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Shed/barn for critter food storage

 
Cj Sloane
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I think my #1 problem ATM is the lack of a barn. I've got 2 shelter logic sheds that keep collapsing due to poor design. Even if I solved my problem of harvesting my own feed for the cows/sheep/pigs/chickens I need a secure, weatherproof place to store it all. I need to store hay, apples, processed acorns and so on. Honestly, it be awesome to store several months worth of feed, even a years worth. Old time farmers used to store 2 years worth of feed for emergencies - now that's resilience!!!

My choices are building a wooden self built structure or a pre-fab metal building like this:
.

The benefit to the wooden one is it'll probably be cheaper and we already have used metal roofing. I worry the final touches on it will never happen and get added to the "honey do" list. The benefit to a metal one is that it'll be up and done and that'll be it.

Thought and comments please.
 
Josey Hains
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What are you going to use it for? Only food storage? Get a sea can.
They use them a lot here since you can secure them from theft and mice, moisture etc.
 
Cj Sloane
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I did think about that... Hubby would like a place to park/work on his truck I would like a place to hang a hog.

I'll add that to my mental Queue.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
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What is the budget?

What do you really want to have, work in and rely on?

Are aesthetics of any consequence or just cost and speed of raising?

Time line, as you lived this long without one...take your time and facilitate exactly what you want something to think about?

Do you have trees resources that can be made into lumber?

Old barns can costs as little as $5000 to free, if you just look for an average then $10K to $30K to relocate...sometimes much less.

How much of the work can you do yourself?



 
Cj Sloane
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Jay C. White Cloud wrote:What is the budget?
What do you really want to have, work in and rely on?
Are aesthetics of any consequence or just cost and speed of raising?
Time line, as you lived this long without one...take your time and facilitate exactly what you want something to think about?
Do you have trees resources that can be made into lumber?
Old barns can costs as little as $5000 to free, if you just look for an average then $10K to $30K to relocate...sometimes much less.
How much of the work can you do yourself?


Soooo many questions! If I'm going to continue with cows, I need to store at least 500 small square bales.
I have a bazillion trees. I asked my husband about a pole barn or log cabin like structure - he said no way!
My BIL is a master carpenter so we could do it all ourselves if he took a working vacation (he framed our house 19 years ago).

I think 10K is my budget for a metal one which could be financed. Cash up front? I guess half that. Like I said we already have metal roofing.
Aesthetics is a tricky one. I still the utility in a the metal pre-fabs but... I did go to art school.
 
                    
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Hi CJ. I have a suggestion that you might like to consider. Since your in VT, be aware of your 'snow load' on the roof of whatever type barn you build. Since your BIL is a carpenter, he will probably suggest a fairly steep roof, be quick to agree with that. A steep roof sheds the snow easier, but typically on your average barn you will see 'cripples' built into the wall/ceiling/roof structure, those cripples are required to keep your barn from 'falling in'. Did you notice I said 'wall/ceiling/roof'...I listed all 3 things that must be tied together to handle heavy snow loads, "any board you nail (to resist wiggling loose) must have 3 nails in it", the idea being, a nail thru the cripple into the wall stud, a nail thru the cripple into the ceiling joist, & a nail thru the cripple into the roof rafter...that makes a well secured 'cripple', ~~~when I say 'a nail' I really mean 3 or 4 nails in the nailing zone~~~. Now if you just used a 2 nail cripple...that is just the roof rafter, & the wall stud, then you have only nailed in 2 nailing zones, eventually it will wiggle loose...go for 3 nailing zones if at all possible.

A roof collapse from a heavy snow load is often a result of inadequate securement of the walls themselves, for example when the roof collapses, it is because the walls that hold the roof up actually buckled under the extra weight. And the walls typically are well secured to the ground, {but if not well secured at the foundation, the wall will blow out at the foundation} and typically fairly strong standing upright, {select wall studs that do not have structural problems like a large knot that is 2/3 of the board} but where the wall meets the roof, if not well crippled, the walls will push outward or inward (depending which way the wind is blowing) and break, the heavy roof caves in immediately. This is why most barns have a ceiling joist, often used as a loft floor...to tie together the wiggly top of the left wall to the wiggly top of the right wall, this is important to incorporate the cripples at the joint of the wall, ceiling joist, & roof rafter all 3 points. You could use steel cables from the left wall to the right wall, to hold them together, but wooden ceiling joists are almost always less expensive than substantial steel cable. If you use steel cables, you should still tie the cable into the cripples (3 point securement). There are also roof trusses that should be considered, and if your planning on hanging a hog, or lifting other heavy things, I would strengthen that work area specifically with an extra cripple/wall stud/ceiling joist/roof trusses/roof rafter.

The reason I mentioned this is because about 25 years ago we had a 24" heavy wet snow event. And there are a good number of contract chicken raisers in my county, well, long story short, there were quite a lot of those broiler houses that fell in. Sure they were often 'old', all of them had a low pitched metal roof (which did not shed snow), and their ceiling joists were sparse, or inadequate, most of them rarely used cripples like the one I have described.

If your not familiar with the proper foundation that supports the wall, you will need to learn more about that. Your BIL will know about wall footings, and you want yours pretty deep, even if you use posts in ground, you should use cripples in a barn.

james beam

 
Cj Sloane
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Thanks for all that info James. I will not be involved with engineering any of this! I leave that to either my BIL or the company that makes the prefab metal barns. Were the barns that collapsed metal? The pitch on the garage type ones aren't super steep. The metal barns look a little steeper.

We are probably not going to be able to dig too far down for footings as the best spot is all ledge.

I've got several months to mull this over.

The only issue we've every had with an outbuilding was that a wall fell over in the sheep's 3-sided shelter. Fell over isn't really accurate. All night long we heard an odd pounding noise. The ram was, well, ramming one of the walls and it eventually gave way. That was a fun morning! My husband left for work a 6, came back in the house and said, "the ram knocked down a wall, all the sheep and the new dog were out, gotta go, bye!"
 
                    
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Hi CJ, Yes wood framed, open span sheet iron broiler houses.~~~just google 'broiler houses' and you should get some pictures, and even tho your not an engineer, you might like to read a failure report just for fun, this one demonstrates causes of failure, some of these failures were simply not obvious to the farmer...until it became dangerous. https://www.poultryventilation.com/sites/default/files/documents/structure.pdf I'm glad you caught on that I'm not an engineer either, and yet I was able to build my own single level 20X60 barn, and along the way, a real carpenter told me about the '3 points thing' and I thought I would share.

But I did spend a lot of time in my barn working, and nothing will un-nerve you quicker than 60 mph wind gusts ramming the walls of your new structure. The thing is, a well informed person, can build an efficient structure, at reasonable cost...it is those 'surprize expenses' that can really bite into your budget, that is why I've made a few suggestions so you can reasonably think about the routine expenses involved in making a sound structure. Once you decide on your barn type, hopefully you will get some related responses by people with various experience in the direction you intend.

Would you believe I was helping a neighbor build a house a few years ago, on the day the prefab roof trusses arrived, the first thing I did was count the trusses. And I looked, and I scratched my head, and I said...hey what does your plan call for-- trusses on 16" centers? The owner gave me his regular blank look as it became obvious that he had ordered about $1000.00 too much of trusses, lets just say, since I was part of the crew that was getting the things up there, I wasn't about to put more up than we needed. The thing about custom roof trusses, once you order them, they are yours whether they are part of the roof or sitting in the driveway.

james beam
 
Cj Sloane
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james beam wrote:Hi CJ, Yes wood framed, open span sheet iron broiler houses.~


Ah, but not the metal pre-fab ones with the square tubing - that the kind I'm thinking about.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
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I asked my husband about a pole barn or log cabin like structure - he said no way!
My BIL is a master carpenter so we could do it all ourselves if he took a working vacation (he framed our house 19 years ago).



I was confused by this section...no log cabin...and...no pole barn...

But he is o.k. with a metal prefab?

I can share that every company that I know that sells them doesn't have a single thing bad to say about them...

They can be perceived as very fast to build (folks do not consider the larger industrial side to these buildings and the environmental impact they have...nor the huge industries that are behind them.) It takes most of the Timberwrights I work with (or have trained) about a month to two months of 8 hour days to cut the average 18 x24 (maybe a few forms of 30x40) barn frame depending on design, tree species, etc. They all take about a day to a week depending on individual factors to put up. In my youth, working with Old Order Amish, it took a crew of 60 1 day to raise and one day to side and roof a 42x56...and it was actually easy work with much love all around. The frame took three months to cut working just with hand tools.
 
Cj Sloane
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Jay C. White Cloud wrote:
I was confused by this section...no log cabin...and...no pole barn...

But he is o.k. with a metal prefab?


He's not super OK with metal prefab. I lean that way to get a completed building relatively quickly which I could finance through the company I purchase from.

He only said no to log cabin style - we didn't really talk about pole barns. BIL did stick frame construction in NJ. Our house had way more stringent specs than he was used to but that was fine.

Since we're in VT, maybe you could pm me some names of people who build and I could get a quote or 2. We're just south of Rutland.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
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Gosh Cj our cooperative little group works down there couple times a year... I don't need to PM unless really want me to. Part of me being on the forum is to help folks like you through the entire process of things just so other can learn for it. The average timber frame cost $20 to $40 dollars per square foot (usually plus material costs but not allways) give of take $5 either way on average. What I and some of the folks I have worked with on "tight budgets" is take what they can afford and are looking to do and work backwards from that budget. If BIL is (or has been a carpenter) then him timber framing this project of yours (with help if he wants it) would be easier than him fall'n of the couch.

Let me know if you would like to explore this (or any option) further...I am watching this thread and most of your posts in general.

Regards,

j
 
Cj Sloane
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Taking a quick break from this amazing weather...

Does your group fell trees for the timber? That could be helpful even if it didn't save $. The property is mostly in the current use program but there are plenty of trees in the excluded areas available & you can take out a few trees here & there even in the current use areas.

Give me a heads up next time you're in the area.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
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Does your group fell trees for the timber?


Yes we do, for some projects in our area, and/or that warrant this type of attention.

The property is mostly in the current use program but there are plenty of trees in the excluded areas available & you can take out a few trees here & there even in the current use areas.

Give me a heads up next time you're in the area.


Send me a PM or email, should you like to explore working with us in more detail. I would love to be of assistance at any level, and post our progress here at Permies.

Warm Regards,

j
 
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