hunting and fishing

T. Pierce wrote:
a fascinating read:

SURVIVAL POACHING by Ragnar Benson

he explains a few reasons poaching is beneficial to nature.  and i tend to agree with some of his reasoning.  after all man made laws are not always right or correct.  this is not saying i poach.  b/c i dont. im not much of a hunter either.  but i do enjoy reading or watching something on hunting.  and Ragnars books really take you outside the proverbial box.

I agree that there are times when poaching can be beneficial to nature.  Fish & Game agencies all over the US especially in the Northeast did not understand the whitetail deer and made the assumption that each Spring the breeding  Does gave birth to one or two offspring.  That is how some areas have become overrun with so many deer because the harvest limits were also set too low to control the herd size. Sometimes a plant or an animal becomes a pest because of over population and culling is necessary. 

I also agree that whatever authorities are responsible for wildlife management in any area are certainly not infallible. For this reason they can and do modify policies and, as in the example above, stage culls when necessary.

By the same token, which of us can say that we are infallible? Maybe someone out there can say so, but for those of us who can't, or at the very least, if we don't have a PhD. in wildlife management or related discipline, would it not be more than arrogant for any of us to say that we are qualified to decide which game laws we should obey and which we should ignore?

Acknowledging that any government has shortcomings, most of us are fortunate enough to live in a society where the individual(s) can, where appropriate affect changes to laws.

IMHO, if we justifiably disagree with any law, then the thing to do is try to effect change.

In my experience, those who argue that they know better than the "experts" and therefore are not bound by laws are generally just yahoos trying to excuse their law breaking.

Spock wrote:
I also agree that whatever authorities are responsible for wildlife management in any area are certainly not infallible. For this reason they can and do modify policies and, as in the example above, stage culls when necessary.

By the same token, which of us can say that we are infallible? Maybe someone out there can say so, but for those of us who can't, or at the very least, if we don't have a PhD. in wildlife management or related discipline, would it not be more than arrogant for any of us to say that we are qualified to decide which game laws we should obey and which we should ignore?

Acknowledging that any government has shortcomings, most of us are fortunate enough to live in a society where the individual(s) can, where appropriate affect changes to laws.

IMHO, if we justifiably disagree with any law, then the thing to do is try to effect change.

In my experience, those who argue that they know better than the "experts" and therefore are not bound by laws are generally just yahoos trying to excuse their law breaking.

"Experts?"  If they are the experts and they are wrong what makes them an expert?  An expert at being wrong is still wrong and PhD stands for Piled higher and Deeper.  Having a "sheepskin" to hang on the wall does not necessarily make an expert very often.  Changing laws is much more difficult than you suggest.  The "experts" in wildlife management discovered that are far too many whitetail "wombs in the woods" in the woods in the late 60's.  Nothing has changed.  Having "culling events" is not sound game management.  Increasing the number of the legal harvest is and I do not have a degree in game management to understand that principle.  Just because someone studies any particular curriculum does not mean anything if what's being taught is bad information. 

“… those who write the rules are those who profit from the status quo. If we want to change that status quo, we might have to work outside of those rules because the legal pathways available to us have been structured precisely to make sure we don’t make any substantial change.” (Portrait by Robert Shetterly – Used with Permission) http://www.americanswhotellthetruth.org

game management is a balance
here in Pa we have a lot of hunters (approx 1 million) and  a lot of deer.they could be found on  state game lands and state parks, state forest,  national forest, farms, suburbs, housing plans, etc

do you manage for max deer and make the hunters happy? this was done and the deer ate everything except the ferns and rhododendrum. a lot of people thought that's the way a forest looked. Pa had some of the highest deer/car accidents in the country. farmers and homeowners
complained about crop and shrub damage.

recently they switched to a 4 point (one side) buck requirement (to increase trophy size and improve buck/doe ratio) and issued scads of doe permits. one could get 5 or more. afer a few years of everyone shooting off the does, the population dropped, and the forests started to regenerate, accidents dropped and crop damage was reduced.
now the hunters, even those who been shooting several does a year, are complaining that there are no deer. it wasn't unusual before to see 100 deer on a hunt . now maybe 5 or 6

so what's the answer
the original deer population was eliminated prior to the Civil War and the deer were only reintroduced around 1900. so regulations are needed

trying to make the the hunters, the farmers, the permies with forest gardens, the homeowners with fancy shrubs,  and the drivers all happy isn't easy

and the battle rages on

duane wrote:
game management is a balance
here in Pa we have a lot of hunters (approx 1 million) and  a lot of deer.they could be found on  state game lands and state parks, state forest,  national forest, farms, suburbs, housing plans, etc

do you manage for max deer and make the hunters happy? this was done and the deer ate everything except the ferns and rhododendrum. a lot of people thought that's the way a forest looked. Pa had some of the highest deer/car accidents in the country. farmers and homeowners
complained about crop and shrub damage.

recently they switched to a 4 point (one side) buck requirement (to increase trophy size and improve buck/doe ratio) and issued scads of doe permits. one could get 5 or more. afer a few years of everyone shooting off the does, the population dropped, and the forests started to regenerate, accidents dropped and crop damage was reduced.
now the hunters, even those who been shooting several does a year, are complaining that there are no deer. it wasn't unusual before to see 100 deer on a hunt . now maybe 5 or 6

so what's the answer
the original deer population was eliminated prior to the Civil War and the deer were only reintroduced around 1900. so regulations are needed

trying to make the the hunters, the farmers, the permies with forest gardens, the homeowners with fancy shrubs,  and the drivers all happy isn't easy

and the battle rages on

I heard some "stories" about the "reduced" deer herds but looking at the numbers projected by New York State, the deer harvest was only slightly lower than what was projected.  Where I grew up there are 2 phenomena that take place.  One is that deer season between NYS and Pa are one week apart.  I know that the deer cross the Delaware when the shooting starts in one state and a week later cross the river in the opposite direction.  My theory about lower harvests is due to hunters that aren't as skilled as when I was younger.  Where I lived there were many hunters that really should have stayed in NYC and not decided to go in the woods. LOL  Down here in Va where they have very small deer I am not too sure exactly what happens because life got in the way of me harvesting more than two deer since 1986.  I just did not get in the woods. 

duane wrote:
"trying to make the the hunters, the farmers, the permies with forest gardens, the homeowners with fancy shrubs,  and the drivers all happy isn't easy"

It is not possible to make everyone 100% happy, unless "everyone" can be educated to understand the justified interests of other (including the deer, which were not in your list).

IMHO, it is ridiculous to make a "forest garden" and then get pissy when wildlife come in for a snack. This is THEIR back yard! You want to live here, learn to live in harmony with them. Everyone is going to have to accept some compromises...

We can have a healthy & sustainable wildlife population, but are going to have some damage to forests, crops and road traffic accidents, or we can eliminate all wildlife and have no more worries about our shrubs, 'ceptin' from insects, and we can always solve that with pesticides!!! (that last part is NOT a suggestion )

deer have two methods of population control. predation or starvation
when the deer were reintroduced into Pa, natural pretators (which were also eliminated from the state), such as wolves, mountain lions, and native americans were not also reintroduced to balance them
Hunting was the chosen method of maintaining the deer population. Doe hunting was frowned upon and the population increased and came out of balance.
I remember in the 60's, people, who were opposed to doe hunting, raising money to air-drop  corn and hay  to starving deer in the northern counties in the winter!!!

for everything to live in harmony and balance, everything must be in harmony and balance
i didn't say i was against wildlife coming to visit. the topic was the need regulate the population to a sustainable level and that different groups have different ideas on what that is.

Of the meat I do consume, a grand majority of it is wild-caught by me, or family. Deer, rabbit, squirrel, doves, quail, fish (sunfish, catfish, bass), turkey, and I buy from a sustainable bison harvest in Montana.

It's pretty wholesome practice as long as you give back to nature. I support conservation programs, and raising fowl in semi-wild terrain for eventual wild release to boost native populations.

If I was lucky enough to have deer grazing in my forest garden, I would be overjoyed at the thought of all that meat in exchange for some measly shrubbery.

duane wrote:
deer have two methods of population control. predation or starvation
when the deer were reintroduced into Pa, natural pretators (which were also eliminated from the state), such as wolves, mountain lions, and native americans were not also reintroduced to balance them
Hunting was the chosen method of maintaining the deer population. Doe hunting was frowned upon and the population increased and came out of balance.
I remember in the 60's, people, who were opposed to doe hunting, raising money to air-drop  corn and hay  to starving deer in the northern counties in the winter!!!

for everything to live in harmony and balance, everything must be in harmony and balance
i didn't say i was against wildlife coming to visit. the topic was the need regulate the population to a sustainable level and that different groups have different ideas on what that is.

Back in the 50's when I was a youngster, the deer hunting in Pennsylvania was excellent.  The deer reintroduction was necessary because in the 1800's there weren't any regulations the wild game harvesting in Pa. went on year round and with almost all species including songbirds.  I do not recall anti-doe hunting movements in either NY or Pa.  I grew up exactly where the Delaware River begins as the border between the two states.  South of the river was "The Pocanos" and to the north was "The Catskills."  The Pa. game reintroduction began in 1900 and was pretty much completed by the 1930's with a few exceptions.  It took much longer for the Elk population to be restored to levels suitable for sustainable hunting.  I also remember the huge herds of starving whitetails on both sides of the river in the 50's after unusually long cold winters when we had extremely heavy snow.  The fish & game departments from both NY and Pa. were buying any extra hay they could from the dairy farms in the region so they could feed the deer.

" I do not recall anti-doe hunting movements in either NY or Pa"

the movement was incopporated into the hunting regulations. a hunting licence entitled you to an "antlered deer" anywhere in the state. there was no limits on how many were sold.
A limited number of doe permits were issued by each county (a lottery drawing) and had to be used in that counry.  A lot of (anti doe hunter) people would apply for doe permits so hunters couldn't get one.

Antlered deer season was two weeks and doe season was 3 days after that. if you got an antlered deer, you couldn't use your doe permit.
If you applied for an archery or primative (muzzleloader) permit, you couldn't get a doe permit
(these seasons allowed you to harvest either bucks or does)
all these things led to an imbalance in the buck/doe ratios

and I said, regulations were needed due to the fact that humans were designated as the primary predators for the population.  problems arose because the deer herd has managed for maximum deer for hunters rather than sustainable numbers for the environment

duane wrote:

" I do not recall anti-doe hunting movements in either NY or Pa"

the movement was incopporated into the hunting regulations. a hunting licence entitled you to an "antlered deer" anywhere in the state. there was no limits on how many were sold.
A limited number of doe permits were issued by each county (a lottery drawing) and had to be used in that counry.  A lot of (anti doe hunter) people would apply for doe permits so hunters couldn't get one.

Antlered deer season was two weeks and doe season was 3 days after that. if you got an antlered deer, you couldn't use your doe permit.
If you applied for an archery or primative (muzzleloader) permit, you couldn't get a doe permit
(these seasons allowed you to harvest either bucks or does)
all these things led to an imbalance in the buck/doe ratios

and I said, regulations were needed due to the fact that humans were designated as the primary predators for the population.  problems arose because the deer herd has managed for maximum deer for hunters rather than sustainable numbers for the environment

"Camp meat" (antlerless) tags are still issued in NYS.  You cannot get one unless you are a landowner.  Those are some of the stupid regulations that were debated in the 60's.  Organizations such as PETA have done more harm to wild animal populations than most other regulations.  Repopulating the predators in Pa. isn't a practical solution unfortunately.  Increasing the antlerless harvest has been the only practical solution for multiple decades.  Too many lobbyists greasing the palms of too many legislators is definitely a problem.  Without natural predators hunting is the only way to control the deer population.  The increased populations will eventually lead to more widespread "deer wasting disease."  I grew up enjoying lots of venison as a protein source.  Where I grew up there have always been lots of deer on both sides of the river (Pa.&NY).  I was just up there visiting and the demographics are changing from a population that made their living "in the woods" to more "city folk" so the harvests are somewhat reduced more from a lack of skill hunting than from reduced population of deer.  There was little else to do except hunt and fish when I was a youngster. 

Getting back to bows for beginners - this thread had me reading up on a few models, and it seems that some compound bows are adjustable-draw (for example, I think I read one was 25 lbs. to 60 lbs.), and are easily adjustable without having someone work on the bow (that may have been from Hoyt's site).

I am thinking about getting one, but agree that now that I've waited this long, I should just keep searching pawn shops for a good deal.

Mambo Dave wrote:
Getting back to bows for beginners - this thread had me reading up on a few models, and it seems that some compound bows are adjustable-draw (for example, I think I read one was 25 lbs. to 60 lbs.), and are easily adjustable without having someone work on the bow (that may have been from Hoyt's site).

I am thinking about getting one, but agree that now that I've waited this long, I should just keep searching pawn shops for a good deal.

A properly set up compound bow with a peep site is very much like shooting a rifle.  The technology has made bow hunting more accessible "to the masses" but for me traditional archery is much more rewarding.  I learned on a long bow and have always been an adequate archer using "instinctive shooting."  I did go through a period of using a compound bow and in fact have one available for a reasonable price for anyone that might be interested.  Reasonable means just that too ($100.00).  It is collecting dust hanging on the wall in my bedroom.  I have several types of long bows from very traditional English style that requires me to shoot "off my knuckle" to my two favorite ones that are true "center shot" bows.  I use a "light" bow of 35lb. draw weight for my "meditation" and a heavier one (50lbs.) for hunting.  The bows are identical except for draw weight so I am always well practiced.  I switch to the heavier bow in September so my muscles are used to the increased tension of the string.  I realize that learning to use a bow takes some effort and a little instruction always helps but I will always recommend using traditional equipment over a compound bow.  They are much quieter and properly set up are as effective as any compound.  It is true that some companies offer models with adjustable draw weights which would make learning easier but learning to shoot instinctively off the arrow shelf is much more satisfying for me.  It is also important to remember that bow companies advertise arrow speed as a marketing tool and unless you understand that the parameters used to measure arrow speed actually renders it a useless gauge of a bow's capability. 

I have been "slinging arrows" at targets and game for over 50 years and I am here to tell you that spending a day or two hiking in the woods with your bow and a quiver full of arrows shooting old stumps and downed partially decayed trees is great exercise that not only will improve your archery skills but it is a whole bunch of fun too.  Be sure to take older arrows and not your hunting shafts.   Peace.
PS
Learn to build your own arrows.  It is easy and saves hundreds of $$$$.

2 things you'll need. 

1. Go with a traditional bow, or get a "modern" recurve bow.  I went with a #50 horsebow.  That's all the snap you need for taking game.  You can easily use that same bow w/ a blunt tip to take grouse/etc. 

2.  Very important... "Stalking, and Still hunting" by G. Fred Asbell.  This guy knows all there is to know about stalking and getting close for a respectful kill shot.  Your bow shots should be within 10yds. 

Also.. learn to fly fish... the most productive tool when properly learned.

I deleted a bunch of posts.

I want you all to pay attention to a link that says "report to moderator".  If you see something outside of my comfort zone, click on that.  Do NOT create more shit for me to delete.  If I keep telling you this and you keep creating more stuff to delete, I'm gonna have to ban you just to make less work for myself. 

I want the folks that are now missing posts to go and read (or re-read) every last post of the be nice thread.

I have a lot I'm trying to get done every day.  I could really use some help getting my stuff done, rather than more work. 

I've been hunting, or as I like to call it "Taking my gun for a walk in the woods", a few times now. The most I've gotten are a few squirrel. One of these days I'll take it more seriously and go after some bigger game.

Also just started getting into fishing this year. I love the product and will probably start smoking my own fish soon.

TheLight wrote:
I've been hunting, or as I like to call it "Taking my gun for a walk in the woods", a few times now. The most I've gotten are a few squirrel. One of these days I'll take it more seriously and go after some bigger game.

Also just started getting into fishing this year. I love the product and will probably start smoking my own fish soon.

I have often thought of the hunting experience is really all about being "in the woods" whether or not I see any game.  The experience is truly the part I like best.  If I were in a situation where finding game meant the difference between eating or starving then I suppose that would make it a much different experience.  I am always "armed" when I am in the woods with at least a 22 cal. rifle.  Not really to shoot anything but I believe in being prepared.

A couple of days ago while helping a friend clean up his backyard while trying my best to convince him to alter his approach to gardening I found an eastern red cedar (juniper) that had died.  I harvested it and could not find why it had given up the ghost but it will provide me with enough material to make 4 long bows.  

Dave...If you could have one book that covers bow making, and arrow making which would it be?  And what is the most minimum set of tools one could use to make a functioning hunting bow?

I always carry a small .22 with me as well when I'm camping. 

It's good to have this forum.  I personally believe hunting and fishing can provide a huge portion of food on top of agricultural practices.

splitrippin wrote:
Dave...If you could have one book that covers bow making, and arrow making which would it be?  And what is the most minimum set of tools one could use to make a functioning hunting bow?

I always carry a small .22 with me as well when I'm camping. 

It's good to have this forum.  I personally believe hunting and fishing can provide a huge portion of food on top of agricultural practices.

Great question.  I have an OK collection of bow building books but if I had to choose just one it would be "Traditional Bowyer, More Unnecessary Fun" by Jack Harrison.  The Bowyers Bible is better but is also a 4 volume set for around a hundred bucks.  Jack Harrison's book covers everything you would need to build a bow and arrows too.  Some of my building techniques are unusual compared with the well known bowyers but they work for me.  I started out making my own bows from saplings when I was a kid and just kept "working" on my techniques.

Tool choices is a difficult topic.  I sometimes build a bow without the use of any power tools and sometimes I cannot build one without using a belt sander for instance.  When I actually buy wood it is most often Brazillian Walnut, working that by hand would take me the rest of my life to make one bow.  

Here is a list of what I consider essential for building an accurate powerful hunting bow:

Wood Vise (that will secure odd shaped pieces of wood. I use a Lumber Horse. Plans for building one can be found here: http://www.living-wood.co.uk/lumber_horse.html)

Draw Knife (I have several different sizes plus also have found a Spoke Shave handy for shaping the belly of the bow)

Wood rasps  I use a Farrier's Rasp most often.  You can find a good one at 3riversarchery.com for a fair price.  Also a "4 in Hand" Rasp is very useful for shaping.  I use a round chainsaw file for setting the nocks in the bow tips.

Tillering Stick and String.  You can make a tillering stick yourself.  I made mine out of a piece of Osage Orange that wasn't "right" for bow making use.

Wood Chisels are sometimes useful but not essential.
(sharpening stones and jigs)
 
If you wanted to stop here it would be possible to build a useful bow but.......

A powerful "self-bow" can be very dangerous.  I have had them break at full draw and trust me when I tell you that I am very lucky to only having to recover from some serious bruising and did not lose an eye.  
For that reason all of my bows are "backed" with Heat Tempered Bamboo.  
(For anyone reading this link: the back of the bow is the part that faces away from you when shooting and the other side is called the belly.)  I do the heat tempering myself  Careful use of a propane torch can make a slab of Bamboo as hard as a piece of steel.  So getting back to my list of tools......
I have a gazillion clamps for gluing up my Bow Staves.  The old adage about a wood working never having enough clamps is true.  I also built a heat-box for curing the adhesives I use for laminating the wood.  The use ordinary incandescent light bulbs as a heat source.  It takes a while to preheat the box to 175 degrees F and then 12 hours to set the glue but I have not had a broken finished bow (that was not abused) since I began laminating my bows.

You can find lots of specific bow building tools at www.3riversarchery.com and at
www.rudderbows.com
I use both of them for tools and supplies including my bow wood when I am not harvesting a tree.

As an aside, Brazilian Walnut which is called Ipe is one the best bow making woods I have found but it is very difficult to work because it is so hard.  It dulls tools like trying to slice a piece of stone with a steak knife.  I found a source for the wood at a reasonable price if you are willing to endure the headaches associated with preparing a stave.  I do not recommend using it until you have some experience.

I most often use Bamboo for making arrows.  Arrow making varieties of Bamboo can be grown in your yard.  

I hope this "rambling" has been helpful.  Building bows and arrows is definitely challenging but is also extremely rewarding.

PS: I use the following power tools too:
All of them are small bench top type tools because I have limited space:
Drill Press
Belt/Disc Sander
Table Saw
Band Saw
and some hand held power tools like a drill motor and sanders.
If you plan to laminate buy more clamps and then save up and buy more clamps.

Peace.

Dave,  Good info there.. big time.. I will have to go through a few times, and digest it some more.

Rudder Bows is a great resource.  I got my arrows through them from Glacier Archery.  I'll have to look into growing bamboo up at my cabin.  That would be a great resource.  Any suggestions on a type to look at for northern midwest climates?

This will be my 1st year hunting with a traditional bow(any bow for that matter)  I plan on bringing my bow with to hunt for grouse this year.  My instinctive shooting is getting better. 

Thinking about picking up a 35-40lb paddle bow for hunting small game, and practice shooting from Rudders.  Then save the 50lb horse bow for deer.

Thanks for the info!

splitrippin wrote:
Dave,  Good info there.. big time.. I will have to go through a few times, and digest it some more.

Rudder Bows is a great resource.  I got my arrows through them from Glacier Archery.  I'll have to look into growing bamboo up at my cabin.  That would be a great resource.  Any suggestions on a type to look at for northern midwest climates?

This will be my 1st year hunting with a traditional bow(any bow for that matter)  I plan on bringing my bow with to hunt for grouse this year.  My instinctive shooting is getting better. 

Thinking about picking up a 35-40lb paddle bow for hunting small game, and practice shooting from Rudders.  Then save the 50lb horse bow for deer.

Thanks for the info!

Are you zone 5?  Dwarf Bissetti will grow as far north as zone 4.  I use Sasa Palmetta but only because I have a source.  There is a guy that lives down the street that allows me to dig out as much as I want because it is taking over his property.  All I had to say was I would do it for free and he said have at it.  
If you are growing it for arrows you need to harvest it when it is young so drying it out will be an experimental adventure.  Sometimes it splits when it it is harvested too soon.  Harvesting and drying is an experimental project that will be a trial and error process that I can't be of much help.  I will say that in my opinion Bamboo is an extremely useful gift from the earth.  It grows fast and in copious amounts and when dry makes a very hot fire. 

Re: Using Bamboo for bow backing & arrows.

It is necessary to heat temper the bamboo for both bows and arrows.  I use my propane torch head on my oxy-acetylene welding rig without the oxygen of course.  A 20 lb. bottle of propane lasts for a very long time.  I do use it for heating the bamboo to bend it in circles for other projects too.

Dave, I'm up in zone 3a/b by Ely, MN.  I don't know if bamboo will grow that far north.

splitrippin wrote:
Dave, I'm up in zone 3a/b by Ely, MN.  I don't know if bamboo will grow that far north.

there are a couple of varieties that will grow in zone 4.  That's about the coldest it will tolerate.  Zone 3 is way too cold for me.  I am moving back to zone 5 though. 

BarefootJoe wrote:
You could always take up the skill of slinging. It is lightweight, portable, and infinite amount of ammo. Deadly accurate after a while and extremely powerful. You could make it out of scraps of leather also.

Imho, sling is not a good option for hunting, it takes a lot of time and practice to get some accuracy and the whirling prior to launch alltough you only use half  a circle is enough to alarm most of the animals you try to hunt... may be you can take some animals shooting over a band of them.  Sling is the right tool for guide and guard sheep/goats and alternatively as a war weapon used by a mass of slingers due to its power and fast rate of shooting.
I began to sling at age 10 and now i am 55. i have tried to hunt some times with my sling, but haven't got any  kill so far.
slingshot in the other hand is more accurate and though is'nt easy, you can take some little birds rats and squirrel.
When i was younger i hunted a lot with airguns, mostly birds from robin to a pigeon size, also lot of water rats, snakes and frogs and ate them all.
Here in Spain laws are very restrictive about firearms, weapons and hunting. i.e. you can't legaly use airguns or .22 for hunting, and even a slingshot with wrist support is an ilegal weapon.

cimarrron wrote:
Imho, sling is not a good option for hunting, it takes a lot of time and practice to get some accuracy and the whirling prior to launch alltough you only use half  a circle is enough to alarm most of the animals you try to hunt... may be you can take some animals shooting over a band of them.  Sling is the right tool for guide and guard sheep/goats and alternatively as a war weapon used by a mass of slingers due to its power and fast rate of shooting.
I began to sling at age 10 and now i am 55. i have tried to hunt some times with my sling, but haven't got any  kill so far.
slingshot in the other hand is more accurate and though is'nt easy, you can take some little birds rats and squirrel.
When i was younger i hunted a lot with airguns, mostly birds from robin to a pigeon size, also lot of water rats, snakes and frogs and ate them all.
Here in Spain laws are very restrictive about firearms, weapons and hunting. i.e. you can't legaly use airguns or .22 for hunting, and even a slingshot with wrist support is an ilegal weapon.

I too have "fiddled around" with a sling.  I found it kind of fun and could even come close to where I was aiming relatively speaking, but agree that as a hunting weapon it isn't a useful choice.  Firearms restrictions in most other countries has been a factor in keeping me in the US. 
I am happy about taking up archery as a youngster and sticking with over the last 55 years or so.  My eyesight and strength aren't what they were even 10 years ago but I can still cast arrows with deadly almost silent accuracy.
With the proper knowledge a capable bow and a set of arrows can be homemade with careful effort.  I started out cutting down a sapling when I was really young and just kept at it over the years.  My skills at bow building steadily improved to the point that finding some nice wood and transforming it into a bow has become much easier.  It is always a challenge because of the "unknown" properties of a particular piece of wood but I don't wind up using them for firewood very often.
I find it sad that such restrictive weapons laws make even basic survival difficult.

Harvest time is right around the corner. I wait for a couple good frosts.  I don't bother with the state imposed seasons.  It is my land so how you be a poacher on your own land?  I used to bow hunt, and trophy hunt when I was a young man. Now I hunt to feed my family. I have found a rifle to be the most efficient for a quick, clean kill. Plus, I can reach way farther than a bow, which increases my odds.  I usually take three deer and that holds us over until the next season.  Most of it gets ground into burger since I am not much of a butcher and only know how to save the tenderloin, backstrap and the occasional roast. I'm thinking about volunteering some time at a local wild game butcher shop so I can learn more.

MoodyVaden wrote:
Harvest time is right around the corner. I wait for a couple good frosts.  I don't bother with the state imposed seasons.  It is my land so how you be a poacher on your own land?  I used to bow hunt, and trophy hunt when I was a young man. Now I hunt to feed my family. I have found a rifle to be the most efficient for a quick, clean kill. Plus, I can reach way farther than a bow, which increases my odds.  I usually take three deer and that holds us over until the next season.  Most of it gets ground into burger since I am not much of a butcher and only know how to save the tenderloin, backstrap and the occasional roast. I'm thinking about volunteering some time at a local wild game butcher shop so I can learn more.

I used to do exactly the same thing as far as when the "harvest season" begins.  In my opinion the arbitrary hunting seasons are based on some strange ethical reasons for not taking very young deer.  I prefer smaller animals because they just taste better.  Usually by the end of August the fawns have lost their spots and all of them have been eating grasses so their meat is particularly sweet.  I have never been a trophy hunter.  Even when I went moose hunting I passed up on a huge animal in favor of one that dressed out around 650lbs.  It has always been about putting meat on the table for me.  I bow hunt because I have been an archer for over 50 years and enjoy the challenge of stalking my quarry but have taken dozens of deer with a rifle.  My firearm choice would suggest that if a deer is over 100 yards away it isn't a target even though I am easily capable of delivering a well placed shot at that distance.  I am used to hunting in brushy terrain and most often am presented with opportunities at much shorter ranges.  I used to enjoy knocking down those little steel plates at ridiculously long ranges but never considered trekking that far to collect game.  Lately I have been considering that "newish" Savage model 220 - 20 gauge fully rifled bolt action using sabot slugs as my deer rifle but have a lifelong fondness for my trusty Marlin 30-30.  My long range rifle is a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser.  That is a sweet shooter but not for hunting.
Butchering is not that difficult if you have a good teacher to show you what to do the first time.  I will never enjoy removing all of that "silver skin" but after a while it becomes much like cutting up a very large chicken.
Peace.

Dave Bennett wrote:
I used to do exactly the same thing as far as when the "harvest season" begins.  In my opinion the arbitrary hunting seasons are based on some strange ethical reasons for not taking very young deer.  I prefer smaller animals because they just taste better.  Usually by the end of August the fawns have lost their spots and all of them have been eating grasses so their meat is particularly sweet.  I have never been a trophy hunter.  Even when I went moose hunting I passed up on a huge animal in favor of one that dressed out around 650lbs.  It has always been about putting meat on the table for me.  I bow hunt because I have been an archer for over 50 years and enjoy the challenge of stalking my quarry but have taken dozens of deer with a rifle.  My firearm choice would suggest that if a deer is over 100 yards away it isn't a target even though I am easily capable of delivering a well placed shot at that distance.  I am used to hunting in brushy terrain and most often am presented with opportunities at much shorter ranges.  I used to enjoy knocking down those little steel plates at ridiculously long ranges but never considered trekking that far to collect game.  Lately I have been considering that "newish" Savage model 220 - 20 gauge fully rifled bolt action using sabot slugs as my deer rifle but have a lifelong fondness for my trusty Marlin 30-30.  My long range rifle is a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser.  That is a sweet shooter but not for hunting.
Butchering is not that difficult if you have a good teacher to show you what to do the first time.  I will never enjoy removing all of that "silver skin" but after a while it becomes much like cutting up a very large chicken.
Peace.

Thanks Dave.  A one or two year old doe certainly tastes better than an old stinky buck.  I usually opt for something less than 100 lbs over a big rack. I love my 3030 Marlin, as well, and also have been known to use my 20 gauge 1100.  That shoots pretty sweet too.

There are no state regulations on age or size of deer taken that I am aware of.  Our only regulation is the amount of deer taken.  In my part of Maryland, between the three seasons, rifle, bow, and muzzleloader, you are allowed a total of 6 antlered, and 30 antlerless. The only stipulation is you have to take 2 antlerless before you take your second antlered.  Seems ridiculously high until you consider that these younger generations hunt deer on the sofa with a joystick.

I deleted a post here.  It was a big post.  I only got about 5% of the way into it before I found too many things outside of my comfort zone. 

There was a reference to how stuff on permies should have scientific reference.  I think the roots of all science are rooted in anecdotal evidence.  And when we all have full appreciation of science, there should be 500 pounds of anecdotal evidence for every pound of study.  But before the study can start we need to hear about the anecdotal evidence.

Therefore, this site encourages anecdotal reporting.  I think this falls into the space of how I am not okay with people expressing "the truth" - I insist that everybody express "their position".  Demanding scientific support is insisting on "the truth".

And there was stuff that was trying really hard to not be accusatory - so on the one hand I appreciate trying, on the other hand, it still comes off accusatory.  This falls into the space of how I want to see folks have conversation while never suggesting that anyone on permies.com is less than perfect. 

Threads to look at:

be nice
the many flavors of science
citation needed

MoodyVaden wrote:
Thanks Dave.  A one or two year old doe certainly tastes better than an old stinky buck.  I usually opt for something less than 100 lbs over a big rack. I love my 3030 Marlin, as well, and also have been known to use my 20 gauge 1100.  That shoots pretty sweet too.

There are no state regulations on age or size of deer taken that I am aware of.  Our only regulation is the amount of deer taken.  In my part of Maryland, between the three seasons, rifle, bow, and muzzleloader, you are allowed a total of 6 antlered, and 30 antlerless. The only stipulation is you have to take 2 antlerless before you take your second antlered.  Seems ridiculously high until you consider that these younger generations hunt deer on the sofa with a joystick.

I remember back in the 80's the limit here in Va. was 2 one antlered/one doe but you could buy extra tags up to 12 animals total.  I think that has changed but I seem to recall that only 2 had to be antlered.
I have only harvested a deer here in Va. a few times.  Most of my deer hunting was in upstate NY where the deer are noticeably bigger.  There are some really nice areas out in the western part of Maryland.  I drive through there often on my way back "home" to visit my sisters.  It is good to see that some states are addressing the serious whitetail over population problem.  It would be interesting to see that practice adopted in many other states where the bag limits have no correlation to the breeding cycle of whitetails.  Far too many "city folk" have no clue as to the problems associated with deer over population involving the health of the animals.  The deer populations in suburbs and even within cities has become problematic in some areas of the country.  I suppose that suggesting "invasion" of their habitat is the reason but the ethics of that debate are for somebody else.  I just love my venison.  
I have to agree with you on the issue of "hunting by video" with today's younger population.  Technology has made life better in many respects but not so in many ways too.  My son played video games quite a lot when he was a youngster but I encouraged outdoor activities as much as possible.  Gave him firearm safety training when he was very young and we spent as much time "in the woods" as my work schedule would allow.  He had his own 22 rifle long before he was allowed to have a BB gun.  Respect for weapons was well ingrained in his psyche before that happened because BB guns do much damage to children due to the attitude that they are not "real" weapons.  My son lives in NYC so he no longer hunts but it is satisfying knowing that he can feel comfortable "in the woods." Peace.

I just want to know if someone have heard or have any knowledge about wilderness management? Because, I had a professional course on this and it just come to my sense that is exactly what permaculture is all about. If i'm wrong can someone tell me why? Because i'm new to this forum and permaculture stuff and find it very interesting.

Dave, What about crossbows? I am seeing some in a local store on sale but do not know much about them. There is one that is 130 lbs one is 150 lbs. Is that enough for deer ? The "bolts" do not have a sharp blade like arrows. Do they make different points for cross bows?

Dave Bennett wrote:Sometimes a plant or an animal becomes a pest because of over population and culling is necessary. 

That is why I do not consider humans as a pest!
Well, no more than any other animal or plant.
And I consider our population number as a problem.

We should be more careful for just one reason: we cannot decide to regulate our population with some well planned hunting!!!
Oh yes, some do, this is called war... Very efficient for population control isn't it?
(sorry for joking about this...)

I just mean that hunting and fishing are controls that all animals do among themselves, and we participate in it.
BUT we are only on one side of the regulation, so we should be more auto-regulating on the birth side.

Even if we could live peacefully, we could leave more food and room to other animals than us....
Thus we could hunt and fish more freely and in a sustainable way. And then we would not need CAFO.

Martin Pelletier wrote:I just want to know if someone have heard or have any knowledge about wilderness management? Because, I had a professional course on this and it just come to my sense that is exactly what permaculture is all about. If i'm wrong can someone tell me why? Because i'm new to this forum and permaculture stuff and find it very interesting.

Yes I agree with you.
If you have not yet read "tending the wild" by Kat Anderson, you will love it!

Hunting and fishing was a lovely way of life.
The proof: it is considered as a great hobby now....
What, hobby?

You go and work because you no more want to live on hunting and fishing, and then, when you have time left, you go fishing and hunting...

Xisca Nicolas wrote:
I just mean that hunting and fishing are controls that all animals do among themselves, and we participate in it.
BUT we are only on one side of the regulation, so we should be more auto-regulating on the birth side.

I don't disagree on birth control but although we are top predator on the planet, there are quite a few very small predators (virus & bacteria) hunting us down. And generally, like all other plants and animals, the weak and elderly succumb first.