Ketogenic Diet

Tina Paxton wrote:I have a confession to make. I gave up the experiment. Other than reducing my appetite, it wasn't doing anything for me. I was gaining, not losing weight. I was moody. So, I decided to go with what Mark Sisson calls the "sweet spot" for weightloss -- 50-100g of carbs a day. Actually, I've kinda given up on losing weight. For me, now, the "sweet spot" is where my face doesn't look like I have the plague (rosacea and psoriasis) and I otherwise feel well and energetic.

You can always try it again if you feel like it! My overall inflammation is down (esp my gums) but the monthly cycle has a pretty big impact on my rosacea (someone asked me how I got sunburned in February in Vermont...). I'm hoping it's not dairy related but that experiment may be coming up.

The reduced appetite has been a real boon so I will keto on.

I think most days I eat like I'm on the Ketogenic diet but that is just what I like. I have tried bulletproof coffee and liked it, bulletproof tea just makes me nauseous and feel hungry?!?! I prefer a regular cup of tea with raw milk cream and a couple of eggs fried in two table spoons of butter and coconut oil. Either that or a chunk of organ meat.
I don't agree with most of you who say the key of the ketogenic diet is to loose weight. I'm trying to gain weight and have put on fifteen pounds in the past year mostly eating ketogenic paleo. The only way I can get in enough calories to gain weight is to eat extra fat at the end of the day otherwise my calories are always too low. When just eating paleo I can't put on weight. I still eat between 80-120 grams of protein a day and don't bother counting carbs as they are all from veggies and milk.

Victoria Gardner wrote:I don't agree with most of you who say the key of the ketogenic diet is to loose weight. I'm trying to gain weight and have put on fifteen pounds in the past year mostly eating ketogenic paleo. The only way I can get in enough calories to gain weight is to eat extra fat at the end of the day otherwise my calories are always too low. When just eating paleo I can't put on weight. I still eat between 80-120 grams of protein a day and don't bother counting carbs as they are all from veggies and milk.

I have heard that some people gain weight intentionally or otherwise on a ketogenic diet. It is trying to mimic actual starvation though, that's the science behind it & why it works. I'm not clear what it is you disagree with but it is becoming clearer that everyone is different and just because it does or doesn't work for one person isn't saying much.

Lots of n=1 experiments going on.

Cj Verde wrote:it is becoming clearer that everyone is different and just because it does or doesn't work for one person isn't saying much.

Lots of n=1 experiments going on.

Agree 100%. Which is why there are so many different diets out there and they each work for a segment of people -- some are more healthy overall than others but when the question of weightloss is the main issue, each person's biochemistry is different. It seems that men in general do much better on keto than women (hormonal differences at play more likely) but for women it works for some and not for others.

N=1 experiments will never make the Cochrane gold standard of quality but it is, I believe, the only way we can really find what works for "ME".

After 6 months of keto I've lost 21 lbs. Most of the loss has been in the last 2 months, I think due to extra outdoor activity and 3 months ago I added IF. I work 3x a week and those days I eat a large breakfast of about 1000 calories (I'm stuffed) and then fast the rest of the day. Pretty easy because I'm not hungry and my blood sugar isn't spiking.

I'd like to loose another 15 to get back to my pre-pregnancy weight (my oldest will be 20 this year!)

I'm able to stay in ketosis even with eating a cup of frozen berries with HWC, which slows the carb absorption.

The more I learn about this subject, the more it puzzles me there's far from a consensus on what a "good" diet is. On the one hand there's the China Study and on the other hand there's keto/paleo/Weston A Price. I'm studying a bit here and there, but I haven't been convinced of much. But I still have to eat. I can only go by a hunch at this point. To me it seems far from innocent to experiment with quite radical diets, but isn't a "normal" diet the real radical diet here? I don't know, apart from the sugars, chemicals and industrial fats.
I'm intrigued by keto/paleo/Weston A Price. I'm reluctant to give keto a try because I've had a kidney stone before and it can heavily increase the chance of another one. Also, I can't imagine our ancestors passing any food source or "dieting". Our current abundance is unprecedented. I don't want to loose weight, on the contrary, I just want to eat healthy food. What is that and why? Easy question, difficult to find a definite answer.

Isn't it amazing that here we sit talking about a diet that can get the unformed
outer covering of nervous to grow stopping seizures while a current presidential candidate's
major life accomplishment is performing lobotomies instead for the same problem.

Here is a link detailing his role in the anti diet treament:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemispherectomy

It must be about 1.5 years ago my friend told me he switched his diet to about 80% fat. I was intrigued and the logic behind the inverse affects on blood sugar of a "conventional" diet seemed not very far fetched. My friend tends to substitute one science based absolute solution for another every couple of years, so I thought it was that time again. He's not stupid and does his research and because I was so intrigued by this radically different diet I did some googling. It ended quite soon because I stumbled upon kidney stones as side effects. Since I've had one before, I don't want to do anything that even remotely increases the risk for another one.
And here I find myself, coming back to keto/paleo. I'm almost at the point to give it a go, since I have a lot to gain energy- and health-wise. But I'm crapping my pants for kidney stones, the more since I'm planning to go off grid in the near future. It makes sense to think that restricting fluid to 80% of estimated daily needs in the traditional ketogenic diet is the culprit. I lack the expertise to properly assess this. Anybody there who can point me in the right direction or refer me?

From what I remember, kidney stones are more to do with 'high protein' rather than 'low carb' or 'ketogenic'. I think the ketogenic diet generally used to control epilepsy is rather high protein. It might be worth doing a bit of research on it and tweaking your version of the diet to allow for it as much as possible.

Keto Clarity has a section on "Low Carb Myths" one of which is about kidney stones. You could still get a kidney stone while doing keto but remember, you got one when you weren't doing keto!

Here's that info:

The common misinformation that ketosis and low-carb diets cause kidney damage and kidney stones has not been seen in clinical practice, nor has it been demonstrated in the numerous studies done over the last fifteen years or so. Instead, the results we’ve seen have all been positive. – Jackie Eberstein

This is another common criticism of very low-carb diets that has no basis in reality. The claim is that people who consume a ketogenic diet are 500 times more likely to develop kidney stones composed of uric acid and 50 times more likely to develop the more common calcium oxalate kidney stones. What is their proposed solution? Eat more carbohydrates like white rice and potatoes. If a person is uncomfortably symptomatic in some way, then they need to dig deep with a qualified, knowledgeable, and capable professional to determine the underlying problem. Here’s one hint: it has nothing to do with a “starch deficiency.” Dig deeper! One cannot consume so-called safe starches like white rice and potatoes and expect to maintain a healthy ketogenic state. – Nora Gedgaudas

Just like the fears about dry eyes and mouth discussed earlier, this could be an example of blaming a ketogenic diet when someone is predisposed to having kidney stones anyway. To help prevent kidney stones, make sure you are properly hydrated, supplement your diet with magnesium and potassium citrate, eliminate soda from your diet (it’s full of phosphates that contribute to stone formation), and keep an eye on the pH balance of your urine (you can test it with strips available in any health store and tinker with your diet to get it more alkaline than acidic). One thing to keep in mind is that kidney stone formation is more common on a high-carb diet, not a low-carb one, as shared in a British Journal of Urology study published in December 1978. It’s also important to note that many who embark on a low-carb, high-fat, ketogenic diet tend to be those who are dealing with obesity, type 2 diabetes, and metabolic syndrome, all of which are contributing factors in the development of kidney stones. And if your low-carb diet contains higher levels of protein than you need, that, too, can raise your uric acid excretion, which leads to kidney stones (yet another reason to moderate your protein intake and increase the amount of fat you consume). While blood levels of uric acid do indeed increase when you first go ketogenic, those levels normalize within four to eight weeks.

Westman MD, Eric; Moore, Jimmy (2014-08-06). Keto Clarity: Your Definitive Guide to the Benefits of a Low-Carb, High-Fat Diet (p. 197). Victory Belt Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Thanks Burra Maluca and Cj Verde. I'll follow your leads. I've been tested the crap out of after I had the kidney stone. The doctor's conclusion was he hadn't a clue why I got it.

Actually ketogenic diet is same like paleo, even i was knowing ketogenic and paleo are same diet type and lists.. But keto is a little different type for nutrition. I found an article about "which diet better for you" paleo or keto: http://ketogenicdietmenuplan.com/ketogenic-vs-paleo/

There is a fair amount of overlap. Keto is much lower in carbs than Paleo. If your goal is weight loss, you can start with paleo and if that doesn't work switch to keto.

Keto is better for other medical conditions tho, like epilepsy, cancer, MS, and so on.

Here's an update.

So after 6 months my cholesterol rose but I stuck to the plan and everything looks really good. The woman who ran my biometrics was shocked at how good they were.

These numbers are after 6 months and 18 months on keto!
Total 266 (last year 312)
HDL >100 (last year 63)
LDL na (couldn't calculate due to high HDL) last year was 230
Trigs 54 (last year 95)
BP 110/74
BMI 22.3
79 FBG (last year was 93).

And I'm 30 lbs lighter (yeah, a slow loser)

Cj Sloane wrote:
I don't think half of protein is glucose but all protein over 30% converts to glucose. I recommend tracking with a program like myFitnessPal to see what your percentages are. For someone new to a ketogenic diet it's supposed to be around 5-10% carbs, 15-20% protein, and 70-80% fats.

Woah. That is a lot of fat. How on earth do y'all get that much in?
I have the mental image of using a shotglass of olive oil to wash down a mostly-fat meat cut slathered in egg yolks. *Shudder*

I haven't read the whole thread - will get back to it later when I don't have to cook for kids and drive them to art class 😂

I think I am currently in ketosis, but not entirely sure - will buy keto sticks at the pharmacy later today.

I have been following "The Complete Guide To Fasting" by Jimmy More and Dr. Jason Fung for almost 2 weeks and I have lost 6kg and 4 cm around my waist.

Before that I was in the Paleo AIP. Many thought leaders in the AIP community want against ketosis - even low carb. But my main reason for going AIP was eczema and seasonal allergies and not MS or any other seriously dangerous autoimmune disorder. I could feel both allergies and eczema flare every time I ate a permitted carb on the AIP. So I became more and more low carb - but I compensated for the lack of carbs by eating more protein and not more fat (I had vegans friends visiting and they were constantly commenting on the amount of fat we used in our family... so was restraining myself). When I went to the Dr 2 weeks ago I had gained 3 kg compared to last year when I was keto (the eggs and nuts made my eczema flare which was why I stopped...)... I am already BMI>30 so I really needed to stop gaining weight NOW. My therapist recommended Jimmy Mores fasting talk podcast, and I bought the book and read it in one sitting - have been binging on the podcast ever since. Last week I did 3 24 hours water fasts (incl salt), and this week I have fasted since Sunday (3 days today), water and salt only + a mineral supplement. Last night I added bonebroth and today I have had one bulletproof coffee. I will break fast Friday at noon as we are celebrating midsummer night on the beach with friends Friday night with barbecue (don't want to break fast with a big steak). I feel great - have been able to do yoga every day throughout the fasts. I think it would be a good way to get back into ketosis after a Christmas splash. I intend to continue fasting intermittently and sometimes longer periods, and I will shift my diet more and more towards keto. But since I am still AIP (except for coffee), I do have a hard time getting enough fat. I am very attracted to the Wahls protocol- I do really really think that loads of veggies are vitally important to good health. I also think that we only need a little meat to satisfy our need for the nutrients in meat - esp. if we eat the cuts that are most nutrient dense, like liver and bonebroth, seafood etc. Her idea with paleo plus is that you eat only 1-2 servings of starchy veggies per week (carrots and beets etc), but one cup of berries pr day - and eat 5 tbls of coconut oil pr day to stay in ketosis regardless of this intake of carbs. I don't know if I can eat that many berries... fruit spikes my blood sugar so much that my hart starts racing like mad - it is a little scary (and I am not prediabetic...).

Tina Paxton wrote:I have a confession to make. I gave up the experiment. Other than reducing my appetite, it wasn't doing anything for me. I was gaining, not losing weight. I was moody. So, I decided to go with what Mark Sisson calls the "sweet spot" for weightloss -- 50-100g of carbs a day.  Actually, I've kinda given up on losing weight. For me, now, the "sweet spot" is where my face doesn't look like I have the plague (rosacea and psoriasis) and I otherwise feel well and energetic.  

I stopped keto last year because I didn't see any improvement in my overall health (actually just felt tired and my eczema got way way worse). But now that all my eczema and allergies are under control I have the inclination to try again. I also decided a year ago to accept myself including the weight. But when I discovered that I had gained weight I felt completely motivated to try again - and this time it is working. I have also learned a lot about keto, paleo and my own body in the last year so I am way better at handling symptoms, and because I have been predominantly paleo for a year I don't get any symptoms of keto flu or any the like it.

Bauluo Ye wrote:Thanks Burra Maluca and Cj Verde. I'll follow your leads. I've been tested the crap out of after I had the kidney stone. The doctor's conclusion was he hadn't a clue why I got it.

Jimmy Moore's talked about kidney stones in this: https://itunes.apple.com/es/podcast/1-kidney-stones-gout-and-heart-palpitations-on-keto/id1071990583?i=1000360264877&mt=2 episode of his Keto Talk podcast

Dawn Hoff wrote:

Tina Paxton wrote:I have a confession to make. I gave up the experiment. Other than reducing my appetite, it wasn't doing anything for me. I was gaining, not losing weight. I was moody. So, I decided to go with what Mark Sisson calls the "sweet spot" for weightloss -- 50-100g of carbs a day.  Actually, I've kinda given up on losing weight. For me, now, the "sweet spot" is where my face doesn't look like I have the plague (rosacea and psoriasis) and I otherwise feel well and energetic.  

I stopped keto last year because I didn't see any improvement in my overall health (actually just felt tired and my eczema got way way worse). But now that all my eczema and allergies are under control I have the inclination to try again. I also decided a year ago to accept myself including the weight. But when I discovered that I had gained weight I felt completely motivated to try again - and this time it is working. I have also learned a lot about keto, paleo and my own body in the last year so I am way better at handling symptoms, and because I have been predominantly paleo for a year I don't get any symptoms of keto flu or any the like it.

Look for Grant Genereux blog! He also had eczema, and with keto you need to mind your levels of vitA, and he discovered he had too much and went on a vitA reduction diet that worked for eczema... Also, carotene seems to be inflamatory as much as omega 6. I have just written about it in the zero carb thread.

I have just received my ketone test.... I am not sure, as I eat high protein, and I have just lowered my fats because my liver could not handle it. I eat mostly fish those days. And I have eaten berries. When possible, I think cyclng with seasons is good.

About bullet proof coffee: nobody mentionned adding an egg yolk! But it is very good if you manage to turn your coconut oil into a mayo! Creamy coffee, and no more oil floating on the coffee.... Do not cook it with too hot coffee though.... and heat your coconut oil into liquid form.

Mu liver also protests with coconut oil!

And who knows what is the difference between burning fatty acids and ketones? After all, we can also burn fatty acids directly, and also proteins without turning them into glucose! I do not mind making glucose, as my main goal is to have a good digestion.

I agree that gluten problem is with nerves more than guts, or both.... i had bloating and diarrhea, but mainly, if I ate gluten without knowing, i would feel as if I had drunk 50 cups of coffee! Tense and shaky and nervous.

Oh, it was not said that the difference between keto and paleo is that keto uses dairies and paleo dos not!

It was nice to learn by Maureen that people in Africa eating high traditional carbs were doing so because meat and fat are considered as food for the rich! And that they have 60% diabetis.... I was already thinking that this was the case for India, or else why diabetis is so much said in Ayurveda to be cured by this or that? Because their diet leads to a lot of diabetis? When I see their population, my conclusion was that meat was a rich persons food, and that humanity was forced to a carb diet by the increase in population! When people can, they eat animal based food.

And cows are in ketosis....? their bacterias produce SCFA because they are ruminants! We cannot do as good, even with resistant starch. Now I orient my garden work for animal and berries production!

Has anyone tried low carb beer while on diet? I have seen here at website that taco bell is doing low carb beers and I was wondering does that will not make me sick if I occasionally have low carb beer with meal?

Low-carb beers seem to be around 2-3 carbs per 12oz (330ish mL) bottle, so you could incorporate them into your diet.  There may be lower-carb options with distilled spirits but, in the end, you have to look at a diet as a lifestyle to be successful.  If you want to have a couple of beers, make them low-carb and track your total carb intake.

I have read that, while alcohol is in your system, your body won't burn much fat; just FYI.

Pati Let wrote:Has anyone tried low carb beer while on diet? I have seen here at website that taco bell is doing low carb beers and I was wondering does that will not make me sick if I occasionally have low carb beer with meal?

If you have no problem with gluten why not....
And no problem with the fungi to make beer.... People allergic to molds should probably take care about this possibility.

I cannot totally agree with this now!

Cj Sloane wrote:Keto Clarity has a section on "Low Carb Myths" one of which is about kidney stones. You could still get a kidney stone while doing keto but remember, you got one when you weren't doing keto!

Here's that info:

The common misinformation that ketosis and low-carb diets cause kidney damage and kidney stones has not been seen in clinical practice, nor has it been demonstrated in the numerous studies done over the last fifteen years or so. Instead, the results we’ve seen have all been positive. – Jackie Eberstein

This is another common criticism of very low-carb diets that has no basis in reality. The claim is that people who consume a ketogenic diet are 500 times more likely to develop kidney stones composed of uric acid and 50 times more likely to develop the more common calcium oxalate kidney stones. What is their proposed solution? Eat more carbohydrates like white rice and potatoes. If a person is uncomfortably symptomatic in some way, then they need to dig deep with a qualified, knowledgeable, and capable professional to determine the underlying problem. Here’s one hint: it has nothing to do with a “starch deficiency.” Dig deeper! One cannot consume so-called safe starches like white rice and potatoes and expect to maintain a healthy ketogenic state. – Nora Gedgaudas

Just like the fears about dry eyes and mouth discussed earlier, this could be an example of blaming a ketogenic diet when someone is predisposed to having kidney stones anyway. To help prevent kidney stones, make sure you are properly hydrated, supplement your diet with magnesium and potassium citrate, eliminate soda from your diet (it’s full of phosphates that contribute to stone formation), and keep an eye on the pH balance of your urine (you can test it with strips available in any health store and tinker with your diet to get it more alkaline than acidic). One thing to keep in mind is that kidney stone formation is more common on a high-carb diet, not a low-carb one, as shared in a British Journal of Urology study published in December 1978. It’s also important to note that many who embark on a low-carb, high-fat, ketogenic diet tend to be those who are dealing with obesity, type 2 diabetes, and metabolic syndrome, all of which are contributing factors in the development of kidney stones. And if your low-carb diet contains higher levels of protein than you need, that, too, can raise your uric acid excretion, which leads to kidney stones (yet another reason to moderate your protein intake and increase the amount of fat you consume). While blood levels of uric acid do indeed increase when you first go ketogenic, those levels normalize within four to eight weeks.

Westman MD, Eric; Moore, Jimmy (2014-08-06). Keto Clarity: Your Definitive Guide to the Benefits of a Low-Carb, High-Fat Diet (p. 197). Victory Belt Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Diets reducing some food increase other foods, and if just by chance you happen to increase oxalate-containing foods.... this will increase your chances to get kidney stones. And this is very common when increasing some veggies and nuts. Just adding a daily salad made of spinach and almonds to your diet can get you into problems!

The other point is that keto makes you loose more electrolytes and you need to drink more and add electrolytes to your water.

The next point they miss is that if you are at your maximum tolerance of fat, and for example get floating stools, the calcium you eat will bind with the fat and induce more oxalate intake!

What they get really right is to take Mg or Ca citrate, but just add that it has to be taken WITH the food, because the goal is to bind oxalate to the mineral. The citrate will help to not make stones. You can also take lemon juice.

I have been in ketosis for 17 months now. I eat below 20 net carbs daily, but have occasionally (maybe 20 days total) have gone up to about 40 without being knocked out of ketosis. At first, I was just desperate to lose weight gained after three years of inactivity due to severe injuries. I have lost all 45 pounds of that weight. But more importantly, my tryglycercides dropped by almost half, and my hdl cholesterol went up by one half! My fasting insulin is now very low and all other glucose markers have gone from near-diabetic to extremely healthy. My insulin-resistance is nil. As a former vegetarian and occasional vegan, the move to a meat-based diet was initially difficult. I am lucky to live where I can buy organic grassfed meat direct from family farms, and grow my own greens and cruciate veggies. I have planted lots of hazelnut trees and hope in the future to be growing some, maybe most, of my nuts and seeds. Everyone's body is different. But I think all of us can benefit by lowering our carbs, even if that just means eliminating added sugars and processed grain flours. Reading the research on fructose is enlightening. A strong case is made for greatly restricting the amount of sugary fruits, as well as root vegetables.

I suggest the website dietdoctor.com for anybody wanting quality free information on the low carb lifestyle. Recipes, links to research and other keto websites, intelligent articles, informative videos by doctors: best of all, the website takes no money from advertising, sells no products, and has no annoying popup ads. Sign up as a free member and get full access for free for 2 weeks-you can watch a lot of video and/or read the full transcripts. I especially value their news feed. Every time the mainstream media publishes another questionable review of a nutritional study, dietdoctor posts a helpful review that makes it easier to sort the rubbish from the useful. I have continued to be a paying member because I support their cause. I have no financial ties to them and make no profit from this endorsement.