Future former vegan with questions

First, a message to the moderators. If you believe this should be in the vegan forum by all means move it but I suspect the topic would rub them the wrong way.

The short of it, I want to incorporate animals sourced from local farms using Salatin’s methods back into my diet and wanted suggestions from all these former vegans Paul talks about.


The long of it, and yes it is rather long:

Definitions are important. I don’t like calling myself vegan and never have; I eat the way I do because of the research I have read. Often I call myself a dietary vegan as I still wear animal products and in doing so I alienate myself from everyone; omnivores, carnivores, and vegans alike.

You don’t make many friends when the topic of nutrition comes up and you inform them they are doing it wrong and poisoning their system with chemicals by consuming store bought meat, dairy, and eggs, and food-like substances. I am not judgmental but when someone honestly asks my opinion or says something to the effect of “what is wrong with this,” then I will give it and back it up with good reasoning. In the last three years I have advocated simply cooking all your own food from scratch and if consuming milk to make sure you know the cow / goat and the same goes for meat. Simply knowing what goes into your food and avoiding food-like substances is enough for most people to be healthy.
Recently Paul was talking about Oreo and Coke vegans and at first I was slightly offended till I heard him out and realized we are on the same side. The only difference being I classify those vegans as ‘college’ vegans, ie the people who go vegan in college because of ethical reasons and then consume every food like substance known to man along with the chemicals and preservatives to go with them because they were too lazy to do any research on nutrition before making the switch.
Some history might shed some light for those who are already disagreeing with me. I have been a dietary vegan for 12 years now and for 12 years my diet has constantly evolved into what I though was a healthy diet. I started off slow and continued to do research into nutrition learning what to eat and when, and why eating it was good for me. I will admit when I was in HS I wanted to be a vegan to save the animals but by the time I went vegan this thought was not a driving factor.

Currently I don’t eat soy unless it is fermented because of research I have read; the actual research not someone’s opinion on it. I avoid food like substances as much as I can but not all together, my soba noodles would be a good example of this. I try to sprout all the grains I eat and soak all the nuts I consume to avoid phytic acid. I eat a wide variety of fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds and only cook with coconut oil and if I use olive oil it is expeller pressed organic and never heated. I even only drink fluoride free filtered water. I mention this only to show the extent of my current diet and the thought put into it. I always eat good food, if it doesn’t taste good then I probably didn’t make it. Going vegan exposed me to ethnic foods I would have never experienced on the S.A.D. I had grown accustom to.

I do not want to become a former vegan because I feel unhealthy and I believe anyone who has met or known a former vegan would make that argument in seconds to support their own normalcy bias which tells them eating food-like substances and poison daily is normal. I don’t get sick eating the way I do, my recovery time from exercise is typically half of those around me, and I don’t require as much sleep as those around me while maintaining a ton of energy. I do however take a B-complex and D3 pill daily.

Then why switch right? When I was exposed to permaculture I seriously started to think about growing most if not all my food and the rest getting locally. This would mean no coconut oil, less if no avocados, and fewer grains. Truly eating local means you have to eat animals where I live and I am ok with that as long as they are grown in a manner indicative of a healthy product.

Accepting this I went out on a journey to find local producers of pastured meat and eggs to try and reset my system to accept to prepare myself for when I own land in a couple years so eating animals and their products will not be so foreign. (This after more research of course) For 2 months I consumed at least 1 egg a day and for two months my waste products, to put it nicely, were not anywhere near what I am use to. During this time I also spread out the consumption of one 4lb pastured bird of which I still have some left over in my freezer next to my container holding its bones. I assume my gut bacteria cannot handle the animal products.

I mention this to illustrate what I have tried and the response I got to help any former vegan reading understand how my body has received its new diet. I should also mention it only took 4 days of eating vegan again to return my body back to normal and I have not consumed any animal products in 3 months. I should add the only thing I changed in my diet was adding the animal products but clearly I am doing it wrong.

Searching the book of, sometimes right, knowledge – aka google – I found tons of advice for vegetarians but limited advice for vegans or strict vegetarians. I am eager to hear from long-term nutritionally based vegans who are now consuming animal products again as I suspect simply giving up all animal products for a year or two is not the same as giving it up for over a decade.

I want to do this and I want to do it while minimizing the toxic Ick out there. Questions are welcome and if you read this entire post thank you.

Hi Burton:

Kudos for posting this topic. While I'm not vegan (tried it, it didn't agree with me personally), I have been a lacto-ovo vegetarian for 30 years. In the past 6 months, I've been adding fish back into my diet. It's been slow going but my system is adjusting to processing that type of protein. I eat salmon which is not grown around here but wild caught by a local guy who goes to Alaska every year and brings it back.

Food choices are such a personal topic, as you said. And it may be that meat simply does not agree with you. Gary Paul Nabhan has some interesting books on the subject of diet, local foods, genetics, etc. I've not read them all but have ordered his latest book from the library: Food, Genes, and Culture - Eating Right for Your Origins. I've met Gary on several occasions and he is a down to earth, intelligent, inquisitive and gentle person.

Hmmm... I have a friend who's did this a few years back. She did it how ever bc her son kept
Being anaemic and all her attempts to deal with it lead to constipation.

I'll ask her how she dealt with the transistion

Jennifer Wadsworth wrote:Hi Burton:
I've not read them all but have ordered his latest book from the library: Food, Genes, and Culture - Eating Right for Your Origins. I've met Gary on several occasions and he is a down to earth, intelligent, inquisitive and gentle person.

I read the short intro of the book you linked and it might not help as I am a mutt. I have a grandmother who is 95% Navajo, another 99% Irish, a grandfather who has Jewish and German, and I could probably find one or two more groups my genes reflect. As a child I did have to have special milk since I was 'lactose intolerant' but given what I know about raw milk today I doubt that is the case. I understand certain ethnicities benefit from eating closer to their origins but what of the mutts? Short of a genetic test the only thing I could do is watch how my body reacts to what I eat. That stated I ate a SAD for 19 years and it didn't affect my health or waistline as far as I could tell.

My mother is way overweight, has high cholesterol, eats a SAD, acknowledges she might have a wheat allergy as she consumes bread and always says she eats healthy. My dad on the other hand has low cholesterol, and normal blood pressure but eats fast food at least once a day; no joke his doctors are dumbfound. Slightly related a friend of mine has been vegan for a month now, he is 51 having been a self described carnivore before hand, and he is feeling better than he did when he was 19. His arthritis has gone away, he has more energy, he is loosing weight, gets more fulfilling sleep and that is just the short list. It could also just be because he started eating non-food-like substances in greater quantities his 'inflammation' problem went away.

When I do add meat to my diet it will be in very small portions, I will also probably avoid fish because of how much of a bio-accumulator their fat is for the ick we put in their environment.

Transitioning can take a LONG time, longer than you gave it, even if you did have the right gut bacteria available (just in the wrong proportions). If the right gut bacteria are completely absent, you have to get them from somewhere.

Interesting conversation.

My own interest in having a better diet began about 20 years ago, sampling low carb, high carb, macrobiotic, vegetarian, The Zone, vegan, and others. None stuck with us for more than a few months, but they all resulted in gradual changes. 13 years ago I made a life change, shifting to homestead farming and the diet that could be supported by that. Changing a little over the years, our diet now is mostly homegrown or locally produced. Very, very little is store bought ( we buy nuts, organic apples, apple juice, etc that we can't produce ourselves) and zero in prepared foods or anything containing "chemicals" in the ingredients. Admittedly we still occasionally succumb to a bag of potato chips or Greek yogurt. We eat our own eggs, local raw milk, homemade cheese, and local meat.....in relatively small daily quantities. Homegrown grains in small quantities. Larger amounts of veggies and fruits.

Since shifting to a homestead style life and eating predominantly non-store bought, our health has improved dramatically. I have no interest in shifting to vegan, but I avoid commercial meats/dairy/eggs. Now I am in far, far better health than I've ever been. I've become a believer in that you are what you eat.

I would suggest gradual changes to (or from) any diet.
Each food group has its associated bacteria and digestive processes.
Suddenly making a giant change could throw your digestive system way out of balance.

Let each (the dairy, eggs, meats, etc) start repopulating your digestive system at a slow pace, and you should avoid any 'shock' treatments. You don't want a '5-alarm fire', just a slow smouldering blaze until your system gets back to 'normal'.

It took us a million years to evolve as omnivores. Sudden changes to or from our evolved diet can lead to catastrophic imbalances.

John Polk wrote:I would suggest gradual changes to (or from) any diet.

I realize small changes are needed what I am interested in is the order and quantities to use; granted the quantity would have to be adjusted based on response.

Burton - I don't think there's any "one size fits all" answer to this question as there are too many variables. I would suspect that you're just going to have to experiment and see what works for your individual situation and tolerance. It would be really interesting if you kept a journal of this journey so you could share it with others who wanted to do similarly.

Jennifer Wadsworth wrote:It would be really interesting if you kept a journal of this journey so you could share it with others who wanted to do similarly.

Yeah from the response so far it seems like I might be in a good place to be able to write a giblet about this lol

DO IT! I think it would make an interesting read.

This is just a thought, as I have no experience with a vegan diet, but I wonder if broth might be a good starting point. I believe that the proteins in broth to be more easily digested so it might be a good way to start introducing your body to meat.

I am a former vegan. It was in college, and for the sake of avoiding supporting factory farming. I wouldn't have eaten Oreos they aren't vegan! I did eat a lot of rice and bagels, not the healthiest. I also sometimes got those false meat processed foods-ew!


The more I understood about farming and food production and my area (New England) the more I started to think that eating animal products was a responsible choice. I felt that if I was going to eat meat I needed too face the death and disembowelment aspect. I found a farmer to help and learned how to slaughter clean and dress turkeys and chickens. This tool care of my ethics. I felt that if done occasionally (no human should have to slaughter animals every day, it seems to me) and with reference and care, small scale meat production is ok.


I was ok on the vegan diet until I became pregnant and then was ravenous for meat. The first time I ate it I felt terrible and for a while it felt like I had eaten a meal of an undigestable rock. I wasn't gradual about it at all! My gut "got used to it" and I felt better. I'm pretty sure gut bacteria and stomach acid are both part of the equation.

Probiotics might help. There are many types, from the research I've done I prefer slow release capsules with many strains and colony forming units. It sounds like you do your due diligence.

I am an omnivore. Like a bear or a pig, if I can chew it and swallow it, I'll probably eat it. Not everything though. I had a chance to try some durian once, and after getting a good taste of it, I spat it out. Since then, I have discovered that I can swallow durian cake and durian ice cream, so it must be the fresh durian that makes me gag. Other things that almost make me gag, natto, kidneys, chicory, taro leaves, Limburger cheese, they just require the right method of preparation or the right sauce.

I weighed in on this thread because in all my omnivore days, I have never had problems related to my diet. Whenever I have had gastrointestinal problems, I can pretty much trace it to tainted food. I am lucky to have no lactose intolerance, gluten sensitivity, nut or shellfish allergies, or any other reactions that would cause me to have to avoid a class of foods. I think that the diversity of my diet has made it possible for me to tolerate a wide range of foods. It's kind of a chicken-or-egg problem of what came first, having a diverse diet or being able to eat a diverse diet.

It took us a million years to evolve as omnivores. Sudden changes to or from our evolved diet can lead to catastrophic imbalances.

Actually, the primates we evolved from were pretty omnivorous. Apes are occasional meat eaters, when the opportunity presents itself. And they are known to eat a wide variety of plants, some specifically when they have a certain illness. What we have done over a lot of that million years is to start eating cooked food, and so we no longer have the big belly that can digest a lot of roughage like gorillas do. By eating a lot of cooked food, with its lack of living microorganisms on it, we don't have near as much going on in our gut as herbivores do. I like to keep up with what the raw food enthusiasts and fermenters have to say, because they at least have an idea that you are not just ingesting food for yourself, but for the millions and millions of bugs that live in your gut too.

When you eat a wide variety of foods, you end up cultivating a wide variety of gut flora. That wide variety ends up making it possible for you to tolerate an even wider variety of foods. If you eat yogurt and kimchi and blue cheese and natto, some of the critters on those food are going to take up residence in your gut and help break down what's coming down the tube. So my advice to people who want to eat more and different things is "welcome aboard!" Start with some of those foods that I listed above that bring with them some digestive help, in small quantities of course. In due time, if you keep expanding the boundaries of your diet, you should be able to tolerate a wider range of foods, and look forward to new and untried tastes.

John, I agree. Introduce new foods slowly in small quantities and eat a wide range. Right on!

I have two experiences with diet change that taught me lessons. First, traveling abroad. Initially I'd dive in and eat anything and everything. As a result, by day 3 I was having digestive problems that lasted the trip and beyond. A seasoned traveller suggested that all my medications really weren't necessary for traveling (a doctor prescribed something for each raging symptom) and that I should eat new foods in nibbles here and there. Before long my body was dealing with traveling food much better. Since then the problems I've experienced have been due to either giardia, h pylori, or rancid food. New foods do just fine. My gut now can handle just about anything. I probably have some interesting neighborhoods of bacteria in my gut and quite an assortment.

The second incident was an attempt to "eat healthy" and add fiber to my diet. Being rather uniformed about such things, I quite suddenly ate meals loaded with fiber. Within a few hours my gut went into overtime, causing me much distress for hours. Surviving that experience, I avoided extra fiber for years. Eventually I wised up and gradually introduced various fiber sources. I was much more successful and comfortable the second try around.

Hi, Burton,
I applaud your open-minded approach to your diet - it is refreshing to hear how you acknowledge the realities of local eating where you live!
I am not a vegan, but am very interested in diet/nutrition and digestion. I would echo those who suggest starting gradually, and I would also suggest starting with properly made bone broths. Eggs are notoriously difficult to digest (especially the whites, they are one of the last foods introduced to a new baby's delicate system). I'd also echo the idea of lacto-fermented veggies along with any animal foods, to help supply enzymes. It does take your body quite a while to produce the necessary bile and stomach acid to digest animal fats and proteins. If you are accustomed to coconut oil, perhaps local ghee would be another food to try? It has all the saturated fat, without the potentially troublesome casein in butter.
If you're up for some reading, you might check out GAPSdiet.com. It is actually all about healing damaged guts, but the recommendations for gradually introducing broth/fermented foods/animal products and for helping your body produce the things it needs to digest them are quite good.

This is from Mark's Daily Apple, a reputable "paleo" website (that deals more with health, less with sustainability), but still has some good suggestions:

"...here’s a modest proposal for easing back into efficient meat digestion:

Start with good gut bacteria. Incorporate fermented foods, and go with a probiotic supplement for at least a few weeks before and after starting meat again. A healthy gut environment sets the stage for optimum digestion (among other benefits of course).
If you’ve had digestive issues with meat before, try broth, particularly bone broth, for the first week. It’s good nutrition, and it might be easier to handle. Continue broth until you’re ready to move on to solid meat.
Eat meat or fish alone, and don’t eat again for a few hours. (Be sure to eat it earlier in the day rather than at night.) Allow plenty of time for digestion and stomach emptying if you want to gauge how it will make you feel.
Use a marinade that contains an acid like vinegar or a natural meat tenderizer like the bromelain in pineapple.
If you experience ongoing problems, try a short-term course of HCL or enzyme supplement."


Read more: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-eat-meat-transitioning-away-from-vegetarianism/#ixzz2p0MYraQb

Best of luck!

You ate your chicken backwards. Bone broth... It is a way to get the animal product nutrition and protein gently into a system that isn't prepared for it. If I were you, I wouldn't try meat at all initially. Instead, a small daily portion of bone broth made from whatever humane and environmentally sound source you can find. The way I understand it, plants products require a more alkaline stomach environment to digest, and animal protein requires a more acidic environment. If, after being vegan for over a decade, your digestive system has kicked into purely alkaline gear, it may be that you need to supplement your acid while your system transitions. Maybe spike your broth with apple cider vinegar or lemon juice. Drink the broth in isolation(without plant products that initiate alkaline conditions). Wait a few hours before eating plant material. When you find that you tolerate the broth, I'd move on to small portions of meat with broth.

Someone mentioned appropriate bacteria and enzymes needed for digesting any particular foodstuff... Both bacteria and enzymes are greatly reduced in cooked food. You *might* try raw meat in tiny amounts at some point, probably only after you find that bone broth is tolerated. Maybe flash cooked, mostly raw meat, such as in Pho... Basically just warmed in broth. Or, on the topic of a source of appropriate bacteria for digesting meat... You might share an icecream cone with a dog. You know, swapping germs with a dedicated carnivore... Of course it would have to be a much loved raw-fed, ethical foodie dog. Hard to find. I always wonder at the folks that preach health food and feed Fido Kibble and Bits. I digress... I think that supping or upping stomach acid will be important, as well as colonizing your system with the appropriate microbes. Another route might be traditionally fermented veggies as condiments... Kimchi, kraut... Acids with enzymes and bacteria.

Sorry if i end up repeating what others have said,

but it sounds to me like you have found a diet that fits you, maybe it won't always fit you, but the natural healing systems i have studied all recommend a vegan diet.The idea that you can't grow your own food might be applicable if you were an eskimo, but there are other foods for cold climates, especially nuts and dried fruits that are very effective at maintaining heat and health,

There is going to be a transition phase for all of us, going from eating store bought food to home grown local, if the world collapses tomorrow, and we start to get real hungry/ deficient, the transition to eating meat will be easy ( i say meat because that is far more natural than milk and eggs) we will get hungry, it will smell good, our bodies will make the enzymes they need rather quickly, less than a couple weeks, start slow and easy and your body will adapt, eat lots of fiber.

Of course if we start asap, it's quite likely we can organize a system that will not only feed us vegan food, but some of our neighbors as well, and maybe your land will grow trees, theirs will grow rice, there are so many opportunities for us to work together locally, and it doesn't have to be everyone producing everything, people have been cooperating and specializing since before the industrial revolution.

I've been vegan for 30 years, if i do get so hungry i either eat meat or die, i will eat meat, but who knows what will happen along the way, maybe i'll start to produce an enzyme that turns my body into a solar energy harvesting machine (the difference between chlorophyl and hemoglobin is one atom) that produces everything i need from water and air and sunlight, maybe my vibrational level will shift , that is the whole idea of the "experiment" with being vegan, although to my way of thinking eating meat is the experiment , it is failing,, we have become insensitive and anxious or combative and vegans are just finding their way back to their true nature- sure, eating healthy food (whatever it might be) is going to create better health than the alternative slop, but eating healthy vegan food is still to my way of thinking the best way to go-- Helen Athowe has lots of experience with organic vegan farming, and i think the reason animal permaculture seems to work so much better is simply because more meat eaters are playing with it. As more and more vegans start to play with it, they could easily establish systems with even higher nutrition and even less work-- or at least that's what i'm shooting for. what permaculture system do you know of that grows spirulina? but people are growing spirulina, how might that fit into a permaculture design, how about nutritional yeast (to replace the b complex vitamins?) what other superfoods are there that we might grow? What ferments or fungus or weeds???

if you want to eat meat, eat meat, if you really don't want to eat meat, find another way, the axiom that the more restrictions you place on a design, the better and more creative it becomes would seem to fit here. and when you find alternatives to animals in the systems, share your results.

And i will say this, although i am not vegan because of animal rights or sympathy with their emotions, Bill talks about the idea that when people set themselves up as masters of other people, they not only enslave the other people, but they enslave themselves as well, but because of the time and culture he was born into he was not able to extend that principle to the animals that we enslave to our needs, without thinking about morality or animal rights, we become slaves to the system where we have to keep and look after animals.

John Elliott wrote:I am an omnivore. Like a bear or a pig, if I can chew it and swallow it, I'll probably eat it. Not everything though. I had a chance to try some durian once, and after getting a good taste of it, I spat it out. Since then, I have discovered that I can swallow durian cake and durian ice cream, so it must be the fresh durian that makes me gag. Other things that almost make me gag, natto, kidneys, chicory, taro leaves, Limburger cheese, they just require the right method of preparation or the right sauce.

I weighed in on this thread because in all my omnivore days, I have never had problems related to my diet. Whenever I have had gastrointestinal problems, I can pretty much trace it to tainted food. I am lucky to have no lactose intolerance, gluten sensitivity, nut or shellfish allergies, or any other reactions that would cause me to have to avoid a class of foods. I think that the diversity of my diet has made it possible for me to tolerate a wide range of foods. It's kind of a chicken-or-egg problem of what came first, having a diverse diet or being able to eat a diverse diet.

It took us a million years to evolve as omnivores. Sudden changes to or from our evolved diet can lead to catastrophic imbalances.

Actually, the primates we evolved from were pretty omnivorous. Apes are occasional meat eaters, when the opportunity presents itself. And they are known to eat a wide variety of plants, some specifically when they have a certain illness. What we have done over a lot of that million years is to start eating cooked food, and so we no longer have the big belly that can digest a lot of roughage like gorillas do. By eating a lot of cooked food, with its lack of living microorganisms on it, we don't have near as much going on in our gut as herbivores do. I like to keep up with what the raw food enthusiasts and fermenters have to say, because they at least have an idea that you are not just ingesting food for yourself, but for the millions and millions of bugs that live in your gut too.

When you eat a wide variety of foods, you end up cultivating a wide variety of gut flora. That wide variety ends up making it possible for you to tolerate an even wider variety of foods. If you eat yogurt and kimchi and blue cheese and natto, some of the critters on those food are going to take up residence in your gut and help break down what's coming down the tube. So my advice to people who want to eat more and different things is "welcome aboard!" Start with some of those foods that I listed above that bring with them some digestive help, in small quantities of course. In due time, if you keep expanding the boundaries of your diet, you should be able to tolerate a wider range of foods, and look forward to new and untried tastes.

John, I just wanted to add that "omnivores" are by definition "opportunists--eating whatever is readily available. For the most part that means eating a wide variety of both animal and plant foods, but in extreme cases, it can mean eating a purely animal OR plant diet. Enuit people are a perfect example of an ethnic group dependent (historically) entirely upon meat. In an environment lacking plants (as the far north almost always is), everything is carnivorous and the biggest thing with teeth eats whatever is smaller and slower. However, in areas lush with plant life, it is far easier to be a vegan or vegetarian because that is what is available. My point is that all diets are natural and normal when approached as an integral part of the eco-system in which an individual lives (or at least they were when we lived as and where our ancestors did--I'm not sure, in our multi-cultural societies and in a world where every place is merely a plane flight away, that it still holds true).

Given, our evolutionary proclivities toward food, what we eat in today's world comes down almost entirely to choice. For me, health is important in making those choices, but ethics (which includes a deep respect and love for non-human living creatures) is MORE important. Therefore, I choose to remain an ovo-lacto vegetarian with about 90% vegan leanings. And though I wish, for the animal's sakes, that everyone eschewed meat, I respect the individual's right to choose (so long as it is thoughtful and responsible). What I cannot abide is the gluttony and sheer waste I see all around me. The average American stuffs every conceivable food (or more often "psuedo-food") product into his/her mouth on an almost continuous basis. If there is a thought process behind that at all, it must be on the lines of "let's see how much I can cram into my mouth before I throw up". That is both intrinsically and ethically wrong, in my opinion.

@ Deb: why do you view eating lacto-ovo more ethical? I personally think that holding animals constantly in captivity (for their production of eggs/milk) is not necessary better than to raise animals to be slaughtered. It's the quality of life they live that counts, in my personal opinion. If you are kept constantly pregnant, as a breeding machine, I don't think it's better, in a way I rather eat meat from an animal that has had a relatively good life than an sort of organic dairy. What about the emotional turmoil of taking away the baby from the mom... I've heard stories of crying, screaming animals wanting their baby back. Btw, I am neither a vegetarian or a vegan.

likewise, i worked on a dairy farm briefly, the tormented cries of babies separated from their moms, and moms separated from their babies. to this day i can't help looking into a cows eyes and reading her mind--they think we're perverts, but are resigned to their captivity (yeah, yeah, i know that's just my own projection)

and if you keep the process going by buying dairy then half the babies (at least) are going to be slaughtered anyway. commercial operations can't keep non productive animals around

I knew a couple who decided they were going to keep a dairy cow on a small ethical operation, bought a bull for their own stud, but the whole thing was too time consuming, you think it's hard finding a home for a kitten, try and find a home for an old bull that is past his prime.

geoff lawton keeps dairy animals and his approach is probably a better lifestyle while they are alive, but he eats meat and "harvests" animals-- I'm not saying it's bad to eat meat or dairy or anything else, just be really conscious of the actual repercussions of your actions

In some respect when we rigorously apply that consciousness, no one living in this culture is truly nonviolent, even the peta people can't rescue an animal from the dead pile without the death and destruction of other organisms along the way. We all just choose the niche where we are comfortable and evolve as we evolve.

Keira Oakley wrote:@ Deb: why do you view eating lacto-ovo more ethical? I personally think that holding animals constantly in captivity (for their production of eggs/milk) is not necessary better than to raise animals to be slaughtered. It's the quality of life they live that counts, in my personal opinion. If you are kept constantly pregnant, as a breeding machine, I don't think it's better, in a way I rather eat meat from an animal that has had a relatively good life than an sort of organic dairy. What about the emotional turmoil of taking away the baby from the mom... I've heard stories of crying, screaming animals wanting their baby back. Btw, I am neither a vegetarian or a vegan.

bob day wrote:likewise, i worked on a dairy farm briefly, the tormented cries of babies separated from their moms, and moms separated from their babies. to this day i can't help looking into a cows eyes and reading her mind--they think we're perverts, but are resigned to their captivity (yeah, yeah, i know that's just my own projection)

and if you keep the process going by buying dairy then half the babies (at least) are going to be slaughtered anyway. commercial operations can't keep non productive animals around

I knew a couple who decided they were going to keep a dairy cow on a small ethical operation, bought a bull for their own stud, but the whole thing was too time consuming, you think it's hard finding a home for a kitten, try and find a home for an old bull that is past his prime.

geoff lawton keeps dairy animals and his approach is probably a better lifestyle while they are alive, but he eats meat and "harvests" animals-- I'm not saying it's bad to eat meat or dairy or anything else, just be really conscious of the actual repercussions of your actions

In some respect when we rigorously apply that consciousness, no one living in this culture is truly nonviolent, even the peta people can't rescue an animal from the dead pile without the death and destruction of other organisms along the way. We all just choose the niche where we are comfortable and evolve as we evolve.

Keira and Bob,
You are both absolutely right about dairy not being much better (and potentially worse) than meat-eating. I constantly feel guilty about choosing to eat dairy products--though I go out of my way to at least try to buy dairy products from farms that ethically raise their animals. This has been a sore point for years and has led me to reduce dairy to almost nothing in my diet at this point. I went 100% vegan for awhile, but found I missed cheese too much. (Shame on me!!!) So, I have been experimenting with making fake cheeses using nutritional yeast, nuts and soy (etc.) So far I have come up with quite a few "interesting" concoctions, but nothing that really tastes like cheese. Still... I am working on it, and in any case, hope to get over my dairy cravings eventually. I really can't take the guilt and hate feeling like such a hypocrite. As for eggs--I don't feel guilty about those at all because we raise our own chickens and give them the most natural and free life possible. We never kill any of them (even the roosters--including a couple of very annoying little boogers who pester the hens constantly) and they have the run of our entire place (75 acres next to national forest). Besides, I don't really like eggs that much and use those we get mostly for our dogs. I actually prefer tempeh or tofu for breakfast egg-based dishes and use applesauce or bananas as a binder in baked goods. All of our chickens are really old (in their mid-late teens at this point) and not laying as much as in their younger days. We plan to continue caring for them as they age, and let them live out their natural lives, but will not be getting more, especially since our dogs are ageing as well and we probably will not have any animals within about 5 years.

Anyway, yes, I know that the wholesome image dairy shows to the world has a lot of horrible, nasty secrets. I am aware and trying hard to change. Thank you for reminding me and telling others--it really is a point everyone who loves animals should think about long and hard.

my personal weakness is chocolate, bananas and almond milk, frozen in smoothies

I don't know how big the greenhouse is going to have to be to feed my addiction, but it might be cheaper to move to south america.

then again, maybe at some point i'll just grow out of it

I haven't looked at the disease studies on chocolate, and am not inclined to -yet, maybe tomorrow

bob day wrote:my personal weakness is chocolate, bananas and almond milk, frozen in smoothies

I don't know how big the greenhouse is going to have to be to feed my addiction, but it might be cheaper to move to south america.

then again, maybe at some point i'll just grow out of it

I haven't looked at the disease studies on chocolate, and am not inclined to -yet, maybe tomorrow

I am also a chocoholic, though not so much as when I was younger. In fact, I used to begin every reducing diet (back when I actually cared if I gained an ounce) by eating a huge bag of chocolate chips. My reasoning was that if I made myself sick with chocolate (which I did) before the diet, then I could withstand the cravings during the diet and not cheat. Believe it or not, that strategy works!

As for a greenhouse--I don't know what zone you are in, but there are at least a couple of banana varieties that are hardy to zone 5, outside the greenhouse. Here is a brief description of the two most hardy... http://www.manchestergardenclub.com/rick/Tropicals/Tropicals.htm although the banana fruits are said to be inedible in Musa basjoo, I would try them anyway. Sometimes certain people think a fruit is awful while others like it. And if that doesn't work for you, I would suggest Pawpaws (Asimina triloba). A lot of people compare them favorably with bananas and custard, although I personally don't think the banana flavor is overwhelming. Definitely more of the custard. They grow all over here (zone 6b/7a) in the wild, but if you should need to buy any, this place looks promising... http://www.justfruitsandexotics.com/Pawpaw.htm. They have lots of other fruit and nut trees as well. Who knows, maybe you can find almonds and a cocoa tree too, and you could have your smoothies without worrying about pesticides. Worth a try and cheaper than a greenhouse.

i'm close to edible landscaping, went on the fruit tour this fall and got some paw paw fruit and seeds from varieties they grow there, also harvested some wild ones from nearby--the cultivars win hands down, better taste fewer seeds, definitely a big part of the coming food forest and tree growing swales.

i've heard the wild cherry trees growing around here may take grafts of almonds but it seems too good to be true, i have a little more research to do on that

seems there should be an undiscovered weed or group of weeds nearby that combined would do the same thing as chocolate

but on the upside, i do enjoy apples and pears and cherries and, ...

so i guess if tshtf i will still have a pretty good life--even without chocolate

Hi bob day, since you mention spirulina, do you know someone who has live spirulina and would be so kind to share? I'm asking for health reasons. Already got aquarium, nutrients and iron solution. Look forward to your relly. I pay all expenses you got nothing to lose.

Hi,

Yes, i'm interested also in finding a live culture once i get the appropriate stuff together to maintain a good culture

I saw there are some videos on utube about growing it, and i'm guessing there are places you can find to buy it, and it may be that a little more knowledge might translate into growing some local alternative that is more sustainable (and edible) algae grows down in my creek and learning a little algae taxonomy will probably be next in my personal learning curve, but i get that some algaes are toxic, so as always a little care needs to be exercised.

Might be that a water supply tank could double as an algae harvesting system under the right conditions, just some random thoughts on the whole issue,

But the short answer is sorry, i haven't started to grow that yet, If/ when i find a supplier i'll post back here, but that's not high on my priorities right now, garden seeds and water main frame are next on my list

Yes, other dangerous organisms can grow there,that's true... but people are smart... what did they notice? They noticed that spirulina can grow in a wide range of pH while other organisms can't... so by increasing the pH all the way up to 10 or 11 spirulina lives and everything else dies... smart move huh? And even if Chlorella starts developing Spirulina floats to the surface and blocks sunlight and presto... totally safe.

But you are not focusing on that, right? Garden seeds are your focus... in that case might I entice you to look under the growies >>plants section for a topic titled "Free and Fresh Summer Seeds" and see if there is anything you would like from that list of hard to find seeds? Of course, things like cucumbers, melons, watermelons, beans, corn, potatoes, peppers, onions, garlic and such are excluded from that list since they are super easy to find in most places.

Sure, i'll check that out when i get some time

thanks for that tip on ph and spirulina, good to know