I just dropped the price of
the permaculture playing cards
for a wee bit.

 

 

uses include:
- infecting brains with permaculture
- convincing folks that you are not crazy
- gift giving obligations
- stocking stuffer
- gambling distraction
- an hour or two of reading
- find the needle
- find the 26 hidden names

clickity-click-click

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vegans even 'sort of' - lets talk -  RSS feed

 
Carol Grosser
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Tyler Ludens wrote:
Carol Grosser wrote: I struggle on here alone in a land where people are clueless on permaculture.


Not entirely!



Yes, I believe we know each other! In fact, it was one of your e-mails to a local e-mail group exchange that caused me to reach this site and for years, your interest in permaculture finally took hold on me. For a long time, I, being of peasant stock, frowned on permaculture because the cost of seminars and the basic text was so high. I thought it was just another money raising scheme on something that had to be free for everyone given the urgent need for people to change their lifestyle and return to the peasant lifestyle of the 19th century that I grew up in from the later settlers of Central Texas. Financially, we were way behind the earlier settlers of the 17th and 18th century that came here to rob the Indians of their land. After understanding more of the drought-protective effects of permaculture, I am now in, an admirer and student of it. I just looked at your projects and they are truly impressive!

I have only one project--planting fruit trees and growing my own food. I still keep goats and chickens.

I will continue on my fruitarian 80/10/10 diet as best I can the rest of my life, which now is probably better than the genetic/food choice lifetime of my nearest blood relatives, previously around 72. I am 68 now and plan on living, actively, to 100. Although I have expanded the lifestyle of my peasant parents, I will always remember their courage and wisdom in surviving a get-rich-quick world. Both of them were ethical in their treatment of the land they had, which was 635 acres, and the animals their livelihood depended upon. The land I have is because of their sacrifice. I am leaving most of it to nature except for building rock terraces on downslopes whenever I can. But for now, I am concentrating on the high-fenced area to determine the depth of the topsoil before it gets to solid bedrock. I may not be able to plant as many fruit trees as I wish. The only option would be to put an orchard in the bottom with a thick depth of mineral-rich topsoil. I do have the piping for irrigation there as well. The limiting factor though is ground water and how much will be available in the seemingly endless drought. My family survived the 1950s drought of central Texas, but just barely. I might have to return to meat, eggs, and goat's milk, but I have more energy and health without meat and hope that I don't have to.
 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
Posts: 9744
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
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I've been building areas up with hugelkultur in which to plant trees in thin soil areas, so you might want to look into that.

 
Carol Grosser
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My plans for the high fenced area is as follows: Dig to a depth of 12 inches if possible. If I meet bedrock before that, then I will place rock-filtered soil back to a depth of 12 inches where appropriate, I will build a rock retaining wall on the down slope side to hold that topsoil. Where the bedrock is bowled, I will dig it out to make it a small collecting pond. I will work on also adding wood as possible as a foundation on the beds I create. I have to read more in this forum to determine if I can use Ashe juniper wood or not for decomposing, but it will work to hold soil. I also have to research fruit tree root depth and requirements. I planted two apple trees fairly near each other. The one tree survived, but the other died this year. I have to dig out that area and see if it is bedrock. The trees are about 20 feet apart from each other. Two peach trees lower on the slope are doing well, although one is much larger than the other on the same slope. So I have learned I really have to dig out the area before planting fruit trees, not just the standard given for fruit trees.
 
Phillip James
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Hi everyone!

First post, but have been lurking for a bit. Found this place after watching paulwheaton's video with helen atthowe. It is great to see other vegans that are into permaculture (as I only have one vegan permaculture friend) - and those growing with veganic or plant based methods, like green manures, living mulches and even hugelkultur. Have been vegan for a few years now and grow in a plant based way as well. I tell people that one can't consume meat and be concerned about the environment at the same time, however permaculturalists are exempt from this as they do so in a sustainable and respectful way. I too will have some chickens for my place at some stage...just like I a pet that can work in the garden, however I won't be killing them when they don't work as much just like I won't put my dog down when he doesn't want to fetch as much. I don't see a problem with animals in a permaculture system, allowing them to fulfil their desires and utilise that for our benefit.

 
Greta Fields
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Carol, If you find this post: I acqauired a "blank page": virus when I first got on this web-site, and I could not reply to your post, about living on a farm as a vegan. You are right, the artificially enlarged deer population does feed a lot of predators. And yes, people have some features of predators and some of vegetarians...teeth for both types of eating.
I am vegetarian by choice, leaning to vegan. If I had goatrs, I might make cheese, but would not slaughter the goats, for ex.
I am sorry, I lost the thread of this conversation. SThe blank pages went away finally. It is some sort of ad ertising ruse. You have to read their ads to get rid of the pages, or wait awhile, or something. Greta
 
Mori no Niwa
Posts: 27
Location: Van Buren Co., MI
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Hello all,
I haven't visited these forums in a while, they've really broken them into specialized topics, which is handy for finding likeminded/nearby people or specific information. I'm in a small town in Southwest Michigan (cold end of zone 6) and have a 3-acre forest garden in the works, along with a 1/5 acre yard around my house (a mile distant from the forest garden). I've been veg for 20 years and vegan for 15, into Permaculture for 5-6 years now. I'm hoping to replace more of my staple foods with nuts and other perennial carbohydrates in years to come as the "mast" trees I've planted start bearing. Also looking forward to eating more fresh and dried fruit, growing some grains/beans on a smallish scale, and doing more foraging for wild foods as my site develops.

I've had some permie friends get pretty defensive/dismissive around topics of animals / veganism. We can all agree that factory farms and industrial agriculture are bad, so that's a good starting point. While I don't agree with killing animals for food, I have much more respect for people who keep and kill their own animals, or hunt, than the average person who buys fast-food/supermarket meat. Glad to see that there are more of us out there!
PJ
 
Blaine Lindsey
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hey people! Its so great to see so many fellow vegetarians/vegans on here! Ive read this thread and hello to you each! much love and light to you, & of course to all on this site! Our passion for permaculture and sustainable living is a precious gem in the rough and no matter your diet, our earth-friendly lifestyles are bringing much healing and rejuvination into the world! Ive been meat-free for about 3 years now, never take supplements, 100& organic/non gmo, much wild foods, and have been on a diet/nutrition journey ever since that first day! Ive transitioned from all the levels haha! junk-food vegetarian- gourmet vegetarian-vegan-raw vegan- 80/10/10 fruitarian. But right around there i got really into growing my own food and permaculture, and after much insight and soulsearching i transitioned finally to what I call Living Foodist. Basically a Fruitarian/ Vegan in every way but incorporating organic/ artisan/ raw goat milk and beehive products as the fruits of the animal kingdom).I strongly believe though, in true animal husbandry, helping the goat be so healthy that it milk is sweet and nutritious, with more than enough for its kids, biodynamic beekeeping, extracting honey only seldomely, influencing specific honey flavors and/or active manuka honeys with certain plants. fermenting the raw dairy into kefir, the raw honey into honey mead. Also a main staple of my diet is sprouted ancient grains, everything from the coconut plant, hemp. I also believe that landrace cannabis in its original integrity( ina virgin forest) should be a main staple of human diet. I would love to have goats, bees, chickens, pigs, all kinds of animals ina permaculture setting, but would never eat them, creating symbiotic relationships with the animals that help us both thrive. any in th SF bay area let me know, we could start upa local weekly vegan potluck/ spark a local permaculture project!
 
Mavie Bucy
Posts: 10
Location: High Plains of Southeastern Colorado, Zone 6a
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I guess I've been from one extreme to the other. I was raised in an average American diet, meat came wrapped in saran from the grocery store. As I grew up I formed my most annoying quality, I question everything. Where does the meat come from? Then my second most annoying quality, I want to try it myself.

It didn't take long for me to go from, hunting, fishing, and butchering my livestock, until I was "not that hungry". Although with children, I wanted to have well balanced meals (back in the four-square-meals-a-day time period), but I also wanted them to learn the reality, that meat doesn't just grow in styrofoam trays. From their early teens they were brought up with little meat, mainly lacto-ovo vegetarian.

We raised dairy goats and chickens for eggs. We had meat rabbits off and on. And when dairy goats have male kids, well they turn into bucks, and they are hard to get milk from. My children learned the reality of mating, birthing, raising, butchering, dressing, cooking, and eating meat products.

So for me, it was a gradual thing. I'm allergic to eggs, but I kept dairy in my diet for many years. I have been lacto-vegetarian over seven years. We sold off the last of our livestock about five years ago.

In the last year or two we have eaten mainly rice, lentils, vegetables, fruits, non-GMO soybeans, I make soymilk, soy cheese, and tofu. I guess it seems plain and boring, but we like the simplicity of our diet. We don't buy meat, eggs, or dairy products. I recently got marshmallows, a rare once a year thing. I completely spaced the gelatin.

When the last kid flew the coop, four years ago, my husband and I just drifted away from foods with animal products. We also stopped buying pre-packaged foods. In the last few years we've become more aware of the industrial treatment of animals. Until now, where we question the animal use in most everything.

But! We have six dogs, and they eat meat products, they have a lot of our "leftovers" which leads them to be semi-vegetarian. When a friend has a deer, antelope, rabbit, or cow, we get the scraps for the dogs.

Another, But! We just bought silk long johns and wool socks. I wrestled with this for weeks. I knew it was coming, that we needed them, but I couldn't find something non-animal that would fit our criteria. I will be better prepared for a non-animal option in the future as I'm still searching options.

So I'm not vegan. I guess I'm "intentional". I think long and hard on what I'm doing, what I'm buying, if I really need it. We have become very minimalistic since the kids left home. I hate buying anything, and I sure don't want an animal involved if I can avoid it.
 
Lisa Paulson
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I could be described as being a high raw diet omnivore who follows no rigid diet or belief system pertaining to this . I wanted to mention I recently defended this forum to someone in that vegan interests are part of permaculture and animals do not neccesarily have to be represented in permaculture systems as being exploited for food in order to have a role in permaculture . I hope vegans and vegetarians feel respected for their ideas here as integral to the idea and existance of permaculture as those who do chose to be omnivores .
 
kevin hale
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I went vegan for health. Been very happy with results. Honey is the only product I still purchase and use. I see no down side eating honey or supporting Bee keepers.
 
Cohan Fulford
Posts: 79
Location: West Central Alberta, Canada
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Hey all- nice to see this topic here
I've been vegetarian for something like 35 years, since I was 14. Growing up on a mixed farm, I could never make that handy distinction between pets and animals we eat! So I quit eating meat but continued with dairy and eggs to varying degrees over the years.
Recently I read Eat to Live by Joel Fuhrmann (this is a great one to read for some facts on many of the nutritional issues- he bases everything on science, and quotes a lot of studies) and decided it was time to seriously cut out a lot more of the 'treats'- my meals were generally good, but too many baked goods etc, and now I have mostly eliminated dairy, eggs, refined sugars, caffeine etc. as well as most modern wheat. Still have a few naughty things when in town, and slowly working on getting some more recipes for low fat low (no refined) sugar lower gluten baking!

As mentioned, I grew up on a farm here in Alberta, then lived away in cities for many years, just moved back here with my partner from Toronto in 2007 to help my mom, on the acreage which was once part of the family (grandparens, now uncle) farm which is beyond our 6 acres on two sides- the part near us is sometimes grazed native woodland and wetland. I've been working on some ornamental gardens (natives, alpines,woodland plants, hardy cacti and succulents etc) since I am a complete plant obsessive (tons of indoor plants too) over the last couple of years, and still am. Recently, though, I read about hugelkultur which seems a great fit for my resources here and my inclinations- I was working toward something very similar for some woodland and native plants for reasons of drainage,, windbreak, heat trapping, landscaping variety (love to get away from flat!) using leaves and branches I have lots of, etc etc. So, I've decided it's time to get back to trying to grow a lot more food. I've been looking at permaculture and forest garden ideas for a few years, but hadn't done much yet- so it's time!
Here's a thread I posted yesterday about one of the areas I'm looking at deveoping.
http://www.permies.com/t/22904/forest-garden/Project-Existing-Open-Woodland-Alberta

We don't have any animals right now, other than one indoor/outdoor cat, and 3 cats and a dog in my mom's house! Tons of bugs and wild birds, squirrels and other rodents, as well as deer and moose passing through, probably coyotes as well (for sure on the farm, and doubtless they come right into the yard). It may not be very permy of me, but I will be making some efforts to keep the deer and moose (who come in and severely prune all the fruit trees/bushes every winter) out of the parts of the acreage with food crops- they are welcome on the wild bush parts of the acreage and of course here in farming country where there is a lot of mostly and partly native vegetation pastures in wetlands and woodlands, some grazed lightly, many chunks not at all, so there is tons of food for the browsers, without my fruit ...lol I'm undecided about birds and berries- very hard to harvest any here, we have tons of wild berries, but most are eaten by birds as soon as or just before full ripeness! I may have to net those we want to harvest, but again, there will be plenty for them, including species we don't eat much if at all...
I've thought about something small for 'grass' control- we have to mow all areas we do not want to become forest, and to keep dry grass down as a fire hazard, but not ready at the moment- a problem with animals is that someone always has to be home to look after them- this is already a problem with our indoor/outdoor cat- it's not safe to leave him out over night, and heaven knows what would happen indoors if he were left in for several days if we were away, so not looking to add any other animals to make that worse right now....
I certainly don't believe that you 'must' have animal inputs to keep land healthy- there are some large animals in the forest around us, but the density is hardly such that the soils and plants could not be self sustaining without them. After all, we aren't asking whether a large natural biome can survive without large animals, just whether our managed land can remain productive without them, and certainly any pruning etc done by browsers which affects the make-up of the forest can be replaced by our activities, their 'fertilising' is very localised and/or occasional, surely replaceable with focussed use of dynamic accumulator plants, mulching and composting in general- and no doubt most of us are still bringing in some amount of outside foots which add to compost. How would a large piece of land do in perpetuity with no animal inputs- how many of us will ever find out over a period of time long enough to matter?
I do have the option, also, of bringing in manures etc from my neighbours if I need to...

In this short season climate, it would probably be hard to feed the three of us year round from what we grow here- especially without animal food, which is far and away the easiest way to raise food in this climate- and I don't know that I have the time and drive to do that much gardening on my own (mom's not much able these days, partner not at all inclined- though if we get to a point where I can grow something that makes an economic dent, that might change, a bit...lol)

I think it's good to ask all of these questions, share our feelings and experiences- I'm just not so keen on trying to pick one answer that's supposed to be right for everyone
 
Chris Kott
Posts: 944
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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bee forest garden fungi hugelkultur urban
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Hi all. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian, but a dietarily conscious, largely unrepentant omnivore. I'm very interested in the health benefits to plant-based diets, however. I am working towards the day when I can raise all the meat I eat, including the fish (I love salmon sashimi), but I feel strongly that we are responsible to provide the best life possible to animals we raise for any reason. I feel that people who derive any of their food from hunting and fishing (distinct from poaching) are, for the most part, fulfilling this as completely as possible; they are simply stepping into the role of the predators we've removed. I feel that anything that gets us away from the plague breeder that is industrial animal farming is a step in the right direction.

I don't know what category this would fall in to, but I've shifted a lot of my intake to smoothies made usually of blueberries, kale, and spinach. I guess raw? Except that I add organic milk for liquid content (glossing over that fact, I'm looking to buy into a raw milk co-op). I'd love to know what opinions on partial dietary shifts are. The whole smoothie thing is kind of a concession to convenience in itself, but it does allow me to consume much more raw organic greenery and berries in a convenient package than I otherwise could, and I have found that I'm able to go much longer without hunger (not surprising, I go through around 100g of kale or spinach each time). Are there any non-preachy, scientific sources, preferably online that I could read, to explain the biochemical points? Specifically for raw veganism, but if there's a source where a diversity of alternative diets are synopsized from a scientific standpoint, I'd love to hear about it.

I was also wondering how opinions run on the idea that people might not be allergic to the animal products they think they are, but rather to what those animals have been fed. I haven't seen any supporting studies, but it makes sense to me.

I don't agree with arguments that preach the moral superiority of veganism. All systems are animal systems, or they are sterile. As a matter of fact, if that last statement is in error, I'd love to see the completely autonomous, self-sustaining (and hopefully more than merely surviving) plant system. So would NASA, I should think; it might make their self-contained plant-based (vegan?) air filtration and oxygen systems a reality. I am glad I am not the only one to bring up the animals killed when fields are tilled. I was wondering if anyone had supporting info that refuted what I seem to remember from one of Paul's podcasts that in some "vegan" (his quotes, not mine) systems, fields were plowed up to seven times a season. If there's any truth to that, it's an argument for veganic no-till.

Do veganic gardeners do vermiculture, or is it usually more of the ruth stout method? And how do feelings run with regards to blue cheese(bacteria), or pasturization(killing everything in it), or consuming raw dairy(ingesting them instead), for those ovo/lactos out there? Also, what about fermented foods and alcohol? Or are yeasts out? What are the criteria by which it is okay to consume animals and still call oneself vegan or ovo/lacto vegetarian? Is it just a matter of size, then?

Thanks for all the interesting information already posted in this thread. It's a relief from the inundation of elitist specism that I normally encounter when I ask questions about this stuff.

Oh, and I'm sometimes blunt. Easier than dancing around. Thanks for understanding.

-CK
 
Cohan Fulford
Posts: 79
Location: West Central Alberta, Canada
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Chris, you might find the book I mentioned above- Eat to Live by Dr Joel Fuhrman, interesting. He does have a website, but you wont get a whole lot of info there without a membership. He also has other books, but I haven't read them. What I like about Eat to Live, is that he leaves any sort of emothional/ethical stance out of it (those are important components for each of us, but can cloud the issue when what you want is nutritional information) and simply discusses, based on the scientific literature and his long standing medical practise, what the truth is about a wide range of nutritional issues- how much protein do you really need? what do various fats do for you? what are the real health effects of some popular diets? etc etc
With the caveat that his findings can only be as complete as the science to date (which includes, for example, studies I think mentioned by someone earlier, of various regions in China where everyone eats more or less the same thing in a particular area, and something different in another area, so they are ideal for comparison of health effects of particular diets) and of course may have missed something here or there, it's the best synopsis I've seen so far. I've been paying attention to nutrition information for years, and there are a number of issues commonly debated on which you can find some good info to lay some of those debates to rest in this book.

In a nutshell- and I won't say too much, since my synopsis has to be lacking compared to reading the whole book, which is not expensive ( I paid around $13 at Indigo online)- his conclusion is that there is no evidence to date that eating a 100% vegan diet is healthier than eating a mostly vegan diet- he recommends that 90% of your diet by calories, come from unprocessed plant foods, with the bulk of that being greens and other veg about half and half raw and cooked, second largest group fruits, a significantly smaller amount from minimally processed grains and potatoes etc, a still smaller amount from seeds and nuts, things like avocadoes (note: his primary constituency has been very unhealthy and/or obese people, so high calorie food even if healthy is kept limited, he notes for those without weight issues, and children etc, more seeds and nuts is likely needed) with almost no processed oil - you get your needed fats from whole seeds/nuts/ avocadoes etc. Salt is mostly eliiminated, obviously no refined sugar, and very limited use of things like honey or date sugar, etc.
Any animal food consumed is recommended to be kept within the 10% left over.-- remember it's 10% by calories, not volume!- again, I can only give a rough outline, none of it can fully make sense without reading his full arguments with backing studies.

Interestingly, he quotes studies which show that some of the ill health effects of animal foods are not simply due to fats but also to the protein itself.

The issues of naturally /sustainably produced animal products vs the clearly unhealthy factory products are not specifically dealt with- you'd have to look at some of the individual studies- eg Chinese population data- to see if you can learn what sort of animal products were being consumed. But obviously I agree with you that naturally raised animals seem likely to yield less damaging products and in any case much better for the planet and all of us on it!Also, I've always had much more respect from those who actually produce their own meat than those who couldn't possibly kill an animal themselves but have no qualms about someone else doing it out of sight..

I forgot to add- he calls his dietary approach 'nutritarian' where the concern is to eat as much as possible foods which have a high ratio of nutrients to calorie.
 
Wyll Greenewood
Posts: 32
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As a newcomer here I find it rewarding to see a thread like this. I too am 'vegan' if I fully understand that term as used, have been for 15 years, vegetarian for 28 years and my current age is 64. Am I alone when I say "I wish I had started much earlier"?
A question I have for anyone here:
Is there a consensus on whether honey and eggs are truly considered acceptable in a vegan system?
 
Cohan Fulford
Posts: 79
Location: West Central Alberta, Canada
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Hi Wyll
Not sure how much consensus you will get in anything diet and food related
For sure there will be clusters of people with certain sets of criteria, but many other clusters of different ideas.
As to your question, I think you`d need to identify your motivation:

For example, on the nutritarian approach outlined above, the view is practical, based on nutrition alone- by that view, eggs would be kept to a minimum as being animal protein which (according to citations in the book I mentioned) is damaging to health at any significant amount- so one or two once a week or less. Honey still being a sugar would likewise be kept limited.

Another person might look at the handling of the animals and might say eggs free range sustainably raised chickens would be okay, and similar for natural honey from naturally raised bees (I have no idea whether there are unnaturally raised bees). (clearly it`s not much of a leap from here to sustainable dairy, though that again comes with its own set of nutritional debates)

Yet another might object to the subjugation of any animals to human servitude regardless of nutritional issues or cultural modifications...
 
Wyll Greenewood
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Cohan,

Your words are of value, thank you for your input.
Your point about animal subjugation is well taken, however I do not believe that bees in their hives and a bee keeper working with them is subjugation, ditto hens and eggs, IF a humane praxis is observed.
I worked with the bee keeper while at boarding school and my dad used to run chickens so i do have a degree of personal experience.

Oh yes, I enjoyed your larger post above,

Wyll
 
Cohan Fulford
Posts: 79
Location: West Central Alberta, Canada
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Thanks, Wyll. I'd pretty much agree with you about bees and chickens. I'm not comfortable to raise bees myself (!) but I'm okay with organic honey Ditto- ethically- with well treated free range chickens, though I presume the majority of egg vendors are also killing/eating chickens? It's actually something I wondered about - if you were to raise chickens for eggs, my (un-researched) understanding is that they only lay for a couple of years but then live much longer? How soon before you'd be overrun with non-laying hens? I know they have other value in the yard and garden but just curious about the arithmetic..
In my case it just might not be practical anyway- we'd to invest some serious effort and materials in building a safe home for them- my mom tried them years ago, and a little log cabin (converted from a project of my brother's) with a tall chicken wire fence was not enough- they were all eaten by wildlife in a relatively short time.. so I'm not sure how easy it would be to have them roaming around to help in the garden without them becoming prey, or at least having to round them all up and into lockdown at night; Then 6 months of snow on the ground when they'd have to be completely fed and kept warm at night...
 
Wyll Greenewood
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Cohan, the drawbacks and challenges are what makes this chosen permie life worthwhile, these have to be addressed and made to work.
Probably the best part of this site is all the variety of visions/actions taken by folk to handle the aspects of living as we chose, and the input of both novice and professional.
I appreciate your perspectives.
 
Cohan Fulford
Posts: 79
Location: West Central Alberta, Canada
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You're right, Wyll, always more to learn and we all have different situations so it's good to keep open mind and open eyes..
 
Wyll Greenewood
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Cohan, I have spent a little time on both sides of the Canadian Rockies, down the east (Edmonton to Lethbridge corridor) and SW (Southern BC) and can only imagine what a beautiful place it is that you live. A precious place that is worth preserving, as is the typical Canadian hospitality and earthiness.

Any comparisons to where we each call home I am sure would not be close.

I am glad to found ones such as yourself here on this site, I think we share many ideas and ideals, in the 'cob'-centric mind-set I am in right now this IS the place to be.

Cheers, Wyll
 
Heidi White
Posts: 11
Location: Vermont
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Well hi! Look at that! A whole forum for vegans

I am going to get super stickler-y here, though.

"Animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment on, use for entertainment, or abuse in any way."

"The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.”

If you believe this, you are vegan. If you don't believe this, but eat a "vegan diet" then you are a not a vegan but a "plant-based eater." Vegan is a heartplace. An ideology. It's not about perfection, but it is about producing as little harm and reducing animal exploitation as much as possible. In the same way that you can't say "I'm a Christian" and not believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, you can't say you're a vegan and still endorse animal use or exploitation. I applaud anyone who eats a plant-based diet and takes steps to reduce harm and suffering of sentient beings, but words mean things.

There is a small movement of Veganic Permaculturists in the world. Some also refer to it as "Stock-Free Farming." I bought a book (Growing Green: http://www.amazon.com/Growing-Green-Animal-Free-Organic-Techniques/dp/1933392495/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1364978490&sr=8-1&keywords=growing+green) on it, and it's some great stuff. Looks like it overlaps with some of Fukuoka's methods (though he did have chickens). I think there are likely very effective ways to practice permaculture without using any animals to do it (but here I'm referring to the keeping of farm animals for manure, etc. This doesn't include animals that are a natural part of the ecosystem and simply passing in and out of a given system). I'm also undecided as to whether or not it isn't acceptable to have some rescue animals on a farm without using them for secretions or eggs, etc. But I think the inputs needed would be too much of a burden to be ideally sustainable and the purpose of the farm would have to be as a sanctuary, which doesn't seem practical from a permaculture standpoint (the solution: stop breeding animals for human use).

These are just some of the ideas I've been mulling over for awhile now, and now I have a forum in which to present them. Thanks
 
Heidi White
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This is a reply to some of the other responses I skimmed:

Why honey isn't vegan: http://vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

That said, I do know a vegan who calls himself a bee guardian--he gives them a home, they do their bee thing, and he benefits from yummy food. He does not take their honey...this same person also is active in vermiculture. Not sure collecting worm castings is exploitation...unless others more hardcore than myself have a really good argument for that--I would love to hear it so I could reconsider my position
 
Chris Kott
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Heidi, you confuse me. I would love to see where those quotes came from, because while I don't personally hold these views, they sum up veganism in a very straightforward way. But outside of the idealized world and into the real, we have vast populations of animals that have been bred for thousands of years to serve, or to be served to, humans, some of which can't even breed without assistance. If we stopped serving these, our domesticated masters, wouldn't it be tantamount to genocide by inaction?

On a lighter note, I think anyone who's actually taken care of farm animals on a daily basis might think it ironic, the likening of domesticated animals to slaves when so much human labour is required to maintain them. Don't get me wrong, and if I haven't said this before, it can't be said enough, factory farming is wrong, just pure, undiluted evil. And stupid, besides, considering that in a very real way, you are what you eat, and by extension, that which your food eats. I don't think it likely that anyone spending time at all on these fora would seek to treat animals in any but the best they possibly can, but this applies even to the hunters here too. I don't think we are any less entitled to take what we need from any part of nature than the predators that take our livestock, or any animal higher in the food web feeding on something lower.

Mind you, I'm not calling myself any such thing, nor would I label myself on a bet. I am really enjoying smoothies as a way to include as much raw food in my diet as possible. I'm planting lots of kale as well as other brassicas, chard, beets, carrots, radishes, and half of my backyard, the single most consistently sunny spot on the whole property, is covered in raspberry canes that bear twice a year. But I love dairy, eggs, beef and poultry, and I am working a farm plan based on my desire for sashimi-grade salmon in a resilient aquaculture, as well as on my plate with wasabi and soy sauce. I think I'm leaning towards nutritarian (if I'd been coining the term, I would've gone with nutrivore, but that probably reveals my roots), and a shift of personal lifestyle to work smart, but hard, to not only get more done with my efforts, but to bring my activity level closer to peak burst-work levels, or at least to a mid-point between those and the suggested biological average necessity (by that I mean what, through observation, it appears that we need in terms of exercise to keep us physically healthy). This might bring the amounts of animal protein I consume closer to the 10% level. So I am one who is more concerned with what I eat because of its effect on me and my body, I suppose.

Nobody touched my query on fermented foods and alcohols, I see. So no valiant defender of the single-celled? I work with some Jains (Jainists?) from India, some of whom are not only the strictest vegans, they will avoid alcohol even as a cleaner, to preserve microbial life. Oh they use soap, but its derived from saponins (from washing quinoa seed, I think) and organic cloth or paper is used to wipe up, which then goes into the compost. They don't even like to clap. Anyone here gone that far (I almost typed "that far gone." I did think it, and am including it in the name of intellectual honesty, although it is meant ironically, and with great respect, albeit uncomfortable)?

-CK
 
Heidi White
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Hi Chris,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. Those quotes are general ones used by the vegan movement and have no specific provenance. I'm going to refer to another quote I found on a general vegan site: "If you are thinking to yourself, "But I'm a vegan for health reasons" or "I'm a vegan for environmental reasons," read on. Unlike the word vegetarian, the word vegan specifically implies moral concern for animals, and this concern extends to all areas of life, not just diet. If you do not believe in animal equality, please consider referring to yourself as someone who doesn't eat animal products, as one who follows a plant-based diet, or as one who follows a vegan diet. Or, continue to educate yourself about veganism, and perhaps you will choose to practice veganism. Additionally, anyone who eats honey, yet refers to herself as a vegan, makes life difficult for other vegans--it's like having someone who eats fish and calls herself a vegetarian. When a vegetarian comes along, it is much harder for her to explain that fish is not acceptable for vegetarians."

And that's the distinction I wanted to make. Veganism is an ideology/creed. Not a diet. Jains are indeed a very strict lot and their practices are based on their own spiritually-based beliefs. Vegans make a distinction based on sentience. If we can perceive that a being is capable of feeling, they are capable of suffering. Fermented foods are not off the table for us because nothing has shown us yet that microbes are sentient. And, indeed, it's impossible not to ingest microbes (every time you swallow your own saliva you get a healthy helping).

I'd love to offer more of my own words in responding to your really lengthy and definitely well thought out response, but I'm a little short on time at present. I'll instead refer you to one of my favorite animal rights writers and activists. I think he'd say it better than I would anyway: http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/faqs/
 
Chris Kott
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To each their own, I suppose. Thanks for the info, Heidi. I am definitely not, nor am I likely to ever be, a vegan. Animals are certainly deserving of being protected from any sort of institutionalized horror, and ideally would only be kept in analogs of their natural environments. But animals aren't humans. In a time of starvation, for instance, I wouldn't hesitate to kill and eat animals to save my life and those of my family. That's not immoral. That's normal. I would not feel the same way about humans, nor even of human remains.

In my opinion, the website is a little radical, in the rabid sense, not the activist sense. The need to jump to such extreme examples to illustrate simple opinions is evidence of this. It is also a suggestion that the author is a little too fond of one of his or her own logical fallacies, reductio ad absurdium. As soon as everything is rendered in black and white, the positions become more distinct. That doesn't make the arguments right, it just darkens the messy coloured bits so you can't see what's what.

-CK
 
Wyll Greenewood
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A healthy debate indeed.
Veganism, sorry I am certainly no expert in the true meanings of the word but as I understand it there is NO universally accepted criteria or template.
Heidi, you mention I have found that it is those things and NOT those things, it all depends on the source, education, awareness, culture, examples, location and personal philosophy.
I entered this thread in the hope that i could determine exactly WHAT a vegan was/is, and following the thread while accessing as many other sources and "expert" input I am more confused than before.
I do not eat any animal product or by-product because of my own personal spiritual "awakening" of the worldwide situation, I further cut out milk based products initially because of health reasons, this is the basis of my position but I do not find your or anyone else's beliefs or non beliefs right or wrong.
For me to call myself a vegan satisfies both myself and those that I need to inform, if I decide that honey and eggs are okay (which I do) then I still do not see anything wrong in still referring to myself as such.

Thank you for your passionate part in this.
 
Heidi White
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Wyll, there actually is a consensus and I'm sorry I didn't post information about it sooner:

http://www.vegansociety.com/about/history.aspx

"Vegan" is a term that was coined by a Brit named Donald Watson in 1944. When he created the term he was very explicit about what vegan meant: "No use of animals whatsoever."

Again, it's an ideology or creed, not a diet. That's all I'm defending. It may seem like splitting hairs over semantics, but for all of us ideological vegans who are truly passionate, we take a lot of pride in the word

Chris, yes Francione is a bit "radical." Radical actually originally means, "getting to the root of something" and I think that's just what he does. It's only recently that word has been hijacked and come to have its negative connotations. I think it is important to explore these issues, because so many people take animal use for granted. I, for one, could never kill another animal or another human (even if my life depended on it) because doing so would be tantamount to saying that my life matters more than the life of another (when I don't think it does--we all have equal value and equal claim to a right to life). There's a side of me that wants to honor everyone's dietary choices, but I also find that difficult because reducing the eating of animals and their products to a "lifestyle choice" ignores the fact that making that choice creates a victim.

But my heart goes out to you, because only two years ago I was the most carnivorous person ever. I used to clean chicken bones clean and I liked rare steaks. I had several anti-veg rants and I would tell everyone quite emphatically that you would never see me give up meat. But that's because I was blinding myself to what it really was. Now I look at meat and all I see is the rotting flesh of someone who was once alive and was killed for someone else's appetite. But it took me a long time to realize that. My biggest regret is that I didn't realize it sooner.
 
Wyll Greenewood
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Heidi White wrote:Wyll, there actually is a consensus and I'm sorry I didn't post information about it sooner:

http://www.vegansociety.com/about/history.aspx

"Vegan" is a term that was coined by a Brit named Donald Watson in 1944. When he created the term he was very explicit about what vegan meant: "No use of animals whatsoever."

Again, it's an ideology or creed, not a diet. That's all I'm defending. It may seem like splitting hairs over semantics, but for all of us ideological vegans who are truly passionate, we take a lot of pride in the word

Chris, yes Francione is a bit "radical." Radical actually originally means, "getting to the root of something" and I think that's just what he does. It's only recently that word has been hijacked and come to have its negative connotations. I think it is important to explore these issues, because so many people take animal use for granted. I, for one, could never kill another animal or another human (even if my life depended on it) because doing so would be tantamount to saying that my life matters more than the life of another (when I don't think it does--we all have equal value and equal claim to a right to life). There's a side of me that wants to honor everyone's dietary choices, but I also find that difficult because reducing the eating of animals and their products to a "lifestyle choice" ignores the fact that making that choice creates a victim.

But my heart goes out to you, because only two years ago I was the most carnivorous person ever. I used to clean chicken bones clean and I liked rare steaks. I had several anti-veg rants and I would tell everyone quite emphatically that you would never see me give up meat. But that's because I was blinding myself to what it really was. Now I look at meat and all I see is the rotting flesh of someone who was once alive and was killed for someone else's appetite. But it took me a long time to realize that. My biggest regret is that I didn't realize it sooner.


Heidi,

Regarding the term vegan, as I said I recognise my shortfall in the definition of said word. Thank you for illustrating the meaning and origin.

This theme seems to have taken a sour turn, Chris Kot, well versed and educated in matters pertaining to our discussion it seems has delivered an in depth lecture of his own personal take on this which frankly I just could not concentrate on. Once Chris entered into abortion and god themes I realised that we had entered into an environment that i believe does not belong here.

Let's just accept that I am what I am, I do not eat meat, use animal byproducts by choice, or dairy products but do consume honey and occasionally eggs. If this means that i do not fit the term vegan then I will have to use some other or just nothing at all.

 
Chris Kott
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If I offended unintentionally, I apologise. I was using the "g" word to illustrate a point, as I did the abortion argument. There are many ways to shut down discourse, some just seem more open-minded and rational than others. All I did was poke holes at the underlying structure. I hope I didn't shut the dialogue door myself without meaning to.
 
Wyll Greenewood
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Chris Kott wrote:If I offended unintentionally, I apologise. I was using the "g" word to illustrate a point, as I did the abortion argument. There are many ways to shut down discourse, some just seem more open-minded and rational than others. All I did was poke holes at the underlying structure. I hope I didn't shut the dialogue door myself without meaning to.


Chris,

Sorry if I came on too strong, a place like this I think should be open and cordial.

You are obviously well read on these matters, but as I am discovering, there are MANY facets to what I thought veganism is, ALL points are valid, yours were just a little "heavy" for me it seems.

I am happy with my position and life choices regarding the coexisting with animals and not abusing/misusing them, and glad that we have this arena to discuss same while on a wonderful permie site like this.

Peace

Wyll
 
Chris Kott
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Hey Wyll,

No need to apologise. Sometimes impassioned debate gets away from us. I think if not-really-vegans are still welcome here, I'll stick to the light stuff.

Peace,

-CK
 
Alice Lynn
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Hello, this is my first post in this section of the forum and I thought I should stop by and say hi.

I've never been comfortable using the majority of animal products, and I also have Sensory Processing Disorder which makes it almost impossible for me to eat even most vegan "meats". Ever since I was about 5 yrs old I have been vegetarian, but with the occasional lapse into eating specific types of fish.

I thought I would share a rundown of my animal product ethics just for the sake of conversation. These are personal and I in no way feel others need to believe the same things that I do. I like hearing differing opinions in fact because they make me think (which can be a good thing! lol).

I went completely vegan about 5 years ago after having a baby. Breastfeeding my son made me disgusted with the use of dairy, especially from factory farms. I can understand taking some milk from an animal after her baby has had it's fill, but the forced separation of the mother and child is horrifying to me. Every time I looked at a dairy product I would think of what it would be like to have my infant stolen from me and slaughtered so that same person could drink my milk. It's just far too unethical to me. Also by drinking the breast milk of another species, it's somewhat like a refusal to wean. If we, as humans, decide to take on a surrogate mother in this manner, it's the least we can do to treat her as a member of the family, as well as any of our adopted non-human siblings while we're at it. No "using her up" and killing her once she's past her prime.

On matters other than dairy I'm not nearly so militant. When I move onto my land I intend to have a few ducks, and to eat their eggs. Since ducks can live peacefully in male and female flocks, so there is no issue of what to do with the males (unlike roosters). All ducks will be treated as family, and will not be judged for their productivity as layers. Taking freshly laid eggs can be seen as a necessary birth control measure, as long as the duck in question shows no strong attachment to them. My mom had two ducks as pets when I was little, and they ignored their eggs.

I have no desire to hunt, but I respect people that hunt instead of eating meat from factory farms. I knew a man that would hunt and kill one elk a year and ate no other meat. I respect his dedication and choice, even if I wouldn't be able to do it myself.

I recently started eating honey from local beekeepers because I am concerned that bees are going to go extinct. Also honey appears to be less bad for my teeth than sugar. I have considered beekeeping myself, but I'm a little afraid of them, not for myself, but for my 3 and 4 year old sons. I'm afraid they will get stung to death. I already have to worry about all the copperheads and timber-rattle snakes around, adding bees just makes me paranoid. With enough safety research I may change my mind though.

I have also started to reconsider eating oysters, clams, and possibly shrimp. The first two are extremely nutritious and would eliminate my need for vitamin supplements. Also, I just don't empathize with them, their nervous systems are too simple. The only reason I don't eat them is because I'm "not supposed to" and I'm beginning to question my logic. Shrimp I'm on the fence about. I can empathize with them somewhat, but they are easy to raise here and are one of the few meat products I actually miss. I'm going round and round on that one, which means I probably should err on the side of caution. But I also have two cats, and I think it might be possible to create home made cat food with these forms of meat as a base. I feed my dogs vegetarian food, since dogs have a lower protein need than humans and are scavengers (especially my thai ridgeback that's been bred to live on scraps with a little bit of seafood for thousands of years). But cats have so many issues digesting even cooked meat. I'm not sure if I could stomach feeding them a natural mouse based diet (mice are cute! and smart!) but I hate feeding them store bought food. It seems like a mix of oysters, shrimp, and egg whites with a little bit of supplementation might work? As soon as I have some time I want to research it.

One of my dreams is to have some animals on my land that are commonly eaten, and NOT eat them but let them live full lives. I've wanted to do this ever since I was a kid. Right now I'm looking for ways to have somewhat of a mutually beneficial relationship, such as ways animals could create things like wool, manure, or keep the grass in check. A couple sheep, a few cows/oxen, maybe kune kune pigs (the only vegetarian pig I am aware of), and some ducks.

Anyway, I'm vegan except for the contested issue of honey, but plan on being less so in the future. I hope I didn't offend anyone, my views are solely my own and I will respect those of anyone kind enough to share theirs with me =D
 
Chris Kott
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Anyone who is offended by your posts is looking to be. I, too, like to hear differing points of view when having a discussion. It makes for more dialogue and less preachy back-patting. I hadn't considered a duck flock for eggs as a way around culling roosters. That's really clever if it will work. Would it work with geese, I wonder (I have heard that geese are herbivorous, whereas ducks eat everything)?

-CK
 
Wyll Greenewood
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Alice Lynn wrote:Hello, this is my first post in this section of the forum and I thought I should stop by and say hi.

I've never been comfortable using the majority of animal products, and I also have Sensory Processing Disorder which makes it almost impossible for me to eat even most vegan "meats". Ever since I was about 5 yrs old I have been vegetarian, but with the occasional lapse into eating specific types of fish.

I thought I would share a rundown of my animal product ethics just for the sake of conversation. These are personal and I in no way feel others need to believe the same things that I do. I like hearing differing opinions in fact because they make me think (which can be a good thing! lol).

I went completely vegan about 5 years ago after having a baby. Breastfeeding my son made me disgusted with the use of dairy, especially from factory farms. I can understand taking some milk from an animal after her baby has had it's fill, but the forced separation of the mother and child is horrifying to me. Every time I looked at a dairy product I would think of what it would be like to have my infant stolen from me and slaughtered so that same person could drink my milk. It's just far too unethical to me. Also by drinking the breast milk of another species, it's somewhat like a refusal to wean. If we, as humans, decide to take on a surrogate mother in this manner, it's the least we can do to treat her as a member of the family, as well as any of our adopted non-human siblings while we're at it. No "using her up" and killing her once she's past her prime.

On matters other than dairy I'm not nearly so militant. When I move onto my land I intend to have a few ducks, and to eat their eggs. Since ducks can live peacefully in male and female flocks, so there is no issue of what to do with the males (unlike roosters). All ducks will be treated as family, and will not be judged for their productivity as layers. Taking freshly laid eggs can be seen as a necessary birth control measure, as long as the duck in question shows no strong attachment to them. My mom had two ducks as pets when I was little, and they ignored their eggs.

I have no desire to hunt, but I respect people that hunt instead of eating meat from factory farms. I knew a man that would hunt and kill one elk a year and ate no other meat. I respect his dedication and choice, even if I wouldn't be able to do it myself.

I recently started eating honey from local beekeepers because I am concerned that bees are going to go extinct. Also honey appears to be less bad for my teeth than sugar. I have considered beekeeping myself, but I'm a little afraid of them, not for myself, but for my 3 and 4 year old sons. I'm afraid they will get stung to death. I already have to worry about all the copperheads and timber-rattle snakes around, adding bees just makes me paranoid. With enough safety research I may change my mind though.

I have also started to reconsider eating oysters, clams, and possibly shrimp. The first two are extremely nutritious and would eliminate my need for vitamin supplements. Also, I just don't empathize with them, their nervous systems are too simple. The only reason I don't eat them is because I'm "not supposed to" and I'm beginning to question my logic. Shrimp I'm on the fence about. I can empathize with them somewhat, but they are easy to raise here and are one of the few meat products I actually miss. I'm going round and round on that one, which means I probably should err on the side of caution. But I also have two cats, and I think it might be possible to create home made cat food with these forms of meat as a base. I feed my dogs vegetarian food, since dogs have a lower protein need than humans and are scavengers (especially my thai ridgeback that's been bred to live on scraps with a little bit of seafood for thousands of years). But cats have so many issues digesting even cooked meat. I'm not sure if I could stomach feeding them a natural mouse based diet (mice are cute! and smart!) but I hate feeding them store bought food. It seems like a mix of oysters, shrimp, and egg whites with a little bit of supplementation might work? As soon as I have some time I want to research it.

One of my dreams is to have some animals on my land that are commonly eaten, and NOT eat them but let them live full lives. I've wanted to do this ever since I was a kid. Right now I'm looking for ways to have somewhat of a mutually beneficial relationship, such as ways animals could create things like wool, manure, or keep the grass in check. A couple sheep, a few cows/oxen, maybe kune kune pigs (the only vegetarian pig I am aware of), and some ducks.

Anyway, I'm vegan except for the contested issue of honey, but plan on being less so in the future. I hope I didn't offend anyone, my views are solely my own and I will respect those of anyone kind enough to share theirs with me =D


AC,
Although I am a recent addition to the 'flock' i wish to welcome you here. I really liked your intro and overview of your life style and proposed near-future, really kind of echoes my own (probably the REASON I liked it methinks).
Wyll
 
Alice Lynn
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Chris Kott wrote:Anyone who is offended by your posts is looking to be. I, too, like to hear differing points of view when having a discussion. It makes for more dialogue and less preachy back-patting. I hadn't considered a duck flock for eggs as a way around culling roosters. That's really clever if it will work. Would it work with geese, I wonder (I have heard that geese are herbivorous, whereas ducks eat everything)?

-CK


CK,
Learning works so much better when we're exposed to ideas other than our own! It took me forever to come up with the plan for ducks instead of chickens. If a large number of eggs are wanted I believe khaki campbell ducks can almost match a chicken. I'm probably either going to go for a breed that's in danger of extinction, or try to rescue some local ducks from a fate in a stew pot. I wonder if duck breeds can be mixed together? I never thought to look that up.

As far as ducks being omnivores, I was under the impression that they could feed themselves here in TN, and I'm ok with that. I don't want to purchase feed, or at least not on a regular basis. Insects are a huge problem here. Most of the year they make going outside miserable, and then they attract frogs which attract copperheads (we are overrun with these!) and timber rattles snakes. So I'm trying to get animals that make the land less attractive to venomous snakes. Guinea Fowl are supposed to help as well, but I've heard they can have some aggression issues. I need to do more research. I dislike killing insects, but it's like a war zone here.

One other solution for the chicken rooster issue is to keep the male and females separate all the time. I've met people that do this. One coop for females, one out of sight for males, and then separate times outside. The roosters won't fight if there are never any females, but I will add that the people that did this were keeping non aggressive breeds. Silkies for one, and the other had Brahmins. I'm afraid to try this because I'm afraid all the roosters will crow all the time anyway (the silky owner says they don't, but I have horrible luck). Turning the roosters into capons when young is another fix, but I have yet to here of a way to do this while safely putting the rooster under anesthesia to avoid suffering.

Geese are awesome though! I want a few of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Buff_Goose Supposedly they are extremely friendly, and not like most geese at all. Which might help my near-five year old get over his fear of them =D Their eggs have a ton of b12, but also a ton of cholesterol. I mainly want a few because they are almost extinct, and they remind me of dinosaurs when they walk (not that I've ever seen a dinosaur, of course, lol).

Anyway, I'm trying to have a plan for a small number of animal species that can live in harmony (possibly with the aid of a few fences), and not destroy me economically.



Wyll Greenewood wrote:
AC,
Although I am a recent addition to the 'flock' i wish to welcome you here. I really liked your intro and overview of your life style and proposed near-future, really kind of echoes my own (probably the REASON I liked it methinks).
Wyll


It's nice to meet you too! It's not often that I find people that have similar view as mine with animals and ethics. I'm almost always the odd one out. Every animal I've ever had as "pets" growing up (mostly cats, and dogs) were always considered full family members. My parents were not vegetarians, but they did treat animals respectfully, taking their feelings into account and such. I have memories of having to apologize to the cat for upsetting her until she scratched me, versus in some households where the cat would have been blamed. I want to have the same kind of relationship with farm animals.

Paul: I missed the deleted comment. I just wanted to point out that I mentioned not trying to upset anyone not because of that, but because I accidentally put my foot in my mouth all the time. I'm awful about talking too much and accidentally stepping on toes! I just wanted to post a disclaimer so that people would know that I mean well, and if I offend it wasn't on purpose =]
 
Greta Fields
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Jeanine, Carol and others, I enjoy reading about the way you have animals and eat. However, what I find missing on most all vegan forums is a discussion of wild animals. There is some here. When Starlings or other wild animals don't fit, I think it is people out of place. People are part of nature, but have torn up nature, so of course the crows are going to poop on your college campus. Where else can they stop to sleep? They see trees, stop to roost overnight.
By living close to nature, I have rediscovered biodiversity as my friend, not the enemy. The snakes, as someone here noted, control the voles. [And hawks control snake babies.' I don't judge the animals, I just live with them and enjoy them, and find them to be incredibly self reliant. But Jeanine, was it you who said snakes don't make holes? They DO. Copperheads will drill a hole down into grass or your compost
I saw a Copperhead go9 down one hole and went to look at it. He had woven grass stems in a beautiful spiral around the hole, like a crop circle with a hole in the middle.
Shows what we know about snakes.
Several years later, a snake near that same hole made a perfect circle about `12 inches in diameter in the grass. Apparently he went round and round and round. I was mowing. Suddenly I hit a terrapin and cut it in half, and I was horrified --I can still see the terror in its eyes. Shows what we know: I think the snake was attempting to warn me not to ow there either.
 
You're not going crazy. You're going sane in a crazy word. Find comfort in this tiny ad:
Permaculture Playing Cards by Paul Wheaton and Alexander Ojeda
https://permies.com/wiki/57503/digital-market/digital-market/Permaculture-Playing-Cards-Paul-Wheaton
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