Check out Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
John Saltveit wrote:Hi Neil,
Enough people for what? No one is saying that feeding the world will happen only in urban back yards, but it's a part of an overall solution. You can also focus on things that are high value that you can't get in a store, like for example, I grow paw paws, American persimmons, medlars, goumi berries, and 15 kinds of green vegetables that you can't get otherwise. They are complementary. You can also use a CSA for your bulk vegetables, and other stores as well. I have a hugulkultur in my back yard and I put organic matter into the soil, so it is holding carbon. We can also teach others to grow over time. I think in the future we'll have a lot more parks that have fruit trees in them where local neighbors can gather the fruit to eat.
John S
PDX OR
Seeking a long-term partner to establish forest garden. Keen to find that person and happy to just make some friends. http://www.permies.com/t/50938/singles/Male-Edinburgh-Scotland-seeks-soulmate
The key to making sure food distribution networks don't fail is expanding the principles of permaculture worldwide. It becomes an economy of abundance, rather than shortage.Neil Layton wrote:
John Saltveit wrote:Hi Neil,
Enough people for what? No one is saying that feeding the world will happen only in urban back yards, but it's a part of an overall solution. You can also focus on things that are high value that you can't get in a store, like for example, I grow paw paws, American persimmons, medlars, goumi berries, and 15 kinds of green vegetables that you can't get otherwise. They are complementary. You can also use a CSA for your bulk vegetables, and other stores as well. I have a hugulkultur in my back yard and I put organic matter into the soil, so it is holding carbon. We can also teach others to grow over time. I think in the future we'll have a lot more parks that have fruit trees in them where local neighbors can gather the fruit to eat.
John S
PDX OR
This is a fair point, in a world where food distribution networks have not failed, or even where nations and regions have not instituted export restrictions on food. Now, this is a worst-case scenario (although we've already seen limited versions of the latter), but I think that it's something to be aware of when we talk about long-term sustainability. Your system is not sustainable when there are external factors that could wreck it under foreseeable circumstances.
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system."-Bill Mollison
Scott Strough wrote: The key to making sure food distribution networks don't fail is expanding the principles of permaculture worldwide. It becomes an economy of abundance, rather than shortage.
It won't stop a huge "dinosaur killer" asteroid event or a nuclear winter or things of that nature. But it does stop the current unsustainable agricultural practices from collapsing civilization. That is a very real threat and permaculture adopted widely enough is the solution.
Only 60 Years of Farming Left If Soil Degradation Continues
Seeking a long-term partner to establish forest garden. Keen to find that person and happy to just make some friends. http://www.permies.com/t/50938/singles/Male-Edinburgh-Scotland-seeks-soulmate
Neil Layton wrote:
Scott Strough wrote: The key to making sure food distribution networks don't fail is expanding the principles of permaculture worldwide. It becomes an economy of abundance, rather than shortage.
It won't stop a huge "dinosaur killer" asteroid event or a nuclear winter or things of that nature. But it does stop the current unsustainable agricultural practices from collapsing civilization. That is a very real threat and permaculture adopted widely enough is the solution.
Only 60 Years of Farming Left If Soil Degradation Continues
I agree, and I've cited the same study elsewhere.
There are two issues. The first is whether or not instituting more sustainable methods of agriculture worldwide is something we can expect. The second is the extent to which some parts of the world will become increasingly unlivable under the disrupted climate.
Also remember your food forest provides a buffer against partial crop failure. It won't protect against a California-style drought.
Neil Layton wrote:Also remember your food forest provides a buffer against partial crop failure. It won't protect against a California-style drought.
Idle dreamer
They move towards the hubs. The place they hope for a better life. Towards the hub of trade. distribution points. The most likely place they can find work. The most likely place they can find help, a soup kitchen or aid station. To beg or sell themselves into prostitution. To dumpster dive or sort garbage for sellable's. If they cant find or afford gas.
Ross Raven wrote:
As things get desperate, people move towards the cities. Not away from them.
They move towards the hubs. The place they hope for a better life. Towards the hub of trade. distribution points. The most likely place they can find work. The most likely place they can find help, a soup kitchen or aid station. To beg or sell themselves into prostitution. To dumpster dive or sort garbage for sellable's. If they cant find or afford gas.
Sound unlikely? Think Mexico City, New Deli or Bangkok. Think of small rural communities that are boarded up and dyeing.
Idle dreamer
Tyler Ludens wrote:I don't see climate change as being analogous to war. Except in the event of war, cities will not be bombed. In my region there are no peasants living on the land. Just a bunch of people who buy their food at the store.
Idle dreamer
Tyler Ludens wrote:
Let's play "Spot the Food!"
"People may doubt what you say, but they will believe what you do."
Idle dreamer
Tyler Ludens wrote:I disagree that climate change will be all of a sudden. I think it will be relatively gradual. People in this region will probably need to learn to eat some weird stuff, the things that grow here or that could be grown here, many of which aren't part of the "normal" diet.
Let's play "Spot the Food!"
Seeking a long-term partner to establish forest garden. Keen to find that person and happy to just make some friends. http://www.permies.com/t/50938/singles/Male-Edinburgh-Scotland-seeks-soulmate
Idle dreamer
Idle dreamer
Tyler Ludens wrote:I disagree that climate change will be all of a sudden. I think it will be relatively gradual. People in this region will probably need to learn to eat some weird stuff, the things that grow here or that could be grown here, many of which aren't part of the "normal" diet.
Let's play "Spot the Food!"
R Ranson wrote:This is a very interesting thread. I've been following it with a great deal of enthusiasm.
I tell you, I would have a hard time surviving in Tyler's Spot the Food setting. 'Though I suspect, there aren't many who could spot the staple crop here either:
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Image borrowed from here
This little plot of land provided a few thousand people with their main source of carbohydrates. Some historians say their only source of carbs. The crop is still there, and it's not the trees (or the dead people... they've been dead too long to be useful as zombies or staple crop).
Tyler Ludens wrote:I disagree that climate change will be all of a sudden. I think it will be relatively gradual. People in this region will probably need to learn to eat some weird stuff, the things that grow here or that could be grown here, many of which aren't part of the "normal" diet.
Let's play "Spot the Food!"
joseph lofthouse wrote:I'm fortunate to have grown up in an area where community has never been forgotten, and where the gifting economy is still strong and vibrant. Many don't understand, but enough do that it's a joy to be a farmer and to collaborate with the neighbors.
"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young
Idle dreamer
R Ranson wrote:
But can a food forest, alone, provide enough food for us to eat, especially when under the pressures of adapting to an environmental change? Would we want it too? So many variables to consider. I suspect the answer to this question is going to be as varied as the people who consider it.
Idle dreamer
Tyler Ludens wrote:One of the foods in that image was a staple food for the native folks in this region. It would be like looking at a field of potatoes and saying "there's nothing there that will support life for any length of time."
"People may doubt what you say, but they will believe what you do."
"People may doubt what you say, but they will believe what you do."
Idle dreamer
Idle dreamer
Lets put it this way, On a per acre basis a chestnut/hazelnut savanna produces more starch and oil than a corn/soy rotation on a per acre basis. I picked that because chestnuts produce more starch than a cornfield and hazelnuts more oil than soybeans. Some other areas like tropical food forests might even produce more food per acre. Then you have the ability to graze between trees and have understory guild plants too. Paw Paws, berries vines like grapes sheep goats cows chickens etc rotated through at precise times and durations will add to the productivity, fertility and health of the basic chestnut hazelnut model, not detract from it. Same goes for the tropical food forests. So managed properly, a food forest can feed the world, you just need a big enough forest. And that will both be resilient against climate change and mitigate the change itself. There is no down side except some areas are too dry for large forests. Those areas can become food grasslands, again producing more food per acre than the standard corn soy rotation, if managed properly, and both resilient against climate change and mitigating climate change. So once again, no down side.R Ranson wrote:
How many people will it feed? This is very much a personal issue. To be able to feed a hundred or five people, might be taxing on a food forest, but thousands of people... over long periods of time? This seems too much of a challenge for a single food forest. It would probably want something more than just food forests, maybe augmented by other crops... but we can talk about what those crops are in another thread, this thread is forest focused.
Basically, how many people to feed is going to depend on each individual situation. My thoughts for my own situation is that it needs to feed my family, my friends, my new 'friends' who befriend me as soon as they find out I'm not starving, and as much again for trade. This is of course assuming that climate change is going to be something that sticks around.
There is no way I could feed the city with my hand full of acres.
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system."-Bill Mollison
And will you succeed? Yes you will indeed! (98 and 3/4 % guaranteed) - Seuss. tiny ad:
Willow Feeder movie
https://permies.com/t/273181/Willow-Feeder-movie
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