!

So. If we can make 50 bucks at the sunday farmers market and freeze what wasn't bought to get through the winter...that's fantastic because we actually trained ourselves how to trade with locals when our faltering functional system becomes....um....less than functional

Collin, I think your question is wonderful and has stimulated some really worthwhile discussion. I too am very suspicious of some of the claims that are routinely made. In my own case, I work off my property and will until I retire, and do not earn any money from my growing. It has taken five years to really get production going well. But at this point all our fruits and vegetables come off our 0.4 acre property, we grow all our own eggs and some of our meat and dairy, and have wonderful quality of life. The rate-limiting step at this point is my time and energy (my husband is endlessly tolerant but wants nothing to do with garden/yard work.) I could produce twice as much if I had time and if we had a use for it. But could I really earn even a minimal living off it? Nah, short of becoming a famous author😉. I also think that some of the claims made about yield are quite exaggerated, or may represent an ideal year but not an average year.

I think it comes down to what you want out of your life. We are about to put in a large solar array that would take 15 years to pay for itself, but we think it's the right thing to do and part of our quality of life.

I agree that permaculture is a lifestyle choice. While I am just in the learning phase, I have had an herb spiral for years. We do have a young pear and a young apple, the apple had 9 apples on it this year, but I think our local bear got it while we were away for a couple of days. The bear once tore the metal roof off of our chicken coop. Our raised beds near our front door have usually given us plenty of veggies. We have wild blackberries, raspberries, blueberries and elderberries nearby. We plant flowering plants to bring in the pollinators. When we had chickens we would sell, give to family, or donate to a community dinner any excess eggs. Unfortunately, My husband is very ill with lung issues so we needed to rehome our chickens, and last year I broke my hand so we were not able to garden much this year. Past years, out tomato yields were high enough to allow us to can 40 qts as well as dried tomatoes. 40 qts will get us through a NH 7 month long winter. Using our own tomatoes, with our own ground pork or venison makes an awesome pasta sauce. tomatoes in stews and chilies as well helped us get through these long winters. I think the "fun" thing about permaculture is that you can do it your own way. It's not do it this way or you're wrong. It's about experimenting and seeing what works for you and your space. When I lived in Boston, on my postage sized yard, I would tuck a tomato plant or a cucumber, maybe even a zucchini, in between my roses. A few herbs in my pots. Start at the door as they say.

A couple nights ago I read almost every post in this thread, followed several links, watched a video where a woman and a couple were separately interviewed about how much land it would take to grow all of one's own food, etc. I hope I'll be permitted to give a little personal background and ask some challenging questions here.

I've been a full-time homesteader/farmer for several years, so I've run into some permaculture people but I've never gotten very deep into anything calling itself permaculture. My impression of permaculture so far is that permaculture's goals are admirable (and very similar to my own) and that there's a neat willingness in permaculture circles to think outside the box, but there also seem to be some permaculture "thought boxes" -- hugelkultur and swales, while they may have substantial benefits, seem like possible examples -- and I've been suspicious of how proprietary permaculture is, especially when, as I think Paul quoted Mollison as saying, permaculture doesn't have anything new to offer (or something to that effect, if I remember correctly.)

Despite everything I've read in this thread (and linked from this thread) and everything I've heard about permaculture people before coming to this forum, I feel like I still haven't found any examples of "permaculture" farms/homesteads that I find notably impressive in terms of what they've attained by permaculture standards (as I understand them), particularly looking at things from an agricultural perspective, even to the extent I have found such information about farms and homesteads outside permaculture circles.

In another thread Paul talks about a "Wheaton eco scale" where merely mid-level people would grow 90% of their own food, but the way I'd count things (not counting things that weren't at least grown to standards comparable to USDA organic and not counting animal products from animals raised on commodity organic feed), I haven't found a clear summary account of anyone in permaculture circles that would meet that mark. I'm not saying the people aren't there -- I don't know; I'm just saying I haven't found any clear, basic descriptions yet -- but it wouldn't be that hard for someone to describe (or have an article written about them) about what they eat and how independent their food supply is from conventional and even standard USDA organic-type agriculture. For instance, is there anyone in permaculture circles that produces (including wild foraging, etc.) all of his own grain products, all of his own animal feed, makes his own beer from his own barley and hops, presses his own salad oil from oil seeds he grew, leaches the tannins from enough acorns to replace the amount of wheat that normal Americans eat, makes his own fermented sausages without purchased additives (beyond maybe salt), makes his own hard/aged cheese with "homegrown" cultures and rennet, etc.? Or a community of permaculture people that collectively accomplish these things, truly going beyond minimum organic standards in pursuit of permaculture goals? Does anyone even meet the 90% mark counting by calories (and not counting animal products from animals raised on commodity organic feed (or less-than-organic))?

It seems obvious to me that running a farm/homestead that was that diverse would be very labor-intensive compared to highly specialized and mechanized farms (standard monocrops, etc.), so it seems conceivable to me that there's currently enough demand for workshops, speakers, books, etc., that the people that theoretically might be most capable of providing the most impressive farm/homestead examples, particularly in terms of food, would rather spend their time teaching than actually living the permaculture life themselves and doing all the manual labor year after year. On the other hand, I've heard talk about how smart permaculture design can create a farm that achieves permaculture goals without the labor demands that seem obvious to me. But again, I haven't seen any accounts of farms that have been able to redefine labor and input cost per unit of product equations by applying permaculture design principles.

The couple in that one video (embedded in this thread) seemed like they were being highlighted as an outstanding example of permaculture -- and I don't mean to say their homestead wasn't outstanding -- but they admitted they weren't even providing close to 50% of their own calories. Where's the comparable 3 minute video or short written summary of the Wheaton eco scale mid-level permaculturist? Or the higher level permaculture people that go beyond 90% and do so without tractors, combines, and other industrial machinery? Maybe the highest level people don't have time to answer these questions, but surely someone else could give a reasonable summary (or already has) of their operations (someone that has interned on these farms, visited them, read their books, or whatever), or not? Are my perceptions justified? What am I missing?

Hi Folks,

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Willie Smits, showing how permaculture can be successful at large scale under a non-profit model, and Gabe Brown, who implements holistic management grazing, polyculture cropping, and other permie ideas at large scale on his 5000 acre farm. Have you ever been on a 5000 acre farm? One of the large local farmers in my area is one of the top producers for Gerber, the family has multiple X,000 acre farms. Good people. If they implemented some of Gabe Brown's "Keys to building healthy soil," I think they would be "signing the back of the checks, instead of signing the front of the checks" as Gabe says. I'm not sure what his profit is like, but he asserts quite forcefully that implementing these permie-type ideas increased his bottom line.

Sure, these two people are sometimes venerated, like many other successful Permie people. Yet, they are respected precisely because they put in the hard work and developed their system and chose to refine it instead of abandon it when the going was tough 3 years in. That is the sacrifice they chose to make. And here we are, everyone is asking about why we don't have more examples of successful permie people who (for some reason) cannot also be quiet, and less famous, and more real. You see the mistake? These are real people, they are actually successful, they are actually doing permaculture, and they write loads of books to help you get to the same place. I think what the questioner was asking for was "why are there so many examples of permaculture in a state of early pre-success right now, and where are the permie people in the 'middle stages' of success, before their farms really take off?"

The answer to question one is that permaculture is a really really amazing awesome idea, for a long time it spread in the US much slower than other countries, and now that it is spreading faster people are taken by it.

The answer to question two is that permaculture is a system which is difficult to implement, but as soon as it starts to take off, it yields rapid compounding success. Permaculture is on such a curve because it emphasizes long-term success. Therefore, the early adopters will all put in a ton of work in the beginning, and not see much benefit, but if they stick to it and plan and refine and implement and refine, they will be another of the famous Permie success stories. Look, Paul has created this whole Forum to talk about how awesome they are! They. Shall. Not. Escape. The. Spotlight..... Shall. Not. Escape..... Grumble mumble

By the way, a few more success stories;
Curtis Stone is likely the farmer the original questioner was asking about, making six figures on three acres, and I think 60,000 lbs of food. Jean-Martin Fortier is also in this category. Of course I'm not going to debate how "permie" or "no true scotsman" these farmers are, they are doing amazing work! Curtis Stone might be your best bet for the metrics of running a farm. He keeps excellent records, citing record-keeping as integral to his success. I believe his new book has this type of stuff, mostly as a suggestion to implement on all our farms, but you might try asking him.

The Permaculture Voices PV3 event is geared precisely towards the business aspect permaculture. Buy yourself a tickie, and you'll see more successful Permies than you can shake a stick at. http://www.permaculturevoices.com/pv3/

Whoa, Eric Brown.

I don't think permaculture is ready to reorganize the economy, yet. Resources still need to be shuffled about in an efficient manner. This becomes much smaller of a problem if everyone is practicing permaculture on their own land, but that is not going to happen in my lifetime. We can work towards everyone being self-sustainable. However, my current view is that we need to work towards changing agriculture first. This means changing big producers into big permies. I think the broadscale work is amazing, and will sway more people to implement their own 'little' projects if the 'big' projects work out. I think that big projects will be split up into smaller projects, or become cooperative projects between multiple farmers. The increased resource yields from permaculture, and the recursive nature of permaculture systems demand farmer's attention even while it richly rewards it. Therefore, I don't expect a farmer in Canada to produce bananas, or everything he could possibly need. Trade has been necessary for human cultures since the beginning, why would you characterize permaculture as somehow only successful if it can eliminate trade from human endeavors? Why is success measured, for you, by how independent the farmer becomes with permaculture? What kind of permaculture designer implements a (in this case cultural) system thinking that the system is closed, and no parts should be interconnected?

There is a middle ground, Eric, of producing much of one's food but having a few specializations for the sake of trade [aka commerce.]

Not too sure about Paul's scale [often Paul's brainstorming is just ideas rattling around in his head and not necessarily a reflection of permaculture as a whole] but one could literally produce none of their own food and- so long as their career honored the ethics of permaculture and they purchased ethical products [including their food] then they're just as permie as a nearly self-sufficient homesteader who uses ethical methods [aka extremely little or ideally no tillage, grazes but not overgrazes, no chemicals, etc etc etc.]

EDIT: for what it's worth, I'm in the process of building towards running a farm like the one you describe. Step 0 [which has been underway for some time] is developing the skills and building up genetic material [both in the form of plants and breeding stock], Step 1 is finding the right land, which is a work in progress.

In reality, a permaculture cultural system is one that is interconnected, and thrives precisely because of the strong relationships between people. Some of us are Nitrogen Fixers, fertilizing the soil for everyone else. Some of us are dynamic accumulators, we gather ideas and resources to ourselves and then in a flash distribute them to others. Some of us are mushroom mycelia, we connect people and help them keep their relationships healthy. Some people grow wheat between their chestnuts. Some people grow veggies and pigs. Some people breed goats, others buy them and raise them on pasture. In my opinion, the metric of success is the resiliency of the entire system. The current predominant agriculture system is not resilient. And while little resilient homesteads are amazing endeavors, they are almost by definition insular. They are islands among an ocean of shitty farming practices. No, I think you need to change your expectations of what success looks like in a Permaculture system. This is bigger than individual families and hardscrabble homesteading with no inputs and trying to get all the fiber, fuel, and food we are accustomed to from a handful of acres. Permaculture is about abundance, don't force us into a vow of poverty so that we can meet your definition of success. We can save the world, and feed the world doing it. "All the world's problems can be solved in a garden."

Wow! I love having time to read through forums on permies because I always find a thread I’ve never encountered and that sets me thinking. This is one of the kind.
I’m always a bit uneasy to share my thoughts on these very deep and generally very personal topics. We all have our view of what permaculture is, and live our journey in different ways. I’ve occasionally in in my encounters had discussions on permaculture in a general way and sometimes have had to just let the discussion go its way being that someone was always trying to get over my head, telling me his view was the truth. Let me state that I’ll tiptoe in this very intense, over the years, thread, and share my answer.

Does one answer or another to the question posed in the title of this thread have more value compared to others? I think not, we all legitimately have our experience that gives us confidence that someone out there is doing permaculture, or even think no one is really doing permaculture being we may not have yet met the “right” project.
So since I’ve been thinking now and again about this question, and even more, what the hell is permaculture?

I'll share my thoughts on this.

I first started getting involved in permaculture from a farmers view, (future farmers view actually, nearly there, yes I’m one of the many that hope to come back in a few years and share our story of successful market farming based on permaculture design), agricultural view, I’m intimately related to the first coining of the word in Permaculture One: permanent-agriculture.

Then learnt that permaculture, had evolved into permanent-culture over the years, probably from the book Permaculture Two onwards. Had the meaning of the word changed? No, it had grown the importance of the concept had simply evolved into something more inclusive. This was beneficial, fertile evolution. Why? Because permaculture has started to connect different sections of society. Occupying and being applied in new and more complex ways.

You might be thinking, Oh my when do we get to a point… that’s why I try to stay out of these threads, they free my mind. Sorry for this, If you want to understand my view just skip to the last paragraphs.

So today what does really doing permaculture mean? Is it making money from permaculture design? different than making money with permaculture design, which could be the doing, is it market farming? Is it community building? Or is it just redesigning our lives in a way that takes us from impact to association with nature, with Gaia. Is it not a transition?

When I think of who is doing permaculture today if I go through some names of projects there is for sure the Three sisters farm led by Frey and his family and so well described in his book Bioshelter, there is probably even Twin Oaks Community in Virginia that I’d say applies permaculture, but I’m falling back to finding some projects that in doing permaculture we view under the farming lens.

More than growing all our own food maybe doing permaculture means even not growing all our food but growing a local community where the food and all the rest of needed commodities is produced through more paths. Maybe it’s not about completely becoming self-sufficient but about building community. The message we take away from permaculture mimicking natural ecosystems, is to connect, not become an example of completeness.

Three sisters farm builds community, Twin Oaks being a community in itself builds a local community, and so on. Who knows how many there are out there.
Of course when we speak of permaculture we have box thoughts, we as a species of so called thinking beings need in some way throughout our story of certainties, of strong beliefs. For some this very important, for others less. Is it a problem? Until someone doesn’t come and tell me what my beliefs have to be no. To swale or not to swale? I don’t know, it depends, I guess that’s one of my only certainties in permaculture: it depends.

So is doing permaculture today? It depends, there are many different ways of doing permaculture because permaculture is a set of ethics and principles that we can apply in so many different ways.

I’ve always loved two phrases from Permaculture One that sum it up for me (yes wanting to understand what the hell was permaculture I went back and started from the beginning, and discovered a great journey):

“We do not believe that a society can survive if it lacks values, direction and ethics, and thus relinquishes control over its future destiny. This book (Permaculture One) is a contribution to the taking of such control.”
So for me not only that book but my journey is a contribution of taking such control.

And still:

“Permaculture, like a tree, is a holistic system, a synthesis of disciplines translated into real effects. Who can say if the idea or the media potential triggers the form? Does it matter? There are infinite pathways and possibilities, roots and fruits.”
Of course one can think here it goes again Mollison is his one and only guide, no, it’s not the case, really. Sometime, somewhere I don’t recall Mollison put it very clearly go out there and start planting perennials, take action! he summed up some cool concepts with Holmgren, but they don’t have the truth because it’s out there to be read.

We’re all lucky it’s time to get the kids ready for school! Nice sharing my thoughts.

I see permaculture as a spectrum, not as an "on" or "off" proposition. I think one can be more, or less, permacultural. I've never seen any claim that permaculture demands the practitioner to provide every single thing they may want, that they can never buy or trade for anything with anyone. So I'm not sure where that idea came from. I think permaculture can provide all one's needs but only if those needs are modest. In my opinion needs are usually modest, but most of us prefer to live in a way which provides at least some of our wants as well. I doubt I will ever be able to provide all of my needs with permaculture, but I think I am still practicing permaculture on a spectrum somewhere from "just beginning" to "actually doing it!" I am a very very slow learner and struggle every day to make progress. I like to think I can be practicing permaculture even though I have not achieved some ideal of providing all my wants, which, of course, no individual human way of life ever has since we became Homo sapiens sapiens; not being Orangutans, we have always relied on other people for some of our needs and many of our wants.

I guess I would like someone to tell us where the idea that permaculturists have to provide everything for themselves came from. I genuinely want to know, because I have never seen that anywhere except in this thread.