no make-up / natural beauty

Some of my thoughts on the topic.

People, both men and woman, have been decorating their bodies since as far back as we know.

Sure I think it wonderful to suggest healthier forms of decoration for those who enjoy decorating themselves. I think it is wonderful to entourage natural beauty and break the cycle of indoctrination of "make up equals beauty".

But I accept that people will decorate themselves, sometimes in ways I don't like, sometimes in ways I do. I think as the world connects more and more globally, social stigmas are breaking down about the different ways people decorate themselves. Tattoos, piercings, died hair, make up or no make up, etc... is all becoming more and more socially acceptable as examples of people doing things differently are more widely visible.

I personally find low or no makeup on a woman much more attractive than someone with a high make up look. And yes there is some judgement of who that person with lots of make is that comes from me. The main thing I get from seeing heavy make up on a woman is "this person is high maintenance" Someone with a lot of makeup signals to me that they will spend a considerable time worrying about appearance. That I will need to assure them that indeed they are beautiful on a regular basis. Etc... That just isn't fun for me. I don't play the compliment fishing game too well, and will eventually start just saying the thing the woman fears to hear just to get them to stop fishing. "does this dress make me look fat?" is eventually answered by "Why yes it does, you better go change for the 20th time", "Does my makeup look ok?" is answered eventually by "Well if you were going for the clown look, sure just fine"

And another big one about less or no makeup, is recognizing the woman you wake up next to as indeed the one you got into bed with. I personally enjoy seeing the woman not the makeup.

Make-up can be an art form and, like any art, it can be very beautiful to the beholder and a wonderful form of self-expression for the artist.

However, I've honestly never met a women who doesn't looks more *attractive* with no make-up. Natural beauty shines from within and make-up masks it, gets in the way. Also, the expressiveness of a face is always a greater contributor to attractiveness than skin quality, bone structure or any other superficial factor. A women with a radiant smile and pocked-marked skin, for example, is way more attractive than a classically beautiful face with expressionless eyes.

IMO, obviously.

Of course, adverts (etc.) need to grab your attention very quickly and make-up is very effective for this. They are also 2 dimensional and often static or fleeting which makes it difficult to portray the beauty of a real woman. Women who model themselves on this kind of beauty will turn heads as they look attractive even in peripheral vision, and that's fine if that's what they want - it must be a powerful feeling. The same goes for sexy clothing - it looks amazing and is very attractive at first glance and from a distance. But as a template for beauty, it is highly misleading ... though it will attract men who have also been taken in by this concept of instant beauty.

As I hit that age (12-13) and had a mother that put on makeup every day (basic foundation, and a bit of eyeliner and lipstick, nothing fancy), I did wear makeup for a few months and got fairly good at the application (including eye shadow). Then puberty hormones zarched me over, and several things surfaced including minor psoriasis. I still battle the flakes. Putting makeup on would cause my whole face to 'flake'. So. I have been makeup-less. I look about 15-20 years younger than my mother at a similar age now and it is because I didn't do makeup all those years. Other benefits--less cost, less time dedicated to 'putting my face on' every day. I still moisturize and medicate, but it is a definite plus not-to. Oh, for my wedding? Lipgloss. Not being used to wearing such, it got wiped off in a big hurry. My natural lip color thankfully is a 'good shade' so I can just live with "Being Me".

K Putnam wrote:I like the sentiment of the OP.

I dye my hair as a form of self-expression, not to meet someone else's standard of beauty. And I have tattoos. I am not pouring RoundUp in the soup.

And I am pretty damn tired of men judging a woman's personality by her appearance.

Moving on.

I use a lovely honey-oat face wash and finish with apricot kernel oil or natural-oil sunscreen in the summer. For an important event, I put on some mineral makeup and a touch of mascara. No apologies.

THIS. All of it. <3

I am actually quite surprised to see so much attention on this topic, and I've enjoyed reading everyone's perspectives.

I am of the camp that does not make assumptions about women based on how many layers of foundation are on their face. Though, I also do not automatically assume someone is healthy or unhealthy based on their weight or any factor really. I just truly have known WAY too many exceptions to the generalizations and stereotypes to ever allow myself to do that.

People are more eclectic and unique than we can ever understand. I don't know why we constantly try to put people in boxes.

"OMG LIPSTICK?! She's definitely a chemical-infused superficial biatch."
"Oh, look, we can see that one's freckles! She's must be a wholesome, wise earth goddess."
"Oh, well that one only has light mascara, so she's probably somewhere in the middle, maybe acceptable, but only if she composts."

Do you hear how absurd that sounds?

The fucked up thing is that we have you guys (not all of you, I realize) telling us that if we do wear make-up we are superficial, poison-lovers who just have no respect for our bodies or health, AND simultaneously we have the other half of the world telling us that if we don't wear it, we are unprofessional, unkempt, and that we just don't care about ourselves enough to show some effort.

It. Is. Exhausting.

I am so proud of all the people in the world and this thread who have taken enough time to truly think about what they, themselves want to do, rather than let other people dictate that. I, too wear makeup every once in a while because it is fun and playful, and I do that for myself. But all I'm saying is that it's hard, and we should cut some people some slack that might be mislead by all of the differing messages flying at them, and not judge their entire personality off such small things.

For example. Look at the two pictures below. Those are both of me. I didn't change radically in between the times that I took them. I am still me. They are the same person. Wouldn't you be sad if you missed out on getting to know a spectacular person because you assumed something about them that didn't end up being true at all? Just because they were wearing lipstick?

I prefer folks who wear a smile

david

David Livingston wrote:I prefer folks who wear a smile

david

I find that is the best thing to put on your face, a smile. (oh and floss the stringies and scrape the spinach off your teeth... )

K Putnam wrote:I like the sentiment of the OP.

I dye my hair as a form of self-expression, not to meet someone else's standard of beauty. And I have tattoos.

And I am pretty damn tired of men judging a woman's personality by her appearance.

Amen. I love good body art. How much do I have? Zero. (long story about actually having one inked up and having a 'hit me with the needle first' as I wanted to see how it felt and I offered the back of my hand for the trial zap... I paid the money, left, washed off the ink). I will admire it on others, and have no problems asking if I can look (or look closer). Even piercings, I have two sets of holes in my ears, grown shut (see: worsening metal allergies) and the only one I ask is Do Not Rattle Your Tongue Stud On Your Teeth, Please.

There are dyes and there are dyes. There are a number of natural ones or even 'chalking' your hair for a short term expression. Henna, I was told never to use on my hair (I have massively strong red undertones) and these days I'd probably break out from it.

I am intelligent. That doesn't mean I'm smart. In taking certain testing, I do exceedingly well on the tests. I also studied and have worked in several male dominated lines of work and have some very good skills. You wouldn't know it to look at me, because I'm a woman. I have worked temp for years, this means assignments doing what you're told and the jobs vary a lot. I got counseled a few times over as I would show up for a clerical job with the skills of an executive secretary, and not be wearing makeup. One place, I survived where there should have been two people doing the job, and the department people said midweek 'I'm surprised she's still here, the last time X took a vacation we went through three temps that week'. And I got called in for not wearing makeup to the agency. I asked the woman if she had some with her, and if she would get it out, please. And as gross as it was, I opened a bottle of her foundation, put some on my fingertip and put some on my cheek. By the time I closed the bottle and put it back in her zipper thing my face had turned red and flaked. I pointed to it and said 'I have the skills but you get them makeup-free.' I worked for that company for two more years, and was sent out a lot for vacationing receptionists and secretaries... and they told the client I had allergies so I would be makeup free... the other assignments were tech manufacturing line jobs (which paid a lot better) and nobody cared about makeup.

I'm probably going to get flogged for saying this, but many women look better with a little makeup. Please understand, I am not talking about putting it on with a trowel. The idea should be that no one is really sure if you are or aren't wearing makeup.

As a guy, I appreciate natural beauty a lot, but realistically we are not all equally blessed and I see nothing wrong with helping yourself along. I wear glasses because I am near sighted and don't wear tshirts because I think they show my keg (as apposed to a six pack) more than button down shirts. My dad has a hat permanently on his head because he is self conscious that he is balding. If it helps you feel more confident and causes no harm, why not? It isn't the ideal, but I view it as a crutch, hopefully thrown away when the leg heals.

I was good friends with a lady once who had a large, very evident birth mark on her face. She refused to have it removed because she said peoples reactions to it sorted them out for her. I felt like she was identifying herself way too much with her birthmark and part of her inaction was simply fear. My body naturally produces bad smells, eventually. It helps in my interactions with others if I bathe occasionally. I am not the bad smells unless I decide they define me.

Men are sometimes accused of being shallow by putting whether a woman looks good high among her many other qualities in judging whether she's dating material. My reply is most women really notice if man is employed, lazy, has a drug or alcohol problem (all relating to his ability to provide) and that often outways the fact that he is funny, sensitive or intelligent. I'm not saying women shouldn't notice. Each person has to decide what is important to them. When you are considering involving yourself with someone else they are going to effect your life. The closer you are involved the greater the effect. We all have something we look at. Some of our standards appears to be genetic/ instinctual or at least world wide and cross cultures. Some is clearly cultural. Usually it's the ones who don't grade well on the test that want a new test issued. When a guy looks at a good looking woman it makes him feel good, just biology. We seek that good feeling.

As far as lightening skin, I remember reading years ago that there were groups in polynesia and africa that would sequester girls from the sun for months before they graduated to adult to make their skin lighten because it was thought to be either more beautiful or aristocratic. It seemed to me when I read it that this stuff was going on before much european contact. Indigenous cultures are capable of some strange ideas without European assistance, just like they didn't need European assistance to have good ideas.

I have a daughter who is currently into the heavy makeup, raccoon eyes look. The funny part is she is an exceptionally pretty girl and doesn't need the make up at all. I think she is much prettier without any makeup on. I think that she sees something besides reality when she looks in the mirror, kind of like anorexia victims. Not only that, the makeup is part of her teen age tribal badge. It seems to attract all the wrong guys (spoken as a father). Of course, I have very little use for the guys in that particular tribe, seem like a bunch of whiny, skinny jeaned, self centered babies to me. (Wow, I am really sounding old!!!) She tells me it isn't about the guys at all, the makeup is her security blanket. Well, I'm hoping she finds a better security blanket.

When my wife puts on make up, I don't really notice because we've been together long enough that when I look at her I see HER more than the shell around her. That comes with time, but at the outset, all you see is the shell.

As far as make up goes, I think women are the ones demanding it more than men.

I agree that people should avoid damaging themselves, that includes makeup, overeating, alcohol, insufficient exercise, tobacco, pot, assorted drugs, tattoos, harsh chemicals on your skin and sports that have a good chance of causing permanent damage. If you look at my last sentence I probably zinged about 95% of the population with at least one damaging habit. We are all learning (hopefully) and I'm hoping we can discard our crutches as we grow.

The thing about crutches, is we should be aware that's what they are. We may need them our entire lives in some cases, but we should examine what we are doing and why.

I have a shaved head, a goatee, tattoos, scars, and muscles. Don't judge me for looking like a thug, and I won't judge you, whether you wear make-up or not.

Deb Rebel wrote:
I got counseled a few times over as I would show up for a clerical job with the skills of an executive secretary, and not be wearing makeup. One place, I survived where there should have been two people doing the job, and the department people said midweek 'I'm surprised she's still here, the last time X took a vacation we went through three temps that week'. And I got called in for not wearing makeup to the agency. I asked the woman if she had some with her, and if she would get it out, please. And as gross as it was, I opened a bottle of her foundation, put some on my fingertip and put some on my cheek. By the time I closed the bottle and put it back in her zipper thing my face had turned red and flaked. I pointed to it and said 'I have the skills but you get them makeup-free.' I worked for that company for two more years, and was sent out a lot for vacationing receptionists and secretaries... and they told the client I had allergies so I would be makeup free... the other assignments were tech manufacturing line jobs (which paid a lot better) and nobody cared about makeup.

I am still astounded (and disgusted and angry) that there are still jobs that require a woman (but of course not men) to wear makeup. I went into the education sector, and never knew that this was a requirement for some jobs until hearing about it from others, in my mid-twenties. The only jobs I can understand requiring a person to wear makeup is a place that sells makeup, or actors on stage!

Kali Maya wrote:
As far as hair dye goes, that was a different story. I started to grey at 15,.and by 35 was mostly grey. After getting cancer, I quit using all toxic chemicals, and opted for natural alternatives. At first I used the boxed stuff at the health food store, until the price soared to $20 a box, and I then tried other alternatives, such as henna. My hair is pretty difficult to work with though, and I recently gave up on it completely. It was a big step for me.

Grey and white rock!! I'm 33 and starting to get a few white wisps here and there. I'm totally ok with it--waiting for more.


Make up: no. But I don't feel strongly about it. I was just never interested in it, even as a teen, but I also broke all of those other natural rules at the same time--hard. So you really can't judge a face by its nakedness. These days there's fewer poisons in my world, but I can't say there are none. Still no make up. I have the dark circles & bags, too, I think from sinus congestion/allergies. I don't cover them up though; too much fuss. It makes more sense to figure out how to fix the sinus/allergy issue, which I'm slowly working on.

When you first meet someone, you go by their appearance. That's pretty much all you have at first. If you don't want to accept that others will judge you by your appearance, you are living in a fantasy world.

If you look like a thug, hooker, druggy, doctor, policeman, or soldier it will effect how people treat you. You do the same thing. It is an unconcious threat/ ally assessment. You of course are free to present yourself as you wish. Others are free to assess you. We often alter our appearance to identify our 'tribe' or group. Go to the mall, you can easily identify with a fair degree of accuracy the goths, the rednecks, the military, the jocks, etc. This is pretty much everywhere. I knew a guy that lived in Ethiopia and he said that there were about 200 different groups that had subtle differences in their dress, hair styles, etc. They were offended if they were misidentified. We are still there in our own society.

Makeup use in my opinion is a relatively minor personal decision.

If you are working for someone else, you represent them. Therefore, while on the job, they have a vested interest in your appearance. As a man, I have, over the years, worked in many places where there was an official or unofficial dress code, including jewelry, hair and facial hair. Since I was a guy, make up was not required (or allowed). If I didn't like it, I moved onto another job (accept when I was in the military, moving on was not a good option). If there was a medical justification for your noncompliance, it is accepted, but may be the unofficial reason you later find yourself leaving.

Cassie Langstraat wrote:

K Putnam wrote:I like the sentiment of the OP.

I dye my hair as a form of self-expression, not to meet someone else's standard of beauty. And I have tattoos. I am not pouring RoundUp in the soup.

And I am pretty damn tired of men judging a woman's personality by her appearance.

Moving on.

I use a lovely honey-oat face wash and finish with apricot kernel oil or natural-oil sunscreen in the summer. For an important event, I put on some mineral makeup and a touch of mascara. No apologies.

THIS. All of it. <3

I am actually quite surprised to see so much attention on this topic, and I've enjoyed reading everyone's perspectives.

I am of the camp that does not make assumptions about women based on how many layers of foundation are on their face. Though, I also do not automatically assume someone is healthy or unhealthy based on their weight or any factor really. I just truly have known WAY too many exceptions to the generalizations and stereotypes to ever allow myself to do that.

People are more eclectic and unique than we can ever understand. I don't know why we constantly try to put people in boxes.

"OMG LIPSTICK?! She's definitely a chemical-infused superficial biatch."
"Oh, look, we can see that one's freckles! She's must be a wholesome, wise earth goddess."
"Oh, well that one only has light mascara, so she's probably somewhere in the middle, maybe acceptable, but only if she composts."

Do you hear how absurd that sounds?

The fucked up thing is that we have you guys (not all of you, I realize) telling us that if we do wear make-up we are superficial, poison-lovers who just have no respect for our bodies or health, AND simultaneously we have the other half of the world telling us that if we don't wear it, we are unprofessional, unkempt, and that we just don't care about ourselves enough to show some effort.

It. Is. Exhausting.

I am so proud of all the people in the world and this thread who have taken enough time to truly think about what they, themselves want to do, rather than let other people dictate that. I, too wear makeup every once in a while because it is fun and playful, and I do that for myself. But all I'm saying is that it's hard, and we should cut some people some slack that might be mislead by all of the differing messages flying at them, and not judge their entire personality off such small things.

For example. Look at the two pictures below. Those are both of me. I didn't change radically in between the times that I took them. I am still me. They are the same person. Wouldn't you be sad if you missed out on getting to know a spectacular person because you assumed something about them that didn't end up being true at all? Just because they were wearing lipstick?

Very well said Cassie. I am EXHAUSTED trying to figure out what is attractive and what is not. I am 46 years old. I have a clean living lifestyle. (At least, the best that I can in this polluted society) I never wore makeup growing up. My friends tried giving me make-overs and it was fun play, but I never wore it outside- just because I didn't want to. Then I turned 45, still single with no prospects. I have many male friends who think I'm a great gal but men just never showed any interest in me until the day I put on some makeup- and I use earth/animal/human friendly products- and posted some pics on social media.It's not even a lot of makeup- a little brow shaping, light eyeliner, mascara, subtle lipstick and a dusting of powder for the shine. Suddenly I started getting attention and asked out on dates. Some men were, for obvious reasons, not what I was looking for, but others were just good people who noticed me and wanted to get to know me. I don't like wearing makeup and I don't hide that fact from guys I date. I am a strong, self-aware and self-confident woman but I am being completely honest by admitting that I don't want to spend the second half of my life alone. I want a life partner. Have I found him yet? No, but at least now I feel like I may have some options. Bottom line, I wear makeup because I attract men when I do, even the clean-living, permaculture guys that I'm attracted to- the ones who thought what I'm doing with the earth is cool but never really showed me any attention. What's a girl to do?? Those of you men who have condemned me and those like me, you would never know how much I love working with the soil and plants and animals who share our space, or that I have a kind and loving heart and that most of the time, I wear no makeup.

I wonder if it has to do with that other part of a relationship. The one that almost everyone is afraid to admit/ talk about. Cause if we wanted a partner because we didn't "want to be alone" we could just get a roommate.
But a roommate won't fulfill the intimate and sensual desires common to human beings. While a man might like a woman (or a woman might like a man) if there is no sign that person would be open and playful in that area, he/she would be thought of as a possible roommate at best.

The makeup is not attractive in itself. Makeup is a way of expressing a desire to for the body to be admired and thus presents a clue to possible intimate character.
Makeup and "sexy" clothing is the easiest way to do this (for both sexes). Keeping yourself fit, skin healthy, hair well combed, etc. is damn hard! Keeping a set of nice work clothes and a clean set of nice socializing clothes that compliments your character is also damn hard!

But however you do it, expressing visual clues to intimate character is going to get attention.

I eventually found that the prettiest thing I can put on my face is a smile, judging from others' responses. (Especially when I'm looking in the mirror, doing the 'fixing' ;)

And that most folks aren't interested in what I look like; they are looking for clues as to what I think THEY look like! So... a smiling face with an attentive, listening expression is the most beautiful (and 'acceptable', re: our constant subtle seeking for 'approval') thing we can present to anyone .... I think ;)

But I'm 70, married 50 years, so.... out of the 'game' ... just 1.5 cents :)

I personally think it's smart for a woman to wear makeup because she wants a partner. It's smart for a guy who's in the market to clean up and do what he can to make himself attractive to the lady. In real life competition you compete or loose.

My wife realized a long time ago that there are fewer suitable guys out there for our daughters to marry than there are gals who want them. (Same on both sides, 90% are chasing 10% of the other gender). Not talking about the captain of the football team, or prom queen, but there are a lot of people so screwed up that anyone hooking up with them is buying a lot of pain for themselves. It's better to get a partner rather than a patient. Anyway, my wife has explained to our kids that there is a real competition going on and if you want to pair up, you need to compete. Look at it from the other persons viewpoint. Their choice is associate with the person who doesn't care enough to try, or the person who does.

That said, 5 of my 6 daughters don't ordinarily wear much if any makeup, but they know how to apply the war paint when they want to.

I have what I think is an interesting sidenote on this discussion. Two of the roommates of my oldest daughter sent off for some of that 'pheromone' enhanced perfume as part of a study for a class. For a month they would go to different places, dressed up, dressed down, with and without the perfume and noted the male response. They said it was crazy effective. They got way more attention when wearing the perfume. One of my sons told me one of his roommates found he got way more attention from the ladies when he wore pheromone aftershave (his wasn't a study, he was just a desperate guy trying to hook up).

I am not advocating this in any way because I think reality will eventually come crashing in on any long term relationship based on some artificial stimulant. I'm just noting the hairless monkey condition we are all part of.

There have been studies that show that men find women in the fertile phase of their month more attractive. Other studies have found women are attracted to different men depending on their hormonal condition (on the pill, fertile, pregnant).

We are not quite the logical, removed beings we might wish ourselves to be. We respond before the thinking part of the brain even kicks in.

I heard a story about a guy who married a woman primarily because of her beautiful voice. The morning after the wedding he opened his eyes and the first thing he saw was her hair on the bedpost. Her breasts were hanging from the other post. Turning his head he saw her teeth in a glass by her side of the bed. He jumped out of bed and yelled "For Heavens sake, SING, woman!!!"

There is a point at which dressing up the truth becomes lying. Each person has to identify that point for themselves. Anyone in the market for a partner should and will put their best foot forward, but we shouldn't lie. That can only bite us on the butt in the end.

@Mick F. :"We are not quite the logical, removed beings we might wish ourselves to be......There is a point at which dressing up the truth becomes lying."

Nonsense!....we are eminently practical!

The photo of the lads below is clear evidence that they were already experimenting with early versions of zinc-oxide as a preventative for UV damage to the skin. In addition, the wigs and long coats, laden with odors and bugs that they may have been, were quite obviously an attempt to develop permie outdoor/gardening attire that would resist the most valiant efforts of biting flies, mosquitoes, and midges, with the wig lice being an early verison of biological control by pre-infesting a colonization niche. Bonus: I'm thinking my wife will swoon even the more upon finding me thusly attired among the potatoes and parsips on a

....sweltering

.....hot

....steamy

....afternoon...."...out in the midday sun". (I think sunstroke is setting in....... )

Back when I was mostly grown up and dating, and all that good jazz, they had just come out with the pheromone perfume and I bought some. Didn't seem to make a difference.

I did meet one very decent fellow at college (I will admit over a lot of beer on a July day) and we've been married for 34 years. Lack of gilding didn't seem to matter.

You can be painted up and perfumed and I won't immediately write you off. Smelling because you're not clean is a much worse sin (I'm not talking fairly fresh because it's hot, I'm talking about days of patina that have gone ripe). If you're smoking and chewing gum (one or both) that is the worse turnoff than just having warpaint and smellwater (and maybe acrylics and such) on.

My best beauty tips: be clean. Even if you are soap and shampoo-less, you can still wash up, bathe, or shower enough to be clean. Hair (face, head, and other) should be tamed. Not it has to be missing or short, just neat. Braided beards can be utterly cool, again be clean. Use moisturizer (aloe is great stuff). Wear a sun hat. Wear a smile. Be hydrated. If I look tough in the morning, 16 ounces of water and half an hour can do wonders.

Because I never really could do makeup I am probably fifteen years younger looking than if I had... and all the time and $ I saved on not having to put my face on in the morning. So worth it. I did have a turkey wattle neck show but I had to crash off a third of my body weight for health reasons and I can live with the tradeoff. I still look pretty decent considering what I've been through. Now if I can convince the whitecaps (grey hair) to come in EVENLY I'd be set. Oh, and the big long bushy eyebrow hairs-my face wants to grow a forest up there. Sigh. Still. I can face the world after just washing my face in the morning, such a hassle free time...

My best beauty tips: be clean. Even if you are soap and shampoo-less, you can still wash up, bathe, or shower enough to be clean. Hair (face, head, and other) should be tamed. Not it has to be missing or short, just neat. Braided beards can be utterly cool, again be clean. Use moisturizer (aloe is great stuff). Wear a sun hat. Wear a smile. Be hydrated. If I look tough in the morning, 16 ounces of water and half an hour can do wonders.

I agree.

The most important beauty tip I know is a happy smile does more to make you attractive than anything else. A religious sister who was a friend of mine commented once that there is nothing beautiful about an angry person. Words of truth!!!

While your cleaning your body, take the time to clean your soul, (sometimes harder to clean than the body). If you can get rid of the anger, bitterness, and hard heart that life tries to put on us and greet the world with confident hope that good will come, joy and sweetness in dealing with others, then those who get to know you will see a beautiful person, no matter what your body looks like. If you fail to do that, you are just whitewashing a sepulchre. No matter what you do to the outside, inside is nastiness, and it will show.

"One way to best illustrate this unlawful war is the makeup shaming happening in social media to women who loves wearing makeup. Shamers accuse these women of being insecure, having low self-esteem and persons who do not love themselves. Worst, they are tagged as “men attention seeking bitches”."

So that's why we are having this discussion? No offense but I consider that article to be promoting makeup. And the lady in the pictures... I think she would look very nice if she gained 5-10 pounds and had a cup of coffee to wake up. other than that, why did she put on makeup? The makeup version looks scary to me.

I don't know enough to know why a woman would want to wear makeup in a style and extent to which one really sees a different body than is actually there. However, body paint can be used to express interests and personality. What ever you do to your body... the clothes you wear, the jewelry, how you paint it.... all says something about you. Clothes, we have to wear clothes so that can be chosen without thought. Makeup, however, takes thought and effort. Makeup is an obvious expression of self. The person wearing it has one idea of what that expresses. The person viewing it has another idea of what that expresses. Because of advertisement by the makeup industry, what it really expresses is probably neither of the two views.

IMO If one wants beauty It takes this order, Diet, hygiene, exercise, attitude, clothes. Beyond that you get into attention getting and cover ups. If you want the attention grabber, fine enough. If you are covering something up, you should (remember I said IMO) be working on changing what it is you are covering up.

Jotham Bessey wrote:"One way to best illustrate this unlawful war is the makeup shaming happening in social media to women who loves wearing makeup. Shamers accuse these women of being insecure, having low self-esteem and persons who do not love themselves. Worst, they are tagged as “men attention seeking bitches”."

So that's why we are having this discussion? No offense but I consider that article to be promoting makeup. And the lady in the pictures... I think she would look very nice if she gained 5-10 pounds and had a cup of coffee to wake up. other than that, why did she put on makeup? The makeup version looks scary to me.

I don't know enough to know why a woman would want to wear makeup in a style and extent to which one really sees a different body than is actually there. However, body paint can be used to express interests and personality. What ever you do to your body... the clothes you wear, the jewelry, how you paint it.... all says something about you. Clothes, we have to wear clothes so that can be chosen without thought. Makeup, however, takes thought and effort. Makeup is an obvious expression of self. The person wearing it has one idea of what that expresses. The person viewing it has another idea of what that expresses. Because of advertisement by the makeup industry, what it really expresses is probably neither of the two views.

IMO If one wants beauty It takes this order, Diet, hygiene, exercise, attitude, clothes. Beyond that you get into attention getting and cover ups. If you want the attention grabber, fine enough. If you are covering something up, you should (remember I said IMO) be working on changing what it is you are covering up.

I'm raising two young girls into women, and have to worry about how they portray themselves to the world. This affects not just their financial success in life, but also their basic safety. People who have low self esteem attract predators and how much effort a person puts into their appearance says something about what they think of themselves. We have very concrete rules about their appearance before they're allowed out of their room. They must pull their hair back from their faces. That can be anything a ponytail, a large stylish headband, a small braid on one side of the face, just a barrette. The rest of the rules are basic hygiene, but this step beyond the basic gives a clear and obvious sign to the world that these girls are worth the extra effort to someone.

I feel weird having to defend women's right to wear makeup without being accused of some kind of coverup or being an attention grabber. I may wear a little eye shadow as much as six times in a year, so I'm a long way from being a hardcore make up person. I tend to treat it like dressing up on days when I feel exceptionally playful. I also let my nieces wear a little on special occasions. It is not done as a coverup or attention grabber anymore than dressing well. It's an accessory just as much as a scarf or piece of jewelry.  They're learning to treat it as such, matching the makeup to the activity without any hidden idea that it is supposed to compensate for some flaw in themselves. Some examples, Halloween gets full face elaborate design, special church functions can have a light dusting of shimmering powder on the eyes so they can enjoy the sparkle, theatrical performances can have vivid colors that highlight the face from the distance of a stage.

This attitude is already paying off in literal cash terms for both girls. Last summer neighbors (many of them) started approaching these elementary school girls with summer job offers that need someone reliable and trustworthy.  I hope that they carry the same attitude into their adult years. I don't want to teach them that makeup is some huge and controversial issue. Not wearing it doesn't make them slovenly, ugly, or essentially naked and wearing it doesn't make them slutty, pretentious, or insecure. In makeup or out, they are intelligent, hard working, creative, ethical, respectable, kind, healthy (though I wouldn't want to shame them for illness) and all around wonderful young women. They can have a little sparkle if it suits their mood.

I do agree that there is a problem if someone is so unhappy with their appearance that they are using makeup to cover up. I think that speaks more to mental health issues that would just be expressed in another fashion if makeup weren't the style.  Assuming that every woman wearing makeup is subject to this kind of issue is a gross stereotype and something I would be insulted by.

Attention getter is not necessarily a bad thing. The makeup industry really could be blamed for this. their ads suggested you had to wear makeup to be beautiful. Even the name..... "Cover Girl" ..... seriously? cover what? The makeup industry wanted more business and instead of promoting festive uses and self expression, they tried to convince everyone they needed makeup to be beautiful. Some people believed them, most people believed them to the extent that they now think makeup is for covering up.

A little bit of makeup for festivities or self expression fine. I'd like to point out though, There are a great many people that you wouldn't recognize without their makeup. Go in a bank with a mask on and they'd call the police, but completely covered in makeup, fine!
So this is what the discussion is about. it isn't saying makeup is terrible thing. But if you buy into the makeup industry propaganda that you have to be constantly wearing their product to be beautiful, you've let them kill your self esteem and suck you into another facet for consumerism slavery.    

All I know that because of psoriasis emerging in the teen years just about the time girls usually started to use and wear makeup (i.e., junior high aka 12-13) I never wore makeup. To thank for forty or so years of not wearing it, I look about fifteen years younger than I would from all those years of clogging my pores and exposing myself to the ingredients in the makeup.

My mom and her sisters couldn't face their day until they painted up. One aunt in particular, it took a good three hours of her morning to get enough caffeine and get her face gilded for the day. EVERY DAY. They stayed with us for a reunion and I was late teens, and could get up in morning, grab some caffeine and be fully dressed and ready to go in say 10 minutes. Totally blew my uncle's mind. I have saved a fortune in makeup costs, and many hours of my life, not gilding.

I have had feedback from work situations where the employer (working temp) was upset I wasn't in eyeshadow, some blush, and lip gloss. The agency would have to counter with you asked for someone WITH the skillset, is there anything wrong with her work? (No, never was, my work was always excellent and as advertised). She has a medical condition and can't wear the makeup, so, should we replace her? They always kept me on for the assignment.

If you don't wear makeup, your life is simpler, your skin is generally clearer, and you will look more youthful longer. Some can do remarkable things WITH makeup, I don't deny that. It is an artform and skillfully done can truly transform someone. So it's a choice as much as anything else we do in this life.

There are some cultures and countries where MEN wear makeup too, as the pressure to look flawless is on them too. The industry would love to double their client base so showing men wearing makeup is gaining ground. Be young. Be perfect. Paint.

History has had both sexes wearing it before, many times over. Often concocted from harmful and dangerous stuff (white lead for a pale complextion, anyone? Or drink the water from an arsenic spring to get a pale translucent skintone? Kohl, a lovely dark grey sparkly eye shadow, made from powdered galena (lead ore) ) Our modern cosmetics are supposed to be safer, with testing and all that, but.

I wish the word would get out that makeup is OPTIONAL and if I don't wear any it's by choice for a reason or reasons I don't have to disclose.

David Livingston wrote:belle adonna lit translation  beautiful woman
They also used the herb "eye bright ' goodness knows whats in that

David

Actually David, "eyebright" isn't so terrible. It's very good for your eyes, and was used as a cure-all for all diseases of the eye back then. If I'm remembering the article I read on it in an herbal this summer, it is particularly high in vitamin A.

Another .02:

Casie B gave an example of makeup as part of practical social skills, self awareness and environmental awareness. _Part_, may I emphasize. Makes _lots_ of sense to me. What we have to do, what specific skills we need, etc, depends on our environment. But there _are_ skills and they _are_ important somewhere along the way.  There're lots of little skills like that. So OK. Is makeup something special worthy of dogma or religious feeling?

Makeup seems like just another part of a person's expression. Like clothing. Their car. Their language. Their movements, rhythm. The stories they tell. Whether they have/like pets.  Certain people go around laying trips on others for various reasons. Makeup just happens to be one of those things that can be abused like that. I hope most women don't wear themselvs out on the angst, just do what's needed and then what they like  the rest of the time.

That's what men do... Eventually.


Rufus

And then there's the question of the tattoo....

" A religious sister who was a friend of mine commented once that there is nothing beautiful about an angry person. Words of truth!!!"

I don't know, I've seen people for whom anger was a beautiful thing to wear. Not because of anything to do with their beauty to me otherwise, but how anger changed the highlights of their face and changed their pose. Admittedly, I am very odd in a variety of ways, and am sure most people do not agree.

One thing I think a lot of people don't seem to realize is that good makeup made from skin and environment-friendly materials can protect against damage from the other pollutants we encounter in life, and help to protect against sun damage. The right kind of makeup (which depends as much as what is "the right kind" for each person as it does which ingredients are used) will prevent grease and other oils from getting into your skin, will block UV radiation like I already mentioned and can even prevent other forms of dirt and debris from becoming problems. While makeup is something that's highly and unnecessarily gendered and otherwise forced on us by greater society, it can be an effective way to stay healthy for some people. I wear it, and I'm not a woman. Admittedly I have to make my own and I wear it pretty sparingly - and mostly as a barrier between my skin and the sun and to add color to my currently pretty colorless face - but it is part of how I keep healthy while outside. I'm very sun sensitive, from having to wear sunglasses even in the middle of Washington/Seattle winters to having two autoimmune diseases which can flare if I spend too much time outside without full cover and full sunblock, so if I'm already having to slather something on, I may as well like how it looks right? And lip balm is lip balm whether or not I add berry powders to it.

My mom used to be a General Manager at Sbarro, which for those who don't know is a Pizzeria and Italian Eatery that, for most of the US, operates out of malls (the first store is in NY by where the WTC used to be, iirc) and she once told me that she wore makeup not because she felt it was more professional, though she did prefer the look despite it not looking great by the end of the day, but because it provided a barrier between her skin and all of the gunk that can get on your face in a kitchen/pizza place. I have also seen other people talk about makeup as a form of armor, and one of my favorite bloggers The Fat Nutritionist talks about "beauty drag" and how using makeup and other sorts of outfit engineering to be treated better by strangers and acquiantences.

...I forgot where I was going with this so I'm just going to end this here.

Jotham Bessey wrote:Attention getter is not necessarily a bad thing. The makeup industry really could be blamed for this. their ads suggested you had to wear makeup to be beautiful. Even the name..... "Cover Girl" ..... seriously? cover what? The makeup industry wanted more business and instead of promoting festive uses and self expression, they tried to convince everyone they needed makeup to be beautiful. Some people believed them, most people believed them to the extent that they now think makeup is for covering up.

A little bit of makeup for festivities or self expression fine. I'd like to point out though, There are a great many people that you wouldn't recognize without their makeup. Go in a bank with a mask on and they'd call the police, but completely covered in makeup, fine!
So this is what the discussion is about. it isn't saying makeup is terrible thing. But if you buy into the makeup industry propaganda that you have to be constantly wearing their product to be beautiful, you've let them kill your self esteem and suck you into another facet for consumerism slavery.    

"Cover Girl" makeup alludes to the fact that you can look like the models on the cover of magazines who are known in the modeling industry as Cover Girls--the most beautiful models (according to someone) are the ones who are chosen for this.  So, if you wear Cover Girl makeup you can look like a Cover Girl model--extremely beautiful!  :-0

I never learned makeup when I was young, partly because of how I was raised, and partly because I didn't have anyone who could teach me.  (My own few experiments always looked decidedly weird!)  Possibly because of the lack of makeup, my skin is pretty good.  (My skin got even healthier once I started taking niacin.  I swear sometimes it's got a natural glow!)

Another reason I avoid makeup is the purely practical.  I developed severe allergies, and need to avoid all kinds of chemicals.  Perfumes can make me sick (and have impacted my life just from trying to go to church, public places, etc.).  I think it's pretty sick that corporations have indoctrinated people to think they're putting the best foot forward by spraying chemicals on themselves to go to a place of worship that's supposedly not about yourself at all.

These things aren't regulated, and I don't have to see studies to know they're dangerous; I really just have to avoid them because of my own personal health and reactions.

That said, because of the way I grew up, and because my skin is actually pretty damn good, I don't feel too self-conscious about it most of the time.  I've never had any rude comments about not wearing makeup, and I don't work in an industry where it really matters how I look.  Sometimes I see women with really lovely makeup and think, "Wow, she looks amazing!"  But it's not something I'd choose to do (and I think at this point I wouldn't even if allergies were no longer a concern; I know too much now!).

That said, there are things about myself that I feel self-conscious about.  My weight, for instance.  I was average-sized my whole life, and still felt self-conscious about my body size.  The last couple of years I've gained weight, and I'm working on dealing with that (both accepting myself as-is, and losing a healthy amount in a healthy manner).  If I could cover up this thing I'm self-conscious about easily, with a quick application of something?  Hell yes I would.  But weight isn't as easy to hide as an outbreak.

I also have gray hair, and got it early, like another poster above.  It's been a challenge to accept that (especially since I always got remarks about how young I looked, well into my late twenties being mistakes for a teen).  There comes a point when you'd like to have something in the middle between people thinking you're a child and thinking you're old and gray.  Not that I always know how people see me, and of course it shouldn't always matter...but sometimes it does.  So yeah, I think if there was an easy fix for things I was self-conscious about (and I didn't have allergies to it), I would probably "go there."  As it is, makeup free for me is the way to be!

So I wouldn't be too quick to tell someone "Don't use makeup, no one cares, and your skin will be better for it."  Because some people do care, obviously, and it's not always easy to make big changes, especially if you're self-conscious about something.  Unfortunately for many women, looks DO matter a lot in their lives, whether because of their job and where they work (some people can literally be reprimanded as unprofessional for not wearing makeup and heels), or because they're trying to find a man and feel that will never happen if they show acne scars, etc.

P.S. I'm not always sure if men know when women are wearing makeup.  I've seen too many threads on the internet related to boys complimenting girls on the "no makeup" look they were wearing, when it was simply a more subtle/natural look.  I should probably put myself in the category of not knowing, since again, it's not something I ever learned...  Too many anecdotes of women being complimented for not wearing makeup when they were, etc.  Apparently there's a lot of subtlety to some of it!

P.P.S.  I've thought about trying something like Bare Minerals, but I never knew where to start, or was certain there were absolutely no chemicals involved, and in the end it was easier just to stay as I was.  

P.P.P.S.  Frankly I wish it was as acceptable to go "no shave" as it is to go "no makeup."  If men can grow hair everywhere nature intended and still be socially acceptable, why it is indecent for a women?  Most of us have still got a hell of a lot less of it no matter what you go by.  But unfortunately I don't live in a place where that's socially acceptable.  It's easier to opt out of things where there's no backlash against it.  (And again, that's why I'd never tell someone to stop using makeup.  I don't know what backlash they personally would face!)

I think a lot of what we find attractive or unattractive has to do with whatever the cultural norm is. Pictured below are two men and two women who have undergone scarring that is acceptable and possibly expected, in their cultures. Cultivating a look like this, may be quite shocking to those who haven't seen it before, but perfectly normal amongst the people who do it.

There's a guy that I see on the streets of Victoria sometimes, who has undergone some scarring. He's a very striking looking young man. He appears to be afro-asiatic, I'm guessing from Southern Ethiopia or Somalia. After seeing him several times, it doesn't look shocking to me at all. It just indicates that he is from an entirely different culture, that has different standards of beauty. And some of it isn't necessarily about beauty. In some cultures, a young man will receive a certain mark when he kills a leopard or completes some other milestone that means that he is a man now. There are markings that let others know if someone is married or engaged. There are many other markings that tell of a person's social status.

I remember my mother commenting at one time about how horrible some of this stuff was. Yet here in North America, we have people going to the doctor for liposuction or to have their chins extended or shortened, and the list goes on.

Anything unusual that we do to our appearance, is bound to be observed by others. I think the more extreme cases are meant to send a message. I had a young fellow working for me, who had a tattoo of a dragon on his neck and face. When he was a teenager, he got this to show people that he was a tough guy, and he wanted to look tough. Now that he's approaching 30, he wants to get rid of it, because he feels that it limits him, both socially and professionally.

Makeup can be washed off, so I think the most important issue concerning it, is probably toxicity. Lead oxide and mercury were historically used in makeup. Things have improved since then, but there are constantly news stories warning of problems in that regard.

I think this is encouraging. When even those in the fashion/beauty industry are finding ways to appreciate, support, advocate and enjoy natural beauty, I think that's a good thing.

This vlogger is recommending a few products here, though in a very non-pushy way and she is including alternatives - especially the DIY and natural ones.

Note that some YouTube commenters had concerns about tea tree oil in a diffuser and coconut oil clogging pores for some people, so of course YMMV.

"it's definitely something I recommend for everybody" AAAnndd there she lost her credibility. Some people need to take steps to keep their skin dry, not moisturize it. If you have skin like mine, don't put oil on it!
It's time to start realizing that everybody's body is different and each person needs to find what works best for his/her body.

This black man grew up with a mother with natural hair who wore noticeable makeup on special occasions.
When my sisters wanted to straighten their hair and wear make up, my father objected strenuously.
He put a huge load of cultural guilt on them,that persisted for a long time,maybe to this day.
My mother would occasionally straiten her hair, as a gift to her mother,who thought  an Afro on a woman was anathema.
Later, when her own daughters started dredding her hair,she reacted in the same way her mother had reacted to her Afro...
She got better,but the irony of the situation was thick and heavy😏
My own daughter is only nine,but she is 5' tall and black.
I fear the way society treats girls, brown girls, girls in makeup  as older than they are.
Also, people have been commenting on her beauty since she was a baby,men and women handing us money to go spend on her!
Yeah, I'm terrified. But she is innocent.
So we let her play with make-up.
But we have made it clear that other people wear makeup to look like her. To have clear skin, rosy cheeks, long lashes etc.
She's cool with that🤗
Meanwhile I  struggle to quench my bias against hair weaves and false eyelashes.
My own wife has called me out,noting I always complement her eyes more when she has on a little eyeliner.😶
Getting some idea of who your dealing with by how they look is necessary. We recognize bees,with their dangers and potential by how they look.
Of course,  there are many species that imitate the bee, to prey on them or to borrow  their fearsome reputations.
I wore a button down shurt and tie for work till I was 30.
It wasn't who I was, but it was adaptive.
I have a collection of extremely impractical hats from fez to fedora. I don't wear them anymore, but once I was notorious for my crazy headwear.
I hate cigarette smoke, but I used to dig women who smoked,had tattoos, dyed  hair and a get back stare.
Hell, I married a woman like this,and got her to stop smoking! I want to keep her forever, so like some women attracted to a guy on a motorcycle, I got her to curb her risky behavior,for the sake of us.

What you wear or do in a given moment is a data point, not a portrait.  Make up is part of that.

As  an aside, if you are buying makeup for me, make mine MAC. I don't think it's all that natural, but its very high quality otherwise.

Jotham Bessey wrote:"it's definitely something I recommend for everybody" AAAnndd there she lost her credibility. Some people need to take steps to keep their skin dry, not moisturize it. If you have skin like mine, don't put oil on it!
It's time to start realizing that everybody's body is different and each person needs to find what works best for his/her body.

Well, I agree that Valeria is not exactly a natural dermatologist, though having had a fair bit of greasy skin myself, I have found oils that actually help dry it, ironically enough. Castor oil has helped me in the past, without blocking pores. Though what helped me reduce the grease even more than that was to stop using soap. I think my body was cranking out excess oil as protection against the constant stripping action of the soap! My skin is far less greasy now.

Sooo, I didn't post Valeria's video as the be-all, end-all path to healthy skin and beauty without makeup. Of course, there are MANY other variations and differences in what works best for different folks' skin. I posted this video as what I thought was a lovely example of how a model in the fashion industry finds going without makeup to be a happier, healthier, more self-accepting way to be. I thought that was cool.

William, I hear you on the struggles with a gorgeous young, innocent daughter who appears older than she is. Been there. And those are some interesting differences between what hair treatments or styles have been seen as objectionable by the generation before. I just went with asymmetrical hair in the '80's, which wasn't a big deal back then and I didn't catch any real grief over doing it.

As Dale pointed out about cultural norms of beauty, we humans have been using our bodies for art and expression and examples of our culture for a long, long, time.

So I'm not opposed to others using makeup. I'm simply very happy I don't bother with it because it saves me time, money and is less wear-and-tear on my skin. Plus, I like that anything I do put on my skin (to moisturize, heal something, etc.) is an oil or herbal or other concoction that I would be totally comfortable eating, that's how healthy and natural it is.

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:  Though what helped me reduce the grease even more than that was to stop using soap. I think my body was cranking out excess oil as protection against the constant stripping action of the soap! My skin is far less greasy now.

Hear, hear!  Soap is over rated.  (BTW, acne is not the result of too much oil.  Acne is when your pores get clogged, and it's sebum, not oil.)  I think many people would be surprised with how nice their skin could become if they simply washed with water and a rough cloth and applied a little coconut oil if that treatment left them feeling dry.  

When I was in high school, people told me I needed to remove the oil from my face, and I tried and tried.  There was this stuff called Sea Breeze - I bought it by the gallon!  The more I stripped off oil, the more oil my skin produced.

Julia Winter wrote:When I was in high school, people told me I needed to remove the oil from my face, and I tried and tried.  There was this stuff called Sea Breeze - I bought it by the gallon!  The more I stripped off oil, the more oil my skin produced.

In the years when I was at highschool I was so lucky to meet someone who told me just te opposite. He told me exactly what you're telling too: do NOT wash with soap, nor use any product to put on your face, only wash with water! Because this young man looked very good, I was sure he was right. So I did like him, never washed with soap anymore. I can assure you, after some 44 years of experience: it's true. I'm in my sixties now and people compliment me on my healthy looks. Of course it is not only what you use to wash, it's also what you eat, and probably where you live (clean air).

Edit / added: sorry, I found out I reacted in this thread about a year ago too. I wasn't aware it was the same thread