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deep roots - an alternative to buying land at wheaton labs  RSS feed

 
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Huge fan and total buy-in to what You folks are doing! Unfortunately, I live on the other side of these country... Very interested in replicating this model in Virginia / West Virginia. Would it be ok to post your stats on how many acres you have left and how many folks have already plunked down the cash for this? Wish you guys or like minded folks were doing this closer to Virginia!

Jimbo
 
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I want to make it clear that there are no more two acre offers. There are one acre offers. Although I suppose that a person could get two one acre spots.
 
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I have a few questions regarding deep roots. If we decide to start living as deep roots, obviously wofati or tiny house has to be build. Is there some folks on the lab who can build it, and at what price and when?

Also, probably you already have some deep roots folks who were in the same situation. How they approached this challenge? Where they lived while their wofati/tiny house was build?

How many deep roots folks you already have living a full time? What their daily tasks/chores are?

Currently, besides the contraction what other job/tasks can be done on the lab for wage/reward?

What other challenges we should expect in the beginning?
 
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Natalie Kulik wrote:I have a few questions regarding deep roots. If we decide to start living as deep roots, obviously wofati or tiny house has to be build. Is there some folks on the lab who can build it, and at what price and when?


The wofati is still experimental. We have built two so far, and the earthen umbrella is still not complete on both. So, while we have some people with wofati experience who want to make extra money here at wheaton labs, even if we knew what size or specifications you wanted, I don't know that we would have estimated prices or timelines just yet. Prices could be worked out per log (dropped and peeled) and time and materials for the build.

Natalie Kulik wrote:Also, probably you already have some deep roots folks who were in the same situation. How they approached this challenge? Where they lived while their wofati/tiny house was build?


We currently have two deep roots folks who want to hire folks to build them a wofati. One lives in Missoula, one lives out of state.

Natalie Kulik wrote:How many deep roots folks you already have living a full time? What their daily tasks/chores are?


Currently, there are no deep roots folks living here full time. As of today, we have 12 full time residents who share meals at base camp (this fluctuates with gappers and workshop participants coming and going) plus Tim's family of 5 who join us occasionally for meals.

Natalie Kulik wrote:Currently, besides the contraction what other job/tasks can be done on the lab for wage/reward?


As I posted on 6/27 back in the first page of this thread,

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:
Q. Do you have suggestions what a family could do to both help build/support the empire/wheaton labs and earn money?
A. Paul supports and envisions people coming up with their own homestead-style industries or work. We do not want folks living here and commuting to a job in town. Paul outlined some paid job ideas in the paid job on lab / build infrastructure thread which are construction-type jobs. One example of a homestead-type income is that Paul's household here currently purchases meat from his brother Tim's cattle.


I could add that early on, Paul envisioned a variety of paid positions here, though we do not have funding for these - yet. We did hire a personal assistant, so this position is filled at this time. And we did hire a kitchen commander, which will be opening up again in October.

Natalie Kulik wrote:What other challenges we should expect in the beginning?


Gosh, that's a loaded question. And the answer is, "it depends." The people who do the best here have listened to all the podcasts. That is the best preparation for what you might expect here.
 
paul wheaton
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For all people with deep roots and for all people that purchase deep roots this year, I wish to offer the following offer redeemable now through 2016:

16 hours of excavator and driver (or 64 hours of tractor), plus 8 pieces of candy.

1 piece of candy = (one of the following)

2 hours with the excavator and driver
8 hours of tractor
1 day with the sawmill
1 day in the shop
1 day with the pickup
1 weekend stay in the tipi (maybe for a guest)
1 day of an EV
3 days of electric chainsaw
4 days of the voltswagon
4 days of the log arch
 
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This is such a great opportunity for folks that need some free rein to really experiment with permaculture - Paul's offer of 2 acres for 1 is bound to get some attention, so I'd act fast if this is something you've been pondering for a while!
deep-roots-paul-saying.jpg
[Thumbnail for deep-roots-paul-saying.jpg]
 
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Jocelyn Campbell wrote: ... Q. How far is base camp from the lab - especially section 1?
A. Base camp and the lab are close together: a little over a mile as the crow flies, and a little over two miles by road. Which is a comfortable biking distance apart, though a bit long to walk on a regular basis. Section 1 in both the laboratory and the new Armin property next to it are the first part that you reach at the lab.

Q. Do you have parcels for sale? Where are the section 1 parcels?
A. Deep roots is not a parcel sale. It's different than that. We are not selling land. We're calling it a deep roots spot, not a parcel, and the spots are selected out of many acres by the person signing up for deep roots. Currently, there is a lot of acreage to choose from in picking your spot, though this is likely to change as time goes by. The section 1 spots at the lab are in the first part of the land that a person reaches at the lab and Armin's adjacent property. As you go further into the property, the restrictions tighten up.



Forgive me if I've missed it, is there a simple map of the parcels and site, what is already spoken for etc.?
 
Lacia Lynne Bailey
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paul wheaton wrote:...All current deep roots owners get an additional acre added to their plot.  

... for the next seven days:   two acres for the current one acre price.   http://www.permies.com/t/57467/tnk/fishing-coin-july



Forgive me, I've read all I can for hours and do not see the answers, but I don't always find what I need on this site.  My inadequacy of attention, smaller computing power and screen probably.

Couple questions:
1.  Will this mean for current owners that their acres will likely be not contiguous?  Are people choosing acres that are separated?
2.  With the hexagonal layout, how are access roads being handled?   Even in the sections with less vehicles allowed, there's still some electric and/or people will be using horse carts or ?
3.  On the "no vehicles" variations, I'm assuming that means on a regular basis after some initial move in of materials or ?
4.  The last prices I see are from a couple years ago, I assume those are the "current" ones?
5.  Is there any separate news/email/forum for deep roots owners?  Or all communication and planning is public here somewhere?
6.  Is there a map?  Sorry, I've not been able to find one after a long time of looking here.
 
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Lacia Lynne Bailey wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:...All current deep roots owners get an additional acre added to their plot.  

... for the next seven days:   two acres for the current one acre price.   http://www.permies.com/t/57467/tnk/fishing-coin-july



Forgive me, I've read all I can for hours and do not see the answers, but I don't always find what I need on this site.  My inadequacy of attention, smaller computing power and screen probably.

Couple questions:
1.  Will this mean for current owners that their acres will likely be not contiguous?  Are people choosing acres that are separated?
2.  With the hexagonal layout, how are access roads being handled?   Even in the sections with less vehicles allowed, there's still some electric and/or people will be using horse carts or ?
3.  On the "no vehicles" variations, I'm assuming that means on a regular basis after some initial move in of materials or ?
4.  The last prices I see are from a couple years ago, I assume those are the "current" ones?
5.  Is there any separate news/email/forum for deep roots owners?  Or all communication and planning is public here somewhere?
6.  Is there a map?  Sorry, I've not been able to find one after a long time of looking here.



Hi Lacia, I don't know the answers to all of these, but until Paul has a chance to jump in here, I think I can say that there most likely isn't a map of the property on Permies, for privacy and security reasons.

 
paul wheaton
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Lacia Lynne Bailey wrote:
Forgive me if I've missed it, is there a simple map of the parcels and site, what is already spoken for etc.?



There are 200 acres.  A deep roots person is allowed to pick their own plot from what remains.

 
paul wheaton
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Lacia Lynne Bailey wrote:
1.  Will this mean for current owners that their acres will likely be not contiguous?  Are people choosing acres that are separated?



There are not "owners", but "deep roots plots people on deep roots plots."

Yes, their plot will be contiguous.



2.  With the hexagonal layout, how are access roads being handled?   Even in the sections with less vehicles allowed, there's still some electric and/or people will be using horse carts or ?



There are roads at this time.  And vehicle use.  Eventually, I like the idea that we will discourage vehicle usage and limit things to bikes/peds and maybe small ev use.  



3.  On the "no vehicles" variations, I'm assuming that means on a regular basis after some initial move in of materials or ?



A lot of the current residents will usually stay on the land for a week or more at a time.



4.  The last prices I see are from a couple years ago, I assume those are the "current" ones?



I update the first post or two of this thread as needed.



5.  Is there any separate news/email/forum for deep roots owners?  Or all communication and planning is public here somewhere?



We use email from time to time.  

This forum is packed with pictures, maps and discussion of stuff going on on the 200 acres.



6.  Is there a map?



a couple of maps: http://www.permies.com/t/49643/labs/Maps-wheaton-laboratories

an overhead view of some of the ant plots: http://www.permies.com/t/44793/labs/ant-village

Some pics: http://www.permies.com/t/46350/labs/gapper-program

the oceans of discussion, pics, video, etc: http://www.permies.com/forums/f-102/labs
 
paul wheaton
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Some questions via email:

where is this at?



Within an hour of missoula.


is there water to the area?



Three wells have been dug that currently have water.  More wells are going in.   We will be using a variety of permaculture techniques to hold water on the land in a collection of ponds and then add in a variety of other techniques (air wells, humus wells, hidden ponds ...) to add to that through the dry season.   We will also put a solar pump on some of the wells to fill cisterns and add to the water through the sunny days.  Plus, there is a dry creek bed and we intend to bring the water back to that creek.

 
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I should say that I am hopeful that while a resident might have one or two acres, that they will bring a variety of animals and make use of dozens or hundreds of acres.   I wish to do something that is like a salatin-style-fiefdom where the same 100 acres serves 40 different symbiotic business models.  
 
Jocelyn Campbell
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paul wheaton wrote:
a couple of maps: http://www.permies.com/t/49643/labs/Maps-wheaton-laboratories


I posted a brief ant village update to that map thread - maybe we'll have some kind soul update the map for us later this year after a few more ants arrive.

Current deep roots acres are not yet on this map. Those might be nice to add as well.

paul wheaton wrote:I should say that I am hopeful that while a resident might have one or two acres, that they will bring a variety of animals and make use of dozens or hundreds of acres.   I wish to do something that is like a salatin-style-fiefdom where the same 100 acres serves 40 different symbiotic business models.  


The map really drives this home, I think. When Tim and Kristie had cattle and pigs at the lab, their animals' favorite place to graze was the dances with pigs meadow, which one land restoration expert thought could be a very ancient meadow (meaning it's likely a resilient, stable, healthy grassland eco-system). Besides access to hundreds of acres for grazing, a resident could own one or two critters, yet combine them in a herd with other animals owned by other residents, both for the animal's sake and the people's sake.


 
Lacia Lynne Bailey
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Jocelyn Campbell wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:
...

paul wheaton wrote:I should say that I am hopeful that while a resident might have one or two acres, that they will bring a variety of animals and make use of dozens or hundreds of acres.   I wish to do something that is like a salatin-style-fiefdom where the same 100 acres serves 40 different symbiotic business models.  


The map really drives this home, I think. When Tim and Kristie had cattle and pigs at the lab, their animals' favorite place to graze was the dances with pigs meadow, which one land restoration expert thought could be a very ancient meadow (meaning it's likely a resilient, stable, healthy grassland eco-system). Besides access to hundreds of acres for grazing, a resident could own one or two critters, yet combine them in a herd with other animals owned by other residents, both for the animal's sake and the people's sake.



Very awesome.  I grew up with some open rangeland and its a good model if people are responsible.  Each species has a larger area to find their niche, more of it gets appropriately used.

I'm late to this deal. Pretty interested, $8-16K for 2 acres is doable and enticing, but need a real map with the different deep roots sections.  I don't know why I get so overwhelmed on this website, but every post seems to reference so many others and I get lost trying to compile the info I need.  I get the privacy maps issue, I'm surprised to see names, I was just looking for a block map of the various deep roots sections, blocks of what's staked already, clear maker of main features, etc.

 
paul wheaton
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Deep roots plots are pretty much anywhere on the lab that is not already taken.  

The cheaper plots are on "oehla" or "basecamp".  I am guessing that you are not interested in basecamp?  Oehla is going to be on the northern 20% of the lab.  

 
paul wheaton
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There is just an hour left to go before the deep roots offer goes back to being one acre instead of two.  And the price of pie goes back to the regular price.
 
paul wheaton
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how do you feel about some more exotic pets (after integration and caged properly) such as sugar gliders and iguanas to list a few?



Sounds fine.

Somebody was gonna set up a lot of raptor stuff a while back.  Also sounds good to me.  I like the idea if such folks would be okay with such interesting critters being part of the general tour.



 
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So if I buy 2 acres, when I die the land goes back to you? Would like there to be a way to pass it down to my kids
 
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Kristen Phillips wrote:So if I buy 2 acres, when I die the land goes back to you? Would like there to be a way to pass it down to my kids



The only way to pass it to your kids is if I thought you were cool and they were cool so I gifted it to your kids.

 
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paul wheaton wrote:

Kristen Phillips wrote:So if I buy 2 acres, when I die the land goes back to you? Would like there to be a way to pass it down to my kids



The only way to pass it to your kids is if I thought you were cool and they were cool so I gifted it to your kids.

b

Haha. Okay.  So what happens if we outlive you? Just hypothetical.. we are in our early 30's
 
paul wheaton
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Kristen Phillips wrote:
Haha. Okay.  So what happens if we outlive you? Just hypothetical.. we are in our early 30's



We have plans in place.  But I think you can understand that we don't share those plans.

This is "rent for life" so it does not pass on when the life thing ends.  And it is "your life", not mine.  

Further, this is for community and this is for permaculture and this is for the advancement of permaculture.  This is "an alternative to buying land" which is only for a very few people that wish to be part of what we are doing here.  

There are thousands of farmers that each own hundreds of acres (or more) and they are coming close to their expiration date.  They hate their kids and wish they had somebody with some work ethic and values to will their land to.  

I fully expect that most people will look at this and find deep roots to be utterly unacceptable - those people will do something else.   At the same time, I think that five years from now, we won't have any plots left.  With 300 acres we will be "full" with something like 25 1 acre plots taken.  



 
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Sounds good. I think we will be in contact and try to come this summer for boots or to do the 'buying' thing. How much is the current price for a 1 acre plot and for a 2 acre? We'd want to pay in 1 lump sum.
 
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Kristen Phillips wrote:Sounds good. I think we will be in contact and try to come this summer for boots or to do the 'buying' thing. How much is the current price for a 1 acre plot and for a 2 acre? We'd want to pay in 1 lump sum.




1 acre is currently $21,000.

2 acres for one person is currently $36,000

 
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By one person what do you mean? We'd be buying with the intention that myself, my husband and our children would love there at least part time. We are really excited about the possibilities of your place! I'm pretty sure we'd want 2 acres.
And I'm assuming permits, etc. aren't a problem? We live in California where you practically can't hang a flag without the okay of the permitting dept. so don't know what the set up is on your land.
 
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Kristen Phillips wrote:By one person what do you mean?



One person is the deep roots person.   That person can have friends or family there provided that everybody follows our residence stuff.



And I'm assuming permits, etc. aren't a problem?



There are my standards, which become clearer as you listen to the podcasts.  Which is why we have the requirement of listening to at least 200 podcasts.  

I selected this area so that I could freely build without permits.  
 
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As of April 29, 2017, how many "boots-to-roots" spots are still available?
 
paul wheaton
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Jack Nelson wrote:As of April 29, 2017, how many "boots-to-roots" spots are still available?



Three.
 
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Hi Paul--

Let's say that I want to become a deep roots person (and let's say I've listened to the podcast and I still want to come in), and I would like to rent-for-my-life 2-acres, in husp. How do I choose my spot if you haven't yet divided the four sections up? Do you have a general rough idea for the layout of the four sections? Where will husp be?

Will 2-acres be one larger circle? Or 2 small circles?

How many total deep roots plots will you have in each section? And what will the land around the plots be used for?

We would obviously need to access our plot through the land given the lack of roads; is any deep root person able to use any of the entire land (200 acres?) that is not a "private" plot?

I don't want synthetics or plastics or packages or paint, so husp is where I would want to be. But we would want internet access once in a while. Is there a space for any deep roots person to use internet that is step up? Or would I need to rent-for-life a deep roots acre that's my "office"? Basically, what else is included for a deep roots person?

If I wanted to own a car for occasional use, is there a space somewhere to keep it?

What if someone living within husp left the land and ate somewhere else....would they need to spend a day detoxing and pooping in in another zone before entering husp?

For building within husp, can allowed materials be brought in? Glass?

Why are no fires allowed within husp? Why not a beeswax candle? I didn't find this answer written anywhere. Just curious.

I have more questions but will start with these...

Thank you for this vision!
 
paul wheaton
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Oof,

The huspa section ...   I keep thinking that it is for a mental exercise rather than anybody actually trying to build and live that way.  I suppose people do love a challenge.  

2-acres:  typically a larger circle.  But we have done all sorts of interesting shapes, so the circle is more of a default.


How many total deep roots plots will you have in each section?



My crystal ball has never worked worth a damn.   It seems that a lot of stuff is always changing based on who is willing to come and be part of this project and what they want.   I suspect that the people that come early will have the largest influence over the future of the project.


And what will the land around the plots be used for?



Paddock shift stuff.  Plus a form of agriculture very much resembling the agriculture on this land 500 years ago.   Possibly collective gardens.  


is any deep root person able to use any of the entire land (200 acres?) that is not a "private" plot?



That is the plan.  And that is what is happening now.   When the ants build stuff, they use trees from other parts of the lab.  

When there were animals on the land in the past, they were pulsed through all of the lab.  


But we would want internet access once in a while.



My old office has desks and chairs for a few people.  We are now trying to call it "the library".  People have free internet there and we even have a couple of old laptops available.


If I wanted to own a car for occasional use, is there a space somewhere to keep it?



I like the idea that eventually we have berm sheds in the first section for cars.


What if someone living within husp left the land and ate somewhere else....would they need to spend a day detoxing and pooping in in another zone before entering husp?



No.  

At the same time, I would think that if somebody had values that strong, this is not that much of an issue.




For building within husp, can allowed materials be brought in? Glass?



Yes.


Why are no fires allowed within husp? Why not a beeswax candle?



First, keep in mind that all of my writings about the fourth section were before I bought property.  

Next, keep in mind that we have not yet drawn these lines, and there is still a lot of work to do to get things set up in that general direction.

more:   the idea of huspa is mostly a mental exercise ideal rather than expecting anybody to actually rise to such a challenge.  

finally:  The beeswax candle, when burned, puts toxins into the air.  




 
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Yes beeswax candles release toxins and so does fire so I get that. But why is husp only a mental exercise? The winter presents a challenge, but...I'm sure you have ideas for heating without fire, which is where I am feeling the biggest challenge is. Compost for heat? Zero plastic/paint/etc is not hard. No lights is also not hard. Eating only from the land without outside organic material even without fire seems pretty easy when animals are part of the scene. Raw milk and raw and dried meat and raw eggs? You could live off that alone and be totally healthy and happy. Fruit in summer and dried fruit in winter? No synthetic clothing is also not hard.

What is the biggest challenge for husp life? Many people in the world live in "husp"....

Someone could have one acre in husp and one acre outside husp and go get warm by the wood stove outside of husp and eat a pot of stew and take a hot bath and then go back home to husp? For a luxurious husp life...
 
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Cayo Seraphim wrote: why is husp only a mental exercise?



First, let's make sure we are talking about the same thing.  In this thread I try to create disambiguations.

So, the fourth section, "huspa" is what we are talking about, right?


To answer your question, I'm gonna copy and paste what i said in the post just above your most recent post:

I keep thinking that it is for a mental exercise rather than anybody actually trying to build and live that way.  I suppose people do love a challenge.  



So I am not saying "no" I am saying that I certainly do not have all the answers.   It is a brutally tough standard to actually live by.

Coming up with solutions in this space would be fascinating.  I think if somebody does it, then it would be hugely educational to me.  

As is, when things are built now, we are struggling with the idea of "how do we do this without glue?" or paint, or cement, or plastic or ....    and the answer keeps coming back to something about "spend a LOT more money" or "take a LOT more time" or, the worst of all "let's set it aside for now and hope an answer presents itself".



Someone could have one acre in husp and one acre outside husp and go get warm by the wood stove outside of husp and eat a pot of stew and take a hot bath and then go back home to husp? For a luxurious husp life...



True.  And as a thought experiment, how might they have an even more luxuriant life but stay true to the husp standard?

But to travel that thought path, it might be best to start a new thread.
 
Cayo Seraphim
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Yes we are talking about huspa! The land you own.

It's challenging but possible. Constraints usually lead to amazing things, like sonnets and Italian food (what can you make with just flour, water and maybe a tomato?).

What about this idea? What if you were to give away deep roots parcels to anyone willing to start creating within a year, willing to start living there within 3 years, and willing to make a comfortable place to live (as per your challenge about a more luxuriant life...so it's not just about surviving in a pile of leaves).

You could fill huspa first, with 10-20 parcels. And see what happens. You would have nothing to lose and they would have nothing to lose, and we all would have a lot to gain.

 
paul wheaton
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Cayo,

I think you found a perfect recipe for your own land.  Go ahead and buy 200 acres and give the plots away.  Let us know how that turns out.

 
Cayo Seraphim
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If I had 200 acres and if I were the Duke of permaculture, I would be happy to give away 10-20 acres within the whole project, if it would help everyone and inspire the world.

The spirit of the idea was not about you losing money, but rather about incentivizing innovation in the zone where you think no one will live anyway (I personally would be happy pay to live there, however). And of course you wouldn't be "giving the land away" because it's always your land, and all improvements belong to you, and you can terminate at any time...And no one can pass it on to their children, etc.

Instead of "free", it could just be priced for less (and increase the price of the other zones so you make the same amount of money).

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting idea, for permaculture and the world!
 
paul wheaton
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Perhaps what we should do is have 200 people each put in $100 - each puts in information about how they are most qualified.  And maybe the top dozen come out for interviews and stuff.  And then we pick the best?
 
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speaking more literally of "the agreement going south" - Josh Ritchey, i like this idea (good values, land stewardship, and like-minded neighbors), but feel i am more fitting for a place closer to the equator... like southern india, mexico, etc.  any ideas?

and yeah, i can make more-normal money and purchase land... but, this deep roots type of good work for 2 years to earn the land is clearly a better way to me. like when i KNOW this (permaculture stuff) is good, fitting work, it would be less of me to make money in more conventional ways... but of course, if i don't know specific places/communities offering this kind of opportunity, then ?i may have to settle for the more-normal money making now? timing is important, but again, any ideas of this opportunity more south? i'm thinking the fellowship for intentional community may be able to help here now..

also, i guess if people got land there, then wanted to settle somewhere else, they could sell it, but especially with the very-to-radically different values from more-normal society we permies seem to share, ?is "time sharing" (but for settling, and not necessarily the currently common vacationing-use) relevant here?

thanks for ya'll help!
 
Jocelyn Campbell
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Keshav Boddula wrote:speaking more literally of "the agreement going south" - Josh Ritchey, i like this idea (good values, land stewardship, and like-minded neighbors), but feel i am more fitting for a place closer to the equator... like southern india, mexico, etc.  any ideas?


Hi Keshav! We've had quite a few visitors here prefer southern climates, so I get that. I'd recommend exploring the intential communities forums here on permies, or look in your favorite regional forum.

Also, coming from the cool, mild climate of the Seattle area (very mild, cool summers, and damp, cool but rarely frosty winters), folks ask me all the time how do I handle Montana weather with "real" summer heat and "real" winters? I actually prefer it to Seattle for a lot of reasons, but for more details and data on the weather around here, I created a thread about the weather at wheaton labs.

Good luck to you and I hope you find the right fit!

 
Keshav Boddula
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hm, ok. thanks jocelyn.
 
It's weird that we cook bacon and bake cookies. Eat this tiny ad:
Self-Sufficiency in MO -- 10 acres of Eden, looking for a renter who can utilize and appreciate it.
https://permies.com/t/95939/Sufficiency-MO-acres-Eden-renter
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