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rose macaskie
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Quranista has asked for a spainish book list of books you can buy on permaculture, as she lives in Santo Domingo and i thought it would be as well to write one here on a public page as it might be usefull for others.

     I would like to say i once spent five days in Jamaica and one thing i noticed was how expensive the few books they sold were we have a lot of cheap english books and gardening ones here in madrid you would have thought it was possible to have cheaper books in jamaica.  The english classics can be got very cheaply in Madrid and so can some glossy gardening books too and other gardening books and agricultural ones are pretty expensive as technical books usually are.

Another thing i noticed was when we were taken to a pretty village with caves in it, that there were no post cards to sell to the tourists. I am sure someone could make money selling post cards to tourists or helping the village to have a postcard business.

    The hotel creamed of all the profits and did not want us to do anything they did not organise so that all the money we spent in Jamaica would go to the hotel except the wages they paid and they tried to frighten us into not adventuring out alone. It was Hotel Rui.
    I have read of this behavior  as normal in other hotel chains too. It is a way of exploiting countries were workers are not expensive, you can start a hotel and get all the profits which are the bigger because you dont have big wages to pay. It also means the hotels are cheap.  I went in hurricane season.
      I have thought that when the record company did not pay Bob Marley properly they did not only mess him up, they also messed up jamaica and should pay a fine to the island.

 The books i list are expensive but they will serve for the rich or for pepole who have public libraries or agricultural  clubs, cooperatives or something of the sort. agri rose macaskie.
     
 
rose macaskie
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I hope Paul wheaton does not mind me giving a book list in Spainish. Quranista asked me to give one but she asked for a private one.
    I will give an on line article first because it is not too long and it is absoloutely free.
It is about how plants enrich the desert in Chile and though it does not talk of agriculture, it describes chaparral, it establishes the reasons plants are good for the soil explaining why the desert plants enrich the soil around them.

      Primero doy un articulo de la red, porque me encanta y no hace falta pagar lo y esta escrito por un Chileño no un Europeo.
       Aunque no habla de agricultura, sino de plantas del deserto en Chile, se trata de como esos mejoran la tierra a su alrededor, asi estableciendo los bases de parte del idea de permaculturistas, "como mejorar las tierras degradados con cubetura vegetal"
     Te deja con una idea mejor de ls importancía de los raices de los plantas porque describe como los raices profundos alimenta con agua los raices mas superficiales en un sequia, manteniendo asi la tierra mas humida y de los varios maneras en que las plantas hacen que el suelo tienen mas nutrientes para plantas, haciendo que sea menos yermo, mas fertil.
  Importancia de los arbustos en los ecosistemas semiáridos de Chile  por Julio R. Gutierrez y Fransisco A Squeo. Departemento de Biologia,Universidad de la serena, Castille 599, la sirena, Chile , Cerntro de Estudios Avazados en Zonas Áridas. (CEAZA).

  Acabo de buscar lo y se encuentra facil  escribiendo, todo el titulo en el lugar dado para ello en google y dando a buscar sale como el primero articulo de los que aparecen  entonces. Importancia de los arbustos en los ecosistemas semiáridos de Chile .
 
rose macaskie
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  Tengo el nombre de otro articulo de la red que toca las temas tratado por permaculturistas que es muy intersante. se trata del cuan danino pueden ser los herbicidas y pesticidas y la monocultura de grandes impresas y como quita el pan de la boca de la gente de regiones rurales.
      Como el permacultura se base, en parte, en un gran preocupacion por cuan peligrosos productos chimicos agricolares  pueden ser y como es possible ganar dinero y sobrevivir incluso mejor sin ellos me parece que es  un articulo que tiene un lugar aqui.
  No tengo muchos articulos del internet en español que tratan temas relacionados con el permacultura pero las buscare.

Las patas cortas de la mentira forestal. de algo que se llama ECOLOGIA SOCIAL. 
 
rose macaskie
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Propongo este libro primero, porque no es muy caro y cubre todos los temas casi de permacultura aunque no pretende ser de este disciplina.

     El libro cubre todos los temas  desde terrazas y los principos que goviernan construyer "berms y swales" para aumentar el parovecho que asacaas del agua eso es ono de las temas de permaculture.
     El mover la tierra para mejorar el drenaje or el absorption de agua por la tierra, canales como presas de agua llamado camelones que corren por el mismo altura alrededor o a lo largo de pendeintes por todo su recorrido en vez de correr colina abajo, asi mantenido el agua  en el canal para que el agua del canal solo sale de ella y pasa al canal mas abajo cuando rebasar el borde del canal, un camelon hecho para sostener agua no para llevar la a otro lugar,  para que el agua cala en la tierra en vez de correr hacia el rio que lo llevará al mar. La canal llamado camellón hecho para mantener el agua en el lugar por mas tiempo es a veces mas ancho y plano que un canal de drenaje si el pendiente lo permite, si el pendiente es muy impiñado no se puede tener camelones  anchos para que el agua penetra en un superficie de tierra mas amplia.
     Si la agua de lluvia cala en la tierra en vez de escurrir por el superficie de ella,  la terra que recibe la lluvia quedara mas mojado por mas tiempo y tardara mucho en llegar al mar, pasará primero a aquiferos subterranos y puede que resultará utile para pueblos rio abajo cuando sale en manatiales o que lo pueden sacar de pozos.

    Este parte de agricultura se trata de como  organizar, drenaje o el cosecho de la lluvia, segun cual es mas utile para el lugar.

    En la India, han vuelto a una viejo manera  de cosechar la lluvia, constuyendo una pared larga que cruza el terreno con un leve inclination, asi atrapando el agua en el terreno tanto por el uso del dueno de la tierra o el pueblo mientras dura elepoca de lluvias como porque asi entra en la tierra.  Con volver a este costumbre los aguas subterraños han llenado de nuevo y agua vuelve a brotar de la tierra en manantials que secaron hace mucho por culpa de los pozos Ingleses que sacaron agua del la tierra pero no mejoraban el absorbcion de la lluvia por la tierra, asi sus pozos combinado con lel hecho de que los viejos maneras de recolectar agua cayeron en desuso, prejudicaron los lugareños mas de lo que ayudaron a lo largo.
  Pasa a menduo que lo que en un momento parece un buen idea mas tarde pierde su utilidad or resulta habersido una idea mala.

   Parece que el agua penetra mal cuando llueve y si puedes capturar lo, hacer que no se discurre por las pendientes, yendo directamente a los rios, el agua del lluvia penetrará mucho mejor en la tierra, algo importante en lugares secos y de tierras que absorben mal el agua.
  Tambien si la luvia baja directamente al rio cuando llueve, escurriendo por encima de la tierra, todo el agua se bajara directamente al rio de golpe y solo  llenará el rio por un dia o dos y si hay mucho lluvia  bajará tal cantidad de agua el dia del tormenta o lluvia o el dia siguente que podrá causar inundaciones rio abajo, mientras si el agua del lluvia es absorbido por la tierra, el agua pasará por la tierra y saldra de ella mas abajo  gota a gota, se mantendra un flujo continuo en los rios por semanas, cosa que es mejor para los paises.
   La penetracion del agua en la tierra, en vez de sus paso por encima de la tierra, tambien hace que el agua puede a veces penetra la tierra a tal profundidad que puede rellena reservas debajo del suelo, eso es muy bueno para el pais, crea un reserva de agua que puede ser usado en tiempos secos.
    Si puedes hacer que el agua penetra la tierra en vez de escurrir por ella, manteniendole  en lo alto, en camelones or estanques o con su paso cerrado por diques a veces el resultado es manatiales mas abajo en le pendiente. Eso pasa cuando has logrado que tal cantidad de agua penetra en la tierra que todo la colina queda saturado y el agua empieza a manar de la tierra.   
    El arte de hace camelones se ve en el video de geoff lawton de youtube, llamado permacultura water harvesting que, como es una charla corto accompañada por dibujos animados del agua penetrando la tierra, es facil de entender, si acabas de leer eso que es un descripcion de lo que el video illustar sin entender lo que dice Geoff Lawton .

       El  excavar la tierra para cambiar su perfil para que captar y retiene el agua del lluvia hacer charcos y canales, puede causar aludes si esta hecho por una person incauta con poco notion de la tierra, es algo que si puedes buscar consejos sobre como se hace es mejor hacer lo, perritos agricolares tienen que entender este tema .

      El Captacion del agua  se explica en los secciones  del libro sobre terrazas.
       Tambien son muy utiles los capitulos del libro que sobre como metodos de ingeneros agricolares para frenar el erosion tremenda y siempre creciente  con paredes y vayas y plantas, en  lugares que han sufrido e de soccavones.



       El libro tambien explica bien como bosques y el materia organica de pastizales sembrados con treboles, hierba y algunos arbustos frutales como la grosella, puede mejorar suelos y proporcionando materia organica a los suelos y alimento a la fauna.
    Explica Los maneras optimos de poner en practica el uso de plantas para mejorar suelos , la manera optimo de mejorar suelos que han sido estropeados segun el libro  son con muy poco pression ganadera o limpieza de exploitaciones maderiferas, si eso es un possiblidad y si no lo sea, como tener un recuperacion de suelos mas lento y ganar un poco de dinero a la vez, si la exploitation de al tierra es imprescindible.
      la permacultura accelera el processo de mejoraria de suelos estropeados, plantando arboles especiales que aumentan el nitrogen en la tierra y poniendo materia organica que buscan fuera del las fincas, por ejemplo usando papel or carton heno o paja de otros fincas al principio cuando hay poco crecimiento de plantas propios para proporcionar materia organica. ademas de los las hojas de sus propios plantas para mejorar sus suelos.  trambien incluye  y incluyendo unos pocos animales como patos o gallinas para fertilizar mientras comen la tierra.
El libro explicar como slavar tus pastos y tierra de sobre pastoreo que estropea los suelos, Dice que si el año es malo y hay pocos pastos hay que vender unos cabezas de ganado antes de dejarles estropea los pastos comiendolas demasiado cortos para poder al menos tener buenos pastos el año que viene. Asi tendras mas pastos a lo largo auque pasas mal a corto plaza.
     Todos los propuestas de este libro estan  cercanisimo al los de agricutura organica o iguales, auque no se presenta como un libro de esos disciplinas sino uno de agricultura normal.

        No se si sigue editandose, lo compre hace unos años, mi edition es del año 1994. el prologue es de Hugh Hammond Bennett, un estadounidense que paso todo su vida peleando para salvar suelos Estadounidenses y para cambiar los leyes sobre la tierra de de este pais.
      Espero que no le importa a nadie que se un libro de Norte America. Los españoles son muy orgullosas y a mucho de llos no les gustan leer libros de otros paises.
      Es el libro del tema mas comprensivo de los que conozco y probablemente el mas barato, mi primer libro de agricultura  y por raro que pareca, como esta escrito por el departemento de agricultura, es tremendamente lleno de principios de agricultura organicos o de permacultura. Si menciona cosas menos correctos, es con pesar .

  Esta escrito para peritos agricolares. Me parece que uno de las trabajos  de permacultura es poner todo los conocimientos del peritos agriculares, que tratan del buena practica agricolar y que no se tratan del uso de quimicos, al alcanze del hombre de la calle.

Es facil de leer, un poco largo, muy detallado, muy idealistico en partes,solo he leido las partes que mas me interesa.
 
manuel de Conservacion de Suelos.  servicios de conservacon de suelos .
departamento de Agricultura de los estados unidos de America.
. UTEHA NORIEGA EDITORES   Mejico . España . Venezuela . Columbia
 
rose macaskie
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      Un libro permaculturista de verdad que esta publicado en Español, es-:
El Horticultor Autosuficiente. Gui practico ilustrada para la vida en le campo, por Jon Seymour.
various de sus libros estan publicados en Español.
  su libros tratan de como ser autosuficiente aen un finca pequeño.
      Este libro habla del bancal alto para plantar plantas y verduaras y como hacerlos y porque son utiles, algo similar al hugglekultura Aleman que es un tema de Paul Wheaton sus pèrmacultura forums, en que este esta escrito.
      Invernaderos
      Si buscas en el internet secmol solar energy Ladakh, veras unos ejemplos de invernaderos que son baratos y caseros y incluso bonitos de plasticos en postes or usando la pared del casa, que da al sur, como parte trasero de un invernadero de plasticos, este lugar puede dar ideas baratos a españo hablantes que viven en sitios montañosos. Ladakh is high in the Himalayas of  Pakistan.
    Vallas que protegen del viento.
   Frutos y verduras y los necesidades de cada planta de esos y como almacenar los, secarlos, embotellarlos, hacer mermaladas, alcohol , vinos etc. incluso como construyir secadores solares y do otros classes.
       Como cuidar galllinas y patos etc y como constuir gallineros y como prepararles por la mesa.
     El permaculturista bill mollison senaliza que animales comen los productos del huerto que sobran por ejemplo puedes tener demasiado frotos en otono, si las das a un animal de algun modo te las almazena y tu aprovechas de ellos cuando le comes . He sido un vegetariano por años y espero volver a ello, asi que es con alguna duda que escribo eso.  rose macaskie.     

   Hay otro libro suyo que habla de como cuidar animales mas grandes, tambien en Español .
Esos libros cuestan 19 euros 95 centimos en España estan llenos de information. 
  la libraria aqui tuve muchos libros de agricultura organica .   
   
 
rose macaskie
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  otro libro publicado en Español que incluye muchs emas relacionados con l apermacultura La Sabiduria del Jardinero. de Charile Ryrie.   
Aparte de explicar las cosas que todo clases de jardinero debe saber como cuando plantar las semillas y como collectionar los y como crecer los y hacer compost este libro cuenta cosas que son parte de permacultura como sobre pajote o colchas, cosaa que pones el¡nncima de la tierra en jardinerria moderno para proteger la.
  las colchas or pajote se ponen para frenar el evaporation de la agua en la tierra tapandola y hacer que la luz del sol le de con menos fuerza cosa que  tambien reduce el evaporacion del agua en la tierra  y a la vez socova las malas hierbas no salen cuando la tierra esta cubierta por que necesitan sol.
    Colchas puede ser con plasticos negros haciendo abujeros en ellos para los verduras que plantas or piedras o trozos de madera or paja or carton en unas capas espesas. Si usas hojas, madera or carton, no solo cubraras del sol y la taparas para que no sale el agua, tambien cuando esos deshacen alimentaran la tierra, no seran tan fuertes como el estiercol y no quemaran las plantas por que sueltan nutrients despacio pero tambien alimentaran la tierra.
    Cuenta como la luna afecta el crecimineto de las plantas.
    Que insectos reducen plagas comiendo insectos que son prejudicales y cuales son prejudicales.
    Que hacer con amnimales prejudicales.
    Que plantas ayudan a otros plantas y cuales prejudican otros plantas.
      Que plantas ahuyentan a insectos
    Como hacer cremas y aceites para el piel con aceites y hierbas.
  y mucho mas . rose macaskie..
 
rose macaskie
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no me importa nada si alguin añade algunos libros, no he estudiado cuales son los mejores libros en español en este tema solo mencionó los libros que tengo que hablan de cosas que son parte de permacultura. rose
 
rose macaskie
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  un libro Español relacionado con esos temas y muy querido por me es "El Bosques Mediterráneo en el Norte de Africa, diversidad y  lucha contra desertification". de Jesus Charco es muy caro, asi que solo para ricos o para bibliotecas y tal.

  Este libro entre otros cosas habla de como el sobre pastoreo acaba con los arboles de un bosque de cedros. El cedros atlantica es natural de Marruecos. El bosque de cedros del photo es  un bosque abierto a lo mejor si el bosque es muy cerrado la falta de hierbaja no podia estropear tierras y dejarlas ärboles sin nutrientes, el nitrogeno viene del pudrimiento de hojas y trozos the corteza flores muertos y ramitas caidas, lo que llaman detritus pero en un bosque abierto si no hay hierbaja entre los arboles o arbustos puede que habra demasiado materia vegetal cayendo en la tierra como para producir nitrogeno o para hacer que la tierra absorbe agua.
  la falta de hierba tambien hace que los animales se detienen poco tiempo ahi para comer y por eso abonan poco.
     Una tierra llena de trozos vegetales o raices o las hojas que lombrices han podido bajar, absorbe y retiene mas agua y eso es muy importante en un pais con epoca seca como son muchos paises Españo hablantes.
      Los marroquis vallaron un parte de sus bosque para echar herbivoros en un esfuerzo 0para salvar sus cedruses que son un buen atraccion turistica y las hierbajas recuperaron y con ellos la tierra y despues los arboles, que habian llegado a tener my pocos ramas o hojas, recuperaron.

Si eres un quranista ha de interesarte que en paises del quoran usan la hoja de arboles para alimentar el ganado en los meses cuando los pastos secan. En Marrocco hay un arbol  que se llama, "el argan", que produce fruita que da un excellente aciete y sus hojas alimentan las cabras que trepan sus rama para comer pero no me imagino que los pastores les dejan quedarse tanto que estropean el arbol.

Cuelgo un photo de un situacion similar en un enebral en españa aqui los sabinas han llegado a ser raquiticos y hay 700mm de lluvia como media en este lugar asi que mucho lluvia por este arbol de alto monataña en el sol del mediteraneo tan rustico que puede aguantar con menos que 250mm.de lluvia e tierra malas..
El sabinar Tamajon, camino a Majaelrayo.

Despues colgaré un photo de el mismo arbol a unos cien metros de este lugar al lado de un trigal donde o ponen fertilizantes quimicas o usan las ovejas para fertilizar las tierras, En españa hay un tradicion argricolar es de hacer que el ganado o  siestean o trasnochan en lugares donde quieres un abundante cantidad de estiercol. y en el sugundo photo puedes ver el aspecto de este arbol cuando esta bien alimentado. agri rose macaskie
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rose macaskie
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  El otro parte de este libro que es muy interesante es que dice que, en cementerios Marroquis especiales, por ser donde se han enterrado un santo islamico, se cierran los cementarios a personas y ganado, excepto para celebar algun ocasion especial y ahi crece olivos, algarobos ceratonia silicua y palmitos y soto bosque con tal profusion que se hacen un bosquete impenetrable con un suelo que por los hojas que cayen en ello y el falta de sol es rico sombrio y humido. Puedes tener una jungla en el mediteraneo seco, halucinante, no, lo que los de america del norte llaman, una epifania, dar te cuenta que puede haber una jungla en el mediterráneo, siempre que no haya ruminantes, animales que comen plantas or humanos que hacen fuegos con su madera.
  Cuelgo un photo de detritus los hojas restas del bellota ramitas y flores del encina el roble mediteraneo. quercus ilex rotundifolia.
  los enebroa sabina albar juniperus thurifera producen de 1 a diez tonelados de humus, materia organica que mejora suelos, por hectar por año.
El detritus del encina el roble mediteraneo se usaba tradicionalmente para recoger lo para mejorar la tierra en los huertos de la gente. Malo para el bosque y bueno para los huertos- agri rose macaskie.
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rose macaskie
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Tambien me gusta el libro de jesus charco porque escribe de muchos classes de bosques. Los que tienen formas distinctos porque el hombre les ha cambiado el bosque impenetrable, el donde  que las copas se ajuntan y el abierto, el bosque relicia que es lo que queda de un bosque una vez grande, el cuyo tomano aumenta y el que  retrocede y el bosque cementario lleno de arboles muertos.
     Su libro tambien habla de muchos classes de bosques los de robles,n o  olivos, palmeros, acacias en el parte de marruecos que linda con el desierto, pinos, cedros y abetos. pistaceas and arganes.  Explica que algunos arboles no forman, de forma natural, bosques sino aparecen salpicados por ahi y alla, y habla de los arboles que viven donde hay mucha agua a lado de rios, riberaños como el suaces y chopo y alisos. Jamas habia considerado muchos clases de bosque solo algunos los de pinos o abetos y algun clase de arbol ingles o mezcla de ellos de familia desconocida. supongo que en Haiti hay jungla y mucho classes de bosque totalmente desconocido para me. agri rose macaskie.
 
rose macaskie
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  Sobre detritus y detrivores, Lombrices. 
Guisano son detrivores como ciervos son herbivors, uno come detritus y otro hierba.
 
        Algunos guisanos son principalment detrivors, viven entre hojas muertos y tal, otros escavan la tierra mineral aireando lo y aydando en la penetration de agua aunque tambien mezclan detritus y tierra mineral y suben mucho tierra al superficie. Asi la tierra empieza a formarse encima de piedras. 
 
        tengo un libro ingles escrito por una chica con el apodo, Lady vasura, cuyo nombre de verdad es Jane Down. Su libro se llama "Vasura magica" se trata de tierra y comp9ostaje. Ella se dedico a vender el estiercol de las vacas de su padre. DXije que quisera un trabajo que la pusiera an contacto con muchos gente y en que viajaba y su padre surgirio que vendera su estiercol. En su  esfuerzo para encontra una salida en el mercado por este producto aprendi mucho sobre ello.
      Tambien Tuvé que dar  vueltas al estiercol de mano  para pue se madurara bien,  su padre era un ganadero rico con muchos vacas pero su hija no fui nada mimada, para ella fui, aprender de la manera mas dura. Ingleses.

        Para venderlo tuve que aprender much para convencire a los centros de jardineria que querian su producto. Parece que es una persona inquieta intellectualmente que estudia las cosas de todos formas.
      Jane Down dice que las lombrices pasan unos 7.5 toneladas de tierra al año por acre. Un hectar es dos y medio, un poco menos acres. Las lombrices suben el nivel de la tierra unos 5.5mm al ano en Inglatierra segun Darwin.
    Darwin escribio un libro sobre eso, "THe Formation of Vegetable Mold Through the Action of Worms". El formacion de moho vegetal por el action de lombrices, segun ese escritora.
    Ella dice que eso es poco, en Eygiptia en el Valle del Nilo las lombrices producen 1,200 toneladas de la tierra que pasan, excrementan, al año por acre.  En Eygyptia tuveron consciencia de cuan importante el lombrice fui para creer tierras fertiles y las trataron como dioses. Los de Babilonia, de las jardines de Babilonia importaron lombrices del valle del Nilo para sus jardines.  agri rose macaskie.

      Informacion curiosa . En Australia hay un clase de lombrice de 3,3 m de largo llamado megascolides australis   y en  burma el lombrice notoscolex produce unos monticulas de tierra que ha pasado, de hasta 20-25cm de altura pesando un kilo y media     
 
paul wheaton
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Well ... I can't read a lick of it.

When I first saw this thread I thought "should I change the subject from 'spainsh' to 'spanish'?" 

I think I would like to keep stuff in the future in english, but I can understand the desire to list books that are available in spanish.

 
rose macaskie
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It would be better to change the title to spanish.
  Quranista asked for a list of books for Santa Domingo she said there was a desert in the middle of the island. i  have heard  the desert is in Haiti, that is french talking anyway. I started to give her one a bit reluctantly because all writting is time consuming and it is more fun writting for all and then the Haiti happened and i thought i had better write a longer one and for everyone, for South Americans too, it is though something that it is hard for you to check up on and it does not seem to attract people who would correct anything wrong putting in their own opinion so i understand that you should have reservations about it.

  If you are to change things i would be gratefull if you could you change to "Sheep Browse"  the forum with the  silly name called - i gave the name of a book on trees and i gave it wrong_ it is on the fourth or fifth page permaculture forums probably the fifth i wrote a title without realising it was a title. In it I wrote a description of a lot of curiouse things different races of sheep eat here in spian mostly according to the government book on spainish races of sheep, their charicteristics and such and it took a bit of time to write it so i would rather not try again. I have not read through it again to see what shape its in though i could add to it . rose macaskie
 
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pual wheaton if i started inciting people to revolution in spanish maybe some one would tell you about it so you would control the page even if you can't read it. Mnd you its a lot of work writing all this in spanish and not many people seem to read it.
  We need a page in french for the haitians.
 
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Very useful book list. Rose, muchas gracias. You always make references to such interesting books that are in Spanish but I've never seen available here. My Spanish isn't good, but my girlfriend is fluent and I'm sure can help me in my studies.
 
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Maikertu, My son  decided to whatch all films in english and that helped his english, maybe you can whatch films in spanish.
I dont know that it is a good book list it is the books i know of ion the theme in spanish, I have not made it my job to make sure i know the best books in Spanish on ht etheme. It i sjust some boooks in spanisyh on the topic. I used to have one agricultural book shop in the street that this one leads off and another one one door away from my mother in laws, it is as if some force had put me down next to all the agricaltural book shops of madrid i live in the very centre of madrid it is not to be expected tha ttheir should be an agricutural bok shop at every street corner of the capital of a big city unless it is near a university and the university book shops are not on my main fod shopping routes, my interest in reducing desertification and the books shops i needed put just within such easy reach of me as a house keeper was enough to make me  believe in magic. They have all shut down know.
Paul wheaton knows i go wildly anti catholic though i was bought up cahtolic but without knowing the sort of catholicism they serve out to adults, which is a lot more frightening than the one they serve out to children, so having me write a bit in spanish which makes it hard for him to know what i am up to must be a bit nerve racking for him. I only write inflamatory stuff on  his site in  english, that is open to his control, on his site at any rate. agri rose macakskie.
 
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rose macaskie wrote:
Maikertu, My son  decided to whatch all films in english and that helped his english, maybe you can whatch films in spanish.
I dont know that it is a good book list it is the books i know of ion the theme in spanish, I have not made it my job to make sure i know the best books in Spanish on ht etheme. It i sjust some boooks in spanisyh on the topic. I used to have one agricultural book shop in the street that this one leads off and another one one door away from my mother in laws, it is as if some force had put me down next to all the agricaltural book shops of madrid i live in the very centre of madrid it is not to be expected tha ttheir should be an agricutural bok shop at every street corner of the capital of a big city unless it is near a university and the university book shops are not on my main fod shopping routes, my interest in reducing desertification and the books shops i needed put just within such easy reach of me as a house keeper was enough to make me  believe in magic. They have all shut down know.
Paul wheaton knows i go wildly anti catholic though i was bought up cahtolic but without knowing the sort of catholicism they serve out to adults, which is a lot more frightening than the one they serve out to children, so having me write a bit in spanish which makes it hard for him to know what i am up to must be a bit nerve racking for him. I only write inflamatory stuff on  his site in  english, that is open to his control, on his site at any rate. agri rose macakskie.


Hi Rose,

I live in a desert area and so I also have an interest in reducing and reversing desertification. I have gone through a lot of revelations over the past couple years while I've been researching my area of the US West and permaculture. Until a few years ago, I was not aware that my area used to be desert prairie and there used to be extensive forests located around my local lake, for example. However, the former forest around the lake was recorded by a Spanish priest as he traveled through the area in the 1700s. Now the land around the lake is utterly barren and horrid, and most people do not care, which makes me feel very sad. They are interested in building houses and vacation homes around the lake. The effects of plowing for agriculture and overgrazing of cattle have done much to destroy and make the land more like desert. I believe the way forward is through right knowledge and right action.

Do you know of books which focus on la dehesa of Portugal and Spain? I am particularly interested in this farming style. Also your books on Mediterranean plants are useful. I am trying to identify and learn from the best sustainable farming systems. I believe the way to the future is one through right knowledge and right action.

I can roughly follow your posts in Spanish. I need much more practice, I know, and so my girlfriend tells me.

Do not worry. My background is in science. I believe more in the commonality and potential of the human spirit. We should not think of ourselves but for the generations that follow. If anything, that is the driving force for what I believe in now.
 
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maikeru, i have writen about the dehesa in the wooodland care part of these forums, it is the thread called ways of foresting oaks put in under my name.
  It may well be my horrible spanish that makes it hard to read this thread.
 EL libro español que tengo sobre dehesas, el libro que me ha dado el mayor parte del información que tengo sobre este tema, es el libro de César  Fuentes  Sánchez, La Encina En El Centro y Suroeste de españa. el editor es la junta de Castilla y Leon.
 Leerlo es difícil parece ser un conjunto de escritos de distintos ingenieros auriculares juntados de tal manera que algunos  trozos de información son repetido y otros trozos de información que deseas encontrar, como cual es el tamaño de una encina que no ha sido podado, no están, sin embargo es el único libro que he encontrado sobre este tema. puede que no es el único libro que existe sobre ello.
 Tengo otro libro sobre bosques españoles que es muy bueno, Los Bosques Ibericos, un interpretación geobotánica editado por Planeta, pero me parece que no cuenta las maners de podar los arboles y tales detalles que son útiles por el agricultura.

     The book that gave me all the information i have on dehesas is César Fuentes Sánchez's book La Encina En El Suroeste De España.   It is edited by the Junta of Castilla y Leon. a government editorial. It is  hard to read the information is as if variouse people had contributed the information of the different chapters and so that all the information of the book is not perfectly coordinated. It is though the best i have found but there maybe other good ones.
 I have a book that talks about all the natural woods in Spain that is very good called Los Bosques Ibericos. Una interpretation geobotanica. edited by Planeta. it does not have many details on how the trees are farmed for the production wood,  acorns as browse fattening and leaf as browse, though it is good on how other trees are used for agriculture.

  You talk about the effects of urbanization on the lake side where you live. Here one of the main stories about desertification the main story is that the it is urbanizations that has reduce vegetation because they take away from the moor land I suppose, the land that is just the natural vegetation, supposedly. I find fear of fires makes the locals put herbicides on large tracts of apparently wild countryside and that in housing estates people plant and look after so many trees that it seems to me that if desertification is what you mind about the areas of chalets are good against desertification. If the natural ground cover is what you are worried about, then residential areas reduce it but there is still a lot of moor land in Spain.
      I  ee the farmers as more likely to do for all the bits of natural countryside than the house owners, with the great desire that seems to exists here for  land that looks like the north of Europe instead of their beautiful moors called maquis or monte, covered in time and rosemary and lavender and cistus bushes and rather bare through overgrazing and the use of herbicides. I am torn between my love of bare mediteranean soils and the stones you see in them and the feeling that we should cover everything in vegetation so as to reduce desertification and now-days to reduce the carbon in the air because plants sink carbon.
 I know a shepherd who takes his 300 sheep over time covered moor land and all these animals don’t turn him into a nearly rich man, I think that sold as organic meat and possibly gourmet, because fed on time and other mountain herbs he could get away from poverty, however, there, in the mountains they are in a hurry to get away from old fashioned things and assure me with pride that the lambs are fed on horrible modern feeds and look at me with some disfavor for my interest in the old stews called calderetas, made from mutton of herb feed sheep and said to  have been very good, as a food no longer eaten and hopelessly un-modern, I don’t know how to convince them these things are the new modern. I do know how if I found a market for mountain fed lamb in which there sheep received a really good price, then they would be convinced.  
Of course the moralist here see a thin shepherd with a very thin family as perfectly rich enough and any desire to increase his wealth as avaricious, moralist like people to be kept on the b order of disaster without a penny extra to  help there children on with. agri rose macaskie
 
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No, it's fine, Rose. I've been looking over your other thread and the information in that is fantastic. Almost too much for me to take in at the moment. I will try to purchase and have the books you mentioned sent to me for study. Thank you so much for the references and firsthand knowledge.

Around the lake, there is not much natural cover, and what plant cover exists consists mainly of invasive/alien plant species. Maybe it doesn't matter. The lake is dead and full of alien carp too. We have a saying, that the first settlers might "make the desert bloom as the rose," except I came to realize they made the desert.

It's my understanding that much or perhaps most of Spain used to be covered in mixed oak forests before the time of the Romans and other ancient settlers. Perhaps it is not such a strange thing to want the land to be covered again. I believe that fire management and the fight against desertification can go hand in hand, if we focus on ways to "water" the land more effectively and get the proper plants and trees in to maintain the water cycle. We have many problems with large wildfires here in the American West. I have seen several huge wildfires close by my city and in the mountains, and now we have wildfires almost every summer, due to invasive grasses which burn hotter and faster than the native vegetation. Also, we have killed and driven away most of the herbivores that would help clean up and control dry grasses, brush, etc. so that fuel loads build up to tremendous levels, just waiting to ignite in our dry and hot 42-45 degree C summers. The whole situation is a mess and a waste of money and manpower.

As long as some people care and remember, the old ways will stay alive. I hope that more people will see the value of pasture and naturally fed animals too. All my readings and personal experience (taste tests!) lead me to believe they are superior as well.
 
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I like to plant the local plants, and i would like to conserve the local habitats i think you can and should do it, but though urbanization don’t have all local plants i dont think that urbanisations lead to desertification. I have known one village where gardening was not fashionable yet and so the presence  of chalets did not mean the planting of trees and plants but in a lot of places in Spain places that are built up with chalets are much greener than other places.
     Permaculture is, of course, a discipline designed to make the diet of those that grow their own food more complete and so includes all foreign plants that will grow in the climateof a permaculturists garden that are eatable andas it is geared to to making it cheap to do so, it is designed to help the poor and those who want to free themselves from the yoke of boring jobs and so includes introducing plants that will better the soil quickest and so is against the interests of those who are interested in preserving the natural plants of the place. Both aims are worthy ones, they are not in sync with each other however.

  It is because of farming, to make room for wheat that I see lots of slopes slowly lose their natural covering of junipers or oaks and the land beginning to look like all wheat farming land all over the world does begins to lose its natural plants. Soon Spains beautiful natural pastures full of all sorts of flowers, daisies and escorbus and things like plantain, natural pastures, that are just becoming fashionable in England, but that in many places never got lost,  will be lost, not to urbanization but the plough and more modern pasture plants, the grasses alpha alphas and clovers of the big industrial seed companies.
  I know of people who are scared of foreign and invasive plants or rather only want the ones that are natural to there, my neighbor for example. If my observation is right  it has lead him to kill a plant, viburnum lanten, at the bottom of bit of land that is next to mine that has no owner and is between my garden and his, at any rate someone cleaned up the plants of this type on the other side of the fence down by the river from me, those on my side of the fence are still there.  This plant is included in Juan Oria de la Rueda y Salgueros book of plants that are natural to Castilla and Leon though it is also sold in nurseries as a garden bush.
  This neiughbor of mine likes the plants natural to the place and so does not plant plants that are from other places but he has greatly reduced the biodiversity in his garden maybe because he did not see anything as natural to there. what he has left are  juniperus thurifera elms and grass, while mine is full of the plants that are natural to it though i also plant exotic plants and have introduced some plants that are natural to the centre of Spain though they didn't grow in the garden such as the euonymus european L. that has a berry like a shocking pink flower that i have grown from seed collected in woods  in the Escorial.
    I give here a list of some of the plants I have in my garden that are natural to it. In my garden I have three types of oak, quercus pyrenaica, ilex and faginea, juniperus thurifera, the viburnum lanten, I have mentioned above, catharthic  buckthorn, jasmine fruticans, a privet tree, ligustrum vulagaris, they are natural here though they are also grown as hedges, two types of honey suckle and I have seen a third type in the fields in nearby, two types of cystus, sloes, wild plums, may, one sort of willow, dog roses, blackberries lavender and there are about five sorts of native willows in and around the village two types of sorbus domestica and aries, there are also several rhamnus, buckthorn type trees, alder buck thorn and catharcic buckthorn, and rhamnus saxatilis.     
         I have also planted autoctonous plants, I look up autoctonous plants in Juan Oria de la Rueda y Salgueros book, “guia de Árboles y Arbustos de Castilla y Leon, that grow nearby like the, pistacia terebinthos, that I have seen in the fields in the next door village, I have seen both pistacea terebinthos and the atlanticos, which is similar with different flowers, a maple of Montpellier, there are lots at the other side of the village, two sorbus’s the domestica and the aries, like the maples there are lots of sorbuses in th efields at the other side of the village, euonymus europea that I grew from seeds collected from the woods in the Escorial, it has berries that look like a shocking pink flower, the common juniper and there are commun junipers around the village, Amelanchier ovallis.
   Here is a list of some of the smaller plants that grew in my garden before I went there and still do so. Horses celery, smyrnium perifolium, thapsia villosa, arctstaphylos, uvi ursi. Solanum dulcamara,verbascum pulverulentum, time, cystus, iris planifolia, orchids, clavelinas, I think the boar has eaten them, wild garlick, cranes bills, chicory dandy lions to mention a few of the plants in the garden that occur grew there as volunteers as permaculturists say, so I do more to preserve the natural plants than others who say they are interested in them but obliterate them as weeds. There are a lot of other plants in the garden that have appeared there or were already there.
     I plant foreign plants but I also look after the ones that are natural to the place. Agri rose macaskie.
 
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maikeru i have just been looking through to see if i had mentioned Juan Oría y Ruedas y Salguero's book guia de Árboles y Arbustos de Castilla y Leon, and i have not seen it in thick type on this thread so i suppose I hadnot got round  to mentioning it yet, and i think it is an important book.
    I can't remember all i have already written before paul wheaton said he would rather i did not write things he could not read, not suprising as i can get on to highly charged and polemic themes.
  This book is not a permaculture book but it tells you so much about the old uses of plants in Spain as to be a very useful book to a permaculturists. It is an easy way to find plants that might be of use to us for one reason or other that the permauclturist has not already thought of.
    Juan Oria de la Rueda y Salguero knows about history and the classics as well as about plants, he works as a professor in botanicca and fitosociology at the university of Valladolid. He has a degree from the university of Madrid, as an agricultural expert specialising in sylvo passtoral regimes. 
  As a historian he knows  for example that holly was as well as is used as browse plant for horses, which is useful information  because it is green in winter. THat there used to be ordenances obliging all families, even widows and the parish preists, to plant oaks and loook after the saplings, they were so usefull to the population and what the rules were for taking the wood or the foliage as browse of the oaks to stop them from being destoyed by the population. THat you can use the sticky juice of the cystus to tar roads with.
  It is not a dead cheap book but though it does not look very big there is so much information on each of the bushes and trees that he mentions that it should be considered three books and so dead cheap.
  I have to write down this information in Spanish too. Tomorrow, agri rose macaskie.
 
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  I made a mistake talking of th etrees that are natural to the counrtside round the village my house is in and said sorbus aucuparia when i meant sorbus aires. rose macaskie.
 
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rose macaskie wrote:
maikeru i have just been looking through to see if i had mentioned Juan Oría y Ruedas y Salguero's book guia de Árboles y Arbustos de Castilla y Leon, and i have not seen it in thick type on this thread so i suppose I hadnot got round  to mentioning it yet, and i think it is an important book.
    I can't remember all i have already written before paul wheaton said he would rather i did not write things he could not read, not suprising as i can get on to highly charged and polemic themes.
  This book is not a permaculture book but it tells you so much about the old uses of plants in Spain as to be a very useful book to a permaculturists. It is an easy way to find plants that might be of use to us for one reason or other that the permauclturist has not already thought of.
    Juan Oria de la Rueda y Salguero knows about history and the classics as well as about plants, he works as a professor in botanicca and fitosociology at the university of Valladolid. He has a degree from the university of Madrid, as an agricultural expert specialising in sylvo passtoral regimes. 
  As a historian he knows  for example that holly was as well as is used as browse plant for horses, which is useful information  because it is green in winter. THat there used to be ordenances obliging all families, even widows and the parish preists, to plant oaks and loook after the saplings, they were so usefull to the population and what the rules were for taking the wood or the foliage as browse of the oaks to stop them from being destoyed by the population. THat you can use the sticky juice of the cystus to tar roads with.
  It is not a dead cheap book but though it does not look very big there is so much information on each of the bushes and trees that he mentions that it should be considered three books and so dead cheap.
  I have to write down this information in Spanish too. Tomorrow, agri rose macaskie.


Thank you! Now to track down these books... That's going to be the difficult part.
 
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rose macaskie wrote:
I like to plant the local plants, and i would like to conserve the local habitats i think you can and should do it, but though urbanization don’t have all local plants i dont think that urbanisations lead to desertification. I have known one village where gardening was not fashionable yet and so the presence  of chalets did not mean the planting of trees and plants but in a lot of places in Spain places that are built up with chalets are much greener than other places.


I think urbanization is part of it, but it is true what you say. Much of the desertification is due to agricultural practices, whether it be clearing trees and forests, burning crop stubble and not returning it to the soil, or overgrazing. I am strongly opposed to laying down too much concrete and asphalt, though, as it prevents the soil from breathing and poisons it and gives no places for water to collect and drain into the ground. Thus, as urbanization spreads, there is usually a greater likelihood for heat waves and flash floods.

     Permaculture is, of course, a discipline designed to make the diet of those that grow their own food more complete and so includes all foreign plants that will grow in the climateof a permaculturists garden that are eatable andas it is geared to to making it cheap to do so, it is designed to help the poor and those who want to free themselves from the yoke of boring jobs and so includes introducing plants that will better the soil quickest and so is against the interests of those who are interested in preserving the natural plants of the place. Both aims are worthy ones, they are not in sync with each other however.


In general, I agree with this philosophy and I am not a total "nativist" in that I insist only on growing native plants. I do think the focus should be on native plants, but including additional plants or animals which may complement or enrich a system, farm, or ecosystem. Some plants and animals are irreplaceable for what they do. I think there is good reason to use a wide range of species but we must be careful about what we plant and grow. If we only restricted ourselves to native species, it would also make sense to me to abandon most of our foods and ornamental plantings as well, because they are not native. So no wheat, rice, chickens, pigs, cattle, etc. or clovers, etc. Life would not be as rich, right? However, used correctly, these are not a problem, IMO. It is more important to use adaptable or locally adapted varieties of plants and animals and ones which can fit in sustainably and in harmony with the locality.

  It is because of farming, to make room for wheat that I see lots of slopes slowly lose their natural covering of junipers or oaks and the land beginning to look like all wheat farming land all over the world does begins to lose its natural plants. Soon Spains beautiful natural pastures full of all sorts of flowers, daisies and escorbus and things like plantain, natural pastures, that are just becoming fashionable in England, but that in many places never got lost,  will be lost, not to urbanization but the plough and more modern pasture plants, the grasses alpha alphas and clovers of the big industrial seed companies.
  I know of people who are scared of foreign and invasive plants or rather only want the ones that are natural to there, my neighbor for example. If my observation is right  it has lead him to kill a plant, viburnum lanten, at the bottom of bit of land that is next to mine that has no owner and is between my garden and his, at any rate someone cleaned up the plants of this type on the other side of the fence down by the river from me, those on my side of the fence are still there.  This plant is included in Juan Oria de la Rueda y Salgueros book of plants that are natural to Castilla and Leon though it is also sold in nurseries as a garden bush.
  This neiughbor of mine likes the plants natural to the place and so does not plant plants that are from other places but he has greatly reduced the biodiversity in his garden maybe because he did not see anything as natural to there. what he has left are  juniperus thurifera elms and grass, while mine is full of the plants that are natural to it though i also plant exotic plants and have introduced some plants that are natural to the centre of Spain though they didn't grow in the garden such as the euonymus european L. that has a berry like a shocking pink flower that i have grown from seed collected in woods  in the Escorial.
    I give here a list of some of the plants I have in my garden that are natural to it. In my garden I have three types of oak, quercus pyrenaica, ilex and faginea, juniperus thurifera, the viburnum lanten, I have mentioned above, catharthic  buckthorn, jasmine fruticans, a privet tree, ligustrum vulagaris, they are natural here though they are also grown as hedges, two types of honey suckle and I have seen a third type in the fields in nearby, two types of cystus, sloes, wild plums, may, one sort of willow, dog roses, blackberries lavender and there are about five sorts of native willows in and around the village two types of sorbus domestica and aries, there are also several rhamnus, buckthorn type trees, alder buck thorn and catharcic buckthorn, and rhamnus saxatilis.     
         I have also planted autoctonous plants, I look up autoctonous plants in Juan Oria de la Rueda y Salgueros book, “guia de Árboles y Arbustos de Castilla y Leon, that grow nearby like the, pistacia terebinthos, that I have seen in the fields in the next door village, I have seen both pistacea terebinthos and the atlanticos, which is similar with different flowers, a maple of Montpellier, there are lots at the other side of the village, two sorbus’s the domestica and the aries, like the maples there are lots of sorbuses in th efields at the other side of the village, euonymus europea that I grew from seeds collected from the woods in the Escorial, it has berries that look like a shocking pink flower, the common juniper and there are commun junipers around the village, Amelanchier ovallis.
   Here is a list of some of the smaller plants that grew in my garden before I went there and still do so. Horses celery, smyrnium perifolium, thapsia villosa, arctstaphylos, uvi ursi. Solanum dulcamara,verbascum pulverulentum, time, cystus, iris planifolia, orchids, clavelinas, I think the boar has eaten them, wild garlick, cranes bills, chicory dandy lions to mention a few of the plants in the garden that occur grew there as volunteers as permaculturists say, so I do more to preserve the natural plants than others who say they are interested in them but obliterate them as weeds. There are a lot of other plants in the garden that have appeared there or were already there.
     I plant foreign plants but I also look after the ones that are natural to the place. Agri rose macaskie.



Wonderful list. I'm envious of your garden. Mine has a mix of herbs, veggies, flowers, and native plants such as chokecherries, blueberries, grapes, etc.
 
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I feel strongly abour both postures, i love the local vegetation and i think that making a system like the permacuulture one that will give people who dont have much money lots of food and a varied diet is so important and it does often include the introduction of maybe of even invasive plants. 
  They use a water fern in rice paddies that gives a lot of fertility to the paddy feilds it is apparently very invasive, still they seem to control if in eastern countries where they know it.
  It grows very fast so by pulling it off the surface of the pond every mounth you get lots of vegetable matter to use as compost.
  Apparently this water fern might have been part of the end of the last global warming epoc, it covered the great lakes and cooled down the world. I  have to look it up to explain why maybe it absorbes masses of carbon.
  Black berries are invasive in my garden but i get lots of exercise cutting them down, that is when i dont leave them, as they provide a thorney refuge for fauna birds and such. without us i suppose the whole of europe would be a bramble pach.
    Australia is so big it is hard to restrain plants by cutting them down but here i think we can.
  there  is some water weed eating up the mediteranean invasive foriegn plants are something that can be terrible. It is a difficult question.
      Spain has absolutely milesw of wild alnd that can be spoilt by fertiliser but not by housing except maybe on the sea coast.
    There are more wild plants than the ones i gave in my garden. people need to learn the aspect at any rate of wild plants or they pull them up.
  It is not just farming that makes for the destruction of the natural flora in Spain it is also cultural, many  people want spain to look like the north of europe, as far as i can make out. They despise their natural plants such as enebros and usually know very little about plants so they dont even recognise the wild life. They laugh at me for not knowing all the rivers and mountain tops, even of england,  well they are incredibly ignorant about plant life so you get people who in theory protect the local fauna and who in fact know nothing about it and dont notice if its disappearing, only if i am
    It is illegal to chop them down but whops an accident here and another there and suddenly a wheat feild or a olive grove appears where there were woods and olives are so over prunned and the ground at theire feet is so bare that they can only b ethought of as somthign that spoils soils fertilised i suppose with chemicals as ther is nothign in olive grooves to enrich the soils natuarlly. I bet they put weed killers to keep down th egrass at their feet.
htere are five different sort of juniper in Spain three where my house is the common the thurifera and the oxcyccedrus.
  Also if they use a lot of herbicides on the ground at the feet of junipers then slowly the trees get weakened and in the end the pepole responsible for the fauna and flora will giv etherir permidsion for the trees to be taken down as they seem inviable.
  Residential areas can mean more paving and roofs but maybe we will have to paint our roofs white to reflect the sunlight back so reducing global warming at the moment illegal i suppose as it does not fit in with the traditional look of the village. and there are white reflctive paht an droad surfaces and also road surfaces that let water through look up Chixago alley clean up . I wil write about that later.
  this is agressive it is spaniards who have taught me to take up themes agressively  if that will help the good of all. agri rose macaskie
 
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rose macaskie wrote:
I feel strongly abour both postures, i love the local vegetation and i think that making a system like the permacuulture one that will give people who dont have much money lots of food and a varied diet is so important and it does often include the introduction of maybe of even invasive plants. 
  They use a water fern in rice paddies that gives a lot of fertility to the paddy feilds it is apparently very invasive, still they seem to control if in eastern countries where they know it.
  It grows very fast so by pulling it off the surface of the pond every mounth you get lots of vegetable matter to use as compost.
  Apparently this water fern might have been part of the end of the last global warming epoc, it covered the great lakes and cooled down the world. I  have to look it up to explain why maybe it absorbes masses of carbon.


Forgive my slow reply, I've been thinking about your reply since I finished watching some videos and talks on grazing and desertification.

Maybe invasive is only just a label, just like how we brand certain plants "weeds." I understand now after reading Fukuoka's works and thinking about, seeing it, that weeds are not weeds. There are no weeds in nature.

Yes, Azolla are very fast growing. I think they double in area across a pond or lake about every 3-4 days with enough nutrients. They're used to fertilize the rice paddies.

  Black berries are invasive in my garden but i get lots of exercise cutting them down, that is when i dont leave them, as they provide a thorney refuge for fauna birds and such. without us i suppose the whole of europe would be a bramble pach.


Funny you say that, I just purchased some blackberries to put in a shady place or under my maples.

     Australia is so big it is hard to restrain plants by cutting them down but here i think we can.
  there  is some water weed eating up the mediteranean invasive foriegn plants are something that can be terrible. It is a difficult question.
       Spain has absolutely milesw of wild alnd that can be spoilt by fertiliser but not by housing except maybe on the sea coast.
    There are more wild plants than the ones i gave in my garden. people need to learn the aspect at any rate of wild plants or they pull them up.
  It is not just farming that makes for the destruction of the natural flora in Spain it is also cultural, many  people want spain to look like the north of europe, as far as i can make out. They despise their natural plants such as enebros and usually know very little about plants so they dont even recognise the wild life. They laugh at me for not knowing all the rivers and mountain tops, even of england,  well they are incredibly ignorant about plant life so you get people who in theory protect the local fauna and who in fact know nothing about it and dont notice if its disappearing, only if i am


Well, England is England, and Spain is Spain, and while I understand people might want Spain to look like England...and we have a very similar problem here with planting so many water-hungry plants, green lawns, and non-native trees that are not well-adapted...it probably cannot be. I think people need to learn to appreciate and cultivate the beauty inherent in a place. The land knows what it wants to be.

    It is illegal to chop them down but whops an accident here and another there and suddenly a wheat feild or a olive grove appears where there were woods and olives are so over prunned and the ground at theire feet is so bare that they can only b ethought of as somthign that spoils soils fertilised i suppose with chemicals as ther is nothign in olive grooves to enrich the soils natuarlly. I bet they put weed killers to keep down th egrass at their feet.
htere are five different sort of juniper in Spain three where my house is the common the thurifera and the oxcyccedrus.
  Also if they use a lot of herbicides on the ground at the feet of junipers then slowly the trees get weakened and in the end the pepole responsible for the fauna and flora will giv etherir permidsion for the trees to be taken down as they seem inviable.
  Residential areas can mean more paving and roofs but maybe we will have to paint our roofs white to reflect the sunlight back so reducing global warming at the moment illegal i suppose as it does not fit in with the traditional look of the village. and there are white reflctive paht an droad surfaces and also road surfaces that let water through look up Chixago alley clean up . I wil write about that later.
  this is agressive it is spaniards who have taught me to take up themes agressively  if that will help the good of all. agri rose macaskie


I've been looking at Spanish breeds of chickens, sheep, cows, and other things and they are all bold and magnificent.
 
                            
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rose macaskie wrote:It is not just farming that makes for the destruction of the natural flora in Spain it is also cultural, many  people want spain to look like the north of europe, as far as i can make out. They despise their natural plants such as enebros and usually know very little about plants so they dont even recognise the wild life. They laugh at me for not knowing all the rivers and mountain tops, even of england,  well they are incredibly ignorant about plant life so you get people who in theory protect the local fauna and who in fact know nothing about it and dont notice if its disappearing, only if i am


It is even worse than that. The north of Spain (Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, the Basque Country, Navarra, La Rioja ...) does look like England or Ireland, generally cool and wet all year round, but wherever new land is open for development and houses built first thing people do is take away the rich local soil (it gets muddy when machines and construction workers start messing about, so better get it out of the way), replace it later with new soil (to some 5 inches deep instead of the original 18 inches or more), and put in it some foreign grass which encroaches all over the place. Then poison the soil to prevent the local weeds from taking root. People get all fussy when something other that their graminacea of choice appears in their lawn, literally burn everything they mow in the open air, chase and kill lizards, toads, snakes, moles and everything they consider "evil". Spread poison by the roads and on ancient stone walls to get rid of the rich vegetal life that finds cover in them, just to prevent wasps and other social insects from nesting there. Makes me wonder why in the world they are living in the countryside, seeing that everything around them is so much bothering them.
 
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  The goat herd told me that the weekenders had complained about the goat do on the road just in front of where he keeps his animals at night. They don’t want any more animal dirt in villages where farming should be the natural thing. That is crazy for me,
  It is not just weekender who like killing things the villagers are also very keen on getting rid of snakes and their cats i suppose get rid of lizards and I think herbicides and poisons have an irresistible charm for everyone who loves efficiency and the modern has great charm for those who have very few modern things would they had all the computers and other modern gadgets in the world instead of herbicides and pesticides, my husband likes herbicides and pesticides too.
      Apparently our computers chucked out and taken to china to be recycled poison china so they are bad too. agri rose macaskie.
 
rose macaskie
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At first i imagined the people in the village would not be using herbicides and pesticides  in what seemed to be natural mountain top and then it turned out they were.
          They used to have controlled burns for the mountainside they periodically wanted to free of cistus plants or broom or to lighten up the hold these had on the mountainsides and increase the room for pastures.
    If you burn certain plants the roots of these survive the fire and the plants re-grow though it takes them a while to form the dense cover they used to make. By burning, if they wanted to increase the room for pastures reduce the nuisance to paying hunters who come to shoot deer or boar of too many bushes which stopped their path, they just burnt the bush, which lightens up the undergrowth for a while, without doing for it forever and poisoning the earth but now they aren't allowed to do controlled burns, I imagine, I have not seen any fires recently and they put herbicides on the mountainsides which is so much worse. Maybe controlled burns should be reconsidered.
     

  Though urbanizations are bad i still think that changing farming methods and growing wheat farming is what does much the greatest damage to the countryside here where there are miles upon miles of what in England is called heath or moorland, that are more affected by herbicides and overgrazing than the occasional urbanization but i don’t live on the coast where the effect of urbanization is much greater. 

  I post a photo of the effects of incredible amount of herbicides that were put on my garden Someone put herbicides on, stopping the grass from growing for even as much as, ten years I think it now is in the first place that got burnt, someone put herbicides on my garden in strips, every year another strip till they had covered all the part of land I have on the other side of the stream that runs through my garden, which was a pity but  it allowed me to identify the use of herbicides in other bits of mountainside and start to fight to lessen the use of herbicides, the truth is I have not fought very hard if I am being honest, I started doing other things like writing this. Ground that has been treated with whatever my ground was treated with is just covered in moss afterwards. agri rose macaskie.
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I am going to post a photo of a wider angle on th emoss so that you can see how the moss extends everywhere. agri rose maccaskie.
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  THe small rosset of leaves that you can see among the moss belong to a plant called vellosilla in spanish whose leavs are similar to those of the daisy leaves of a normal lawn except they are covered in long hairs, i wonder if they might not take up humidity from the air through these hairs so the poisoground does not affect them much. moss take its humidity from th eair its roots only ahchor it to the spot.
This plant has a flower of the dandy lion type but smaller, i post a photo of the flower here.
m i have also posted another picture of the plant so you can see the fine white hairs on th eleaves but i am not sure that it was necessary you can also see them on th eleaves of the first photo i suppose seeign them in both photos makes yhou feel more sure of what you are seeing.  agri rose macaskie.
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