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Screaming hot spot in the garden where nothing can grow. Cheap/free suggestions anyone?

 
pollinator
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This has been an extremely enlightening thread for me. Thanks to all who contributed. I loved all the diverse suggestions...I have one to add... Have you tried growing Osage Orange trees?  Aside from their HATEFUL(and painful) thorns, they are an incredibly hardy and useful tree. Great shade, fast growing, beautiful yellow wood which is GREAT firewood (other than it sparks like the Fourth of July)...I hope you find all the answers you're looking for;
 
steward
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Location: USDA Zone 8a
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This article says that ducks will eat pill bugs, though chickens don't like them

Have you tried DE?

Here is an interesting way to get rid of pill bugs:

Trap and remove them. Here is a technique using cellulose packing peanuts: “My fail proof method is to sprinkle the cellulose packing peanuts (NOT the plastic ones) around on the ground where you’ve seen roly poly bugs (we’ve always called them potato bugs, probably because they roll up in a ball). Overnight, the potato bugs will collect to feast on them and you can just scoop them up and dispose of them.”



Another method for trapping them is to place a ripe cantaloupe cut in half, with the hollow side down on the ground overnight.  In the morning turn it over and collect the hundreds of pill bugs.



https://www.pick-a-pepper.com/controlling-pill-bugs-roly-polies/


 
Posts: 21
Location: Tremonton, UT United States Zone 6B
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Hi Debbie…thank you for the welcome….I like to pat myself on my back when I’ve come across ideas that I’ve discovered and others find that it’s working as well…as they say…”great minds think alike” or something like that…so kudos to you!! The Guinea fowl are foracious bug eaters…they do not scratch so much like chickens so I don’t see them digging up the pill bugs…I know I rarely see box elder bugs or grasshoppers…they keep the slug population down in my strawberry patch too…they do a good job keeping that population down…I was reading on pill bugs and noted they love places only with moisture…so you are doing a great job of  keeping moisture in your garden…which is much needed…now for the balancing act….i personally don’t see a lot of them unless I lift up a rock…I do allow my soil to dry up in between watering but don’t know if that would make a difference…I read that watering would be best in the morning to give it time to dry up during the day so when the bugs come out at night there would be less moisture for them…but maybe you are doing that already……best wishes and keep us posted…you should write a book when you’ve discovered the solution…
 
pollinator
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Location: Sedona Az Zone 8b
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Hello my friends,
Hi Jeanne Wallace, Putting your compost in a shed/shaded area was a good idea. My main one is covered by a huge sheet of vinyl which keeps it reasonably cool, not a plastic tarp that keeps it super hot. And as I've mentioned in many threads here.... a little shade can work wonders! I've been looking into wicking beds. But most of my beds are dug right into almost solid rock so they basically act like really big, fairly shallow containers. So I am studying them to see what benefit they can be to me.

Hi Nathaneal, I am so curious what took you to super hot Africa. Date palms, really? This sounds like the kind of suggestion that lots of people would just ignore but that I have found can be so very, very useful! I am going to look into that. And I love that you have encouraged me to plant pistachio trees. Everything I have read says they would do so very well here. And I feel like that spot down the hill is a diamond in the rough! It catches all the water from ½ my neighborhood when we used to have rains. And it stayed moist for so long! And it has shade! But I would have to find a way to get supplemental water to it which is not in my budget right now. And for the last 2 years no one nearby has been selling pistachio trees. I would have to drive to California to get them. That's a long drive. And the last time I went through, the borders of California were patrolled by the fruit police. Not kidding. They check your vehicle for forbidden fruit coming and going. I don't know if pistachio trees are even allowed to cross their border without an inspection and a permit. But I so appreciate your encouragement. I will not give up on the idea.

Kim Huse, I have never even heard of Elf Thyme but I will definitely look into it.

Hi Kathy Vargo, I would love to grow lemons and oranges and bougainvillea but I live in northern Arizona and they can't survive here. And at times like this I miss New Hampshire very much! I used to love to go see the leaves change color in the fall.

And Anne, my dear friend. You go to such great lengths researching and studying things just so you can help all of us! You are a treasure!

However, it kind of drives me a little bit nuts every time someone suggests D.E. For a lot of people it is their # 1 suggestion for everything. So I tell them that they should first try this experiment that I did many years ago because D.E. almost never worked for me.  Everyone can and should try this at home!! Please, please try this before you suggest it!!

Get a small plastic container. I used one from the bakery that cookies came in. It was about 14” x 14” x 1 and ½ “ deep. I put a shallow layer of dirt in it. (Just to make the darned bugs comfortable) Then I sprinkled a thick line of D.E. right down the center. Then I dumped in a bunch of pill bugs on one side of the line. Then I went to get a bunch of leaves from my squash plants. It's one of their favorites. I intended to place the leaves on the other side of the line to see if the bugs would cross the line to get them. Turned out this was not necessary! When I came back the darned bugs were already walking around and around the container looking for a way to get out. They weren't bothered one bit by the D.E. In fact, they were still doing that 4 days later. The D.E. didn't repel them or harm or stop them in any way. I've tried the same experiment with lots of ants and mostly got the same results. Only one kind of ants out of about a dozen avoided it. But, I so love you for trying!
 
pollinator
Posts: 487
Location: Boudamasa, Chad
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For obtaining pistachio trees--or any other tree. Can you not order them online? It would be cheaper than driving out of State, I'm sure.

If you're really curious about what brought me to Africa, I started and run an elementary school. And I have a thread about that project here: https://permies.com/t/108727/Elementary-school-eco-village-Africa
 
Debbie Ann
pollinator
Posts: 252
Location: Sedona Az Zone 8b
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Wow!!! I just scanned your thread and it looks so AMAZING! As soon as I get the chance I will read through it all! What an amazing thing to do! And you're taking the time to try to help and encourage me! Thank you so much!

And I've only ordered a couple of bare root trees online and they both arrived dead. So, now I'm taking my time to do more research. And I still need to get supplemental water down there until the trees grow deep roots. But gosh, thank you for your help and suggestions! And I wish you ALL THE BEST!
 
Posts: 32
Location: Vancouver
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Sharon Kallis in Vancouver did work with bio-netting - taking invasive english ivy and crocheting it into large nets.  It doesn't take that long, since crocheting is so ludicrously efficient.  The nets are laid down and pressed into the top layer of soil (on hillsides here in the PNW, because of the heavy rains) and they prevent erosion, allowing the native transplants to actually have a chance.  I will try and source an article from her, as this is about the 5th time I've needed one.

In the same vein, perhaps learn how to do basic weaving with whatever you have available, and create artificial shade to allow plants to establish themselves and get deeper root systems.  Poles and a cross-hatched shade-structure at an angle that faces the hottest sunlight.  It's a bandaid solution, but could come in handy in the future, and because it's going to have lots of holes in it, it'll have a little less wind-resistance.

Desert farming techniques involve planting things about a foot deep.  As long as there is no absolute ridiculous hardpan, plants can have a water source as long as they have time to establish incredibly deep roots (some (most?) watering is done because root systems are undeveloped, for one reason or another, not because plants necessarily need watering.)  Have to research desert farming though, there are sources on youtube etc. from Arizona/New Mexico.

Mulch is not necessarily good - according to Steve Solomon, mulch (depending on what it is) often just facilitates water wicking up to the surface.  When farming with no water, he allowed the top 4 inches to totally dry out.  This stops the wicking action from the water below that point (basically shading the 4 inch and below area.)  Watering breaks this cycle, ironically, and allows for far more water loss unless it's a lot of water.  Very dry mulch is ok, but anything that might compact is a bad idea.  It supports the desert farming techniques above, in that water should ideally be got from 4 feet down, not the top foot of soil.

It also may be easier to plant a windbreak-hedgerow and get rid of some of the wind before tackling the area.

Rotten logs can store an amazing amount of moisture, and if rotten enough, plant roots can penetrate them.  Nurse logs can provide some shade as well.  Could be possible to root things into them in a shadier area, then bring out the logs and bury them.  Another bandaid solution.  The company bandaid is getting a lot of free advertising here.
 
Debbie Ann
pollinator
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Location: Sedona Az Zone 8b
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Hi Geoff,
Thank you for your suggestions. And you bring up some really good points about mulch and the water wicking up. Something in my tiny little brain tells me you're onto something! I've been very focused on growing annual vegies here for many years. But larger perennial plants are a whole nother animal, so to speak. And I'm going to take a good look at what is happening under the mulch. And study up more on the wicking process. I always amend the holes I place trees and shrubs in but around them and mixed in is a lot of clay soil. I'm curious how the wicking process works or doesn't work in clay soil. I have a lot to learn.

Thank you so much for your suggestions.
Happy gardening.
 
pollinator
Posts: 875
Location: Kansas
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As far as broadening the edges, consider using sweet potatoes, which love heat. You say you're already watering your gardens, so plant sweet potatoes at the edges with the plan to leave them in the ground to rot over the winter. Then each year keep just enough to start again the following spring and plan to expand just a little. If it doesn't get cold enough to kill them, they'll spread. You'll also have a living mulch to cover the soil and keep the area around your boxes a little cooler.

I did this at my last house, although I sold it this year so I didn't get to really keep records. This area usually gets 0 water between May and September, summer highs usually in the high 90's and low 100's, and the sweet potatoes did great under deep mulch with no additional water at all. Not a lot of tubers, but a huge mass of feeder roots. Last year I did my first real trial with the sweet potatoes, but never got to see how it improved the soil.

Worth a try, in any case. Other plants that did well under those conditions (deep mulch, sand, no additional water) :

Watermelon
Tarragon
Rosemary (but it didn't like our cold winters)
Chives in shade
Oats, lettuce and spinach as spring ephemeral, reseeded themselves each year
Horseradish in the wetter areas.
Sunchokes
Currants
Gooseberry in shade
Apricot trees
Almond trees (seedlings for almond and apricot thrived, but seldom survived the winter without protection)
Saffron crocuses (fall bloomer, died back in the summer)
Oregano
Sage
Catnip
Lemon Balm in the shade
Grapes need water until established but otherwise survived on winter rains

None of these got additional water during the summer.

I had planned to do a pistachio grove, but gave away my baby trees when I moved to a much wetter area.
 
pollinator
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Hi Debbie Ann
I had a very busy week last week at work--end of semester time. So I wasn't able to get back to you on eating prickly pear (nopales and tunas) but there are already several threads on permies about that, and I've bumped a few up.
There are many different varieties of nopal, while I believe they are all edible, some offer better tasting fruits (tunas) and others offer better eating of the pads (nopales). They can also be fed to livestock and you can make paint, and biofuel from them, really the plant of the future, or better yet, the plant of NOW.
I'm going to start an additional thread in the cooking forum on how to get less slimy cooked nopales.
 
Debbie Ann
pollinator
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Hi Lauren, Thank you so much for your suggestions. I do grow a few of the things you listed. But as you now know from our posts this morning about pill bugs that I have not been able to use any mulch for years except on my flowers and shrubs. So everything had to be watered. But I have really high hopes that I will be able to put down some mulch by next year! And I am just this year trying to grow  potatoes for the first time. I ruined most of them before I even got to plant them but so far I have 3 really pretty plants. And I am going to try for a fall/winter crop of sweet potatoes. I've got a good warm spot up against some rocks where they can stay pretty warm all winter. Well, I have rocks everywhere so I put them to good use. When life gives you a lot of rock you gotta put them to good uses. Thank you so much.

And Melissa, nopales get slimy?? Oh my! Sounds like a bio-fuel would be a good idea!
 
pollinator
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Location: Ban Mak Ya Thailand Zone 11-12
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Agan Tree
Mesquite
Guava
Jojoba
Saguaro
any other edible Cactus (ground needs to be well draining)
Ironwood
Key apple
Wolfberry
Agave
Pineapple
Water melon
Buckhorn cholla

all grew good in the dead corners if combined as a guild
 
pollinator
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I would consider leaning into the heat, and use it for a water heater climate battery, or rock well. If trying to establish vegetation, when I worked in the Desert Restoration Corps’ Wilderness Crew, we built “frankenbushes” of dead branches to deter illegal atv use by disrupting the linearity and therefore visibility of a former/illegal wilderness road, and by disrupting the linearity of sun, wind and water flows we created shaded soil, seed water catchment pockets. I would either pile rocks or horde truly organic organic matter, and make a massive loose organic debris pile (if you don’t mind a few snakes!).
 
Debbie Ann
pollinator
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Location: Sedona Az Zone 8b
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Hi good People, I want to thank you all again for giving me such great advice. I now have a plan, a good plan thanks to all of you.

The eroding hill. I just ordered 3 small plugs of Vetiver grass. $15.00. I'll pot them up and plant them on the hill in the fall. Hopefully by next spring I will start dividing them and start filling up the slope. Thank you Michael Cox. It sounds like it can do the job and stop erosion well! I have ½ dozen sprigs of rosemary chilling out in a glass of water and will pot them up as soon as they root well. Again, planting them on the slope intermingled with the grass this fall should look interesting and do the job. Just a few flowers for the finishing touch will be perfect. Thank you Anne Miller for the suggestion.

In the center of the rock I have decided to try to create a habitat to attract more of my local friendly critters. Anne Miller suggested creating a habitat to attract more lizards and Ben Zumeta suggested a big pile of brush but said it might be a good habitat for snakes. Thank you both. I can always use more lizards and snakes are our friends! They eat mice and rats which makes me so happy. And 2 years ago so many species of birds that have been here since I have just up and left. Gone for good. I will try to invite the new birds in closer and get to know them. That could have great benefits. And at the very least the brush pile/habitat will also help to cover and cool down the rock. And like always I will try to make it look unusual and unique. Sounds like a win/win to me! And it won't cost me anything. Another win.

And you've all given me so many terrific suggestions for medium and large trees and shrubs and ground covers along the edges. And I had smartly planned that these would be the largest part of my budget.  Plants that would provide lots of shade or grow fast and add really smart stuff to my food forest. Thank you Sena Kassim for telling me about the trees that I never knew had unusual edible parts. Sounds great. And Tyler Ludens, your food forest looks fantastic. It got me so excited! They would all encroach on the rock a bit, overshadow it and cool it off a lot!  That's the ticket!

As I read each of your suggestions I researched each plant and decided it's pros and cons. But it wasn't until this weekend when I went down the full list all at once that I saw the awesome possibilities. If I placed this small tree near that larger tree and added these short perennial plants in just this or that spot  and planted these for a ground cover it would look really amazing! And Carob trees! I don't know anyone here with a Carob tree. I want some!! So unique and very well suited to this environment. Thank you Erik van Lennep! I got so excited I planned and plotted out the things I would plant into the bottom of the west hill and the stuff I would plant on the south side. And I am so ready to rip open my bank account for this! And in my head it will look astounding! Wow, you guys are awesome!

And now all I can do is hope that some day I can make it happen. I contacted our local nursery that is pretty good and grows a lot of native stuff and they only had 2 of the 30 plants that I wanted. A golden current and a serviceberry. No jojoba, no jujube, no ironwood, no Moringa. I contacted the next best nursery in Flagstaff, 1 and ½ hours away and they didn't have any of them. I've only ordered 2 bare root trees since moving here and they both arrived DOA. Apparently most things have to go through several hub warehouses before they can get here unless they are coming from the Pacific Northwest so the survival rate is very low. And I'm not inclined to drive 2 hours to Phoenix. And I'd have to drive all the way to California to get pistachio trees!

So I'm a little bummed. Been having a bad day. Just to make me a little more grouchy I've been listening to non-stop helicopters for over a week now. There's a big wildfire near Flagstaff right now and the choppers are coming in about every 30 minutes to our airport to load up water and head back to the fire. The airport is on the big hill close to my backyard. I know they have to do it and I can't be angry about it but..... And it doesn't help that the Cicadas are so damned loud this year.

I'm trying not to be Debbie Downer right now. And I will keep looking at my list  and try to stay positive. I thank you all so much for your help. Please keep your fingers crossed for me!
Happy gardening, everyone.
 
Posts: 44
Location: San Cristóbal, Chiapas, Mexico
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Hi Debbie Ann! For what it's worth I'll share my experience of sticking plants into an amphitheatre-type suntrap: the only thing that doesn't seem to suffer are the agaves. Succulents, leafy plants and cacti clearly feel the heat (or the UV more likely, we're at 2200 m altitude) but different types of magueyes soldier on. You could plant a few of them just to get some ground cover started. They propagate by suckers/clones, can grow pretty big, look striking and shelter other plants underneath. Just lean into them, get a few varieties and make a Japanese Zen-type geometric garden from them! Don't expect to be able to spend much time waltzing around there, let them look after your spot for a few years. Look up a photo of the maguey plantation designed by maestro Toledo in front of the Santo Domingo cathedral in Oaxaca city for inspiration. Good luck!
 
Emilia Andersson
Posts: 44
Location: San Cristóbal, Chiapas, Mexico
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Debbie Ann wrote:
So I'm a little bummed. Been having a bad day. Just to make me a little more grouchy I've been listening to non-stop helicopters for over a week now. There's a big wildfire near Flagstaff right now and the choppers are coming in about every 30 minutes to our airport to load up water and head back to the fire. The airport is on the big hill close to my backyard. I know they have to do it and I can't be angry about it but..... And it doesn't help that the Cicadas are so damned loud this year.

I'm trying not to be Debbie Downer right now. And I will keep looking at my list  and try to stay positive. I thank you all so much for your help. Please keep your fingers crossed for me!
Happy gardening, everyone.


How are you feeling now Debbie? Agroecology hugs.
 
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