Emerson White wrote:
SS our technology now is to the level where we can catalog and achieve some traits much faster and much cheaper with less use of fertilizer, sprays, petrochemicals, and water than we could with out it.
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I don't think that any of my posts implied that such a database exists, only that such a database is possible. We have a very extensive database for E. coli and Drosophila melanogaster but certainly not for apples.SILVERSEEDS wrote:
So we agree such a data base doesnt exist.
We also agree that there needs to be more specialization of agricultural goods for localized conditions (I do not think that being a locavore is necessarily a good move for the environment, because it encourages people to grow things in unsuitable environments) so that we take advantage of the wildly different conditions and are not as vulnerable to disease. and that we need to protect soil fertility and improve it over time.Do we further agree that there is a need for more localized agriculture?
If we do, then do we agree there are dozens and dozens of major zones in our country alone, with differing soils and elevations and diseases and so many other factors? within each of those zones other factors things can be even more divergent.
do we agree we need a permanent methods of farming, that can retain or increase fertility on a given site?
Just how big of a database do we need? lets say 50 traits a plant? Its way more then that, but lets keep it easy. There are lets say a mere 100 variables a site, when its actually many more then that.... so 100 variables interacting with 50.... those recessives in the plants, and disease response even different sometimes in other places...
From my studies into breeding I dont see anyone even working on this database in a from that actually is working at accounting for all variables. Please post some examples if you know of them. Ive read a fair amount of things on breeding work of various groups. not nearly everything but a lot. Ive seen people working on a disease, or a trait like this red apple.
actually one of the cooler projects i know of was heading full force into production, LOTS of excitement, and it fizzled out last I heard. It was delayed a few years now. It was a corn project that involved crossing to i believe it was dipploperennis, or maybe a dipplo hybrid.... they had a great producing corn, that was extremely drought tolerant, deep roots, and out producing everything around that was irrigated. which this was not. this was in georgia.... I will have to look it up to see if theres ne info on it, but its been delayed awhile now. Like so many of the actually useful projects my breeder friend came across in his time.
so not trying to sound conspiratorial, but we all know money talks. Is there even a political will to build such a breeding program, to match what perma culturalists could EASILY do themselves if we all decided to??? should we wait for them? Is anyone asking them to do this?
You should not stop, so long as it was worth it for you to test apple trees to begin with it will be worth it for you to keep on testing apple trees for years to come. We have money for this because there is a combined educational, environmental, and commercial focus, stacking functions.
heck the industry sure wont do it... unless its GM stuff and they can own you along with it. theres a few places outside that grasp and unniversities, but industry directs most of it.
Do we even have the money for this? It would be super expensive for us to fund as a country. we are spending to much now. We cant print our way out of things forever, like our dead soils or ways are catching up to us. can we convince folks we need to spend on such a project? Thats actually including ALL variables for ALL regions...
As far as i can tell, i wont have really good growing apples unless I breed them. Plums im on solid footing, a few others.
the labs like Ive said are useful dont get me wrong. But few things we see are heading in the direction I personally feel actually addresses issues we actually face. the great thing is it doesnt matter... I CAN in my back yard do the work myself. Apples a bit trickier then many other things by the way. with many other things, youll always have useful fruit. So perhaps would be more desirable for more folks to invest time into. For my forest set up though I NEED extra trees, for new terra preta, and hugelkultur. i will need a continual source of such things, so constantly needing to thin trees in the 20 percent of my set up that will be for tree breeding, is a bonus actually.
Heck even if labs do start trying to include all variables on site for all crops, (clearly decades off when its an issue NOW) does this mean I should stop anyway? that my meandering wont create a new taste? apples can vary by extremes. and its a complex flavor matrix. Is it likely youll find the tastiest apples ever? no, but its possible. If 1,000,000 permaculturalists each planted on average (my average will by many factors of that) 10 trees for breeding selection every ten years where would we be?
SILVERSEEDS wrote:
Yeah Im sure many folks would use trees from such projects, and other crops... I even said I would depending on the nature of the project. Some thing biotech are just mapping, others Id probably not bother with. Never gm stuff. Id be crossing them to my first generation of keepers.![]()
Apples are a bit different then some other trees. With many stones fruits, you could cross a few together that do well enough for you, and continue to save the best of each generation. Most types of nuts also, could be marketable though nuts would take longer then the stone fruits ut a wide margin. you could go through a generation or two and leave it to your kids, in a permie mindset though. thats the world Id love to leave my kids anyway, even if labs DO get it right and Ive got my doubts theres anything in the workd with plans to except singular issues, or even groupings of tougher ones, its just to big for them to focus on all of them imo, and with sound reason to think as much. stone fruits though they produce decently young, and all will have usable fruit. Just like our corn will slowly do better as we save seed a few generations, you can do this with trees to. Orchards trees need replaced (production orchards anyway). so if you were working with something thats always got desirable offspring then in addition to breeding you have adapting, as desirable mutations accumulate through picking out the best each generation. superior things you leave or graft to other trees as you replace the orchard in its time.
Labs will continue to do this kind of research and GMOs and basic chemical research on soils and ecological research on plant microbe communities. You name it someone it trying to figure it out.Lots of berry bushes it would be an even faster turn around. strawberries to. you can do these things even semi passively with great benefit. as good as most of us outside of key production areas will be likely to see especially.
Its great to hypothesize what this type of lab work COULD do, If they built a massive data base and actually wanted to breed for each region to have locally adapted things. I want to KNOW that such trees will be bred though. How long until these folks breed me a dryland corn, thats VERY short season. how long until i get my barely and winter peas,and lentils? or any dryland legumes or grains? Keep in mind Im WAY out from regular production zones. If they went by order of importance by most measures Id be towards the end of the list.
Honestly i DO hope the labs keep breeding non GM stuff. I hope they take as many traits as possible to their extremes, it will help my work. yet is so extremely unlikely to replace my work, Id be fooling myself imho to think otherwise.
Emerson White wrote:
I don't think that any of my posts implied that such a database exists, only that such a database is possible. We have a very extensive database for E. coli and Drosophila melanogaster but certainly not for apples.
We also agree that there needs to be more specialization of agricultural goods for localized conditions (I do not think that being a locavore is necessarily a good move for the environment, because it encourages people to grow things in unsuitable environments) so that we take advantage of the wildly different conditions and are not as vulnerable to disease. and that we need to protect soil fertility and improve it over time.
Not every bit of variable is going to affect every trait. For most genes the environment with the greatest impact on them is the other genes within the organism, and contrary to popular belief the genes more and more appear to interact in pretty set and regimented ways, I'm not going to give a big long biology lesson here but there are good reasons for this to be the case.
It doesn't look like a database because they are just getting the ball rolling on data collection, but everything they do is being recorded and compiled and the data bases are being built behind the scenes. I think the fact that you don't see them says more about the fact that you are not involved in molecular biology than anything else.
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If you can improve things you should go do that, everyone in academic biotech is working with the intention of making more sustainable more environmentally friendly, more affordable food production, however there is disagreement about how best to achieve those ends.
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You should not stop, so long as it was worth it for you to test apple trees to begin with it will be worth it for you to keep on testing apple trees for years to come. We have money for this because there is a combined educational, environmental, and commercial focus, stacking functions.
It is too big for them to focus on everything, but it's already too big for us to focus on everything, that's why we haven't got a perfect apple yet and probably never will, however they can make progress faster and that's really the goal.
Labs will continue to do this kind of research and GMOs and basic chemical research on soils and ecological research on plant microbe communities. You name it someone it trying to figure it out.
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