winter grazing instead of hay (going hayless)

Kevin MacBearach wrote:Well it won't work for dairy cows, but it's good to see more beef farmers doing this.

Problem is, the majority of these videos shows beef farmers that farm in the Midwest, or places of the Southeast, in Virginia such as the Shanadoa Valley (Joel Salatin).

Lynn Sue wrote:@CJ Verde: cattle are herd animals. My suggestion would be to raise your steer collaboratively with a neighbor's animals. But to your question. A couple of acres of good pasture per beast if you can buy hay for the winter.

Lynn Sue wrote:Anyway, now I see it was a very old post and by now he probably has a whole herd

Lynn Sue wrote:@CJ: Sorry, it was Jerry's comment about raising one beef animal that I was responding to. Anyway, now I see it was a very old post and by now he probably has a whole herd

Jamie Duncan wrote: .One day a city-dweller stopped while I was out in the field and asked why I had cows outside in January......I asked him why all the other farmers have their cows inside in the middle of March and April. He just looked at me like deer in headlights......

Marie Lane wrote: I am wondering if anyone has seen the TED talk by Allen Savory about crowding for pasture restoration from desertification? Wondering how cramped you would need to make it for just 4 animals to do the job?

Chris Kott wrote:Considering the fact that in most places with snow cover, the available winter forage will either be what dried standing and got flattened or stayed standing, depending on the nature of the feed, wouldn't they need to eat more of the dead and dried stuff than they would if it were fresh?

Also, would it be possible for someone who understands Savory's reasoning, or the method by which such high stocking rates result in avoidance of desertification, and how this applies to winter grazing? Or does this belong in another thread? They;; Savory and co talk about fodder budgeting/ simple maths where a cow needs beetween 8 and 25 kg of green dry matter per day so it is the owners job to provide it ,im out of my depth with snow but im assuming the grass under it is still greenish and maintains a reasonable food value so you are probabley going to NOT graze a large amount of feed in the fall so you have a winter reserve
Eg ! cow eats 15kg times120 days= 1800 kg of hay or if the grass is 80% water she has to eat lots more im sure your USDA would have an explanation of this
I occasionally get a miniture calf in my herd,the last one i sold to a hobby farmer who sucessfully mated it to a normal bull
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Lastly for me, I was wondering what opinions on miniature cattle are, both meat and dairy. I ask because, firstly, one of the hardier (so I understand) heritage breeds, the Dexter, unless I am much mistaken, was bred originally to be less leggy and smaller for the purpose of being able to feed itself without any human intervention. Also, some of the more recent North American programs producing lowline cattle, with the same aims, claim to be able to keep twice the number of lowline cattle as normal sized cattle on the same grazing. So if your land was productive enough for one head per acre normally (so 10 acres=10 head), you'd be able to keep 2 lowline per acre (10 acres=20 head). The breeders claim that, for dairy and meat production both, per pound yield is actually increased, which, again, might be plausible if you consider that an animal husbandry program could easily select for a more squat animal with less leg, and perhaps more barrel to the body, or a wider frame.

I haven't heard from any cattle people on this subject, and I'd like to, as such a development would mean that people who previously might not be able to, say, keep a cow for milk now might. I'd also think that these cattle might be easier to keep, requiring less total feed in the event of emergency during particularly hard winters.

-CK

Adrien Lapointe wrote:I did a quick research and I found an article about a research project in Northern Ontario where there is a lot of snow. They were able to keep the cows on pasture until Dec 18th when snow was at 25 cm. They pulled the cows in when they started to lose weight. A while ago, I read in Grass-fed Cattles by Julius Ruechel that even if cow's condition deteriorates a bit through winter, they will bounce back quickly on Spring's grass.

Ross Gigee wrote:

Adrien Lapointe wrote:I did a quick research and I found an article about a research project in Northern Ontario where there is a lot of snow. They were able to keep the cows on pasture until Dec 18th when snow was at 25 cm. They pulled the cows in when they started to lose weight. A while ago, I read in Grass-fed Cattles by Julius Ruechel that even if cow's condition deteriorates a bit through winter, they will bounce back quickly on Spring's grass.

Not only do they bounce back very quickly after a late winter fast (in my experience w/ unbred goats) when they get onto spring forage, but the meat is tender because it is all new, so even an older animal will be tender in autumn when it's time to butcher.

Kevin MacBearach wrote:Well it won't work for dairy cows, but it's good to see more beef farmers doing this.

Problem is, the majority of these videos shows beef farmers that farm in the Midwest, or places of the Southeast, in Virginia such as the Shanadoa Valley (Joel Salatin). These are areas that have had grasslands growing on them for thousands of years, with root structures that go way down. But where I live in Western Oregon, where the trees have been very recently cut to make "pasture land," I very much doubt that the same quality of grass can be grown.

Adam Klaus wrote:I run a small acreage, management intensive dairy operation raising big Brown Swiss cattle. Last year was my most efficient hay feeding yet, the whole herd on 100% pasture until Dec 15. Then three months alfalfa hay in the loafing yard (14 one ton bales of alfalfa for 7 bovines). Then back to 100% pasture on March 15. I have generally 7 animal units (cows, heiffers, bulls) on 7 acres of excellent diverse pasture. Our milking season runs May-November, in perfect harmony with the grazing season. The energy needs of lactating cows vs dry cows is enormously different. Each year, I am trying to feed less hay, because that is a major part of my profit margin, considering the cost of quality hay.

One thing about feeding hay that is good for my herd, is the nurtitional value of good alfalfa hay versus stockpiled grass. My animals benefit from the high nutrient content of the alfalfa as a means to stockpile nutrients within their bodies as they grow their babies. My compost pile also benefits, as I am able to collect a large amount of their alfalfa-fed manure. Their loafing yard/shed is covered in woodchips. The following spring I use a loader to gather the manure and woodchip mess, and I compost it over the summer. When the cows are taken off the pasture in December, this compost is spread over my pastures just before the first lasting snows of the winter. So part of the cost of the manure is defrayed through its fertilizer value when turned into quality biodynamic compost.

For me, to go without any hay would be problematic for several reasons. The pasture sod would suffer a lot of damage during the deep snow months. The cows would really suffer nutritionally pawing through the snow to eat dried grass while growing babies. I also would have to defer grazing on large amounts of my pasture for winter grazing, thus vastly reducing the amount of pasture available to me during the summer and fall. Holistic management guides my hay feeding decision in this case.

Just wanted to share my experience with this, as most of my neighbors feed hay for 5+ months each year. I am happy with the system I have developed, and hope it helps you to find that holistic balance in your farms as well.

Nick Kitchener wrote:I was just thinking about storing winter feed in the field so the cattle stay out there all winter in a paddock shift style. There's no reason why small haystacks won't work and you move the cattle from stack to stack is there?