purple permaculture vs. brown permaculture

Danielle Venegas wrote:I have to admit I have a hard time taking the knowledge of some permie people in when they do not look like people I could respect overly much. I sit here in heels and a well tailored dress thinking and planning my land in permaculture. Sometimes I feed my chickens in these heels and this dress. No one would associate my appearance with the concept of permaculture. That is probably the problem. If we want the message to reach the people it needs to reach we really need to dress it up in a package they can accept. I try to get over my appearance bias but it can be hard. I hope that doing what I do the way I look will help broaden the minds of those who come to see what I've done.

Could you please elaborate on this? I like the idea of dressing the part. And I know that there are lots of different demographics that need some permie love. I'd like to hear more about how we might better project our message though demographic awareness.

I'm of the mind that there's few "corporate suits" that are going to be impressed by barefoot "hipsters". It clearly goes the other way too. So how might we make the inroads to get the message to those least likely to want to hear it from our current platform?

Or... did I miss your point?

kevin wheels wrote:I agree with Ludi.

Permaculture is a loaded term that means many different things to many people. Though in my humble opinion, if one is concerned so greatly with systematic and efficient monetary gain, and they're trying to operate under the guise of permaculture, they are missing the point almost entirely. The current economic model is anything but sustainable. To me, permaculture is a blueprint for revolution. It's a step towards dissolving the destructive human ego and realizing that all life is important, and money is not.

I find that incredibly amusing when I consider how very much money it takes to convert land from the death of over farming/over grazing to permaculture. My land is dead. It's been dead for decades. I'm pouring money into it. The only thing stopping me from reaching my permie dreams is money. So I just find it amusing that you say money is not important. Money buys trees and plants and the tools needed to fix the land.

Craig Dobbelyu wrote:

Danielle Venegas wrote:I have to admit I have a hard time taking the knowledge of some permie people in when they do not look like people I could respect overly much. I sit here in heels and a well tailored dress thinking and planning my land in permaculture. Sometimes I feed my chickens in these heels and this dress. No one would associate my appearance with the concept of permaculture. That is probably the problem. If we want the message to reach the people it needs to reach we really need to dress it up in a package they can accept. I try to get over my appearance bias but it can be hard. I hope that doing what I do the way I look will help broaden the minds of those who come to see what I've done.

Could you please elaborate on this? I like the idea of dressing the part. And I know that there are lots of different demographics that need some permie love. I'd like to hear more about how we might better project our message though demographic awareness.

I'm of the mind that there's few "corporate suits" that are going to be impressed by barefoot "hipsters". It clearly goes the other way too. So how might we make the inroads to get the message to those least likely to want to hear it from our current platform?

Or... did I miss your point?

Nope, you got it. I've seen a fair amount of permie videos done by people who I would never associate with in real life. They do have great knowledge. They are just having a hard time passing it on to a fair amount of the population. Of course, they would have a hard time taking my knowledge because I do not look anything like someone they would associate with. You get what I mean?? It's just schemata. We all have preprogrammed reactions to various stimuli. Some people can overcome those biases and some can't.

So if you're trying to reach people, to pass on knowledge and convert their way of thinking, you need to dress it up in a way that they can understand. That is what they teach in school, speak to your audience. So if you're trying to reach a certain sort of person you need to speak to them in a way as to get your message across. Act like you can relate to their lives, even if you can't. Don't pass judgment, be understanding of their way of viewing the world. It's probably been passed down to them from their parents and their parents parents. I know many of the commercial farmers we are around are generations deep. They know no other way of farming and they will have a hard time accepting that the way they've been doing it is not the best way.

Danielle Venegas wrote:

kevin wheels wrote:I agree with Ludi.

Permaculture is a loaded term that means many different things to many people. Though in my humble opinion, if one is concerned so greatly with systematic and efficient monetary gain, and they're trying to operate under the guise of permaculture, they are missing the point almost entirely. The current economic model is anything but sustainable. To me, permaculture is a blueprint for revolution. It's a step towards dissolving the destructive human ego and realizing that all life is important, and money is not.

I find that incredibly amusing when I consider how very much money it takes to convert land from the death of over farming/over grazing to permaculture. My land is dead. It's been dead for decades. I'm pouring money into it. The only thing stopping me from reaching my permie dreams is money. So I just find it amusing that you say money is not important. Money buys trees and plants and the tools needed to fix the land.

So much a matter of perspective. For example, the importance of money as Danielle expresses it here is to revive life. This is not a disagreement between two views. The money is not important - what an be done with the money is important.

As far as making things happen in recovering a parcel of land, money, time and effort are the three factors that go into making the change happen, and they are relative. The exact same thing can be done, but where there is more money it may be doable in less time, and so on. It cannot be done without all three, but the proportions of each will impact the time it takes to accomplish the goal.

Personally, I see permaculture as a path to a profound paradigm shift, one that I am entirely sure some people oppose at a deep and visceral level. At an equivalent level, I believe those people to be wrong - and not just wrong, but a threat to life on this planet. As I see it, this thing has pretty high stakes.

I don't see highlighting differences within the movement as being productive. We are all much closer to being in agreement with one another than with the people running CAFOs and spraying RoundUp. They are the opposition, the "enemy" if one has to have one. Not other people standing on the permaculture side of the divide.

That sounds very political.. My garden is where I go to escape the political world.
I prefer to look at it as "doing what works"..

There's no denying that what the Permaculture advocates and practitioners are doing exactly that: What works.

You going off on a tangent into shades of purple and browns; much like holding hands and singing hippy-dippy songs or doing group yoga before putting in work and talking shop is a waste of energy.
If it works for you fine.. but don't invite me to a purple only meeting.

If you are approaching skeptics don't use the political jargon, don't identify what brand of "do-nothing" farming you prescribe; they don't care if your a purple purist or a brown mud-pie elitest because they don't even know what your talking about.

Respect is earned through results and by golly you've earned it. Identify systems that are in somewhat in alignment and slowly poison their well with the splendor of the spoils of your labor, so to speak.

Breaking down each discipline and erecting barriers and assigning everyone and everything into groups is what divides community and turns it into an echo chamber where nothing gets done.

The first youtube video I saw of Paul Stamets I rolled my eyes at a comment he made.. but then he dropped what I took as us-vs-them divisiveness and blew my friggin' mind.. had me enthralled with the rest of the video.

My religion is life and God is my provider.. All people and ideas are welcome at my table. That's how I view the garden, anyway.

james Apodaca wrote:That sounds very political.. My garden is where I go to escape the political world

I get that, but I also like Wendell Berry's quote "eating is an agricultural act."
I'd maybe adapt it to "growing food is a political act", but that's how I roll

Kind of odd to hear "that sounds political" in what is an inherently political thread. The discussion of dividing lines within any group, which is the topic here, is political.
there was something else Daniece said that saddens me. A state meet regarding people she watched on YouTube who knew theit subject but whom she would never associate with due to their appearance.

I agree , it would be difficult to convince modern farmers or householders to switch to permaculture models by blowing rainbows out your ass. I don't find that to be the main obstacle though. I think permaculture - today anyway - is too complex. Once you get the big picture it makes total sense. Geoffs video on 10 years of food forest all in a row is less an instructional how-to as an "Ah Ha!" Grokking kind of thing:



I like how Geoff at the end of these videos quiets his voice like we are all sharing in the profundity. I certainly share that with him.

This video leads one to contemplate the changes that could be brought to our economic, social, political, and personal lifestyles. The implications swarm in my head like a top bar hive of bees. The potential effects of this simple planting system form complex links to everything, everywhere. Now , try finding a pamphlet like that at the local Extension Center or on the label of any Monsanto product. Getting people to give up their convenient , modulated , easy way of living and take the quantum leap is the biggest obstacle. I think successful models in every human settlement with tried and true localized educational material and teachers are more important than whether or not someone is a hippy or hippy hybrid. By the way , Hippies need love and permaculture too. I feel equally at home entering a camp with a rainbow colored OHM flag as I do entering one with Waylon Jennings music blasting from the open doors of a pickup truck.

I think the real question here is what is your goal vs what's in a name? It's PERMAnet agriCULTURE. My personal goal is to spread the word on the ease of growing clean, shelving the Sevin Dust, GMOs & Round-Up. For whatever reason, I've somehow gotten on the Church (literally) Circuit since the 'Hot Topic" around here is "Healing God's Earth". I am not a structured church goer, but if this platform allows me to show people how to grow clean & sustainably then I'm all about it. It's seems that this healthy & healing approach is quickly decending to the word of "Wall Street Speak" where only the insiders have any idea what the hell is being discussed. Green, Purple, Brown - truly who cares as long as the end result is helping our planet and ourselves to a healthier, cleaner way of life. For me - "Growing Like Grandma" removes the barrier between us and them, makes a permie approach all warm and fuzzy and fills up the seats. Our ancestors HAD to work with what this planet gave them - their survival depended on it and obviously it worked and worked very well.....if it didn't NONE of us would be here today. Personally I don't care what the hell it's called - Biodynamics, Permaculture, Sustainable Growing, Growing Like Grandma (or great, great grandma), Smart Farming, Clean Growing or my personal favorite - KISS aka Keep It Simply Stupid. Maybe this discussion should consider KISS.

Craig Dobbelyu wrote:

Danielle Venegas wrote:I have to admit I have a hard time taking the knowledge of some permie people in when they do not look like people I could respect overly much. I sit here in heels and a well tailored dress thinking and planning my land in permaculture. Sometimes I feed my chickens in these heels and this dress. No one would associate my appearance with the concept of permaculture. That is probably the problem. If we want the message to reach the people it needs to reach we really need to dress it up in a package they can accept. I try to get over my appearance bias but it can be hard. I hope that doing what I do the way I look will help broaden the minds of those who come to see what I've done.

Could you please elaborate on this? I like the idea of dressing the part. And I know that there are lots of different demographics that need some permie love. I'd like to hear more about how we might better project our message though demographic awareness.

I'm of the mind that there's few "corporate suits" that are going to be impressed by barefoot "hipsters". It clearly goes the other way too. So how might we make the inroads to get the message to those least likely to want to hear it from our current platform?

Or... did I miss your point?

I just saw this and there are plenty of people Danielle that lived on the fence between the "suit" and soil. I was a suit that played in the dirt until 6 years ago and I hopped off of the fence and landed in the dirt full time. Perhaps, that's an advantage in my being able to spread the word to folks donning heels, after all that was the norm for me for 25 years. I gotta tell you that it's pretty fun to stand in front of a group of people in a meeting and tell them that I am a farmer

I don't know...I think it would be really unfair and just a bit ironic if permaculture's success or failure depended on what folks were wearing or not wearing.
The last time I put much thought into what others were wearing was hitching cross country and only accepting rides with others who looked like me . Over years I have learned NOT to make any quick assumptions about anyone by what their clothes look like.
I think that judging anyone by their clothes in a fashion sense especially seem off the mark for forwarding permacultures principles.
I think dropping stereotypes in general and their assumed characteristics would be more productive. I agree with what someone above said about infighting being counterproductive.

I think that IF it became a clothes horse sort of game....I would be checking out labels to see who was supporting sweatshops and bad manufacturing processes....synthetics....really important issues on my mind.....

the movie 'The Point' I love it.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Xl50qKVkqE

Judith Browning wrote:I don't know...I think it would be really unfair and just a bit ironic if permaculture's success or failure depended on what folks were wearing or not wearing.
The last time I put much thought into what others were wearing was hitching cross country and only accepting rides with others who looked like me . Over years I have learned NOT to make any quick assumptions about anyone by what their clothes look like.
I think that judging anyone by their clothes in a fashion sense especially seem off the mark for forwarding permacultures principles.
I think dropping stereotypes in general and their assumed characteristics would be more productive. I agree with what someone above said about infighting being counterproductive.

I think that IF it became a clothes horse sort of game....I would be checking out labels to see who was supporting sweatshops and bad manufacturing processes....synthetics....really important issues on my mind.....

I think it's naïve to believe your appearance doesn't have an impact on how your message is received.

Just to clarify where I'm coming from: I don't think the issue of one's "look" is a problem for permies. For the most part I'm comfortable in the idea that we're all ok with how people look as long as they've got their shit together permaculture-wise. A lot of us have learned to look past that sort of trivial stuff, but some of the people we are trying to reach have not.

I think it's more of an issue for non-permies who are turned off by the (I'll regret this) "Classic Permie Look". What I mean is that if permies want to make inroads into the types of markets that REALLY have sway with the "masses", then we might have to dress the part.

I'm certainly NOT the face of permaculture. I more or less dress like a homeless person and often revert back to sailor talk when in the company of adults. That being said, I clean up real nice and can be just pleasant as pie if the occasion warrants it. I even have some clothes without holes or stains. I think this is mostly because I'd rather buy a tree than a new pair of pants. But that's just me.

I like the idea that there are folks with many looks in many realms working to put the permaculture message forward. There's many styles of permaculture and so we should expect just as many styles of permies. The key I suppose is that we need to find those groups of people that we can most influence without alienating them first by "first impressions".

Just as an example: Peak moment tv has a video about a community by and for homeless people. There is some good info in there but how many people are going to take them as seriously as they should with this particular spokesperson? Could they have reached a bigger audience by making some changes in the presentation?



Just some food for thought

Danielle Venegas wrote:I have to admit I have a hard time taking the knowledge of some permie people in when they do not look like people I could respect overly much. I sit here in heels and a well tailored dress thinking and planning my land in permaculture. Sometimes I feed my chickens in these heels and this dress. No one would associate my appearance with the concept of permaculture. That is probably the problem. If we want the message to reach the people it needs to reach we really need to dress it up in a package they can accept. I try to get over my appearance bias but it can be hard. I hope that doing what I do the way I look will help broaden the minds of those who come to see what I've done.

Your going to get a crowd who will say that first impressions make little impact but this is a learned behavior. I think if we are truthful with ourselves then we should acknowledge a natural human tendency and its merits. We all do it, its human nature and we do it because it has some degree of truth statistically. Nature believed it, gave us these tendencies and I believe in it too. It's not always correct but it works.

Marianne Cicala wrote:

Craig Dobbelyu wrote:

Danielle Venegas wrote:I have to admit I have a hard time taking the knowledge of some permie people in when they do not look like people I could respect overly much. I sit here in heels and a well tailored dress thinking and planning my land in permaculture. Sometimes I feed my chickens in these heels and this dress. No one would associate my appearance with the concept of permaculture. That is probably the problem. If we want the message to reach the people it needs to reach we really need to dress it up in a package they can accept. I try to get over my appearance bias but it can be hard. I hope that doing what I do the way I look will help broaden the minds of those who come to see what I've done.

Could you please elaborate on this? I like the idea of dressing the part. And I know that there are lots of different demographics that need some permie love. I'd like to hear more about how we might better project our message though demographic awareness.

I'm of the mind that there's few "corporate suits" that are going to be impressed by barefoot "hipsters". It clearly goes the other way too. So how might we make the inroads to get the message to those least likely to want to hear it from our current platform?

Or... did I miss your point?

I just saw this and there are plenty of people Danielle that lived on the fence between the "suit" and soil. I was a suit that played in the dirt until 6 years ago and I hopped off of the fence and landed in the dirt full time. Perhaps, that's an advantage in my being able to spread the word to folks donning heels, after all that was the norm for me for 25 years. I gotta tell you that it's pretty fun to stand in front of a group of people in a meeting and tell them that I am a farmer

I think there are a lot of people like us. The people I'm thinking about needing to hear this message though, the big farmers, they aren't suits. They're jeans and button up shirts but they are pretty rigid. They go to Church and love their family and farm like they've always been farming and they see nothing wrong with it. I'd personally love to see the fields surrounding me changed to permaculture but I don't see how that is going to happen unless we can reach those farmers. I'm hoping to do it by both showing the success of my farm and opening up to schools so I can reach their children, who are going to take over the family business eventually. I think I can do it.

I should say that this is my knowledge of my area. We are friends with a great many large scale farmers and ranchers here. Our life views match up pretty well except I have different ideas on the land than they do. Plus I am in a business that is pretty appearance focused so maybe I put more thought into it than a lot of people. Or perhaps I am just more aware of it than many people. After all, we've had juries tell us that the reason they decided what they did was because the expert on one side's shoes were shined. It's the little things that validate the message one is trying to get out.

I think it's naïve to believe your appearance doesn't have an impact on how your message is received.

I really do love diversity....who's to decide what is the correct appearance for pemaculture velocity? I like the idea of everyone doing what they can when they can and how they can while being true to themselves.
I think that permaculture, as in many socially aware movements, has space to allow for diversity in it's followers just as we all love diversity in our food forests (as an example).

Judith Browning wrote:

I think it's naïve to believe your appearance doesn't have an impact on how your message is received.

I really do love diversity....who's to decide what is the correct appearance for pemaculture velocity? I like the idea of everyone doing what they can when they can and how they can while being true to themselves.
I think that permaculture, as in many socially aware movements, has space to allow for diversity in it's followers just as we all love diversity in our food forests (as an example).

Nothing wrong with diversity. I'm certainly not advocating for a mold everyone needs to fill. I'm simply saying that the message could go a lot farther if there were a variety of different messengers with a variety of different appearances. Something for everyone.

Judith Browning wrote:....who's to decide what is the correct appearance for permaculture velocity?

I don't disagree with most of your narrative. What I am asking is not what is politically just but what is practical and sustainable. How can I decide for people how they should judge a credible source for information? Appearances do have value in the language of unspoken words. I think it's an uphill battle in the quest to communicate the idea of sustainability if we choose to present ourselves as the trendy counterculture instead of knowledgeable professionals.

Nothing wrong with diversity. I'm certainly not advocating for a mold everyone needs to fill. I'm simply saying that the message could go a lot farther if there were a variety of different messengers with a variety of different appearances. Something for everyone.

That is an excellent thought....I think what was bothering me was that what I thought I was hearing said was... that many of those who are out there promoting permaculture 'should' change....when in reality we just need more folks out there from all walks of life as you say

Amedean Messan wrote:

Judith Browning wrote:....who's to decide what is the correct appearance for permaculture velocity?

I don't disagree with most of your narrative. What I am asking is not what is politically just but what is practical and sustainable. How can I decide for people how they should judge a credible source for information? Appearances do have value in the language of unspoken words. I think it's an uphill battle in the quest to communicate the idea of sustainability if we choose to present ourselves as the trendy counterculture instead of knowledgeable professionals.

I don't see it as an either or....I think we need everyone. I don't see where the 'trendy counterculture' is preventing the 'knowledgeable professionals' from speaking out, doing videos, teaching workshops and all.

Judith Browning wrote:I don't see where the 'trendy counterculture' is preventing the 'knowledgeable professionals' from speaking out, doing videos, teaching workshops and all.

I can explain this one easily. Imagine I am a virgin young mind browsing the internet for information on a new word called "permaculture" I read from an article online. Then this video pops up on my search results from Google:



Then I think to myself after watching the video, "WOW, permaculture is a weird cult of sex-crazed, pot-smoking idiot hippies rolling around in the mud"! Guess what, that presentation just created a negative bias against the word permaculture. This also made it slightly/much harder for the teachings of permaculture to penetrate this young mind in the future. Now the teacher has to first overcome negative stereotypes to explain that this is not a fools counterculture, it is common sense.

Sadly, this happens potentially millions of times a day....

Then I think to myself after watching the video, "WOW, permaculture is a bunch of sex-crazed, pot-smoking idiot hippies rolling around in the mud"! Guess what, that presentation just created a negative bias against the word permaculture. This also made it slightly/much harder for the teachings of permaculture to penetrate this young mind in the future.

and this could be just the community that they are looking for

There is all kinds of misleading information on the web. I think along with that video many other more 'mainstream' videos and information on permaculture might show up also.
I typed 'permaculture' into yahoo and this was first up http://permacultureprinciples.com/
and the first video was Alex Ojeda a permie



There is room for everyone.

Amedean Messan wrote:

Judith Browning wrote:I don't see where the 'trendy counterculture' is preventing the 'knowledgeable professionals' from speaking out, doing videos, teaching workshops and all.

I can explain this one easily. Imagine I am a virgin young mind browsing the internet for information on a new word called "permaculture" I read from an article online. Then this video pops up on my search results from Google:

Then I think to myself after watching the video, "WOW, permaculture is a weird cult of sex-crazed, pot-smoking idiot hippies rolling around in the mud"! Guess what, that presentation just created a negative bias against the word permaculture. This also made it slightly/much harder for the teachings of permaculture to penetrate this young mind in the future. Now the teacher has to first overcome negative stereotypes to explain that this is not a fools counterculture, it is common sense.

Sadly, this happens potentially millions of times a day....

I search youtube for permie videos all the time and this video ALWAYS pops up. I haven't watched it yet. lol

Judith Browning wrote:
There is all kinds of misleading information on the web. I think along with that video many other more 'mainstream' videos and information on permaculture might show up also.

And that is the saving grace in my mind because for every metaphysical/spiritual/cultish permaculture video on the net, there are 50 clean-cut professional looking teachers out there projecting the idea that "yes, we are not the counterculture, we are comon sense and somebody you can trust".

this conversation draws me in.....I love trying to understand how people think.
The group in the mud could easily be college students or woodstock..........is that the part that bothers? or the spiritual parts in the film? We don't have to watch just because it is out there. I prefer to pick and choose. I am not very 'purple' although I wish I was more so a lot of times...very grounded in the earth, I am. Should those folks stop expressing themselves or be made to stop using the word 'permaculture' to describe what they do? I think the film is a good example of the 'purple' part that bothers some. I happen to enjoy it thoroughly. Again, I love diversity in permaculture.

Judith Browning wrote:Should those folks stop expressing themselves or be made to stop using the word 'permaculture' to describe what they do?

Good question! I think maintaining an image of mainstream professionalism is about maintaining credibility in the eyes of the public. It is an emerging professional society. I am of the same opinion as Bill Mollison and Geoff Lawton on that and I will quote (3:23):

Geoff Lawton: The reason that teachers were registered, why there was a teachers registration mainly put up is cause some teachers were missing out subjects, particularly earthworks and some teachers were teaching metaphysics.
Bill Mollison: And some people will teach you theory.
Geoff Lawton: So we are about science and ethics...
Bill Mollison: Horror....
Geoff Lawton: ...and not metaphysics. The unproven sciences will discredit and dilute our system.

My interpretation of their language is that they are communicating one element that is important. Making permaculture more mainstream using the credibility of science in the brand of permaculture is critical for their system, but for our discussion so is the mainstream appearance. I do not see either dressed unprofessionally or out of the ordinary. Based from their appearance or language they should not project a sense from a passing first impression as any sort of counter-culture. They speak and look like advocates for common sense.

I think I am finding out that I am more purple than I thought

It is an emerging professional society. I am of the same opinion as Bill Mollison and geoff lawton on that and I will quote:

Geoff Lawton: The reason that teachers were registered, why there was a teachers registration mainly put up is cause some teachers were missing out subjects, particularly earthworks and some teachers were teaching metaphysics.
Bill Mollison: And some people will teach you theory.
Geoff Lawton: So we are about science and ethics...
Bill Mollison: Horror....
Geoff Lawton: ...and not metaphysics. The unproven sciences will discredit and dilute our system.

What I think I see though is that the 'problem is the solution' fits perfectly here. Those who think that there are too many 'purple' thinking videos/websites out there, have a wonderful opportunity to flood the web with what they see as appropriate information.
I don't ever see this large a movement having a one size fits all approach. peace

Amedean Messan wrote: Geoff Lawton: So we are about science and ethics...

This sentence always struck me as funny - because if you look at many "ethics" they are based on what some would consider some pretty purple thinking. For example some might thing that "care of the Earth" is impossibly purple especially vis-à-vis capitalism/constant growth which is the mindset that drives many peoples' ethics in this culture.

With regard to how one looks/dresses - I agree that we need to reach a diversity of people and plant the seed of permaculture in their minds. If you look a certain way and interact with various circles of people - by all means go forth and plant those permaculture seeds where you flourish!

Most of us have a little bit of chameleon in us and can look the look and talk the talk of a couple of different groups. Some of us go out of our way to connect to diverse groups and consciously tune our look, language and approach to match those we are interacting with. I do this all the time - but then again I grew up on 4 continents, spoke three languages and was taught in a variety of schools, including religious ones.

I work with several different groups here in Phoenix - water harvesting, community gardens, permaculture. Many times we work with religious institutions. I am a "free thinker". If I think my normal look would not fly for a particular group, I find out what would and dress and act appropriately. This is why I tend not to use "fuck" in teaching videos, etc. Not that I don't use it in my personal life. Oddly I have a very large following of very devout religious folks here in town.

I just did a little YouTube searching and played with the sorting of the videos relevant to the word "permaculture".

Without filters I get a lot of really good stuff. Toby Hemenway, Geoff Lawton, Grow Your Greens, Paul Wheaton.

Filtering by rating you get Toby and Larry Santoyo among other informative videos

Filtering by view count you get some permie mormons then Paul's channel then the Mud People followed by Jon D Liu, Sepp and Geoff. A video by Paul doesn't come up until 12th on the list.

The Mud People have about 900,000 views. Paul's video with Ernie and Erica and the RMH has 950,000 yet showed up nowhere in the search results no matter what parameters I filtered it by. Figure that huh?

I'll also point out that a provocative video thumbnail and lots of search tags does have better chances at getting a view. But still... Mud People! Really?

I don't understand why convincing a bunch of people who till and spray round-up on large acres is the most important focus for permaculture marketing . Having millions of individuals on small plots of land growing their own food and creating energy on site will alter the agricultural dynamics forever. A guy with a $450,000 John Deere and 1500 acres would be a little archaic at that point. Struck at the root , so to speak. But around here , if you wanted to dress up to preach at the farmers - a pair of overalls and a bill cap will go a long way. You could even wear a cap that says "Fuck Monsanto".

Jennifer Wadsworth wrote:This sentence always struck me as funny - because if you look at many "ethics" they are based on what some would consider some pretty purple thinking.

When I read on permaculture ethics there is a recurring theme and it does not appear to me to be based on religious beliefs or emotional relativism as much as it is on the theory of mutual benefit. This reminds me of a game theory concept that is mathematical model. Deadlock is a component of game theory which describes how mutual benefit is dominant to mutual exclusivity because it removes conflict.

wayne stephen wrote:I don't understand why convincing a bunch of people who till and spray round-up on large acres is the most important focus for permaculture marketing . Having millions of individuals on small plots of land growing their own food and creating energy on site will alter the agricultural dynamics forever. A guy with a $450,000 John Deere and 1500 acres would be a little archaic at that point. Struck at the root , so to speak. But around here , if you wanted to dress up to preach at the farmers - a pair of overalls and a bill cap will go a long way. You could even wear a cap that says "Fuck Monsanto".

I'd come hang out with you without hesitation. The farmer you mentioned has no reason (in his mind) to make any changes. But the 100 of Thousand people spraying round-up around their yard, spreading sevin dust, fungicides and other toxic gick may just listen. Shoot, I'll take it 1 yard at a time to let people know just how great permaculture is!!!

I think that a lot of our potential gain is in people who live in the country, probably didn't go to or graduate from college, and are likely sympathetic with preppers and the tea party. They figure they can grow a garden, fish or work on their car. A lot of people at our Home Orchard Society events feel kind of uncomfortable when someone with expensive clothes starts using $100 words, talking about arugula and belgian endive, and $100 per plate dinners. Many want to grow food cheaply. If they can be convinced that it will taste better and not be a pain, they will probably do it. They are probably more accepting of someone in jeans and a t-shirt than someone in a suit. They feel more comfortable learning from someone who is a regular person, so they think, "if he/she could do it, so could I." They don't want to be in a hobby where you're competing to see who is more prestigious/successful/better than everyone else. I think most of them feel uncomfortable around yuppies.

Just my two cents.
John S
PDX OR

Seems pretty obvious that the general consensus here about the "purple" vs "brown" question is YES. I love that!

I think we need to be careful not to alienate people by bashing their personal lifestyles, religions, and philosophies. This Brown vs. Purple debate is much like the debate over the separation of church and state. In nations where state and church are separate both function more diversely and powerfully. So, you have Gay Athiest Republicans and Catholic Democrats who believe homosexuality is a carnal sin participating in a secular function we call democracy. Permaculture is science and art. We need not attach any philosophy to it but those that live by religious or ethical philosophies can participate. I think there is nothing wrong with a bunch of hippies getting together and OHMing the night away , forming drum circles, and then learning/ practicing permaculture. The same is true of those that form permie groups out of churches, synagogues, mosques, or politically based organizations. The debated mud people video seems to show a solid Mollison PDC with quite a bit of purple recreation and Aquarian bonding through hugs. The guy in the blue t-shirt is the teacher not the Hare Krishna Guy, right? These same mud people probably would have issues with Christian Creationist Bob Jones University Graduates{Salatin} and their take on permaculture. If you are a Christian and holding a PDC at your church is it OK to pray before the class? Is it OK to believe God created the world in 6 days and still hold a science based PDC? Are you Buddhist? Atheist? I believe it is possible to have any belief and still practice permie science . Does Geoff Lawton pray with muslims when he teaches in their lands? Everyone has a philosophical lens they see the world through.

Marianne Cicala wrote:Seems pretty obvious that the general consensus here about the "purple" vs "brown" question is YES. I love that!

I know I am being dense, Marianne, but what is the question to which the answer is "YES" ? I think this is too small a sampling of folks to decide anything either way by consensus I think it is a discussion that will be ongoing............

Morning Judith
The question, as I took it, was the concern of some visible teachers & practitioners dropping the term "permaculture" because it has an assumed wrapper of fairy dust. These folks (teachers) have obviously hit a brick wall getting in front of their desired audiences and I get that. Dan is in VA today, partnered up with VA Biological Farmers and VSU to present his keyline practices - the title of his presentation is purely academic without any hope of watching him "shoot rainbows out of his ass". Is this a problem for the spreading of permaculture philosophy? Should there be a subtitle of sort between purple perm & brown?
This small forum, underscores 1 of the basics of permaculture - there are no steadfast rules - there's not any 1 way to do something or better put a Mono-culture of participants and that is what I say YES to - this wonderful mix of people is a great example of the polyculture we all embrace. so YES - this is not a problem, it is the solution! This forum, and many other permaculture forum celebrate the essence of Permaculture and if subtitles assist in users' filtering for what may appeal to them - go for it.

This, I think, was Paul's original question from his first post in this thread....

The color that is the opposite of purple is yellow. And dark yellow is brown. I suppose one could say that there is a spectrum of color between utter purple and utter brown. Everybody keen on permaculture is somewhere one this spectrum. Some are in the middle, some are very purple and some are very brown. I think I'm on the very brown side.

I don't like the idea of excluding folks from permaculture. And, at the same time, if I utter the word to farmers, a lot of them refuse to talk about it because "how is blowing rainbows out my ass going to make me more money?" So they stick to the monsanto package.

I wonder: with this tool, can we better embrace permaculture? Rather than dropping the word, can we say that some people are more purple, and others are more brown? Can we then say "this conference is a bit on the purple side" or "this conference is very brown." So that people can have some idea what they might be getting into?

I'm hoping that this spectrum tool can help so that there are fewer people that will reject permaculture as a whole because there exists a permaculture person/book/event that is on the other side of the spectrum.

Marianne Cicala wrote:Morning Judith
The question, as I took it, was the concern of some visible teachers & practitioners dropping the term "permaculture" because it has an assumed wrapper of fairy dust. These folks (teachers) have obviously hit a brick wall getting in front of their desired audiences and I get that. Dan is in VA today, partnered up with VA Biological Farmers and VSU to present his keyline practices - the title of his presentation is purely academic without any hope of watching him "shoot rainbows out of his ass". Is this a problem for the spreading of permaculture philosophy? Should there be a subtitle of sort between purple perm & brown?
This small forum, underscores 1 of the basics of permaculture - there are no steadfast rules - there's not any 1 way to do something or better put a Mono-culture of participants and that is what I say YES to - this wonderful mix of people is a great example of the polyculture we all embrace. so YES - this is not a problem, it is the solution! This forum, and many other permaculture forum celebrate the essence of Permaculture and if subtitles assist in users' filtering for what may appeal to them - go for it.

I think we were posting at the same time...well said.

wayne stephen wrote:Does Geoff Lawton pray with muslims when he teaches in their lands?

Actually, Geoff is Muslim.