• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic

Has anyone used water kefir to ferment boiled beans?  RSS feed

 
Chris Dimitriadis
Posts: 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I tried this with a jar covered with just a coffee filter and on the surface of the solution appeared a white film. Should i try ferment aerobic or anaerobic?
 
S Bengi
Posts: 1359
Location: Massachusetts, Zone:6/7, AHS:4, Rainfall:48in even distribution
9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have soaked dried beans in kefir water for 24-48 hours. Then boiled them regularly in fresh water. Hopefully it helps with the anti-nutrients.
 
John Saltveit
gardener
Posts: 2125
69
bike books food preservation forest garden fungi trees
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This is an interesting idea. Beans are so good for you in so many ways. There are some anti-nutrients, however recent studies have shown that people with the most phytates have the least of several kinds of cancers. Therefore, phytate may be very healthful.

I regularly ferment beans, but I boil them first, then ferment. Boiling them after fermenting kills all the microbiology that were fermented.

John S
PDX OR

 
S Bengi
Posts: 1359
Location: Massachusetts, Zone:6/7, AHS:4, Rainfall:48in even distribution
9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Have you ever fermented with water/milk kefir (I have both). And if so how long assuming all that you did was cover them with the kefir water.
I usually make my kefir water with 30% kefir grain+15%sugar and 55% water. It usually get my kefir done in less than a day.
 
John Saltveit
gardener
Posts: 2125
69
bike books food preservation forest garden fungi trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I cook the beans, then leave them at room temperature usually for a day, sometimes 2, then frig. The first time, I have to put in kefir itself, that I buy at the store, or whey from yogurt. After that, I save a small portion of the last batch of beans to put in the next batch, and maybe just a bit of the kefir. It works well.
John S
PDX OR
 
Chris Dimitriadis
Posts: 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you all for responding!

I tried to ferment beans because i read that after fermentation they are easies to digest(less gas).

My initial worries were because of this bacterium -botulinum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulinum_spores - which i read that it appears in anaerobic conditions in low acid (ph greater than 4.6) canned food if not canned properly.

I know that lactofermentation creates an acidic enviroment which is bad for botulinum but due to my impulsive nature which almost led me to a rather terrifying incident a few months ago with raw milk and the fact that i'm new at fermenting, i ought to be cautious even if i ask stupid questions at times. (i made kefir with raw sheep milk and after i drunk it, i learnt about Brucellosis. Finally the milk was ok but damn my impulsive nature!)

So
DAY 1:
I fermented with a coffee filter,aerobic.
DAY 2:
I fermented anaerobic because i found out that the acidity rises if there is no oxygen.
DAY 3:
I threw it away because the initial white film on the surface had bloated and by then i had no idea if what i had done was harmful or not but i wouldn't risk it.


Of course it smelled awful but of that i was aware. Beans smell bad when fermented.

Today and while i was writing this post i searched again, about botulism this time and i was luckier (previously i had searched about fermenting beans with water kefir, today i googled about lactofermenting and botulism). I found those 2 videos and this very informative post which say that fermented food is safe.
So i guess my beans were ok. I will try again.


https://umconnect.umn.edu/p58514658/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QdhSFfaoz0

http://www.wildfermentation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3654


S bengi I haven't ferment any food yet but i intend to.
It's been a year since i started using milk kefir and few weeks water kefir. I use 1 tbs sugar 1 tbs water kefir and 1 cup and i think it takes 24 to 36 hrs. I like it sour. As for food fermenting i dont know but i will try. There is no limit i think(at least now that i know its safe). And it doesn't have to be completely fermented to be eaten.

John Saltveit i'll do the same because i want the microbes alive.

Thank you all! You have a nice forum here with lots of information.
 
John Elliott
pollinator
Posts: 2392
79
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Chris, maybe you made some natto. Did you try stirring it up with chopsticks to see if you could get a mass of sticky threads?

Natto is usually fermented at a little above ambient temperature though. When I have made it, I put the pots on top of my food dehydrator, and that keeps it at about 110F, and it sets up in a day or two. Oh, and I did use some scrapings from a store-bought package of natto to make sure I had the right bacteria (I'm not downwind of any rice and soybean farms). Also, there is no effort made to make the conditions anaerobic -- just keep it loosely covered so the flies don't land on it and wait for it to start stinking.
 
John Saltveit
gardener
Posts: 2125
69
bike books food preservation forest garden fungi trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
When I ferment the beans, they have a slight odor of fungus on them. It is not really a pleasant odor, sort of a mini-rot smell, because it is in fact, controlled rotting. That's what fermentation is. I find that it really cuts down on the gas. I also think that I can almost not afford to eat beans, as cheap and healthy as they are. I believe that fermenting cuts down on some of the things that stop beans from being easier to digest. My wife made an amazing dish out of cacao and beans, ground up. It tastes like hearty chocolate sauce. It was amazingly delicious and guilt-free. I would share the recipe, but she refuses to tell me. "A woman must have some secrets." I think it's an insurance policy. Maybe google cannellini beans and cacao sauce?
John S
PDX OR
 
Judith Browning
Posts: 5912
Location: Arkansas Ozarks zone 7 alluvial,black,deep loam/clay with few rocks, wonderful creek bottom!
367
bike chicken fungi trees urban woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi, Chris...welcome to permies, it's great to have you here!

here is a recipe from 'Nourishing Traditions' by sally fallon. I use her lacto-fementation guidelines with great success for vegetables and salsas although I haven't tried this....
'fermented bean paste'

3 cups cooked and drained beans
1 onion, peeled and coarsely chopped
3 cloves garlic, peeled
1tablespoon sea salt
4 tablespoons whey

place onion and garlic in food processor and process until well chopped.
Add remaining ingredients and process untill smooth.
place in a quart-sized, wide-mouth mason jar, leaving 1 inch of space between the top of the beans and the top of the jar.
cover tightly and leave at room temperature for about 3 days before transferring to the refrigerator.
serve as a dip.

the whey that I use is from raw clabbored goat milk. the book also suggests whey from kefir and yoghurt both among others and always a tightly screwed on lid....I only do this in wide mouth canning jars and have only had problems if the lid is not screwed on tightly.
to quote sally fallon "lacto-fermentation is an anaerobic process and the presence of oxygen once fermentation has begun, will ruin the final product." I believe her

It is an excellent book...I think there is a new one out now too and then there are Sandor Katz books on fermentations.



 
Chris Dimitriadis
Posts: 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Jonh Eliot

Unfortunately i didn't stir it up with chopsticks and didn't notice threads as i was spilling it.
Doesn't natto require specific bacterium and specifically soya beans? Bacillus subtilis? I'm not sure where can i find it. Also i haven't see natto in stores. Maybe in a bioshop. It sounds pretty easy though and i will try it in time!


John Saltveit

Can you explain me this clause , maybe you wanted to say something else or you mean, that because of the gas you avoid them? because that was the reason for me:

"I also think that I can almost not afford to eat beans, as cheap and healthy as they are."

I've read about cacao and beans again somewhere in this forum! Can't blame her! Secrets do taste delicious!


Judith

I'm glad to be part of your community and hopefully i'll be able to contribute too in the future.
Thank you for the recipe! I'll definitely try it.
Now i'm soaking some adzuki beans.

And one more question, which i think could be a new topic but anyway..
How often do you eat fermented food?

I've read that you can eat whenever but i only ask this question because I noticed that the last few weeks my teeth hurt and by chance i read in a forum that its probably because of high acidity of kefir, so i stopped for a few days and indeed i feel better. Now i intend to drink 2 to 3 times a week or mix it with food to lessen the effects. That disappointed me a little because i was so excited about fermentation and fermenting food. Maybe i have something else (gingivitis or plaque) . I have to visit a dentist.

P.S.: Oh and please, feel free to correct my english if you notice a mistake (and feel the itch) ..especially in expressions.I'd like to learn and use them right.
 
Judith Browning
Posts: 5912
Location: Arkansas Ozarks zone 7 alluvial,black,deep loam/clay with few rocks, wonderful creek bottom!
367
bike chicken fungi trees urban woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi, Chris....i finally tried the recipe that I posted above and just opened the jar after a three day ferment....it is delicious. There was a slight 'poof' when I opened the lid....so I know it was working. I am using it as a spread on a sandwich. The book suggests using it as a dip...I think for that I would add some other things....like a fresh tomato and chopped onion and cilantro maybe. My understanding is that most lacto-fementations are intended as condiments not to be eaten in large quantities, just some with every meal as a digestive aid.

I used red kidney beans and a lot of garlic and some cayenne pepper in the mix and followed the instructions exactly...including screwing down the lid TIGHTLY. I always write on the lid the exact hour I begin the ferment...sometimes in the summer heat an hour or two more can make a batch too strong or for cucumbers, especially, too soft.
 
Dawn Hoff
Posts: 504
Location: Andalucía, Spain
26
bee books chicken greening the desert rabbit trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Have you tried to sprout them instead? Also, the indigestible stuff (don't remember what it's called) is broken down if they are cooked thoroughly - in some crunchy circles beans are often served "al dente", but cultures where beans are eaten a lot (like Spain) they cook them almost to a mush, which breaks down most of the stuff that make them hard to digest.

According to many of the people I know who are master fermenters, whey is not a good option for fermenting veggies - the bacteria in whey are meant to break down lactose, not fructose, so they do a poor job at it. Veggies are much tastier when fermented in brine without whey IMO AND I guess that is because the earth bacteria are better suited for the job of breaking down the fructose.
 
Steven Feil
Posts: 242
Location: South Central Idaho
2
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Dawn Hoff wrote:Have you tried to sprout them instead?
That is a GREAT idea, a better option than cooking which destroys much of the nutrition.

According to many of the people I know who are master fermenters, whey is not a good option for fermenting veggies - the bacteria in whey are meant to break down lactose, not fructose.While whey may primarily be a lactose product people have been using it for generations with success. Also, it is always best to let the naturally occurring bacteria start and do the work.

Fructose is a product of fruits. Here is an article that may explain the different types of sugars in veggies.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/394551-naturally-occurring-sugars-in-vegetables/
 
Judith Browning
Posts: 5912
Location: Arkansas Ozarks zone 7 alluvial,black,deep loam/clay with few rocks, wonderful creek bottom!
367
bike chicken fungi trees urban woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Dawn Hoff wrote:Have you tried to sprout them instead? Also, the indigestible stuff (don't remember what it's called) is broken down if they are cooked thoroughly - in some crunchy circles beans are often served "al dente", but cultures where beans are eaten a lot (like Spain) they cook them almost to a mush, which breaks down most of the stuff that make them hard to digest.

According to many of the people I know who are master fermenters, whey is not a good option for fermenting veggies - the bacteria in whey are meant to break down lactose, not fructose, so they do a poor job at it. Veggies are much tastier when fermented in brine without whey IMO AND I guess that is because the earth bacteria are better suited for the job of breaking down the fructose.


Hi, Dawn....there are many ways to ferment foods....I was talking about "lacto-fermentation". The whey isn't always necessary but gives these ferments a boost in the right direction. sally fallon's recipes call for more salt if whey is not used and some, as in the fruit ferments and the bean paste need whey to work correctly. I much prefer whey to the additional salt.
Fermenting foods covers a really large area...lots of methods and personal favorites.
For just cooking a pot of beans Fallon suggests a bit of whey in the soak water then rinse, then cook....but as you say, just cooking is enough to neutralize phytic acid and other enzyme inhibitors for most beans.
 
Dawn Hoff
Posts: 504
Location: Andalucía, Spain
26
bee books chicken greening the desert rabbit trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I know there are many ways to ferment I personally prefer to keep the lactic acid with the lactose and use salt brine for eg. veggies - I think they are more delicious and also give a wider variety of bacteria if you have salt-fermented veggies, lacto-fermented dairy etc.
 
Judith Browning
Posts: 5912
Location: Arkansas Ozarks zone 7 alluvial,black,deep loam/clay with few rocks, wonderful creek bottom!
367
bike chicken fungi trees urban woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
the whey encourages "the growth of lactobacilli that are present on the surface of all living things, especially numerous on leaves and roots of plants growing in or near the ground. Whey supplies lactobacilli and acts as an inoculant".
"Lactic acid is a natural preservative that inhibits putrefying bacteria. Starches and sugars in vegetables and fruits are converted into lactic acid by the many species of lactic-acid-producing bacteria."
"lacto-fermentation is an anaerobic process and the presence of oxygen, once fermentation has begun, will ruin the final product."
all quotes from Nourishing Traditions by sally fallon

the amount of whey used is only 4 tablespoons per quart of vegetables, fruit or beans.


I personally prefer to keep the lactic acid with the lactose and use salt brine for eg. veggies - I think they are more delicious and also give a wider variety of bacteria if you have salt-fermented veggies, lacto-fermented dairy etc.


I think lactic acid is produced even in a salt brine.
 
Dawn Hoff
Posts: 504
Location: Andalucía, Spain
26
bee books chicken greening the desert rabbit trees
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Sorry - wrong wording I'm not a native English speaker, and bacteria is an area where I sometimes lack words.

However: there are several strands of beneficial bacteria, and they specialize in breaking down different sugars. It may be that they are all lactobacillus, or that they all produce lactic-acid, but I as far as I remember they are quite different - the one living naturally in fresh organic vegetables and the ones naturally occurring in milk. If you use whey in your fermentation process of veggies, you promote different bacteria than the ones that would grow if you let a wild fermentation take place in salt brine - and I think it is more delicious (when you use whey, it has a tendency to form mushy substance at the bottom of the jar). But just as important - I think that letting the naturally occurring bacteria grow allows us to get a wider variety of bacteria - and the more different strands we can get the better (in my opinion).
 
Steven Feil
Posts: 242
Location: South Central Idaho
2
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Dawn Hoff wrote:Sorry - wrong wording I'm not a native English speaker,

However: there are several strands of beneficial bacteria


The word you are looking for is STRAINS, not strands. And don't you DARE apologize, that is an English lesson for you!

Whether started with natural or whey the result is the "same", fermented food. I put it in quotes because as you said, you do not like the result as much. Others do like the result. It is a preference that must be discovered.
 
Dawn Hoff
Posts: 504
Location: Andalucía, Spain
26
bee books chicken greening the desert rabbit trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
If tastes different and it doesn't contain the same bacteria, it's not exactly the same thank you for the English lesson
 
John Saltveit
gardener
Posts: 2125
69
bike books food preservation forest garden fungi trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Chris-
When I say I can't afford not to eat beans, I am saying a few things.
One is that beans seem to have a second meal effect, meaning that you don't get hungry after eating them, so you eat less. I am trying to lose weight.
Another is that groups that eat beans have much better health effects-less cholesterol, less cancer, lower weight. I don't remember all the details of all the studies but they are extremely numerous. They are also very versatile and a source of protein that doesn't include saturated fat, meat fat, cancer, etc.
John S
PDX OR
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!