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meat chicken return on investment

 
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Isabelle Gendron wrote: it took them 12 weeks to grow and it gave me birds aroud 5 pounds...



Hi Isabelle- This relationship here is why your birds seemed to need grain 'as if their lives depended on it'. The breed you were raising is too fast growing for a good permaculture bird. When we raise slower growing birds, they need less protein on a daily basis, and as such can gain a larger percentage of their diet from foraging. The result is less grain.

I think the 'next generation' pasture broilers are great, for what they are. But for folks aiming to raise meat chickens in a permaculture way, with as little grain as possible, I really think that the 'old fashion' breeds are the way to go.

good luck!
 
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Adam, you are right about that, but I taught that we were talking about commercial poultry, I mean, chicken you raise to sell. If you are talking about the chicken you are using on the orchard or around the farm, well, honestly, I don't think there is a way to have them ¨profitable¨...I think 12 weeks to have the chicken grow a nice format, foraging all the time was ok (compare to the 6-8 weeks for Ross chicken). The only problem I had was the organic grains that were veryyy expensive and got my cost higher.....

Otherwise, my Chantecler chicken take around 7-8 months to mature. They forage a lot, free range, but eat a lot of grains also. Actually I am very surprise of the quantity of grians they eat. Even when free ranging, when I put the grains at night and in the mornig, they eat like hell. If I will have to sell them ¨commercialy speeking¨ the price would be way to high.

Or maybe I don't understand the topic...that is possible also

Isabelle
 
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I put the grains at night and in the morning, they eat like hell.



Aha. That may be part of the problem. It is normal to feed them in the evening (which encourages them to come home, plus the extra calories helps 'em through the night).

But if they get grains in the morning, they go onto the pasture with full bellies. Less inclined to hunt for their food. If they go onto that pasture hungry, they will scrounge around for whatever they can find. This also reduces the amount of grains they will eat in the evening if they are stuffing their craws all day on what nature intended them to eat.



 
Isabelle Gendron
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OMG...well, what can I say? Stupid me...you are right of course....And I think I should do the same thing in winter also if I want them to scatch my deep litter. The only concern would be the caloric need considering the cold temp...well this is another subject, I will open a new post to avoid spaming this one...

Thank you John

isabelle
 
John Polk
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If you are overwintering birds in zone 4, you will likely need to provide 'breakfast' as well.
But for summer meat birds...nah.

 
Isabelle Gendron
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That's what I tought...thank you..
 
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Isabelle Gendron wrote:Adam, you are right about that, but I taught that we were talking about commercial poultry, I mean, chicken you raise to sell. If you are talking about the chicken you are using on the orchard or around the farm, well, honestly, I don't think there is a way to have them ¨profitable¨



It would probably be best to not get too bogged down in established notions of "profitable." I'm charging $5.50/lb. for heritage chickens, and while I'm not getting rich it's a nice little niche market. Contrary to popular opinion, a farmer can be profitable with heritage chickens. (Just check out what Frank Reese is doing in Kansas--shipping his chickens all over the country.) It just takes a certain kind of customer who is willing to pay more for a better bird.

As for chickens just being used "around the farm," even if I butcher them and only break even on my costs, I've gotten pest control and manure for the entire grow-out period free of charge. And like someone once said, a penny saved...
 
Isabelle Gendron
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Wes Hunter wrote:

Isabelle Gendron wrote:Adam, you are right about that, but I taught that we were talking about commercial poultry, I mean, chicken you raise to sell. If you are talking about the chicken you are using on the orchard or around the farm, well, honestly, I don't think there is a way to have them ¨profitable¨



It would probably be best to not get too bogged down in established notions of "profitable." I'm charging $5.50/lb. for heritage chickens, and while I'm not getting rich it's a nice little niche market. Contrary to popular opinion, a farmer can be profitable with heritage chickens. (Just check out what Frank Reese is doing in Kansas--shipping his chickens all over the country.) It just takes a certain kind of customer who is willing to pay more for a better bird.

As for chickens just being used "around the farm," even if I butcher them and only break even on my costs, I've gotten pest control and manure for the entire grow-out period free of charge. And like someone once said, a penny saved...



Of course. I am not saying they are usefull...just that considering the time it takes to grow them make them harder to sell. yes it is a niche, but there is often a difference (unfortunatly) between what people want and what they are willing to pay for...here at least....

My heritage chicken are free range and help me a lot. I don't know Franck Reese (well I don't think so) I will go and check this thank you.

Of course a farmer can be profitable, but there is also a difference between profitable and being livable (in the sens of make me live not sure if it is clear I can sell my chicken 4$/lbs and that chicken is profitable, but if I can sell only a couple of tehm well I will not live on this and still have to go work outside the far wich I don't want....I understand your point and basically we are all saying the same or at least wishing the same. Being able to live from our farm product. personnaly I think it could be possible with a large range of product that have a good profitability margin. As for the chicken, I guess, like you said, you have to find your niche. Unfortunatly for now here, people want the best for the least so I think I will grow only my Chantecler for our consumption.

Isabelle
 
Wes Hunter
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I more than understand the difficulties in marketing heritage birds profitably, and it frustrates me to no end. I wouldn't want to claim that a farmer could make boatloads of money raising these breeds, but, again, Frank Reese. (Whether or not he's making "boatloads of money," I can't say, but he is profitable.)

Personally I find it inhumane to raise the modern hybrid broilers, and I wish that more farmers would open up their eyes to this and start raising something else. Too many of them are too willing to turn a blind eye to the problems inherent in the fast growing hybrids because, hey, that's what the customer wants... If the customer's only choice was between pasture-raised heritage birds and confinement-house Cornish-Rock Cross, with no middle ground, I think more would pony up the extra money for the former. They might not buy as many, or as often, but it would open up a lot of eyes and benefit the farmer and customer alike.

Really, I think the market for heritage birds is probably a lot bigger than anybody gives it credit for. But it's going to take a lot of education to realize the fullness of that market. Even the most food-ignorant among us know about different breeds of beef cattle (due in large part to the Angus association's successful marketing strategy), but who really knows about different breeds of meat chickens? When was the last time McDonald's advertised their "Chantecler Chicken McNuggets"? Not as recently as their competition advertised a new Angus burger, I can tell you that. When your average local chicken farmer only differentiates him/herself from the industry by raising "pastured" poultry, with no mention of breed since the breed is the same, how are consumers going to know? But when they start to learn that their cheap(er) chicken comes at the expense of birds that died of heart attacks before they could be processed, or of crippled birds that had to drag themselves through manure cakes to the feed trough, or any of the other problems inherent in those breeds, many of them will be more than willing to spend their money elsewhere, if they have the option.

All of that to say it's a worthy market, and it's a wholly different market than your standard "pastured poultry" fare. We need more farmers dedicated to serving it, and fewer gloomy-eyed farmers talking about how it can't be done.

/soapbox
 
Isabelle Gendron
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Yes it will take time and a lot of work. For example, here with our ¨good governement¨ willing to protect us, I can't raise more than 100 layers and 100 broilers (any regards of the breeds just to make you understand) and 20 turkeys...otherwise, I need to buy a quota and this quota is very expensive. The only way to repay it it's if you are big enough to dilute the price ( ex: 5$/bird until 1500 birds free after that) these are not the real numbers but you understand the mecanic. I would never grow that much birds, but I wish they will let us, little farmers, go up a little more. This would allow us to approch local restaurant and stores....with only 100 birds a year, it is hard to work that way,.

I just take a look at Reese's website. Can you tell me what is he doing exactly? He is selling chicks and mature birds is that it? Not meat? Not sure I undestand this right.

isabelle
 
Wes Hunter
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Well, God forbid small farmers be able to raise 101 meat birds. That would surely destroy the Canadian economy, or something.

Frank Reese, from what I understand, is basically the founder and owner of a company (Good Shepherd Poultry Ranch) that sells processed meat birds (not live birds) retail. They ship across the United States, and maybe across the border for that matter. My understanding is there is a small network of local farmers that raise the birds, I guess more or less on contract. Reese himself is better known for heritage turkeys, but a couple of the others raise a few breeds of heritage chickens.
 
John Polk
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At least here in the States, there is another niche market that many are not going after: Ethnic groups.

Many immigrants are totally dismayed by how tasteless the commercial market chickens are.
Maybe many of them cannot afford the higher price for free ranged, heritage breeds all the time, but especially for those festive occasions, they feel the need to get a fine bird like they used to get 'at home'.

I know one man in particular that claims that half of his customers have trouble speaking English, but they readily dig deeper into their pockets for a chicken that actually tastes like chicken. Most are repeat customers, and ask when he will have more. People who haven't been here so long that they have forgotten what a chicken tastes like can be eager customers.

As Kelly Klober says "Cornish-X's were developed for the McNugget and Chicken Tenders market."

 
Isabelle Gendron
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Actually put it the quebec's economy...2 layers of governement here (actually 3 with the cities) here....these politics (agriculture) comes from the provincial governement. Yes we would certainly put the local economy in danger...

Thanks for the infos about Frank Reese. Not so clear on the site.

isabelle
 
Isabelle Gendron
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John, what a nice statement....

You know what? That post gave me another way to view my heritage chicken but most of all, a new way of ¨marketing¨them.. I like Frank Reese's way and attitude...and I appreciate also the immigrant point of view...

Thanks.

isabelle
 
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Hi Folks I thought you may be interested in this .my GF works at an organic shop here in Angers , France they are selling 4kg organic geese for ...........wait for it ......................undressed .......yup that right whole not gutted .....in a nice fancy box ...with full instructions .......over a 100€ thats over $130
Here is a link to the farm
http://lafermeduloriot.fr/volailles.php

David
 
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David, is the high price because the birds are considered a delicacy or economic reasons? That's amazing
 
Isabelle Gendron
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Great video...it is just that I can view it till the end, the video stops??? I would like to know more about the way is selling them...not guttered? I guess he doesn't cut the throat? That is really amazing....

Thank you for that

Isabelle
 
David Livingston
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Jeremy
The French will pay lots for a high status quality product and this has come from the south of France But I personally thing they are chancing it . The shop also sells their Guinea Fowl Capons and Turkey at more reasonable prices. But only has one Goose I will let you all know if it sells or not .
I can not see how a goose which I suspect has been fed mainly on Grass should be 25`€ a kilo but hey if they can sell them at this price go for it guys , I wont be buying .
Incidently I am surprised on this threat the possibility of selling Capons has not been discussed as an option for meat birds.

Isabel
I will ask my GF to see if she can find out if they are bled and how the birds are killed . But yes they are not gutted . Getting the consumer to do your work for you seems a great ploy . Although I doubt it would work in the states on the whole . Here in France and other european countries maybe . I know markets here where you can still buy your chickens live if you want . I am sure there are some minority groups who would like to buy chickens live from you in the states either for cultural or religious reasons you need to go out there search these people out if you live there .

David

 
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One thing that has been true through the ages : The first generation - the pioneers - bites the bullet and eats the big costs . To see any operation like the ones we are talking about become truely profitable it must continue from generation to generation . Wendell Berry anyone ?

" See that the old and young take care of one another. The young must learn from the old, not necessarily, and not always in school. There must be no institutionalised childcare and no homes for the aged. The community knows and remembers itself by the association of old and young. "

 
Isabelle Gendron
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Thanks David...

Wayne personnal question...do you homeschool? I like the citation that you have included great.
 
Jeremey Weeks
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I'm ashamed to say that I had to look up what a capon was, David. I wonder if there's a market for that where I am. Thanks for bringing it up.

BTW, I have six geese that are fully grown. I'd sell them to you for much cheaper!
 
Wes Hunter
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The capon market will almost certainly be small, but I bet it's there. Used to be a pretty common item.

I sat in on a caponizing demonstration that a friend did this spring. It was surprisingly simple. They lost a couple of birds, if I recall, but I think the survival rate was at least 95%.

I like the idea of offering capons, as a further diversification of farm poultry products, but I don't castrate my bulls or my boars, and though I don't feel like it's any problem to castrate cockerels (I'm guessing because they're not mammals--seems to affect the way I, at least, view them) I feel like I should have a problem with it.
 
Adam Klaus
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I experimented a bit with capons a few years ago. It didnt work out so good. The 'procedure' is a skilled minor surgery. The learning curve resulted in quite a few fatalities. So there was that. Then, when I started talking to folks about buying capons, nobody knew what I was talking about. Even top class chefs in Aspen needed an education on chicken sexuality. They were intrigued, and interested, but capons were nothing really worth a premium to them.

On the opposite side of the coin, I am more interested in educating my customers about the value of non-castrated meat animals. Particularly bull beef. My experience is that young bull beef has an energetic power and nutritious flavor that is absolutely superior to steer meat. I believe in the concept, you are what you eat. Who wants to be a dickless steer? We need more 'balls' in our society, these days. So bull beef has a density of flavor that belies its underlying strength. I want the strength and courage of a bull. I eat to achieve this goal.
 
Jeremey Weeks
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Interesting thoughts, Wes.

I have no problem with the idea of castrating the birds. The only time I plan to do this to anything else will be castrate my cull piglets that will be for sale. Different topic, I know.
 
David Livingston
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Isabelle
I am sure you could find a market in francophone Qubec:-) for capons
David
 
David Livingston
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Jeremy
Would love to buy some geese but postage could ne an issue
David
 
Isabelle Gendron
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Hummm David, not sure about that. I'm not sure that people would appreciate to know that we are castrating birds. Maybe good restaurant in Downtown Montreal or Quebec, but I am kind of far from those marketing. Don't think I want to éducate andargue against the aniamls rights defenders that will be against this you know what I mean. I think the French market (from France) is more aware of all this with your culinary culture.

Isa
 
David Livingston
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Shy bairns get nowt - translation timid children will recieve nothing
Isabelle why dont you ask a few " french " restaurants ie ones that dont sell cheesy chips Ask if they sell it And if not why not? If they say they cannot get any make your pitch. I am certain some of them Will have french trained chiefs who dont need telling what a " chapon " is. Worth a few phone calls who knows what it might lead too maybe eggs And other stuff.

David

David
 
Isabelle Gendron
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Good idea...but like I said, they are far from the farm...for me going deliver there it is a 3 hours to go and 3 hours to come back...minimum depending where they are. Depending of the price I can sell them...I have to see and calculate...

As for the eggs forgette it. I can't sell them outside the farm unless I have a quota....If the come here and buy them at the farm it is another thing...

But a good hint...I will make a couple of phone calls...and watch some video to see how they do that. I have quarter my deer this year, and sanring rabbit (and of course cleaning them) and culling my birds....I guess castrating them shouldn't be so hard?

isabelle
 
David Livingston
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The goose sold yesterday 27€ a kilo 4 kilo 108 euro thats at todays exchange rate $147.74 WOW !

David
 
Jeremey Weeks
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That's less than 9 pounds for the rest of us. That's an incredible price!
 
John Polk
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Translated into 'Yankee', that's about $17 per pound.

 
David Livingston
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Yup 16$ a Pound

David
 
Jeremey Weeks
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I know this thread is winding down. Here are the prices from a farm in Illinois for last year...

Chism Heritage Farm

Broiler Harvest Dates*

April 20
October 12

Whole chicken $3/pound
Cut up chicken $5/pound
Boneless Skinless Breast $7/pound
Chicken Frames (for Stewing) $2/pound
Wings $4/pound
Leg Quarters $4/pound

Pastured Hogs:
$2/pound live weight plus processing fee.
Let us know and we’ll put you on the waiting list.

Pastured Rabbits*
$10 Available frozen almost any time. I’ll post dates for fresh rabbit soon.

Eggs $4.00/dozen.
We’ll put you on the list. Our eggs are amazing and in demand!
 
Isabelle Gendron
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3$ a pound it is almost the same price as a lot of people here but like I said, my price was higher than this last year since I finished my chicken with organic grains. I noticed that since my birds were a little bit smaller than the big Ross ones they were selling around 17$/chicken. People weren't regarding the weight they were looking at the final price. SO for them, 17$ was a ¨good¨price..

Isabelle
 
Jeremey Weeks
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That's helpful to know, Isabelle. Do you freeze any birds?
 
Isabelle Gendron
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Jeremy, it depends. I try to deliver the birds the day I receive them (I have to make them butcher by a company if I want to sell them). They are not freeze but they could have them freeze for me if I want to with a little supplement for this. The ones that I can't deliver I freeze them.

I am not sure that my previous post was clear...I meant that here people are looking for the final lowest price....Here are my numbers for last years chicken...

I bought 30 Sasso chicks, grew 30, brought 30 to the butcher shop and he gave me back 29 plus 1 only de breast and thighs because the intestin weren't all empty. Time of growing: 12 weeks and 5 days


It cost me 357.94$ (chicks and grains...didn't calculate the rip)
Total weight: 74.837Kg (165 Lbs)
Cost/ weight: 4.79/kg (2.17/Lbs)
An average wight of 5.17 Lbs/birds
My selling price was 3$/lbs and I was higher than the non organic market......but lower than the organic that aren't always sustainable.....

Of course a lot of breeders told me my cost was high but like I said, I finished them with organic grains at 25$/bag and they had 6 of them. Also, they were grown for over 3 months instead of 2 like they other breed. But they are hardy, no hart attack, no broken legs and no fight (well they free ranged so that helped a lot)...

Hope that helped

isabelle
 
Jeremey Weeks
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Isabelle, that helps a lot. I think you must be a great chicken raiser to get the birds to be that big in that time.
 
Isabelle Gendron
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Jeremy, my meat chcken from last yearwere Sasso...a meat breed from the States. They are more desease resistant, no heart failure and no broken legs but they take longer to grow. I don't think taht I can say that they are ¨big¨since it is a meat breed. The regular Ross take 2 months to reach 8-10 ponds at the least. Two other friends of mine bought Sasso also and one got the same weight as mine et they other one a bit bigger, but theirs were less free ranging.
 
Jeremey Weeks
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I think less than 13 weeks to be 5 lbs is great. I hope I can eventually do that. I think you have a great accomplishment.
 
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