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Video: "There is no obesity crisis "

 
pollinator
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A Walton
The author of the video lives in the USA

David
 
pollinator
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Dan Boone wrote:...I don't think it's actually as simple as you imagine.  



Dan, by "simple", I don't mean "easy".  I have made the point in other discussions (about permaculture), that things that are simple are often NOT easy.  I don't mean to downplay the many factors that make long-term weight loss hard.  I am frustrated by an industry that preys on people, lies to them, and tells them that the answer is just around the corner with the new diet book or food that just hit the market, or that gives people all sorts of reasons that they should just give up, when the health ramifications of obesity are clear.  I've read the statistics about long-term weight loss for morbidly obese people, and as you said, the statistics aren't good.  I choose to believe it can be done.  People have done it, and will do it.  I don't believe there is some magic shortcut that makes it easy.
 
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I may not have tried it "all", bit I have tried a lot. Try as I might, I cannot find a diet or exercise program that can equal the simple farm life of my great grandparents.  They grew most of their own food, did shares at the grist mill, raised hogs and cattle.... cooked with lard, cured their own meat...made their own alcoholic beverages and cured their own tobacco...  worked in the sun... rarely if ever went to doctors... ate big, heavy meals, etc.  They lived in southeastern NC on farms... they worked hard in the heat and cold.  One couple lived to 96 and 94 and had many children.  The other lived to 75 and 104... and that great grandfather re-married at the age of 80, to a 40 year old  woman, and had another son.   That great grandmother had a history of breast cancer in her family, and fell to that.  Non were heavy, none were skinny.  None took medication regularly, followed "diets', needed home health or nursing homes.... They were adults in their teens.  They worked hard.  They ate better than 90% of folks these days, in terms of both taste and nutrition - good, high protein, high fat, fresh vegetables, lot of wild foods... way more variety than folks these days.  Between the couples, they had about two dozen children, who were raised... actively raised... and became good, solid people.  My 96 year old grandfather was a hog farmer and a bee keeper, was half French and walked a fine line between country ham and charcuterie. The way they lived is the key to a long, healthy life... but how many will actually do it?  How many will give up processed foods, fast foods... exclusionist  ideological diets? How many will pay more than $1,000 a year for a gym membership, but never work in the hot, buggy sun and get paid for it?  How many will value home and family and be part of a family that will invest in a community stay nearby and care for family and community? There is a healthier diet, a better way of life and a happier way to live... we find in all traditional peoples, of all cultures and all religions.... but, we think we know better.  Until we abandon that hubris, we are doomed to fads and misery.  Lao Tzu said, "do you think you can change the world?  It cannot be done.  The world is perfect, as leaves of grass."  But it, it could even more succinctly be said, "there is nothing new under the sun," and "forsake not the traditions of your elders."
 
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Stacy Witscher wrote:Dan Boone - I understand, I'm very spoiled here. Sometimes I forget that. On top of all the great markets, we have year round farmer's markets. California grows so much food.



I spent three years living in an apartment with a window that overlooked UN Plaza on Market Street in San Francisco, where (at the time) there was a substantial twice-a-week farmer's market.  A quarter century later and I sometimes still have daydreams about all that lovely produce!  In fact, I think it was my exposure to picked-yesterday sun-ripened tomatoes at that market that most explains why I do any gardening now -- the sheer impossibility of buying a decent tomato where I live for any price is what got me started.  
 
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Wj Carroll wrote: One couple lived to 96 and 94 and had many children.  The other lived to 75 and 104



I'm not convinced we can necessarily look to our long-living relatives to learn about healthy diets and lifestyles.  My grandmother lived to 102 and ate food from the store her entire life, with quite a lot of boozing as a Navy officer's wife.  My husband's mom lived to 79 smoking like a chimney and eating store food.
 
Wj Carroll
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Or, it could be that your genes do not pre-dispose you to cancer.... That is really good info for you.  In my family, everyone who did not fall as a casualty of war lived to a ripe, old age on the farm.... unless they had a particular form of asthma, a particular heart defect, a sensitivity to heat stroke, or a particular form of cancer.  Once later generations left the farm, they began dying in their 60s and 70s.  I have several generations of documented information to guide my life choices.  I can look back many generations..  which is very fortunate.  I'm really lucky to have come from a family with such detailed documentation... and I can pretty much figure out what is most likely to kill me and how to live as long as possible... baring anything unforeseen.  Nothing is guaranteed.  But, I can definitely show that my farming ancestors had longer, healthier lives than most of my ancestors who found other lifestyles.
 
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Kate Muller wrote:Fruits and grains are easy ones to figure out they have sugars in them and can cause inflation issues.  What surprised me was the veggies and nuts that are very common in paleo recipes.  

Oligosaccrides are found in garlic bulbs, onion bulbs, wheat, beetroot, almonds, cashews, pistachios, and beans,  

Mushrooms are both high in oligosaccharide and polysaccharide which makes me sadder than the garlic and onions.  

Cauliflower and  sweet potato are high in polysaccharides.  

Then there are the hidden additives that an elimination  diet  really helps you find.  I had no idea that dextrose and locust bean gum are some of the worst foods for me to eat and they are in so many foods.  



I don't mean to complicate things for you; however, I feel compelled to share one insight. What if foods that cause symptoms are the foods that prompt your body to eliminate toxins / get healthier. Avoiding them would reduce symptoms, but in the long run will it make you healthier?
 
Gail Gardner
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Wj Carroll wrote:Once later generations left the farm, they began dying in their 60s and 70s... But, I can definitely show that my farming ancestors had longer, healthier lives than most of my ancestors who found other lifestyles.



I have observed this exact thing myself. I had a friend who did home nursing. Her patients in their 80s and 90s would move in with one of their children who were in the 50s and 60s, only to have the child die.

What people who are healthy and mentally sharp into their 70s, 80s, 90s or older have in common is two things: 1) Ate food grown on a farm 2) Avoid doctors and do not take prescriptions.

The first prescription is the downhill slide into more and more of them and bad health.  For me, mercury fillings placed when I was 10 on top of malnutrition is what caused all my health issues. Even after 3.5 years of eating out only a couple of times a year, only eating organic mostly vegetarian with some grass-fed, organic bison and poultry, I am still detoxing.

Some symptoms are completely gone (like severe inability to stand cold weather). Others come and go (insomnia, being a night owl). But digestion issues and carrying more weight than I used to are still gradually improving.

It is a mistake to assume that all people who are not at their optimum weight are eating too much or exercising too little. Digestion and health are far more complicated than that and we should not be so quick to judge those who are not as thin as they would like.

Yes, some people overeat. And many people eat that crap they sell in grocery stores that I don't even consider food anymore. But not everyone who is overweight got that way by being lazy or gluttonous. Some had injuries; others have health issues.

Even those whose weight is all their fault will not get better by being mistreated or judged. This is a great movie based on a true story about a thin girl who was a jock who judged her mom and brother for their weight until she did a documentary and found out just how badly overweight people are treated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w3IeHaDU4Q  

That movie is a good way to get some perspective on the other side of the fence. Her Mom also found out how her daughter felt about the risks she was taking with her health by being overweight.
 
gardener
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I'm going to suggest that some of the evidence that says the simple farm life leads to health and longevity is self selecting.
Let me illustrate with a true story: my great grandmother lived into her 90s. She bore 22 children in her time.
She was sharp and active till the end.
She outlived her parents,siblings and all her children,all if whom had had the same upbringing as her.
That was as pre ww2 farmers.
Many of her children didn't make it past infancy.
A few more did not make it into adulthood.
Some of her grandchildren didn't come to term because her daughter in law, my grandmother, was drinking raw milk,which happened to carry a pathogen.
A doctor figured this out. My Uncle Larry was subsequently carried to term.

If one wants to know the  efficacy of a way of doing something, be it eating or anything else,  it's my opinion that one should count both the successes and the failures.

Despite all the flaws in modern  culture , life expectancies and leisure time are up .
 
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Gail Gardner wrote:

Kate Muller wrote:Fruits and grains are easy ones to figure out they have sugars in them and can cause inflation issues.  What surprised me was the veggies and nuts that are very common in paleo recipes.  

Oligosaccrides are found in garlic bulbs, onion bulbs, wheat, beetroot, almonds, cashews, pistachios, and beans,  

Mushrooms are both high in oligosaccharide and polysaccharide which makes me sadder than the garlic and onions.  

Cauliflower and  sweet potato are high in polysaccharides.  

Then there are the hidden additives that an elimination  diet  really helps you find.  I had no idea that dextrose and locust bean gum are some of the worst foods for me to eat and they are in so many foods.  



I don't mean to complicate things for you; however, I feel compelled to share one insight. What if foods that cause symptoms are the foods that prompt your body to eliminate toxins / get healthier. Avoiding them would reduce symptoms, but in the long run will it make you healthier?



You would think it would except when I eat these foods I screw up my digestive system so that I am not absorbing the nutrients, my pain levels shoot up, along with spending way too much time in the bathroom....  Eating the wrong foods can make me lose days of my limited productivity so it is not worth it.   My problem with my digestive system is a mechanical one not a gut flora one.

What I have done to compensate for not eating these awesome foods is expand the range of foods I can comfortably eat.  I grow and eat a much wider range of veggies than most of my friends. I grow a wide color variety of the fruits and veggies I can eat. I also source my meats from local farms that pasture raise their animals, have my own laying hens, and added more organ meats to my diet and most of it coming local farms where I know the farmers and their farming practices.  Since I am no longer eating a SAD I actually eat a wide range of foods than I every have and they are all in a much less processed form too.  
 
Wj Carroll
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That is of course, a good point, William Bronson.  But, it brings to mind another question....  I have often wondered how much of our statistics showing that we are living longer, may be skewed by lower rates of infant mortality, early childhood death from polio and such and not having had major epidemics of flu and such in a long time.   I recall someone posing this one time and comparing it to grades in school..... if you make 3 As on 3 exams, but totally miss one, there is no way you will end up with a 4.0.  That zero weights heavily.  If you average out the mortality of the family members you mentioned, it would appear that their lifespan was quite low.  That does not negate, or even effect, the longevity of those who survived into adulthood.  One has to wonder if the medical advances that lowered infant and childhood mortality rates were in place during her lifetime, if the average lifespan would not have been much, much longer.  I also wonder, "to what end"... how many who are living longer live just to lie in a bed in a nursing home, abandoned by family, abused by "care givers", lives extended just to keep insurance and medicare dollars flowing in to a facility... not that they would prefer an earlier death, but it seems that once one enters the system, they very little choice in the matter.  Many people used at die at home, of natural causes, surrounded by family.  But, that is more just something I think about - not something for which I am advocating.

As for leisure, I also wonder about those statistics.  Obviously, they do not include farmers only.  From what I have read, the factory workers of the early 1900s had fairly miserable lives - true "wage slaves".  The farmers in my family's community hunted, fished and trapped often, both for leisure and as a source of food and income.  They went to church on Sundays and did not work at all that day.  It is very hot in eastern NC, so the men rose before dawn, took long periods to eat, rest and socialize in the shade in the heat of the day, an worked a few more hours in the evenings.  That would add up to about an 8 hour day, maybe more.  The women worked within the home, and perhaps worked even harder - in that regard, modern conveniences and public education, likely did provide more leisure time.  However, there were also multiple generations living in the home to help with kids and chores.... and a lot of talking, singing, laughing and gossiping.  Entire families worked together during harvest, and those were times of intense work.  But they were followed by fairly long family vacations.  There were many community get -togethers... corn shuckings, community hog butchering.... big potluck dinners with music, dancing and drink, apple pressings, county fairs, state fares, community picnics, lodge meetings, fraternal organizations, political meetings, etc.  They had more parades.  Christmas lasted 12 days and Easter a week.  There were religious "camp meetings", revivals and gospel singings.  And, oh the family reunions!  I recall, when I was little, being dragged to a different side of the family's family reunion, it seemed like, every week and eating until I was almost sick! They were also not poor, comparatively, and several had hunting camps on the lakes and rivers, little cottages at the beach and all had boats.  Community and school baseball was very popular and competitive.  Most of them played musical instruments, told stories, read (at least) the Bible and the newspaper every day, and took long hours to "visit" with friends and family.  They did, indeed work hard and life was not idyllic.... certainly romanticized in the stories they told me.  But, what they told me of their lives was not unlike Fukuoka's reminiscences regarding pre-modern farming in Japan.  In both cases, they owned their own land, had essentially no debt and perhaps a little more freedom to do certain things..... less to do things most modern folks do now... which may cause some modern folks to look at the lives of their ancestors as primitive and harsh, instead of seeing the balance,
 
Kate Muller
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Wj Carroll wrote:That is of course, a good point, William Bronson.  But, it brings to mind another question....  I have often wondered how much of our statistics showing that we are living longer, may be skewed by lower rates of infant mortality, early childhood death from polio and such and not having had major epidemics of flu and such in a long time.  



The statistics may also be skewed by all the late in life medical intervention that keeps people going but is invasive, expensive and forces people to live a life with serve reductions in mobility while keeping them alive.  
 
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I listened to an excellent show on CBC Radio yesterday. They had a guy on who studies what makes people eat the amount they do and the types of food that they do. I will go looking for it later.

Here are a few of the findings. Plate color and size affects the amount that people eat. People tend to make poor food choices when they eat alone. When eating in a large group people will often go into a feast mode, and consume much more than they would have in a small group. Drinking ice-cold water or soft drinks, numbs the taste buds, and people use more salt and sugar to compensate. He used an example of cold Cola, versus warm. The cold drink is refreshing. Let that same drink warm up, and you see just how unbearably sweet it is. I have found the same, with melted ice cream.
 
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Todd Parr wrote:

Kate Muller wrote:

Todd Parr wrote:Kate, I'm sorry to hear about your health problems.  I can't imagine what you must be going through dealing with that.  It sounds horrible.  It does sound like you have your diet on the right track from an "eating healthy" perspective.  It sounds much like the paleo diet, and I feel better when I eat that way than anything else I have tried.  I hope it helps with your issues.  It has certainly helped many people with a wide range of conditions.  I disagree with this statement:  "The frustrating thing about all of this is there is no one size fits all option for people to prevent or correct excess weight."  The one size fits all option for everyone is eating less calories than you burn in a day, however many that may be.  If a person has joint/mobility issues, the number of calories burned in a day will necessarily be lower than a person that is more active, but lowering calories to below maintenance levels will always result in weight loss.  It has to.  To maintain a certain size it is necessary to eat a certain number of calories.  If a person eats less calories than that, they will lose weight.  For all the smoke and mirrors that the "diet gurus" throw at you about nutrient partitioning, insulin resistance, etc. to sell the latest fad diet they concocted, that rule will never change.  Good luck on your journey.  I hope you find health.



Thank you.  I tried paleo and didn't feel better and didn't lose weight.  It wasn't controlling my low blood sugar swings or my joint pain.  It didn't find relief till I did a full blown elimination diet and added foods back in one at a time to see what did and didn't work for me.   The snowflake that I am found that  oligosaccharides, polysaccharies, and lactose are really big problems for me and they are in so many foods and food additives.



Can you tell me specifically what paleo foods gave you problems (or that you suspect may have)?  I have a person very close to me that is struggling with digestive issues and even with the paleo diet she has some problems.  Following the "strictest" paleo diet, Whole 30, works great for me, but if some of the foods on it contain the components you mentioned, that may be worth looking in to.


I personally have problems with eggs and nuts and in order de rid myself of allergies and eczema I had to eliminate those. I have followed the Autoimmune Paleo protocol and that did rid me of 99% of my issues - even so I had to go VERY low carb - i.e. Keto w. Fasting to get rid of the last eczema/allergies and start to loose weight (even so it is painstakingly slow). The calories in/calories out doesn't always count - I eat less and I eat healthier than most people, I walk a lot I do yoga every day and I am still 25kg overweight. The problem for me is that my allergies affect my metabolism, my nutrient absorbtion etc (E.g. My food of has to be extremely nutrient dense. Otherwise I am hungry all the time). I currently eat something that looks like that Wahl's protocol (Paleo Plus) but without the seeds and nuts.

But I will concur that most fat people are not healthy... I am not healthy - my diet might be, my lifestyle might be, but I have massive inflammation in my body and if I am not 100% on my diet all the time, I get sick, I get tired - I do t function. It saddens me to know that most people who are overweight probably have some of the same issues I have - but the general advice they get from Doctors and dieticians is just.not.helping them. It angers me when I see dieticians scoff at the paleo diet, because a lot of people would be helped by that...
 
Dale Hodgins
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I make poor food choices when I'm sitting in front of the television, with one particular friend who makes poor food choices. After having a perfectly adequate supper, we may watch two movies. Halfway through the first, a bag of chips will come out, then it gets paused and yogurt with berries comes out, then tea. Move on to the next movie. I am offered ice cream or chocolate or both, then some salad or some more chips. It always continues like this until the last movie ends at 11 p.m. or so. Not all of the food is inherently bad stuff, but we are feeding constantly from suppertime until after 11. This doesn't seem to affect my weight, but it certainly affects my friend. I only do this while visiting there. She does it much more regularly. So, I guess The Company You Keep can also affect food choices

I spend some time alone in the car. This happens when I'm driving of course and also if I decide to use the internet at some pleasant location. Therefore, it's important for me to not have a bag of chips and pop in the car. If I had those things, I would certainly eat them. Right now, my car contains some bananas, Brazil nuts and some goumi berries. If I had junk food, I would consume some of it right now.

Luckily, I don't feel drawn to Denny's, McDonald's, Taco Bell or any of the other junk food places along the way. Perhaps it's because I'm too cheap. I know some people who can't drive by those places without feeling an overwhelming desire, to eat.
 
Kate Muller
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Dawn Hoff wrote:

But I will concur that most fat people are not healthy... I am not healthy - my diet might be, my lifestyle might be, but I have massive inflammation in my body and if I am not 100% on my diet all the time, I get sick, I get tired - I do t function. It saddens me to know that most people who are overweight probably have some of the same issues I have - but the general advice they get from Doctors and dieticians is just.not.helping them. It angers me when I see dieticians scoff at the paleo diet, because a lot of people would be helped by that...



I totally understand I will never be healthy either no matter what I do but I won't give up trying.

 
Dawn Hoff
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Dan Boone wrote:

Todd Parr wrote:The answer is always the same, unless you truly have a medical condition like Kate's.  Take in less calories than you use in a day.  How you arrive there is different of course.  Some people may choose to eat less, to work out more, to switch from pizza to vegetables,... but regardless of how you do it, the answer is the same.

It is important to note that what foods you eat make an enormous difference in your health, especially if you have specific food allergies or sensitivities, or some other underlying medical condition.  If your only concern is to lose weight though, less calories is the answer.  Google "twinkie diet" if you have trouble believing that.  A nutrition professor went on a diet of what can only be described (at least in my mind) of shit food, and lost 27lbs in 2 months.  Twinkies, Dorito's and other assorted garbage, but he kept his calories below maintenance.  It's as simple as that.



As simple as that.

Carl von Clausewitz, the famous military strategist, is often quoted as saying something like "War is very simple.  But in war, the simplest things are very difficult."

Anybody who does not think this is a war has never been obese.

Todd, I don't fundamentally disagree with you, and I do believe you're a sympathetic voice in this discussion, but speaking as an obese person I don't think it's actually as simple as you imagine.  I live in Walmart land and you're not wrong about the "heft" of the problem -- plus I live in a community with a lot of resulting diabetes and amputations, so large people with missing limbs on battery chairs are a frequent sight when I'm shopping.  It's a problem all right.

One thing that undermines the simplicity is that it's not *quite* as simple as the thermodynamics would suggest.  Virtually everybody eats more calories than they burn or store, leaving some "fudge factor" for undigested calories that pass.  It's common for obese people to discover that they have to reduce calories down to concentration-camp starvation levels before meaningful weight loss is achieved, because, for whatever reason, our bodies are greedier about storing all the calories that come into range.   This is not an "excuse" but it is a thing that makes the simple thermodynamics less simple.  

Another thing is that, statistically speaking, long-term weight loss for morbidly obese people is impossible.  As in, it "simply" doesn't happen.  It does not appear in the statistics in meaningful numbers.  Everybody knows somebody whose sister lost 100 pounds a year ago and looks wonderful.  Hell, I lost 200 pounds a few years back by switching to plant foods and I've kept about half of it off myself, with substantial accompanying health benefits, but...  The statistics do not lie.  Long term weight loss does not happen in statistically significant amounts for morbidly obese people.  There's something going on there, something profoundly not-simple.  Even if the thermodynamics are simple, something more complicated on the psychology/behavior side is undermining that simplicity.  I'm philosophically committed to the notion of free will, but the dominant thinking among philosophers is doubtful about it these days, and the biologists who study human nutrition don't offer a lot more hope.  

Does that mean it's all pointless and an obese person shouldn't try to eat smarter/better/less?  Of course not.  But it does mean that, in my opinion, that word "simple" is carrying a lot of freight when we see it in these discussions.


If healthy mice are given a fecal transplant of fat mice bacteria after a round of anti-biotics, they will gain weight on /exactly the same diet/. Several of my friends have looked at me the last year and asked "how is it that you are still not loosing weight?" Because my diet is SO healthy (and no I don't cheat when they are not there). My husband looses too much weight when we follow a diet that makes me not sick - and he never exercise.... ever. I can Ben on "the perfect weight loss diet" and loose maybe half a kilo a week - go to a birthday party and "cheat", by having *one* piece of cake and gain 2-3 kgs... which will then take me 4-6 weeks to loose. I know people who have been on a 1000kcal/day going to the gym several times a week, and still not loose weight - their dieticians accused them of lying. Maybe that professor hadn't had his metabolism wrecked. OTOH I have also heard of people switching to a paleo diet and eating closer to 3000 kcal/day and loosing weight (maybe because intolerances and allergies aren't triggered?).

The fatigue I experience when I eat what the health authorities say is a healthy diet is also hard to battle - it makes excersise unfathomable, because my muscles feels
Like they are made out of lead.

Is isn't just calories in/calories out - and when people keep repeating that, they are setting people up for failure. I actually now have dietician friends who will concur that it is about nutrients and that one of the reasons that many fat people overeating is because their cells are starving for nutrients. If you feed them those nutrients they will not be hungry all the time. These same dieticians will also agree with the lady in the video - if you eat a healthy diet (we may not agree on what that is except it contains a lot of greens), and excersise - then the weight is no that importnant. But I still see my excess weight as a symptom of something being out of balance.
 
William Bronson
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I've mentioned this somewhere else on the forums, but it seems relevant here: for most of human history the ability to get more work /stored fat out of a given amount of calories has been an evolutionary advantage.
We see thus come up when talking about how much food a guard dog consumes. Some breeds consume less ,while doing the same work and maintain the similar body mass.

It's only in today's American food system where calories are abundant and nutritionally lacking that needing huge amounts of food to maintain a slender frame,is considered a good thing.


I once was a 6' tall,190 pound,heavily muscled young man,with little fat on me. My doctor told me I was still overweight. At that time,I could shoulder heavy loads and RUN up stairs with them,and do pullups until I got bored.
I knew that doctor was wrong.
Nowadays,my gut gets in the way of doing things once has no trouble doing. My muscles are underpowered for my size. I would sooner weight the 240 i do now and be stronger,than be 190 again but still weak

 
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William Bronson wrote: I've mentioned this somewhere else on the forums, but it seems relevant here: for most of human history the ability to get more work /stored fat out of a given amount of calories has been an evolutionary advantage.
We see thus come up when talking about how much food a guard dog consumes. Some breeds consume less ,while doing the same work and maintain the similar body mass.

It's only in today's American food system where calories are abundant and nutritionally lacking that needing huge amounts of food to maintain a slender frame,is considered a good thing.


I once was a 6' tall,190 pound,heavily muscled young man,with little fat on me. My doctor told me I was still overweight. At that time,I could shoulder heavy loads and RUN up stairs with them,and do pullups until I got bored.
I knew that doctor was wrong.
Nowadays,my gut gets in the way of doing things once has no trouble doing. My muscles are underpowered for my size. I would sooner weight the 240 i do now and be stronger,than be 190 again but still weak



It seems like there is a lot of confusion about weight vs fat, BMI, and all this other stuff.  To gain a pound of fat, it takes 3500 calories above the amount that you need to maintain your weight.  If you have digestive issues, you can utilize less of the calories.  You can't use more calories than there are in the food obviously.  If you are like Dawn and gain 6 lbs from a piece of cake, it is a problem with inflammation or water or something else.  No one can gain 6 lbs of FAT from a piece of cake unless that cake has 23,000+ calories in it.  Calories can't be created from nothing, and neither can fat.  It also takes a calorie deficit of 3500 to lose weight, however you get there.  As far as people eating 1000 cal a day and working out and not losing weight, I'm with their dieticians on this one.  If you put people that are truly enormously overweight on a 1200-1800 calorie a day diet, even if they are bed-ridden, they lose very, very quickly, to the tune of 50 or more lbs a month.

If your doctor told you you were overweight at a muscular 190lbs and 6' tall, he was foolish.  BMI is also not a good system.  Bodyfat % is the only thing that actually matters, but it is more inconvenient than just a chart that has height vs weight.
 
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Dawn Hoff wrote:My husband looses too much weight when we follow a diet that makes me not sick - and he never exercise.... ever. I can Ben on "the perfect weight loss diet" and loose maybe half a kilo a week -



Men will lose more weight generally speaking on the same diet because their muscle mass is higher, so they burn more calories.

Half a kilo a week of weight loss is great.  That's more than a lb a week, so that means you have a calorie deficit of more than 3500 calories a week.  That should be applauded.  That also adds up to 52 lbs a year weight loss.  I think that's awesome and you should be proud of it.
 
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Todd Parr wrote:

Dawn Hoff wrote:My husband looses too much weight when we follow a diet that makes me not sick - and he never exercise.... ever. I can Ben on "the perfect weight loss diet" and loose maybe half a kilo a week -



Men will lose more weight generally speaking on the same diet because their muscle mass is higher, so they burn more calories.

Half a kilo a week of weight loss is great.  That's more than a lb a week, so that means you have a calorie deficit of more than 3500 calories a week.  That should be applauded.  That also adds up to 52 lbs a year weight loss.  I think that's awesome and you should be proud of it.


Problem is that cheating once I gain all and more back, and it then takes 4-6 weeks to loose it again. I can't even go to a birthday party once a month and have what is served there. I have to bring my own food, I have to say no thank you to cake. Never being able to ever step outside the boundaries of the diet is very restrictive, most dieticians would say that it is orthorectic, but that is how strict I have to be to loose weight. And no I don't test positive on an IgE test, so most Doctors would also say that I am not allergic. Most Doctors and Dieticians would also say that the amount of carbs I eat is dangerously low, but if I change it my eczema flares up. Honestly I do believe that there is much about human biology and hormones etc. that we do not yet understand.

The fact that mice gain weight (yes fat weight, not just water) simply from having a different gut flora indicates that there is more to the equation that calories in/calories out.
 
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Dawn Hoff wrote:
Never being able to ever step outside the boundaries of the diet is very restrictive, most dieticians would say that it is orthorectic, but that is how strict I have to be to loose weight. And no I don't test positive on an IgE test, so most Doctors would also say that I am not allergic. Most Doctors and Dieticians would also say that the amount of carbs I eat is dangerously low, but if I change it my eczema flares up. Honestly I do believe that there is much about human biology and hormones etc. that we do not yet understand.

The fact that mice gain weight (yes fat weight, not just water) simply from having a different gut flora indicates that there is more to the equation that calories in/calories out.



I feel for you.  It would be very hard for anyone to basically go forever without "slipping up".  I couldn't do it, and realistically, I don't know if anyone could.  I also have eczema and skin issues, and I haven't figured mine out yet.  It can be pretty miserable, and the strictest version of the paleo diet is probably my next step to see if that improves it.   Psoriasis is a very big problem in my family as well.  I hope you understand that I am not in any way trying to downplay the issues you are having.

My own thoughts on the study with the mice is that it makes perfect sense to me that if you give the mice the gut flora from mice that are better at digesting food, the mice will gain weight.  They are digesting more calories than they did before from the same amount of food.  Let's say for instance my maintenance number of calories is 2000 per day.  If I have impaired digestion and I eat, say, 3000 calories a day, but I can only process 2000 of them, it makes sense to me that if you improve my digestion, but give me the same amount of food, now I may be processing 2900 calories, and since that is over my maintenance amount, I will gain weight.  No matter how much my health and digestion improves, I can't turn 1500 calories into 3000 however.
 
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Todd Parr wrote:

Dawn Hoff wrote:
Never being able to ever step outside the boundaries of the diet is very restrictive, most dieticians would say that it is orthorectic, but that is how strict I have to be to loose weight. And no I don't test positive on an IgE test, so most Doctors would also say that I am not allergic. Most Doctors and Dieticians would also say that the amount of carbs I eat is dangerously low, but if I change it my eczema flares up. Honestly I do believe that there is much about human biology and hormones etc. that we do not yet understand.

The fact that mice gain weight (yes fat weight, not just water) simply from having a different gut flora indicates that there is more to the equation that calories in/calories out.



I feel for you.  It would be very hard for anyone to basically go forever without "slipping up".  I couldn't do it, and realistically, I don't know if anyone could.  I also have eczema and skin issues, and I haven't figured mine out yet.  It can be pretty miserable, and the strictest version of the paleo diet is probably my next step to see if that improves it.   Psoriasis is a very big problem in my family as well.  I hope you understand that I am not in any way trying to downplay the issues you are having.

My own thoughts on the study with the mice is that it makes perfect sense to me that if you give the mice the gut flora from mice that are better at digesting food, the mice will gain weight.  They are digesting more calories than they did before from the same amount of food.  Let's say for instance my maintenance number of calories is 2000 per day.  If I have impaired digestion and I eat, say, 3000 calories a day, but I can only process 2000 of them, it makes sense to me that if you improve my digestion, but give me the same amount of food, now I may be processing 2900 calories, and since that is over my maintenance amount, I will gain weight.  No matter how much my health and digestion improves, I can't turn 1500 calories into 3000 however.


I agree with that. But the problem is that there is more to it right? How does your metabolism work? And I honestly don't believe that I have a better digestive system than my husband (eg.) - why? Because I am the one who wakes up with stomach aches if so eat gluten, I am the one who will start sneezing if I have just a tiny bit of sugar - that is not an "effective digestive tract". Feeling heavy and sluggish and not having the energy to play with my kids does not seem like something that would be beneficial for a Paleolithic woman... so yes I might be "getting more bang for my buck" calorie wise, but it doesn't covert itself into engerfu and productiveness - it converts i to pain and brain fog.

And this is not actually an attempt to complain. I  grateful that I have found a way to avoid all of these symptoms, I am happy that I can choose to be healthy. What I am sad for now is the people I see who haven't discovered how to hack their diet to find their best health, and who feel like it is hopeless to even try, because the advice they get from the professional healthcare system makes them tired and sluggish and hungry and still not loose weight.
 
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Dawn Hoff,

I apologize if you have already answered this... I am trying to keep read up on this thread, but it is rather active.  Are you consuming many naturally fermented foods and beverages, and avoiding unnecessary antibiotics?  The standard modern diet and antibiotics seriously disrupt our gut health.  I have had severe asthma most of my life - the kind that kills.  Once I began drinking about a pint each of water kefir and kombucha daily, may asthma went away.  That is a far better result than any medication.  I have spoken with others who incorporated these, and/or milk kefir, fermented pickles, sauerkraut, kimchi, etc, into their diets and no longer experience symptoms of lactose intolerance or gluten intolerance.  Others have reported improved nasal allergies, auto-immune conditions, diabetes and much more.  I, and all others with whom I have spoken, also experienced significant fat loss and better digestive health.  It also helps prevent or combat food poisoning and all bacterial infections.  Sandor Katz, who is the author of two of the best books on fermentation on the market today (Bill Mollison's is hard to find and cost a fortune, btw), has lived with AIDS for at least 20 years, and credits his health and survival to fermented foods and beverages.
 
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Dawn Hoff wrote:
I agree with that. But the problem is that there is more to it right? How does your metabolism work? And I honestly don't believe that I have a better digestive system than my husband (eg.) - why? Because I am the one who wakes up with stomach aches if so eat gluten, I am the one who will start sneezing if I have just a tiny bit of sugar - that is not an "effective digestive tract". Feeling heavy and sluggish and not having the energy to play with my kids does not seem like something that would be beneficial for a Paleolithic woman... so yes I might be "getting more bang for my buck" calorie wise, but it doesn't covert itself into engerfu and productiveness - it converts i to pain and brain fog.

And this is not actually an attempt to complain. I  grateful that I have found a way to avoid all of these symptoms, I am happy that I can choose to be healthy. What I am sad for now is the people I see who haven't discovered how to hack their diet to find their best health, and who feel like it is hopeless to even try, because the advice they get from the professional healthcare system makes them tired and sluggish and hungry and still not loose weight.



Clearly you have actual issues going on that he doesn't have, and anything I can put out there is just a guess.  It sounds like you have found the best solutions for yourself, and I'm very glad for you that you have come as far as you have.  I would say your situation is vastly different than most people that are struggling with obesity.
 
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Todd Parr wrote:

Dawn Hoff wrote:
I agree with that. But the problem is that there is more to it right? How does your metabolism work? And I honestly don't believe that I have a better digestive system than my husband (eg.) - why? Because I am the one who wakes up with stomach aches if so eat gluten, I am the one who will start sneezing if I have just a tiny bit of sugar - that is not an "effective digestive tract". Feeling heavy and sluggish and not having the energy to play with my kids does not seem like something that would be beneficial for a Paleolithic woman... so yes I might be "getting more bang for my buck" calorie wise, but it doesn't covert itself into engerfu and productiveness - it converts i to pain and brain fog.

And this is not actually an attempt to complain. I  grateful that I have found a way to avoid all of these symptoms, I am happy that I can choose to be healthy. What I am sad for now is the people I see who haven't discovered how to hack their diet to find their best health, and who feel like it is hopeless to even try, because the advice they get from the professional healthcare system makes them tired and sluggish and hungry and still not loose weight.



Clearly you have actual issues going on that he doesn't have, and anything I can put out there is just a guess.  It sounds like you have found the best solutions for yourself, and I'm very glad for you that you have come as far as you have.  I would say your situation is vastly different than most people that are struggling with obesity.


My point is that's you don't actually know. I'm not saying that many obese people don't eat healthy foods - but more that since many of them might have as many struggles as I do, and simply give up. I really do believe that the diet recommended by the health "authorities" today is inflammatory to many many people.
 
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Dawn Hoff wrote:
My point is that's you don't actually know. I'm not saying that many obese people don't eat healthy foods - but more that since many of them might have as many struggles as I do, and simply give up. I really do believe that the diet recommended by the health "authorities" today is inflammatory to many many people.



No argument from me that I "don't actually know" what issues you have or the solutions, but that is straying pretty far from the original topic, which is that there is no obesity crisis according to the person that made the video, and my opinion is that that is absolutely false, and is very, very easily proven wrong.  I'm also of the opinion that there is no doubt that eating less calories than you burn causes people to lose fat 100% of the time, and eating more calories than you burn causes a person to gain fat, 100% of the time.  Which foods make which people healthy and which foods cause issues for people is a much, much bigger discussion and I don't think we will have all those answers for a long time, if ever.
 
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Dawn Hoff wrote:

Todd Parr wrote:

Dawn Hoff wrote:
How does your metabolism work?

 

 



THIS is what many aren't considering in this whole calories in and out stuff. I worked with a woman at IBM who had the highest metabolism I ever personally observed. I know others who probably did. We would have a business meeting where they served us a ridiculously huge Eggs Benedict, bacon, sausage, biscuits/gravy, sweet rolls, etc. She would eat all of hers and some of other people's plus sweet rolls and when the meeting was over asked who wanted to go for Chinese. She ate like that all the time and was the thinnest person in our office.

It isn't just calories. It is obviously extremely complicated. So many people now have digestion problems. Allergies are rampant. The food and environment have changed dramatically in my lifetime. Corporations make "food" that is highly addictive and nutritionally deficient.

Until your health changes and along with it your weight, while you're thin it is easier to judge people. At my age, seeing what I've seen, I'm not prepared to judge anyone. Yes, some overeat and it is obvious to those around them. But that has become the stereotype for being overweight, and I don't believe that everyone who is overweight it overeating.
 
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The idea that if someone is overweight then it is due to their choices is problematic for me. In the United States we are constantly bombarded by messages telling us to eat more processed junk food and many communities don't have access to healthy food - the before mentioned food deserts. Even Wal-Mart is better than what many of these communities have. The guardian article linked to early even said that after Wal-Mart left people lost access to fruits and vegetables - the community were trying to grow their own but I got the impression that it was no where near enough at least at this time. The article quotes residents stating that they were eating poorer after Wal-Mart left and that lines at McDonald's had increased. These people don't have a lot of options in the short run - especially when you factor in the poor employment options for the people there and the sudden change they have faced.

I think that if only a small percentage of people were overweight than you could likely blame personal choice. But when the percentages grow to the level I have heard often mentioned (especially for certain states and communities) than it makes me believe that we as a society have made poor choices and people being overweight is a symptom of that societal choice. So personally I don't blame the individual but I do blame our society as a whole. If people should eat healthier than start promoting that and stop promoting junk food (compare current health campaigns to advertising dollars spent for junk food). If we want people to be more active then they need the time to do that - working 40 plus hours and having long commutes makes that very difficult.

So for myself I will keep putting pressure on our society as a whole and just offer my support to the people suffering from what I see as the bad choices we all made that is resulting in so much individual suffering.
 
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Wj Carroll wrote:Dawn Hoff,

I apologize if you have already answered this... I am trying to keep read up on this thread, but it is rather active.  Are you consuming many naturally fermented foods and beverages, and avoiding unnecessary antibiotics?  The standard modern diet and antibiotics seriously disrupt our gut health.  I have had severe asthma most of my life - the kind that kills.  Once I began drinking about a pint each of water kefir and kombucha daily, may asthma went away.  That is a far better result than any medication.  I have spoken with others who incorporated these, and/or milk kefir, fermented pickles, sauerkraut, kimchi, etc, into their diets and no longer experience symptoms of lactose intolerance or gluten intolerance.  Others have reported improved nasal allergies, auto-immune conditions, diabetes and much more.  I, and all others with whom I have spoken, also experienced significant fat loss and better digestive health.  It also helps prevent or combat food poisoning and all bacterial infections.  Sandor Katz, who is the author of two of the best books on fermentation on the market today (Bill Mollison's is hard to find and cost a fortune, btw), has lived with AIDS for at least 20 years, and credits his health and survival to fermented foods and beverages.

Yes I eat a lot of fermented food - but kombucha/kefir affects my brain - I feel weird in my head when I drink them, so I only drink them very occasionally. But I do eat fermented veggies almost every day. I haven't had anti-biotics in more than 2 years and really do try to stay away from them all together - but 2 years ago I had a UTI that would not go away no matter what I did.

Most obese people I know have tried a million different things. I agree that we have an obesity epidemic - it is a problem. But I do not think it is as simple as calories in and calories out...
 
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Daron Williams wrote:If people should eat healthier than start promoting that and stop promoting junk food (compare current health campaigns to advertising dollars spent for junk food). If we want people to be more active then they need the time to do that - working 40 plus hours and having long commutes makes that very difficult.

So for myself I will keep putting pressure on our society as a whole and just offer my support to the people suffering from what I see as the bad choices we all made that is resulting in so much individual suffering.



It isn't just the advertising. A more serious issue is the government subsidizing crops like corn that shows up in all that "food" they sell in stores. That corn has been altered to be almost entirely starch. Get some yellow dent corn from any cattle rancher and try eating it. No amount of boiling will make that something you want to eat.

It ends up as high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) added to almost every packaged product and drink. If you want to get healthy, avoid that stuff and anything else chemically created. We are blaming people who don't realize - yet - that almost everything they eat is bad for them.

Daron is right. If you want to get healthy, you have to find a way to get out of the rat race and off that treadmill that leaves you little choice but to eat fast food and packaged crap. That is what I did when I got serious. I resigned from IBM, started working from home, figured out what I should be eating and found a way to do it.

My first priority was avoiding fluoridated water. I eat no packaged food and only eat out a few times a year. All my food is organic, primarily fruits and vegetables. What meat, poultry, and butter I use is organic grass-fed. But that doesn't mean my health and weight immediately got better.

They are moving that way, but it has taken way longer (years) than I expected it to take.
 
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Dan that sound like a very good niche, grow your own veggies and sell the leftovers!
I like the Weston price approach: weston price website however I do eat sugar (not too much) and sometimes white flour...
Weston price recommeds to eat bone broths fatty meat nice butter etc. and to prepare grains properly.
To the movie: I liked it. I mean there is a difference between obese and obese. I Australia there is huge money in weight loss and they declare about everyone obese.
It is really different to be a bit round especially if you are older and to be really fat (size 18+).
I found Dan's notion interesting that really fat (not the declared obese) people don't get to a normal size at least statistically. Why would that be?
I bet that a lot is due to the "food" sold at the supermarkets and the inability to cook properly.
 
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