Tyler Ludens wrote:
Carol Grosser wrote: I struggle on here alone in a land where people are clueless on permaculture.
Heidi White wrote:Wyll, there actually is a consensus and I'm sorry I didn't post information about it sooner:
"Vegan" is a term that was coined by a Brit named Donald Watson in 1944. When he created the term he was very explicit about what vegan meant: "No use of animals whatsoever."
Again, it's an ideology or creed, not a diet. That's all I'm defending. It may seem like splitting hairs over semantics, but for all of us ideological vegans who are truly passionate, we take a lot of pride in the word
Chris, yes Francione is a bit "radical." Radical actually originally means, "getting to the root of something" and I think that's just what he does. It's only recently that word has been hijacked and come to have its negative connotations. I think it is important to explore these issues, because so many people take animal use for granted. I, for one, could never kill another animal or another human (even if my life depended on it) because doing so would be tantamount to saying that my life matters more than the life of another (when I don't think it does--we all have equal value and equal claim to a right to life). There's a side of me that wants to honor everyone's dietary choices, but I also find that difficult because reducing the eating of animals and their products to a "lifestyle choice" ignores the fact that making that choice creates a victim.
But my heart goes out to you, because only two years ago I was the most carnivorous person ever. I used to clean chicken bones clean and I liked rare steaks. I had several anti-veg rants and I would tell everyone quite emphatically that you would never see me give up meat. But that's because I was blinding myself to what it really was. Now I look at meat and all I see is the rotting flesh of someone who was once alive and was killed for someone else's appetite. But it took me a long time to realize that. My biggest regret is that I didn't realize it sooner.
Chris Kott wrote:If I offended unintentionally, I apologise. I was using the "g" word to illustrate a point, as I did the abortion argument. There are many ways to shut down discourse, some just seem more open-minded and rational than others. All I did was poke holes at the underlying structure. I hope I didn't shut the dialogue door myself without meaning to.
Alice Lynn wrote:Hello, this is my first post in this section of the forum and I thought I should stop by and say hi.
I've never been comfortable using the majority of animal products, and I also have Sensory Processing Disorder which makes it almost impossible for me to eat even most vegan "meats". Ever since I was about 5 yrs old I have been vegetarian, but with the occasional lapse into eating specific types of fish.
I thought I would share a rundown of my animal product ethics just for the sake of conversation. These are personal and I in no way feel others need to believe the same things that I do. I like hearing differing opinions in fact because they make me think (which can be a good thing! lol).
I went completely vegan about 5 years ago after having a baby. Breastfeeding my son made me disgusted with the use of dairy, especially from factory farms. I can understand taking some milk from an animal after her baby has had it's fill, but the forced separation of the mother and child is horrifying to me. Every time I looked at a dairy product I would think of what it would be like to have my infant stolen from me and slaughtered so that same person could drink my milk. It's just far too unethical to me. Also by drinking the breast milk of another species, it's somewhat like a refusal to wean. If we, as humans, decide to take on a surrogate mother in this manner, it's the least we can do to treat her as a member of the family, as well as any of our adopted non-human siblings while we're at it. No "using her up" and killing her once she's past her prime.
On matters other than dairy I'm not nearly so militant. When I move onto my land I intend to have a few ducks, and to eat their eggs. Since ducks can live peacefully in male and female flocks, so there is no issue of what to do with the males (unlike roosters). All ducks will be treated as family, and will not be judged for their productivity as layers. Taking freshly laid eggs can be seen as a necessary birth control measure, as long as the duck in question shows no strong attachment to them. My mom had two ducks as pets when I was little, and they ignored their eggs.
I have no desire to hunt, but I respect people that hunt instead of eating meat from factory farms. I knew a man that would hunt and kill one elk a year and ate no other meat. I respect his dedication and choice, even if I wouldn't be able to do it myself.
I recently started eating honey from local beekeepers because I am concerned that bees are going to go extinct. Also honey appears to be less bad for my teeth than sugar. I have considered beekeeping myself, but I'm a little afraid of them, not for myself, but for my 3 and 4 year old sons. I'm afraid they will get stung to death. I already have to worry about all the copperheads and timber-rattle snakes around, adding bees just makes me paranoid. With enough safety research I may change my mind though.
I have also started to reconsider eating oysters, clams, and possibly shrimp. The first two are extremely nutritious and would eliminate my need for vitamin supplements. Also, I just don't empathize with them, their nervous systems are too simple. The only reason I don't eat them is because I'm "not supposed to" and I'm beginning to question my logic. Shrimp I'm on the fence about. I can empathize with them somewhat, but they are easy to raise here and are one of the few meat products I actually miss. I'm going round and round on that one, which means I probably should err on the side of caution. But I also have two cats, and I think it might be possible to create home made cat food with these forms of meat as a base. I feed my dogs vegetarian food, since dogs have a lower protein need than humans and are scavengers (especially my thai ridgeback that's been bred to live on scraps with a little bit of seafood for thousands of years). But cats have so many issues digesting even cooked meat. I'm not sure if I could stomach feeding them a natural mouse based diet (mice are cute! and smart!) but I hate feeding them store bought food. It seems like a mix of oysters, shrimp, and egg whites with a little bit of supplementation might work? As soon as I have some time I want to research it.
One of my dreams is to have some animals on my land that are commonly eaten, and NOT eat them but let them live full lives. I've wanted to do this ever since I was a kid. Right now I'm looking for ways to have somewhat of a mutually beneficial relationship, such as ways animals could create things like wool, manure, or keep the grass in check. A couple sheep, a few cows/oxen, maybe kune kune pigs (the only vegetarian pig I am aware of), and some ducks.
Anyway, I'm vegan except for the contested issue of honey, but plan on being less so in the future. I hope I didn't offend anyone, my views are solely my own and I will respect those of anyone kind enough to share theirs with me =D
Chris Kott wrote:Anyone who is offended by your posts is looking to be. I, too, like to hear differing points of view when having a discussion. It makes for more dialogue and less preachy back-patting. I hadn't considered a duck flock for eggs as a way around culling roosters. That's really clever if it will work. Would it work with geese, I wonder (I have heard that geese are herbivorous, whereas ducks eat everything)?
Wyll Greenewood wrote:
Although I am a recent addition to the 'flock' i wish to welcome you here. I really liked your intro and overview of your life style and proposed near-future, really kind of echoes my own (probably the REASON I liked it methinks).