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5 Acres and 3000 Trees to be planted: What would you do?

 
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philip travis,  i have just seen a Darren Doherty video about planting trees and he dipped there roots in watered down molasses, feed variety, to encourage microrhyzal fungi to form on the roots.
    Does vinegar have the same effect? vinegar attracts more fruit flies than the plants already have to deal with but i don't suppose they would effect a tree. agri rose macaskie.
 
rose macaskie
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bird man, in spain there are places that have been so bleed by over grazing or over ploughing that they don't grow anything but  slowly the spainish mediteranean hardy plant 'cistus' takes them over and slowly they recover but slowly is slowly, i have seen a hillside coverd in this plant for twenty years and it still does not have grass on it and it has as much rain as a nearby hill that is green. lack of plant cover  can be due to  bad treatment that has has left the land barren totally lacking in nutirients as well as lack of rains.
   First you get cistus plants on badly damaged hills and then cistus with grass at its feet and then the trees start to grow again.
Overgrazing means there are no plants left to produce detritus, plant litter, that will rot and produce nitrogen and with no plants the animals don't spend much time on the land  so no manure either. Also without plant cover the wind carries off the very soil, so in the end you just have rock and things will grow out of rock if theres manure in it, but if there is not it takes a very long time for things to  grow again. Later i will post a photo of trees growing out of a rock face.
    Dry places can salt up a lot and then things wont grow except somethings like salicornia.
     There are always plants that are even more drought heat hardy to grow in dry places  at least untill you get to real sand dune type places.
      If there are not enough nutrients in a place the trees will die in the end however drought tolerant they are.

       If its really dry you would need to follow all of the permaculture advice, everybit of it,  trees for shade, trees of the legume or fabiaceae family for nitrogen and mulch to stop evaporation from the soil and to keep the sun off the ground and to build soils that will hold and retain more water, a micro drip and water harvesting systems like roofs with a tank to collect water and floors that drain into a tank to collect the rain and walls to hold up run off from any rain you get that usually flows down hill. 
    On a steep slope you might want walls to stop the detritus from the plants getting carried down hill.
   There are two types of humus and both make the soil much more water retentive. The one we know off half broken down organ¡c material, and  the one that for some is the official humus, scientific humus. This is the end result of the breaking down of organic matter, it is a dust so fine it acts like a gelatine that is black and very stable and if you have it in your soil the plants find it easier to take up nutrients. as scientific humus works like gelatine it is very usefull in the ground if you have a dry season because it takes up so much wawater if it rains.
     You can buy it, in the Canary island i saw big tins of it beside a banana plantation that was on fairly new volcanic soil. I have not found it myself except in small bottles and very expensive bottles for potted plants in liquid form.
     If you live in a place that has  So you want lots of humus if its dry. rose macaskie.
 
Posts: 8
Location: South Central Virginia
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I would set aside areas away from my home to do this. I would plant trees I could coppice and trees that would draw wildlife in. Depending on topography I might use this program as wind break or fire break. Little or no maintenance for long term crop at a low cost sounds good to me.
I am looking to using a program similar to this myself. I have a 25' wide creek at the back end of property and the US Dept of Forestry will pay me to terrace and plant trees. This is mainly to improve water quality for the rivers, why they pay me. Of course, they wouldn't have to pay me, cause it is good for me too.
 
rose macaskie
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wycher, even if terraces are good for you too maybe the government  need to pay you or people because there are people who can't afford to improve things even if it is good for them or who aren't good enough at getting loanes so the best thing, if its for everyones good, is for the government to pay for it.
   i know that without money i have to do things slowly, let the wild plants build up the soil and with money i can buy and put down mulch and micro drip and the whole thing and buy lots of trees all at once put on a good layer of wood chipps fungi spawn and more wood chips to make soil with fungi, so it is easier for people  to be green quicker with money,  Mulch needs lots of nitrogen to break it down . or needs lots of leguminouse plants and hens and such for nitrogen.
      If the governmant wants clean air for their people it does serve their purpose to help farmers, anyway they allow factory farming that makes life impossible for farmers, it reduces the price of meat so, so they owe you all something .  I suppose its like factory farming that uses the farmer as a paid worker it suits the government to have you looking after the trees so its cheaper for them to help you to stay there. agri rose macaskie.
 
gardener
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Location: ZONE 5a Lindsay Ontario Canada
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When I think terracing, I think of rice paddies on hillsides in asia. Is this what you're talking about or am I way off?
 
                          
Posts: 94
Location: Colorado
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I am under the impression there referring to this kind of terraces, (picture is from a NRCS site), this is the more of the normal  under government programs, these appear to be freshly built,

this is some more USDA info, with more types of terraces
http://www.thisland.illinois.edu/60ways/60ways_18.html
terraces7.jpg
[Thumbnail for terraces7.jpg]
 
pollinator
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Location: Oakland, CA
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Travis Philp wrote:
When I think terracing, I think of rice paddies on hillsides in asia. Is this what you're talking about or am I way off?



Rice paddies generally hold standing water. That makes it simple (arduous, but simple...) and necessary to get them perfectly level, with perfect control of drainage.

A strong contingent on this site seems to favor terraces of the sort that Sepp Holzer builds, which aren't quite level, and have some other important differences from rice paddies. The videos also suggest that gardening on them is partly a dodge, allowing him to escape the regulations that local authorities have on paths. But in the most general terms, they are a similar idea to what you are thinking.
 
rose macaskie
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I have just been tryig to find out more about terraces, the rice ones seem to have a small wall on the out sid eof the teerrace an dthey say thery hav eto keep up the stones of the wal an dputting mud on it on the inside of the small stone wall that stops the water falling off the terrace outward. nagri rose macaskie
 
Posts: 22
Location: Dundalk Ontario 4b
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Travis, have you planted the 5 acres with 3000 trees? I am in the zone 4b southwest ontario and have the very similar situation like yours. I am currently in contact with Grand River Conservation Authority to plant trees. Your experience would be my major input before making decision.

I missed your farm tour weeks ago and I hope you are going to have another next year. We can share ideas and resouces.

Thanks,

Steve
 
Travis Philp
gardener
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Location: ZONE 5a Lindsay Ontario Canada
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Hi Steve,

We didn't go ahead with the planting. Too many other things took priority. Good luck with yours.

I know it's short notice but we're having another farm tour this saturday the 29th. Tours start at 10 am and 1 pm.
 
pollinator
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Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
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  Some areas of Ontario were replanted under various programs and turned into pine monocultures.Check out what Sep Holzer says about that.

  Southern Ontario around Pt. Pele and running to the north shore of Lake Ontario is the northernmost remnant of the Carolinan forest zone. Although the list of trees you've given is quite large , I suspect that some are unique to that microclimate.I've never seen some of these trees north of  Guelph. Good choice of microclimates is essential for trees at the limit of their natural range.

  I'd be tempted to do some chainsaw landscaping,just remove what is unwanted and see what comes up. Unless they're offering major tax relief along with the trees this is probably not a good deal. Nut trees on native rootstock would seem a good choice.

    The University of Western Ontario is a leader in development of cold hardy crops and they offer free advice on all things agricultural.

   
 
                                                  
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Years ago when I lived in Iceland, I used to take a summer work crew of teenagers into the mountains behind the village where I lived for reforestation work. We had these 75 centimeter-long long, tubular planter gizmos that worked sort of like a dandelion puller but backwards. We worked in a line about ten feet apart. We pushed the pointy ends of the gizmos into the ground, stepped on a pedal that forced the turf apart about four centimeters, and dropped a little yearling tree from the regional reforestation nursery down the tube. Lift the tube, and the turf came back together around it. Then we'd take four steps (about another ten feet) and do the same thing. If the line got ragged, that was OK, the forest probably benefitted from the raggedness.

Except for fencing the forest area from reindeer and sheep, the trees were left to fend for themselves. This is generally a very successful way to reforest, as patches of woods are now to be found all over Iceland.

I've never seen the tree planting gizmo anywhere else, but would love to have one.

 
Steve Forest
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Location: Dundalk Ontario 4b
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Travis Philp wrote:
We didn't go ahead with the planting. Too many other things took priority. Good luck with yours.


Thanks Travis. I am meeting a forest specialist next week and hopefully it works out.
 
Steve Forest
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Location: Dundalk Ontario 4b
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Dale Hodgins wrote:
    The University of Western Ontario is a leader in development of cold hardy crops and they offer free advice on all things agricultural.


Dale, thanks for the info. I have seen land with pine monoculture nearby and it is bad for the soil and animals(except birds). On my property, there are some tree seedlings coming up but mojority of them are conifers and thrubs. I am trying to add more varieties but just don't know which way is the best for me.
I couldnot find any info about cold hardy crop from uwo. Do you have the link?
Thanks,
Steve
 
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Location: london, england
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sarrathefletcher wrote:
Years ago when I lived in Iceland, I used to take a summer work crew of teenagers into the mountains behind the village where I lived for reforestation work. We had these 75 centimeter-long long, tubular planter gizmos that worked sort of like a dandelion puller but backwards. We worked in a line about ten feet apart. We pushed the pointy ends of the gizmos into the ground, stepped on a pedal that forced the turf apart about four centimeters, and dropped a little yearling tree from the regional reforestation nursery down the tube. Lift the tube, and the turf came back together around it. Then we'd take four steps (about another ten feet) and do the same thing. If the line got ragged, that was OK, the forest probably benefitted from the raggedness.

Except for fencing the forest area from reindeer and sheep, the trees were left to fend for themselves. This is generally a very successful way to reforest, as patches of woods are now to be found all over Iceland.

I've never seen the tree planting gizmo anywhere else, but would love to have one.




is this it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfsyzHP4fFo

the "pottiputki" - http://www.forestrytools.com.au/index.php?id=27
 
Posts: 383
Location: Zone 9 - Coastal Oregon
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Travis Philp wrote:
There is a program in my province that provides trees for 15 cents each. I've just met with a consultant about it today and it sounds like a great thing to be a part of.

I'd like to pick the collective brain of permies.com to see what kind of a plan you would come up with from the information below...

GENERAL PROGRAM INFO

The program requires a minimum of 5 acres and 3000 trees, which means that each tree would be 8 feet apart if spaced evenly, which doesn't have to be the case. The property itself is 100 acres with 70 workable. At 15 cents per tree plus taxes its about $500-$600. I could plant up to 4500 or so trees but money is at a minimum, and also thats getting a bit too dense in terms of planting space for my liking, though it could have advantages.

An agreement must be made that I won't do any cutting of the trees for 15 years. The consultant told me that this is more of a general rule simply meant to keep people from selling 5-10 year old trees as nursery stock or christmas trees on a large scale. He then said that in reality some trees will have to come out for various reasons and at that point, why not sell them or do as you wish with them. So there is some flexibility there but I'm not yet sure how much.

The site preparation and planting is subsidized and my choices of method are furrowing with a tractor, or spraying with vinegar (this took some convincing on my part).

We at the farm here will be doing the vegetation control and could even get paid for it through the subsidy. As long at the methods work and meet approval anything goes really. My impression is that its a requirement that the planting area be relatively free of vegetation which eliminates food forest gardening (stupid, IMO) but I proposed seeding with a ground cover of white clover and this was alright with the consultant. The site I'm thinking of is in zone 4/5 anyways so I think I can deal with that.

The site itself is pretty flat, sandy loam, with a somewhat high groundwater level, though I'm not sure how high as I've only seen the land in the fall and winter.

As far as planting patterns, they are open to ideas about interplanting and staying away from straight rows, as long as it doesn't interfere with vegetation control. So I'm thinking of planting in sun traps or wavy lines at least but am open to suggestion.


Species List: (If you want scientific names I'll dig em up)


SPECIES AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE BUT ALREADY PRESENT IN GREAT NUMBERS ON THE PROPERTY

white Ash
eastern white cedar
poplar
beech
red osier dogwood

The following lists are available as well, and there are few to none of these on the property (There are a handful of mature sugar maple, willow and black cherry which could self seed so maybe I don't need to buy these?)

CONIFERS

white spruce
black spruce
white pine
red pine

DECIDUOUS BUSHES

highbush cranberry
nannyberry
red osier dogwood

DECIDUOUS TREES

green ash
sugar maple
red maple
silver maple
black walnut
basswood
black cherry
black locust
willow



So I open the floor. What would you do in my situation?



I would go to the Permaculture Research Institute Permaculture Forums and ask there as well so I could work with the numerous people who have PDC's and working Permaculture farms.
 
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This tool would be easy to make and work quite well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUzeruQT8xE&feature=related
 
gardener
Posts: 2347
Location: Fraser River Headwaters, Zone3, Lat: 53N, Altitude 2750', Boreal/Temperate Rainforest-transition
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How did this project turn out? It's been a few years!
 
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Have you looked into planting guilds? Some of the plants mentioned in this link are out of your zone but many of them are.

tree guilds for midwest
 
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I see future tree house real estate.
 
Liar, liar, pants on fire! refreshing plug:
Switching from electric heat to a rocket mass heater reduces your carbon footprint as much as parking 7 cars
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