I just dropped the price of
the permaculture playing cards
for a wee bit.

 

 

uses include:
- infecting brains with permaculture
- convincing folks that you are not crazy
- gift giving obligations
- stocking stuffer
- gambling distraction
- an hour or two of reading
- find the needle
- find the 26 hidden names

clickity-click-click

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Geord Blackwell
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Location: Italy/US
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Hello everyone,

First post here. I split my time between the US and Italy (I am a US citizen, wife is Italian). We just bought a property in the Romagna region of Italy (zone 9). About 13 acres, planted mainly in Sangiovese and Trebbiano, some olive trees, and some pasture. The property is gently sloped to moderately sloped, north facing, at low elevation. I am interested in any resources or references available for this region. The purpose of this thread is just to make myself known and reach out to anyone living in the area. I would be very interested in hearing about what approaches have been most successful for you, as well as any challenges you face with your comune in getting approval for various projects. grazie. geordie.
 
William James
gardener
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Location: Northern Italy
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These people are near you. I took a PDC with them. Bagno di Romagna/Cesena. Highly recommended.
http://www.autosufficienza.com/

Sending something to the Instituta di permacultura also would help. Maybe you have some permie neighbors you didn't know were there.
http://www.permacultura.it/
http://www.permacultura.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=87&Itemid=63

It can't hurt to reach out and see if something takes hold.
William
 
William James
gardener
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Location: Northern Italy
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PS: Your ability to interact successfully with the local government depends on:
1. How remote you are. More remote=more they let you do what you want. In those cases it's good to have someone on your side who can interface with the comune. Look for a Geometra - they usually have daily dealings with the permit office, the uffico tecnico.

2. How accomodating your town government is. More accomodating=more they let you do what you want.

3. How busybody your neighbors are. Most infractions are a result of a neighbor calling you into the local police for something or other. The local police have better things to do than to spy on land owners and they can be accommodating, inasmuch as they can be. It's when someone calls something in when the criminal cases start happening, because at that point the police are required to act according to the law.

All this being said: my personal take on the whole thing (being that I'm not remote, the local government are -cough- jerks, and the neighbors are busybodies) I strive for bulletproof projects that either don't need approval, can get approval easily (so why wouldn't you when the alternative is jail or a big fine), or I just find other ways to achieve the original goal.

Striving to be bulletproof makes you find creative solutions, so it's not so bad for your mental exercise. Plus your solutions are more universal, so they can be applied even where the bureaucratic conditions are not favorable, so you can share the wealth.

Two things to keep in mind:
--Abuso edilizio (even a small chicken shack) is a criminal offense. That's why the town government wants a geologist to sign off on everything, so they don't have to take any responsibility for permitting anything.
--Scarico/deposito abusivo - so that means any construction waste you might find interesting, the neighbor's lawn clippings, a gardener's waste, is also punishable by law. In these cases you really want the town to know what you're doing and why.

William
 
Geord Blackwell
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Location: Italy/US
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Thanks William. Good info. My wife is a local so that helps a lot, but we've been living in an apartment so never had to deal with these types of issues. We looked for a place for many years and I heard a lot of stories along the way about people having to tear things down, even the smallest structures. The level of restrictions is a hard thing to adjust to if you are used to the more laissez-faire approach of rural US/Canada. One thing I was looking for during our property hunt is existing out buildings. This property has a fienile and pollaio, as well as a few "off the books" sheds the prior owner put up. The prior owner was a fourth generation owner of the property so may have had a bit more leeway due to connections with the comune and/or neighbors. We are not remote, but not in the city either- about 10k from a city of 60k near a frazione of about 7k. It's mostly vineyards, olives and orchards, right at the start of the Appenine foothills.

Regarding your comment about scarico abusivo, do you mean it is illegal to take the waste? without permission of the owner or without permission from the comune?
 
William James
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Geord Blackwell wrote:
Regarding your comment about scarico abusivo, do you mean it is illegal to take the waste? without permission of the owner or without permission from the comune?


Here's what we discovered:
We were asking a gardener to dump his tree branches on our property in a row. The row was about 80 meters long. We intended to just let it grow over, but then we went to the agricultural assistants (CIA, Coldiretti) and they told us that

a) All urban waste needs to be collected and taken to the appropriate collection areas (Isola ecologica) and the cost is paid by the gardener. Same for individuals, except the cost is included in their taxes.
b) Gardeners can stock and chip their own waste within certain limits, but they have to be registered.
c) Theoretically, the 'waste' could be a sottoprodotto of the gardener, but you would have to pay them with an invoice.
d) you would need some documenti di trasporto for the waste.
e) if it's your own trees you're cutting, you would need a permit that documents the kinds of trees, how many, and whatnot (the associations can do that document for you).

We just went ahead and paid to have it all turned into chip and called it a day. It would have cost nearly the same to have purchased the chip directly.

I recently found a loophole, whereby you can do exactly as we were doing, except you need to notify the town government and get authorization. I haven't yet followed up on that but we're planning to do that.

William
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://stoves2.com
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