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Need Apocalyptic Survival Advice. No Really. C5  RSS feed

 
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There are many preppers who don't speak a word about it. Even outside of the US. My neighbor ticked off permits for the city council and he signed off a lot of bunkers. Rich people are building them, stocking them, sealing them from prying eyes. The greedy and ruthless have mostly gone the bunker route, I'm sure there's plenty smart enough to go the private island route too if they've the money.

Much like chemists being kidnapped by today's gangsters to make drugs, permies will get kidnapped by rich idiots to grow potatoes. Am kidding, kind of...

You better survive, cos some of those rich assholes will, and if they're all we got for a gene pool - ouch.

I think if the west collapses many so called third world nations will keep right on ticking, with some thriving having got out from under our 'sphere of influence'. History suggests empires fall, societies endure.

Community working together to meet basic needs is key to a decent future. Holing up with guns is redneck BS.




 
pollinator
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Much like chemists being kidnapped by today's gangsters to make drugs, permies will get kidnapped by rich idiots to grow potatoes. Am kidding, kind of...  



There is some truth to that concept. After the Russians withdrew from Cuba in the '60's the organic growers there (with seeds) were treated very well. They were paid more than doctors simply because they had food & knew how to make more.
 
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I chose to walk away from this for the rest of the evening to get caught up on news. Then this showed up. Not a source I would back but worth the chuckle considering what we have been chatting about.
https://www.theorganicprepper.com/heres-why-a-prepper-homestead-may-not-a-good-plan-for-survival/

(Remember what i said about......... C5 Rule Of Survival- There is no such thing as a Survival or Prepper Expert. Anyone claiming to be is just trying to sell you something, whether that is a product, service, religious or political position)
 
gardener
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Location: Central Oklahoma (zone 7a)
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That article is a curious hybrid of an extremely good essay (about why you need to get your shit together before you need it to be together), really bad specific suggestions (well, not bad exactly, just entirely not the way I would approach them in most cases), and wildly mendacious affiliate links.  I do like the essay though; it's top notch.
 
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What happened at kent state makes me think of how the us military is the single greatest user of oil and energy on paper today. (even before space force) They can do anything they want.

It's a perpetual motion device? Ever demanding, ever expanding. Fueled by what keeps us down, and keeping us down for good. Sometimes us americans will go so far as to say "our boys are bullies", but we shudder to think we might be bullied.

Not to pick on any one military though, I merely meant to highlight an elephant. We need all of our brothers and sisters in the armed forces and they need us! How many drones are there now? How many new types? how many frikken lasers? or sound weapons? bug weapons? corn weapons? WTFK (who the fuck knows)

That bully is really big and keeps ALOT of us down. Even if you have never seen a m1a2 abrams tank, you know a couple of them could rip your whole world asunder, and that keeps us all squeaking along, with our heads down, glancing out of the corners of our eyes at each other, as if nothing is wrong. What are we going to say to them? What can we do about this?

It's a well made design is it not? This synthscape planet of ours. Something designed for us. Lots of accelerated sucession principle at work while stacking function and time. Very thorough and deep rooted. Down to the genetic level, to the quantum level. Unchangeable it would seem. We need an un-design at best, and a damn fine one.

With that, I say bravo! Thank you!
 
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Justin Shropshire wrote:

Not to pick on any one military though, I merely meant to highlight an elephant. We need all of our brothers and sisters in the armed forces and they need us! How many drones are there now? How many new types? how many frikken lasers? or sound weapons? bug weapons? corn weapons? WTFK (who the fuck knows)

That bully is really big and keeps ALOT of us down. Even if you have never seen a m1a2 abrams tank, you know a couple of them could rip your whole world asunder, and that keeps us all squeaking along, with our heads down, glancing out of the corners of our eyes at each other, as if nothing is wrong. What are we going to say to them? What can we do about this?



Don't think for one minute that we couldn't stand up to our military if we had to. The people in Iraq stood up to the US military as did the Afghanis and they manage to wage a pretty darn good fight (a fight that goes on to this day). If they can do it we could do it too! Well at least the armed 30% could, and that alone is a lot And if it happened you could also be sure there would be foreign countries "helping the rebels" with arms, intelligence, and cash.

There may not ever be a definitive winner but going to war with the American civilian population would have very severe consequences and they know it. In many countries putting segments of the population on trucks or trains bound for "re-education" camps would be a very viable option, but not here.

Dc Brown wrote:Community working together to meet basic needs is key to a decent future. Holing up with guns is redneck BS.



I don't think ridiculing specific cultures or ethnicities is a good idea if the goal here is to have a polite discussion and share ideas.
 
Posts: 228
Location: Australia, New South Wales. Köppen: Cfa (Humid Subtropical), USDA: 10/11
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As an outsider non-‘merican, I can only guess from the 24/7 media cycle, and the several times I’ve visited there, what it is like to live and survive in the USA.

Firstly, PLEASE don’t misconstrue this as a ‘we are better than them’ argument, or, a fault finding exercise. That is not the intention. Perhaps a bit of ‘tough love’?

I believe ‘Prepping’, in the survivalist sense, is purely an American thing left over from the ‘Reds Under The Beds’ era, and has since spread to other countries predominantly via social media. The reasons why it has been adopted elsewhere are varied, and probably has a lot to do with regional histories e.g. Europeans know first-hand how fragile politics can be, and the likelihood of war based on centuries of disputes and conflicts.

Other reasons are less tangible and sometimes verge on mental/behavioural disorders such as ‘Splitting’ i.e. all or nothing/black and white thoughts, a big rock from space, the sun going pop, alien invasion et al.

As others have alluded, I think there are three types of Preppers:

  • Personal Prepping: as Pearl eloquently stated, where life deals cruel blows and disenfranchises the individual from mainstream society. E.g. those with physical and/or mental health issues, job loss, long term unemployment, etc
  • Domestic Prepping: where government mismanagement, inequity and lack of civic support leads people to either, on one extreme, dig the proverbial hole and hide, or worse, promote national insurrection. E.g. the current state of prepping in the USA versus the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia.
  • International Prepping: not something we’ve yet seen or experienced on a large scale even though natural and manmade catastrophes occur on a regular basis: earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tsunamis, Three Mile Island/Chernobyl/Fukishima. Though in practice it may emulate World War 2/Cold War preparations. (Many governments already prepare for certain things like epidemics/pandemics, nuclear screw-ups, etc)


  • It’s easy to confuse PERSONAL PREPPING with DOMESTIC PREPPING because marginalised people tend to become disillusioned and it snowballs from there.

    PERSONAL PREPPERS are the kinds that make homemade preserves, their own clothes, live frugally, do the Permaculture thing.

    In regards to DOMESTIC PREPPERS, I don’t like their ideals at all, which essentially boils down to defeatist attitudes, hiding, rushing straight to armed conflict, Armageddon dog-eat-dog scenarios. People react differently when they are scared or threatened – fight or flight. It’s rare these days for people to simply STAY CALM AND WORK THINGS OUT, too much emotion, not enough grey-matter use.

    Driving force behind such extremes? Again, from an outsiders perspective:

    Prepping cannot be divorced from domestic politics.

    In the American context, the ‘evolution’ of US politics, and the way it’s practiced, has been a worrying concern for decades:

  • The management of domestic issues like the  1950’s/60’s use of armed militia to prevent/control riots – it’s a big no/no in most countries as there are significant lines of division between Policing and Soldiering. One is for internal protection/control of citizens, the other for outside/international threats. Soldiers primarily use deadly force, Police predominantly use non-violent methods of persuasion
  • The mismanagement of international affairs, most of which have been disastrous for the US-allies and the relevant civilian populations. Making lots of international enemies in the process.


  • (I’ll purposely sidestep the ‘gun debate’, the horrific number of gun related deaths, incarceration numbers, etc. But it all contributes to the end product.)

    However, perhaps the elephants-in-the room are the entrenched two-party revolving door, coercion by cashed-up lobbyists, the weird seesaw of government from democratic plutocracy to autocracy and every other ‘crasy (crazy!).

    Instability and uncertainty seems to be the new norm; which is undoubtedly perpetrated, choreographed and perpetuated by politicians and lobbyists because it works in their favour. As subtle as breaking an organic egg with a sledgehammer!

    Combined with incessant scare tactics and fake news, it’s no wonder people feel overwhelmed, powerless and worried, justifying a need to prepare for ‘end of days’.

    It is indeed a shame you guys won the War of Independence, because the resulting governing system may have been more equitable and robust, based on the collective knowledge of several hundred years of checks and balances, international experience, trade, and war.

    I acknowledge our political systems are significantly different, however, the American system is (at least on paper) still democratic. It is therefore the responsibility of citizens to drive change through their elected representatives, if they don’t deliver, get rid of the bastards one way or another. If the system fails, change the system – using peaceful means!

    Democracy is slow, expensive and tedious, with all the checks & balances it is the tortoise not the hare. It is, or should be, meticulous; constantly challenging ideas, modifying and ADAPTING to meet the changing needs of its people. It is a DYNAMIC, NOT STATIC, system.

    For comparison purposes: the opposite interactions occur in the Australian system, which has been called a ‘Washminster mutation’ because it takes good parts from both the Westminster and American systems. Although there’s two major parties, parliament contains a substantial mix of other ‘Independents’ that may or may not be affiliated with the major ones. It may appear messy, but it’s equitable. Basically, our politicians are scared shitless of the voting public because they very much have a direct influence on their future. Also, voting is compulsory – forced to exercise the democratic right!

    Given the current shifts in our society, I wouldn’t be surprised if Australia adopts a pseud Nordic Model of Social Democracy in the not too distant future.

    As two good American Presidents, great orators and statesmen once said:

    ‘… ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country.
    JFK

    America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
    Abe Lincoln

    DOMESTIC PREPPERS would be better off redirecting their (futile) flight/fight efforts by organising themselves into a political force; a third party choice for the many disenfranchised people; gaining momentum and forcing positive change (adaptation) in government policy – in that rather 1960’s hippie scenario I see a tangible connection between Prepping, Permaculture, Organics, Free Love and World Peace. Amen!


     
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    I like the Fight Club reference.  Which is kind of a psychopath reference?

    Psychopaths are a natural occurrence, (the original one percenters).  Nature's insurance policy to make sure there's always someone who knows hot to control, and manage the flock.

    Whether they're born, or made, it happens young.  They have to adapt to survive from the time they're conscious of "being".  They're the most successful, most powerful, most adaptable people on the planet.
    Yeah, some of them end up as serial killers, but most of them end up winning at the game.  It doesn't matter what the game is, they win it.

    So, one might want to pick a psycho's brain if they want to have a club about adapting.  Not that it would help a non psychopath win the game, just that it would help them to understand why they'd always lose when playing against one.

    It took a South Park video, and a "survival" thread to bring me back..........if the powers that be let me come back that is?
    My apologies.  :)

    S. Tenorman  
     
    pollinator
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    I don't think an American civilian militia with AR-15s could credibly stand up to Abrams tanks and F-35s. This continent simply lacks the centuries of counterinsurgency training and guerilla warfare built into its populace.

    I also don't think it's useful to the topic. As mentioned earlier, if people stopped being played by the politicians of whatever stripe and actually participated in their democracies, actual change could be achieved.

    Violence isn't necessary, nor is the threat of violence. I firmly believe it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    A lot of energy is spent on fear and division that could otherwise be brought to bear to strengthen the bonds of community. If, instead, we reached out to people who share the same convictions, like we do on this site, we could build little villages of resilience and adaptation within our larger towns and cities.

    If we're already leading to some extent, should something suddenly destabilising happen, we can just continue to do so, who are more geared towards building up rather than tearing down.

    If there is no destabilising event, or even a slow decline, then we take the reigns of the grassroots and create the change we wish to see in society.

    And we can still use our firearms as tools for the purposes for which they're best suited: to provide wild game for the table.

    -CK
     
    Dc Brown
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    Thank you F. Agricola, for so succinctly voicing things I was struggling to express.

    Over here in NZ we were in the clutches of ruthless nasty men. A Merryl Lynch banker became our Prime Minister they started selling assets, bashing minorities, stifling dissent etc while basic services plummeted and debt soared. People were getting very antsy, but then we had an election where the other half scraped through via a Coalition Government. The National (Tory scum) Government controls the media but has been unable to dent the tide of information coming out about how badly they did behind closed doors. And now one of their politicians has gone rogue and is exposing their dirty secrets.

    This NZ party of globalist dead eyed scum that seemed impossible to shake free of, they are imploding as we speak. Meanwhile, we have a relatively decent government planting trees, banning oil exploration, helping people, raising R&D, almost like the good old days before corruption was in charge. And no, they sure aint perfect. But a work in progress.

    Governments are dynamic. Trump will be history soon. Great leaders appear when there is great need. We got one.

    The worm can turn. Organise, assemble, vote!

    As for your military turning on you. This would divide the military itself, very quickly.

    Also, there were a bunch of dudes making home made bombs and driving round in pick ups in the desert and they gave your military a right run around after all that 'shock and awe'. We got a guy here made a cruise missile in his garage for a few thousand bucks... A smart engineer would make short work of your tanks and be nowhere in sight as they did so. You got plenty of smart people and your populace is far more heavily armed. This is fucked up imo but what do I know except statistics.  It's time to stop being scared and start being assertive.

    You don't need to be more heavily armed, you need to be more heavily connected.







     
    Justin Shropshire
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    To lucrecia,
    That makes me think of the "original homeland security" memes and shirts showing four armed apache ready to protect their way of life. They did what they could, but what was the outcome? We americans have moxy for sure, and a vast resource base to boot, but a clarification of my intent is necessary. I won't think of armed conflict as even a possibility. Engaging in combat with any military might is part of their design, not ours. It perpetuates the military's very existence, and even expands upon it.

    To agricola,
    Any government that might actually benefit us is one that is designed to steadily decrease in size and scope, not increase or compound upon itself. It is important, though, to collect bits of what works, I agree. Think of the nitrogen fixers feeding fruit trees. We are those fruit trees, and the fixers get chopped and dropped until they might not even grow back, no longer being necessary.

    Here are some quotes from plato's republic. "Is there anything worse for a state than to be split and disunited? Or anything better than cohesion and unity?", and "For is it not a scandalous sign of bad education if one's sense of right and wrong is so deficient that one has to seek justice at the hands of others as one's masters and judges?", and my favorite "Good men and women need no orders." (laws) Plato also "solved" the military issue in his fantastical republic by denying rulers and soldiers the ability to own property. That's right, when senator x or general y can only feed themselves if the farmers have enough harvest, a whole different connotation of homeland security comes into view.

    Let's think about the most general group of 10 people you can imagine. 9 of the 10 people will, in any event, likely work together to fulfill the needs of the whole. The 10th person uses the other 9 to fulfill his/her needs alone. I call these "10th" folks the elite because they need that "better than you" mindset to achieve their goals. We have great strength in our selfless group efforts and connectedness. The elite do not. They are not team players even with other elites. The best they can do is spread eliteist ideals through every kind of social framework (education, religion, government, money, etc.) in order to have people enslave themselves to a rigid heirarchy. Eliteism begets more eliteism. You want to be the best right? All those fortune 500 elite owners know the tools to manipulate their ambitious employees to no end. They need us badly to promote their ideals and to do their work, and we do it. It's very tricky behavioral engineering on a scale of millennia.

    Thanks again everybody!
     
    Mike Barkley
    pollinator
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    Adapting to the situation. Preparing recently harvested peanuts for next year's seed & food use today. Maybe dehydrate a Seminole pumpkin. Adapting to & overcoming a fresh peanut butter shortage. Needs urgent attention. Code Red.
    China-Tiananmen-Tank-Man.jpg
    [Thumbnail for China-Tiananmen-Tank-Man.jpg]
     
    pollinator
    Posts: 2116
    Location: Massachusetts, Zone:6/7, AHS:4, Rainfall:48in even Soil:SandyLoam pH6 Flat
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    "Third World" Sustenance Farming to me is the same as prepping/homesteading, it's simple getting your needs met directly onsite because the centralized marketplace that developed countries/USA have doesn't exist. Prepping is what everyone does in 3rd world countries esp during "hurricane/typhoon" season. You stock up on water+propane tank and camping food. Adapters/Homesteader/etc are simply trying to recreate a lifestyle that used to exist in less centralized times. aka more onsite production, less dependency on centralized "defense+water+food+etc".

    I like the idea of companies not centralizing stuff, governments not centralizing stuff, and people actively seeking to unplug from the current centralized system of food/sewer/water/protection/healthcare/energy. We will never be 100% self-sufficient but for every little thing that we can move to the state/county/city/community/home/personal level then the better it is in my view. Not that I dislike the idea of governments/companies providing a backup/insurance/help when I can't do stuff myself, but the goal in my views is do empower everyone to do as much of what they can do at a home scale as much as possible. Even something like hybrid learning where the gov/company provide the school books/course (online too) but the students are actually physically home being more active in whole education process.

    I am glad that we have centralized free housing/healthcare/education and if it is needed we use it as a safety net, but personally I prefer if we try to leave free centralized public housing/water/etc and move towards a more self-reliant way of life that is in my opinions just as good but usually better.

    I don't understand the desire and love to be depended on the corporate/government systems when one could do just as good if not better with there own hands. Do we just think that we are inferior to whatever the gov/corporation can give to us (free or paid systems) and even if they can offer better stuff than what we can do for ourself, don't we at least feel like we should do the small stuff for ourselves. At this point I might as well just start waiting for corporations/gov to release something to breath for me because, its too much effort.


     
    gardener
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    To bring this back to what would it look like if we got past all of the stuff we all dislike about what is going on...

    How could adaptability be taught to kids, in schools or out? How can adaptability be taught to adults? Learning the hard way is a harsh way to learn, is there such thing as video games that teach how to think adaptable? Because I think that part of turning this culture to adaptable will start with a higher percentage of people being able to think this way. They won't understand solutions if they can't understand them. Those of us who can think past the first layer of the concept might put some work into how to teach others to follow us.  And the first level is not survival stuff, and it's not why you want to change your head, it's even knowing that adaptable thinking exists, in ANY situation.
     
    master steward
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    Teaching adaption to kids. Now that's a topic right up my alley. First off, what are the components for adaption? Here's the one's I thought up earlier, so I'll work with those:

    Using what resources you have available NOW (gas, electricity, TIME) to set up systems that are more easily sustainable
  • Let them help you visit the dump or go yard sale-ing. Let them help you make garden beds. Explain why you do what you do, espcially if they are interested.

  • Changing your perspective. Thinking about what I NEED and getting in the habit of not wanting so much. /Start living without your wants.
  • Make sure they have everything they NEED. If they always have their needs met, they'll start to differentiate between the two.
  • Make them wait or work for things. We only got toys on our birthdays and Christmas. So, we WAITED until we got something. It gave us time to reflect to see if we really wanted it.
  • Have them save up for things. I wanted one of those crazy-expensive American Girl dolls. I asked for it for years for Christmas. It was too expensive (the doll was over $100, and accessories were $20+). My parents told me I could save up for it with my allowance. I got $20/month. I saved for over a year, and looked at my $140 and thought, "Do I really want to spend all of this on one doll??" I realized I didn't. TO this day, it is still one of the most influential experiences in my life.

  • Learn to work hard now. Get used to spending all day working your tail off and not having time to watch netflicks.
  • Spend more and more time out day. Ask the kids (don't command, but ask) them to help. Don't step in when they want to tackle a big job by themselve. TOday my son wanted to dig to find out why there was mysterious drainage rock in our salmonberry patch. I let him. We found a giant boulder and dug it out.
  • Kids don't generally think things are hard or impossible unless you tell them it is. Be optomistic about what they can do. Let them TRY things. Let them use their initiative.
  • It's easier to work hard if your strong. Help your kids be strong. Be more active. Take walks. Run. Play together. Life heavy things. Let them learn to be strong. My son wanted a giant pumpkin at the pumpkin patch. We said he could have it if he picked it up. He picked that thing up!

  • Everything takes MORE time when life gets hard.
  • Don't hide your struggles from your kids, especially as they get older. You don't need to burden them with them, but let them know them. When I was little, my mom and dad talked about finances and WHY we didn't take vacations all the time and why we didn't buy expensive sugar cereal and why we didn't buy gum balls in the machine. They didn't lie; they explained. Sure, we kept asking for these things, for years, but we also knew we wouldn't get them. Just because your kids keep asking, doesn't mean they don't understand.
  • Let your child do as much as they can before intervening. Let them feel their own struggles. Let them learn to do things, and when they get stuck, teach them how to get unstuck and help them then.

  • Learn skills and get good at them now, so they are second nature and you get most of the kinks out before your life really depends on it.!
  • As annoying and time-consuming and frustrating as it can be, let your child watch and help you. They will be in the way. It will take longer. They will mess it up. But if they want to help, let them help. Let them learn that work is good--they already think that. Let them learn to do your things. Today my son and daughter scrambled eggs. They are almost-2 and 5. They wanted to learn, and I let them. They love to help load the dishwasher and start it, so I let them. They wanted to hang up clothes, so I got them they're own lines. They won't always want to help, and don't force it unless they're a good teachable-reason. Forcing it causes resentment. Encourage any and all desire to help, at whatever age it occurs. As a child I wanted to mow the lawn. For years my parents told me "No." Then when I was 15 or so, they said I could. But, by that point I didn't want to. To this day, I am still wary of mowing the lawn, because my mind is half-stuck in what I was taught at a young age "I can't mow the lawn."

  • Use less. Reuse more.
  • Help them make things from what they have. Watch videos about trash. The Rotten Truth is a great one for younger kids. It's a bit outdated, but it really teaches the idea that "You can't make NOTHING out of something." Down the Drain is also a pretty good one about water management. My son LOVES both these videos, and has watched them a ton.
  • Talk to them about what they need. Talk to them when you DON'T buy something that you want, so they can understand why.
  • Lead by example. Your kids learn from what you do. Be less wasteful.
  • Teach them about composting! Be aware that you might hear awkward things like, "I'm glad our duck died because it's now nutrients for the garden" or "I squished the bug so it could be nutrients." Your child is not likely evil--they are just trying to understand. Explain that it's better for things to be alive, but if they die, we want to make sure to make good use of them.

  • Help as many people move up the "Eco-scale" and be less wasteful, grow more food, and gain more skills.
  • Let them teach their friends and siblings things they know. People learn best often by teaching. By being forced to explain something, they learn more deeply what they know.
  • Model to them the appropriate ways to discuss things with friends. Act out experiences with toys.


  • Main things to teaching/raising kids:
  • Don't force if you don't have to. The more you ask and let them decline, the more likely they are to listen when you really need them too. If you're always telling them what to do every second of the day they will either (1) resent you and stop listening &/or (2) never learn to make their own decisions.
  • Let them help, even if it's inconvenient. Try not to stick them infront of a screen or tell them to play if they want to help make dinner. I'm not always able to do this, but I sure try!
  • Don't be a hypocrite. Don't tell them not to do something if you do it.
  • Don't hide your reasons. Explain them. Help them to understand the WHY instead of hiding hardships or forcing them to obey.

  •  
    gardener
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    I've been out of town for a couple of days, but have been following this thread on my phone.  

    I wanted to say something that may or may not be obvious.  Humans are extremely adaptable creatures.  We might not seem so considering how we get caught up in manufactured or manipulative cultural traps, but consider it now from a wider view:  From nomadic Kalahari bushman, to the Inuit of the high North, to the Yanomamo of the Amazon, just look at the variety in culture, tradition, and how we have adapted to our environment.  Just look at the variety of traditional dwellings, and then go into the more conventional ones in the modern world and then branch into how people also live on the streets or in dumpsters or shantytown slums.  Adaptability is our Nature.  We are hardwired for this, but those wires have been either severed or fused, or are somehow disconnected.  I will get into this a bit, and what I think are the core reasons.

    How could adaptability be taught to kids, in schools or out? How can adaptability be taught to adults? Learning the hard way is a harsh way to learn, is there such thing as video games that teach how to think adaptable? Because I think that part of turning this culture to adaptable will start with a higher percentage of people being able to think this way.  



    The thing is, kids are naturally adaptable.  Drop a little kid into a third world country, and he or she is speaking the language faster than any parent could.  And it's not just language.  It's only with our programming and schooling that children become non-adaptive.  Kids are knowledge sponges and learn things naturally.  

    The problem is teaching the adults who are full of experiences that have managed to get them through life.  People are always battling change, whether they are conscious of it or not.  I've heard this is so because people are constantly-on a subconscious level-equating their present survival with their past acts.  No matter how potentially unproductive, or potentially damaging, or counter-intuitive, or whatever the past acts were, they amounted to that person surviving, and thus... are,by some twisted internal logic, worth keeping.  So teaching someone to step outside this box is not so easy.  Taking a risk in this regard is not easy.  It's a leap in consciousness to break out of that fear.  I believe it can be taught.  But with adults, it will be different person by person on how they absorb or defect this information.  See the example of my mom below.    

    Part of the issue, I allude to early on in this post.  Our school system, and our culture, in general, are not serving to teach us how to learn.  They teach us to remember facts and regurgitate them, and to follow the leader, even if they have no leadership qualities and respect authority-even if it's not necessarily authoritative on the subject/task.  These things teach us how to NOT LEARN.  This is partly because they are against the grain of logic, and serve only to create an unstable system where Authoritarian structures tend to insert themselves and dominate.  

    So the beginning of it is to teach kids to follow their natural passion to learn things.  Our job as teachers is to figure out ways to teach the kids the basics through them learning about things they want to learn about.  So if a kid wants to learn about fish, he can learn reproductive biology, ecology, math, creative writing, physics, geometry, social studies...  it just goes on and on... but it needs to be guided properly by the teacher, so the kid isn't just learning about fish for fish's sake.

    The next thing is to ensure that people understand what real leadership is, and then they are put in roles where they can delegate authority to get a complex job done.  Leadership can be taught.  Most people do not have really great leadership skills... and this includes most people who are presently in leadership roles.  <--Most of them are actually more interested in puffing up their own feathers, and or controlling others.

    People have to want to learn.  They have to want to change.  This can't be forced at all.  You have to be gentle about it, for sure.

    Choices are going to be key to teaching adaption.  Let your kids, and whoever you are working with and doing things with, make choices so they can be as self-determining as possible.  Nicole alluded to a lot of this stuff in her recent post.  

    This can also be very difficult with adults.  My mother, for instance, is a shop-a-holic, and has, for the most part, always had her poor spending habits supported both by the greater culture and my father.  Giving her choices means that she buys stuff impulsively or basically does whatever she wants without thinking much about it.  She's basically like a badly schooled spoiled brat in an adults body, and with a credit card and freedom... I just shake my head.  I don't even know where to start, and at 70 years old, I doubt I'll be making any easy progress with her even if I put in a concerted effort.  It was pretty obvious from a pretty early age that my mom bought all the bad sides of the consumer culture dream pretty fully, but there was nothing a kid could do about it, but go along with it, and enjoy the tragedy when it spilled over into my side of things.  It wasn't like we were rich, or anything, but we weren't poor.  If we had been, I'm sure she would have learned to adapt slightly to deal with that... but I have a feeling she would not have learned much more about it than she did having more cash at her disposal.  I had to completely unlearn everything that she taught me as I became increasingly independent in my youth.  But it was not completely apparent just how much her programming had affected me until I moved out on my own and was forced to assess my needs and my wants and balance my budget.        
     
    Nicole Alderman
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    Roberto pokachinni wrote:

    The thing is, kids are naturally adaptable.  Drop a little kid into a third world country, and he or she is speaking the language faster than any parent could.  And it's not just language.  It's only with our programming and schooling that children become non-adaptive.  Kids are knowledge sponges and learn things naturally.  



    Most kids are naturally adaptable. Some kids do really struggle with change. My son was two when we had two very crazy years in a row. He did not adapt. He crumbled. He was used to having Mama and Dada's help whenever he needed it...and then Mama was pregnant and on bedrest, and then there was a baby, and then Dada got Crohn's. And every time we couldn't be there to help him, he crumbled further, becoming violent and anxious and tantruming constantly. It was horrible. It's taken a year and a half to get him back to where he was before I got pregnant. He's finally stabalizing because we've stabalized.

    Helping naturally anxious kids adapt to change is hard, especially when you can't actually be there to help them because life is going crazy all around you. I think for kids like that, the amount of change has to be increased slowly when you can be there to support them, BEFORE there's horrible things are happening and you have no time. This can be taking them to things just outside they're comfort zone--shopping, classes, trips, having to clean up they're mess, whatever. Help them build their independence and their coping skills.


    Roberto pokachinni wrote:
    This can also be very difficult with adults.  My mother, for instance, is a shop-a-holic, and has, for the most part, always had her poor spending habits supported both by the greater culture and my father.  Giving her choices means that she buys stuff impulsively or basically does whatever she wants without thinking much about it.  She's basically like a badly schooled spoiled brat in an adults body, and with a credit card and freedom... I just shake my head.  I don't even know where to start, and at 70 years old, I doubt I'll be making any easy progress with her even if I put in a concerted effort.  It was pretty obvious from a pretty early age that my mom bought all the bad sides of the consumer culture dream pretty fully, but there was nothing a kid could do about it, but go along with it, and enjoy the tragedy when it spilled over into my side of things.  It wasn't like we were rich, or anything, but we weren't poor.  If we had been, I'm sure she would have learned to adapt slightly to deal with that... but I have a feeling she would not have learned much more about it than she did having more cash at her disposal.  I had to completely unlearn everything that she taught me as I became increasingly independent in my youth.  But it was not completely apparent just how much her programming had affected me until I moved out on my own and was forced to assess my needs and my wants and balance my budget.        



    Not necessarily. My husband's parents were poor. So poor they went without food and heat at times. They were still fantastic consumers. Payday loans to pay off payday loans, buying things in catalogs with installments, pawning things, ignoring phone calls that were from creditors, etc. They're needs and wants were all mixed up because they never thought they'd have enough money for they're needs so why not buy some beer or a motorcycle or whatever on credit, and their kids some toys? And then go and pawn the stuff a few months later because there was no money. This is a very common concept among those raised in poverty, and it's really hard to overcome, and rather contagious. I've been helping my husband overcome it since we were dating...and then when we had tighter finances and lots of crazy stressful events, it was really tempting for me to also get my wants and needs mixed up, because everything feels so hopeless.

    I mention this as a word of warning to those who've never really been poor. When you are suddenly poor and stressed and overworked, it is often extremely easy to buy the convenience food or the toy for your kid without thinking, "If I buy this, I won't have money for XYZ." Even if you've spent years living on a tight budget successfully to save money, it's really different when you just plain don't have enough money no matter how much you sacrifice.

    Hopelessness, stress, being overworked, not having enough money or time or resources for your needs, and your kids are crying--that's what a crises looks like. And it's hard. It's hard to think rationally. I think it's probably even harder if it's sudden, and definitely harder if you've never had to budget. But, it's just plain hard. Or, at least, it was for me!
     
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    Roberto pokachinni wrote:
    It was pretty obvious from a pretty early age that my mom bought all the bad sides of the consumer culture dream pretty fully, but there was nothing a kid could do about it, but go along with it, and enjoy the tragedy when it spilled over into my side of things.  .......  But it was not completely apparent just how much her programming had affected me until I moved out on my own and was forced to assess my needs and my wants and balance my budget.



    The depth to which everyone gets programmed is only poorly appreciated.  Nutrition is not just about what you put into your mouth, but what you additionally put into your mind and soul....and the earlier in life this happens, the more difficult it is to root out.  Thus, your mother was following a survival track that brought her there (survival here meaning psychological and emotional, even if not physical) and that was many years in the making,....as it was for her parents before her.  The ability to live comfortably in a lifestyle promoted by a Permies culture will be more difficult than realized for those coming from opposite, even if it seems intellectually like "the answer".  Just, MHO, it will be more important to deal with these "programming that we don't realize" issues than making sure we've crossed the t's and dotted the i's on the construction of the bunker or bomb shelter.
     
    Pearl Sutton
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    John Weiland wrote:
    The depth to which everyone gets programmed is only poorly appreciated.  Nutrition is not just about what you put into your mouth, but what you additionally put into your mind and soul....and the earlier in life this happens, the more difficult it is to root out.  ... The ability to live comfortably in a lifestyle promoted by a Permies culture will be more difficult than realized for those coming from opposite, even if it seems intellectually like "the answer".  Just, MHO, it will be more important to deal with these "programming that we don't realize" issues than making sure we've crossed the t's and dotted the i's on the construction of the bunker or bomb shelter.



    Exactly! That's some of the words I was trying to come up with. The details of what needs to be fixed are details, AFTER the understructure of the programming of people to do as they are told, and don't learn to be adaptive has been fixed. Just as in Permaculture, you do your earthworks first. Long before you worry about what exact variety of tree will do best in your microclimate, the underlying structure of the soil levels and nutrients gets fixed, in trying to move to the next phase in survival of the species, we need to figure out what the "earthworks" for that would look like. And changing the programming of most people is one of the factors in that "earthwork."

    If we were doing a property analysis here, we'd start with:: What are the underlying factors of this land? What's keep, what's not, and why? How can we shift it? So when we are looking at terraforming a culture, we might need to start with:: What are the underlying factors of this culture? What's keep, what's not, and why? One of the don't keep is that learned helplessness that is taught to children at an early age, that programming that makes most people find their lives acceptable as is (of course commuting 3 hours a day then eating microwaved food is normal!) The factors that keep people from being adaptable to changing conditions are involved with being taught to not question the world, to not look at other options, and to fear change.  

    What other things are involved in the "earthworks?" I know there are others. Not sure what they are. Social programming is the low hanging fruit here, easy to identify, what other things are in the pattern of WHY it's stuck where it is, and what wants to be shifted so we can go to the next step? And how do you DO those earthworks? I'd volunteer my tractor, but I don't think I have the right attachments :)  
     
    Lucrecia Anderson
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    It appears this new "Adapters" movement can be simply defined by three traits:

    1) We are not like survivalists or preppers
    2) We have a name for our movement but no original or feasible ideas/concepts to base a movement on
    3) Our defining group characteristic is our mutual desire to mock and ridicule survivalists/preppers
     
    Chris Kott
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    But it looks like the Adapters movement has reason behind it, at least, and a conviction to not react out of fear to cause further damage.

    I personally think it should include the idea that outreach is tantamount, as is inclusion in society.

    Nobody holing up with their stuff anywhere is doing anything to improve the larger situation, nor are they improving their chances of survival by separating themselves out.

    If you're alone, you're dead. You have to sleep sometime, and on the larger scale, harvests happen at predictable intervals. Without a large enough group, that kind of "survival" is long-term suicide, especially in the socio-cultural context.

    Without a society, life will be reduced to trying to feed onesselves and ensure security. Little time will be left for anything that doesn't provide food, clothing, or shelter. Aside from literally preserving food, there will be few to no chances to convert excess wealth to some more durable form, and there would be no trade of durable goods for foodstuffs in times of dearth anyways.

    Say goodbye to things like literacy, never mind the arts in any form. Campfire tales based on remembered snatches of movies and old stories might remain.

    Prepping and survivalism embrace a fatalist, last-stand mentality. That's what breaking into tribes would entail.

    The Adapter movement, I think, has to embrace the idea that avoiding collapse, or slowing it down and keeping the parts of society that let us live in safety, is necessary.

    Because survival isn't enough. Survival is staying alive at all costs, which is a necessary part of the equation, but by itself results in eventual collapse itself. Survivalism is the sad epilogue to humanity.

    Adaptation, I think, needs to be concerned with how to avoid a collapse, how to make our communities more resilient in the face of any challenge, and how to move forward to create the world we want our children to live in.

    Prepping and survivalism deserve to be assessed critically; that's the only way to improve them as movements. Ultimately, though, I see them as incomplete thoughts, or as limited tools in humanity's civilisation-building toolbox. Used on their own, they result in a myriad of last stands over time as competing groups steal and destroy resources, eliminate skills by killing people in avoidable skirmishes, and slowly decay and degrade in capacity.

    Anyone remember the Yangs in that original Star Trek episode "The Omega Glory?"

    -CK
     
    Pearl Sutton
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    Chris Kott wrote:
    Adaptation, I think, needs to be concerned with how to avoid a collapse, how to make our communities more resilient in the face of any challenge, and how to move forward to create the world we want our children to live in.



    I agree, the whole point of this exercise, in my eyes, is to figure out a good direction to go to try to either avoid or mitigate a collapse, and turn it to a positive goal. At the moment, there are no good goals to aim for, makes it hard to figure out what to adapt to, what to drop, what to work on. Using the analogy of  permaculture design again, when you start a design on a property, you start with "What are the goals?" Someone who wants to raise healthy cattle will have a very different answer than someone who is planning a market garden, and someone who wants to just have a garden that's not toxic has another. If we are looking at the survival of humans and/or some chunks of this culture, if there are no goals past "live through the mess then figure it out" it makes it hard to start steering a course now.

    I have gotten very interested in this thread because I came up through the survival world, and into permaculture, followed that path, and think there are more steps on that path. I don't know the name of the next phase yet, but I think that if we all put thought into it from the point of view of trying to figure out what the next step would look like, maybe we can start working it out. I LOVE the idea of turning permaculture type thought onto this issue! I think it may be one of the better ways to consider it.

    Permaculture is more than just the gardening, it's a way to think about the world. I have seen people look at the ecological future from a permie standpoint, and look at social problems that way, but if anyone has worked on where are we going after the world gets messy, I haven't seen it. Except in this thread, there are glimmers of it :)  Keep thinking ahead, y'all, how far can we stretch our brains?

     
    Nicole Alderman
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    *Dons Moderator Hat*

    You may have noticed that this thread got locked for a week. There's been some boarderline not-nice comments. You probably know who you are. Please take this as a reminder that we all need to be nice in the Cider Press. If you cannot do that and respect other's ideas, we will be deleting posts. We would love for this discussion to continue NICELY so we can all continue learning. Thank you.

    *Doffs Moderator Hat*
     
    Mike Barkley
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    Politely reminding everyone to remove their water filters from storage areas that freeze. Sawyer Squeeze & others using the same filter technology will be ruined by freezing.
     
    pollinator
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    Bryant,

    Your input is accurate. You must have spent some time in disaster management.

    Devin,

    I have yet to see a phase 5, but I would not be surprised if there was one. Maybe trying to relabel prepping is phase 5.



    My phase 5 is to work toward having several people THAT I TRUST who have similar but different capabilities. I pretty much skipped some of the phases because they are silly. I have enough dual use weapons to check that box and some knives and axes and hand tools. And I have been using them for years. I have moved on to teach others. People are your best ally. Eventually you will get sick or injured. My spouse is my number one survival item. She has been with me long enough to "get me", and me with her. My next most important asset is my kids, they are who I pass on my learning and values to. They have friends and those friends have families. I can see how they hold house and whether they have in-home adaptability. Every year we find another family that we can lure in with our plenty. They are given nothing but the chance to work and learn and create a bounty for themselves- first on our land, then on theirs. I loan out equipment until they get tired of it and then they invest in their own tools or we cut a deal to share something that we don't have access to.

    The most concerning social aspect I see is the decline in trust. EMP has nothing on that. There was some discussion about military force imposition, which is simply a breach of trust writ large. You can see it in real time right now in Venezuela, where I spent time at the beginning of the slow burn. Yes, they have lost the Home Depot in Caracas, but the much bigger issue is that nobody can trust anyone outside cliques. This is a common technique used intentionally to break the power of networks as it pertains to human ingenuity.

    Build trust and build resilient networks. Everything else falls from that.
     
    pollinator
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    When I wanted to write something here, I saw the thread was closed. I see it is open again now.
    My first reaction is only on the word 'apocalypse':
    Let's not use the word 'apocalypse'. This word is so often mis-used. Many people think it means 'the end of the world', or something like that. It doesn't. Apocalypse comes from an old Greek word meaning: revelation, unveiling, disclosure. It means someone has a vision of things to come.

    My reaction on the topic in general is, like some others here say too: the most important is to have a community of people we know we can trust. We need to build such a community, in the neighbourhood we live in, but with internet communication worldwide at the same time. That's my advice.
     
    Ross Raven
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    Thank you everyone for your inputs.

    I would like to steer this back to topic. Hopefully when I get further in writing this, I will cut and paste a few ideas from here (minus names to prevent blowback) and present some of it as a discussion between  peers.

    What I am looking for is underlying principals.

    Example. One of the things I was struggling with since starting this, was talking about the Triage principal. Its a hard thing when you say, "To save this part of life or people, we have to cut lose what can not be saved and must be abandoned".

    In the face of this, how can we keep "The Adapters Movement" from just devolving back into the wild west shouting match of Conspiracies, Fear based politics, Warrior culture and militias, Religious and Racist extremism. Anyone who has been in the preppers movement for a few decades will know exactly what I an taking about.

    That is a pretty relevant subject this week.

    So, once again, I am searching for good "Principals" that would define what is, and what is not "Adaptation".

    Maybe even, What should be saved from the prepper movement an what needs to be cut lose. I believe the permaculture principal would be called "Chop and Drop"
     
    Ross Raven
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    Just to keep everyone interested, I sat down to write, got this far... and then decided to sit with it for a few months to let it ferment....


    "Survival does not go to the fittest, The strongest or the biggest. Evolutionary Paleontology shows this over and over. The same can be said for the human history of empires. Like the Brontosaurus or T-Rex, this may run for a while but then it hits an evolutionary dead end when rapid change to the ecosystem comes.

    Instead, evolution and survival goes to the most adaptive.



    First Rule of Adapters Club is- No preppers and survivalists allowed.

    Second Rule of Adapters Club is - No preppers and survivalists allowed.

    Third Rule of Adapters Club- Don't blame anyone but yourself for not adapting.

    Fourth Rule of Adapters club- You cant get anywhere by only looking backwards."
     
    Inge Leonora-den Ouden
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    Ross Raven wrote:...Survival does not go to the fittest, The strongest or the biggest. Evolutionary Paleontology shows this over and over. The same can be said for the human history of empires. Like the Brontosaurus or T-Rex, this may run for a while but then it hits an evolutionary dead end when rapid change to the ecosystem comes. Instead, evolution and survival goes to the most adaptive. ...


    Thinking of human history and 'no survival to the fittest': the Roman empire was very strong for some centuries, but then it just disappeared. Medieval Kings and emperors came and went. But where are all of these empires? Gone! During all eras there were 'ordinary people', hunting, gathering, homesteading, doing crafts, etc. Those are the activities that stayed alive. They are still alive (though modern technology tries to depict them as 'old fashioned'). My opinion is: keep those alive and they will keep you (and your beloved ones) alive.  

    I like these principles:
    Don't blame anyone but yourself for not adapting
    You can't get anywhere by only looking backwards
    and I want to add: be to others like you want to be treated yourself.
     
    Chris Kott
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    I'd like to echo the idea that children are adaptable, and I think that it's we adults that need to be cognizant of where our heads are at, for the most part.

    I think the identity politics need to go. Chop that stuff right down to the roots. No, better yet, dig those roots up, all of them, and put them on the concrete to dry out and die. We don't need any of that, ever again.

    I think the reason adults are less adaptable than their children is that we are so tied up in defending the personae we have adopted, the faces we show the outer world. If I hold that certain ideas are true because of my gender, the colour of my skin, my job, my demographic, or any aspect of my heritage or traditional/cultural/religious beliefs, that is reason enough to fight anyone who says our perspective is wrong.

    If I feel that other ideas threaten my position, I could feel that they also threaten my identity. If I am not what I think I am, what am I, then? It taps right into base existential terror.

    That is ego, and we need to let it go. That's how we evolve, and that's the best way to adapt. Not completely, of course, but we need to be self-aware enough to realise what ego-driven behaviours might be counterproductive to our intents and examine why we would subconsciously sabotage our own efforts.

    We need to let go of the false security of mob mentality and this fake tribalism and become assured in ourselves and our capabilities.

    We need to know and believe in ourselves, and at the same time, allow for the possibility that others exist, and see and do things differently than us without seeing that as a threat.

    Instead of stressing that which divides us, we need to emphasize that which we hold in common, and build upon it.

    Honestly, I think Adaptation is simply survivalism and prepping minus the unproductive identity issues and fear.

    I really hope that wherever I settle, that I have a connection to a group of avid hunters within the community, especially if I don't hunt. Should we be relying on a local militia rather than law enforcement, I hope that there are people who would prefer to step into the role of protection and defense so that I can focus on building and feeding people.

    But we don't need a militant populace. We need a self-sufficient populace. We need the local-level communities to function effectively as the citizens' safety net, and we need to weave that net with threads of not only financial, but personal civic social support; we need to make sure people that need money get it, but we also need to build the bonds of social cohesion thicker and tighter.

    To my mind, that's Adaptation. We live in community already, it's just usually shitty community. I think that the first step would be reaching out to neighbours and the local community at large, to whatever extent possible, to find like-minded individuals. If this isn't possible, relocation to somewhere it is might be a good idea.

    We have historically lived in larger-than-family-sized groups for good reason. Trying to make a go of it on one's own is counterproductive to progress in the long term, however you think about it. Ultimately, even just to refresh the gene pool, a group needs to look to the outside. Better, I think, to do outreach now, to reach common ground with as many people as possible who will stand with us rather than to try to make a go of it alone.

    In this light, prepping and survivalism are the hurried panic ahead of a natural disaster, where Adaptation involves work far in advance of any idea of disaster, building the social fabric so it's bulletproof, bombproof, resilient and adaptive to any threat.

    I am so glad this thread reopened.

    -CK
     
    this is supposed to be a surprise, but it smells like a tiny ad:
    Self-Sufficiency in MO -- 10 acres of Eden, looking for a renter who can utilize and appreciate it.
    https://permies.com/t/95939/Sufficiency-MO-acres-Eden-renter
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