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How many coyotes can one LGD take?

 
elle sagenev
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We are unsure how many coyotes are in our area but Saturday night they were making a huge racket and we lost our ducks. Husband was estimating 10. I'm not sure. Sounded like quite a few. We can lock our poultry up. We should have been but I do so enjoy letting the ducks stay by the ponds we have. Anyway, the concern is for us and the kids if it turns out to be a large pack. We have a great pyr and an akbash. Also have a weim but he's old and has the heart of a rabbit. So the question we've been asking ourselves is if we need another LGD. Opinions?
 
Tracy Kuykendall
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The way you ask the question tells your not understanding the way a coyote operates, coyotes very rarely will take on something like a lgd in a head on confrontation, if a group does take one on generally they will show fight just long enough to entice the dog to give chase the retreat, in the process of giving chase he would be ambushed from the rear, just enough to inflict a small amount of damage and to cause him to give chase to the new threat and the maneuvering starts again, this is repeated until the dog is injured and broken down enough to not be a threat. The reason most lgd' are effective is they don't pursueanymore than necessary for the threat to go away from their herd. Coyotes also predate by similar methods, they will distract and worry the dog long enough for its mate to backdoor the intended victim and get away. Generally depending on prey availability and coyote density, there should be an alpha breeding pair and sometimes one or two females from last seasons litter in a territory. I don't know just what the numbers are or how they're structured in your area, without being able to be there myself the best recommendation I have is to employ as many deterrents as you have available to you, shoot coyotes when the oppurtunity presents itself, and if the problem increases find a knowledgable predator control person to help you out. In the event you do decide to get outside help a couple of things to help, don't let anyone use snares or Conibears on your fences, they can't tell the difference between your animals or a coyote and will kill either. Trying to eradicate coyotes will not work and may actually make the problem worse, if you remove the alpha pair from an area you create a void that will be filled and could be filled by 2-3 new pairs potentially doubling or more the coyotes in the area, increasing predation on prey species and increasing the need to include your livestock to their list.
 
Tracy Kuykendall
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Sorry! I didn't proofread my henpecking before posting, if you need clarification on any of my rambling feel free to ask.
 
elle sagenev
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Well I did know that you want more than one so the coyotes can't sneak up from behind. I admit we've never dealt with coyote before. They were really close to the house and we were outside making noise at the time. I feel like that was a bit brave and that worries me. I want to make sure if there is a large pack nearby we have enough protection to not make it an issue for us. We will shoot them, of course, if we see them.
 
Jd Gonzalez
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I'd say it is time to use deadly force if they present a risk to your family and your animals.
 
Lee Daniels
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I'd suggest trapping them. Traps work much better than hunting when its dark. Foot holds would be the non-lethal piece of gear to use. If your dog was caught in a foot hold, it would sit down and wait for you to release it. Use a trap with a 1/4" offset (gap when the jaws are closed) That will greatly reduce the chance of injury to the animal... and YOUR dog.

Another option is to ask around. Maybe a local trapper/hunter can help you out. Also know that it is past trapping season, you will need to check with WY game department and see what permit you need to trap them.

 
John Wolfram
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Lee Daniels wrote:Another option is to ask around. Maybe a local trapper/hunter can help you out. Also know that it is past trapping season, you will need to check with WY game department and see what permit you need to trap them.

While the trapping season for furbearers might be over, I believe coyotes are excluded from that list. As you suggested, it's probably best to ask before hand. In my experience, as long as you're not asking to take "big game" out of season, most permit requests get rubber stamped.
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/wgfd-1000492.aspx
 
Lion Gladden
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As Tracy suggested, it's important to understand that coyotes tend to attack in packs. Although only one coyote will generally show itself at a time to lure the dogs.

Back in CO, our land had a decent sized coyote pack. Actually there may have been more than one pack. Probably an alpha pair, 2-3 older pups and the new year's crop of pups. By the voices we heard at night, I'd say we had about 6-15 coyotes at any one time. (On 40 acres.)

At the time we had 2 dogs (the third dog came around just before we moved back to disgusting FL). Between the 2 dogs we never really worried about the coyotes. On the one occasion we actually saw one (I believe it was the male alpha) a few shotgun blasts in the air sent it scurrying.

One thing we did encourage was a strong pack mentality between our dogs, so that they wouldn't try to take a predator alone. Our dogs were also inclined to stay near us as possible, which helped. The third dog was actually a meditated choice to allow the dogs to triangulate attacks, especially in the case of puma, bobcat and bear, which were also a problem in the area.

More than how many dogs you have, I'd say that age, breed inclinations (are they hunters or guarders, etc) and personality factors play a big part.

I'd also say that your own personal preparation is important. My husband didn't want me out in the woods without a gun or at least a machete. A compressed air horn is also a great tool both for signalling that you're in danger and for chasing away predators.
 
elle sagenev
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Lion Gladden wrote:As Tracy suggested, it's important to understand that coyotes tend to attack in packs. Although only one coyote will generally show itself at a time to lure the dogs.

Back in CO, our land had a decent sized coyote pack. Actually there may have been more than one pack. Probably an alpha pair, 2-3 older pups and the new year's crop of pups. By the voices we heard at night, I'd say we had about 6-15 coyotes at any one time. (On 40 acres.)

At the time we had 2 dogs (the third dog came around just before we moved back to disgusting FL). Between the 2 dogs we never really worried about the coyotes. On the one occasion we actually saw one (I believe it was the male alpha) a few shotgun blasts in the air sent it scurrying.

One thing we did encourage was a strong pack mentality between our dogs, so that they wouldn't try to take a predator alone. Our dogs were also inclined to stay near us as possible, which helped. The third dog was actually a meditated choice to allow the dogs to triangulate attacks, especially in the case of puma, bobcat and bear, which were also a problem in the area.

More than how many dogs you have, I'd say that age, breed inclinations (are they hunters or guarders, etc) and personality factors play a big part.

I'd also say that your own personal preparation is important. My husband didn't want me out in the woods without a gun or at least a machete. A compressed air horn is also a great tool both for signalling that you're in danger and for chasing away predators.


Well our pyr very much stays by me when we are out. He's particularly good about it when he can tell I'm afraid. Our akbash is just a doof. I love him but he's a doofus. He will be 3 this year but he's still romping about like a pup. He's not he brightest bulb in the box but we adore him, he's also massively huge and I hope he would follow the signals of our older pyr. The weim wouldn't do anything unless he absolutely had to, I can pretty much guarantee that. He won't even hunt because it takes too much energy and he'd rather be laying around doing nothing. However, he's a good barker and you can rely on him not to run off, since he's so lazy. I've taken him out with me a few times just on pure reliability. The pyr chases cars so he's not quite as reliable and the akbash will wander away if you don't keep an eye on him.

So I'd say I have 1 dog I could rely on in a coyote crisis and that's it. The other 2 are pretty much just pets.

I think we will get another LGD. I'd hoped to wait until our weim was dead (he' 11 and starting to look rather old) but I suppose we've had 6 dogs before so 4 is nothing really.
 
Lion Gladden
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Ours are 3 pit mixes - a Boxer, an Aussie shepherd or something (?) and a Dane. Of the three, the Aussie is the most inclined to herd/guard animals, while the Boxer is most inclined to herd/guard people. The Boxer is the only one we raised from a pup, so that may have a factor in his human centric ways.

I think it's important to honor our dogs with a proper retirement where nothing is expected of them other than to enjoy treats, pets and cuddles near the fireplace. If you need a new working dog, by all means introduce one, I'm sure your elder dog won't resent it so long as s/he gets time for special loving.

I understand Pyrs are great dogs and I also adore most molosser breeds, but more than anything I believe in getting rescues whether purebred or not.
 
Cj Sloane
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elle sagenev wrote:We are unsure how many coyotes are in our area but Saturday night they were making a huge racket and we lost our ducks.
...
We have a great pyr and an akbash.


I'm really surprised the coyotes attacked and killed ducks with 2 LGDs on site. Normally the sound of 2 barking is enough to keep coyotes away. Were the dogs in the duck paddock? Just outside? Could you give more details of the attack?

We lost 3 out of 4 sheep once with an LGD in the paddock but he wasn't fully mature at 18 months and only 1 is no match for a pack.

We now have 3 Maremmas and the barking has convinced the coyotes that there are easier meals elsewhere and bears stay away too despite the strong smell of honey.
 
elle sagenev
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Cj Verde wrote:
elle sagenev wrote:We are unsure how many coyotes are in our area but Saturday night they were making a huge racket and we lost our ducks.
...
We have a great pyr and an akbash.


I'm really surprised the coyotes attacked and killed ducks with 2 LGDs on site. Normally the sound of 2 barking is enough to keep coyotes away. Were the dogs in the duck paddock? Just outside? Could you give more details of the attack?

We lost 3 out of 4 sheep once with an LGD in the paddock but he wasn't fully mature at 18 months and only 1 is no match for a pack.

We now have 3 Maremmas and the barking has convinced the coyotes that there are easier meals elsewhere and bears stay away too despite the strong smell of honey.


The dogs sleep inside with us................................. Yup. I know. We house petted them. So the dogs weren't outside when the ducks were taken. We brought them outside after we heard the pack yelling.
 
Lee Daniels
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I do realize my statement may not be popular here, BUT traps work every second they are in the ground. Traps have far less up keep than a dog. And as you know, dogs sleeping inside are not protecting your critters.

Disclaimer, I'm pretty much anti dog. I have lost more chickens to domestic dogs than all my area's wild predators combined -birds of prey included. If you're not holding the leash... then its a coyote.

- L. Daniels
 
elle sagenev
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Lee Daniels wrote:I do realize my statement may not be popular here, BUT traps work every second they are in the ground. Traps have far less up keep than a dog. And as you know, dogs sleeping inside are not protecting your critters.

Disclaimer, I'm pretty much anti dog. I have lost more chickens to domestic dogs than all my area's wild predators combined -birds of prey included. If you're not holding the leash... then its a coyote.

- L. Daniels


My dogs have killed more birds than any other predator as well. But I'm a dog person so dogs are something we will have no matter what.
 
Cj Sloane
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elle sagenev wrote:
The dogs sleep inside with us................................. Yup. I know. We house petted them. So the dogs weren't outside when the ducks were taken. We brought them outside after we heard the pack yelling.


Ah ha! That explains it!!!

If you can keep them outside at night without their barking driving you or the neighbors nuts that'll do it. They may not want to sleep inside after they get used to the outside - it depends on the dog. I've found females really like to hang around the house.

We do tend to keep our 6 month old in the house at night because although he'll bark, the Australian Shepherd taught him you bark while standing on the deck instead of investigating... preferably under our bedroom window...
 
Cj Sloane
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Lee Daniels wrote:I have lost more chickens to domestic dogs than all my area's wild predators combined -birds of prey included. If you're not holding the leash... then its a coyote.
- L. Daniels


LGDs generally don't kill poultry except by accident when young. That's the great thing about them. That's why they are used to protect endangered penguins: http://www.livescience.com/37097-dogs-protect-endangered-penguins.html
 
Lee Daniels
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elle sagenev wrote:But I'm a dog person...


My suggestion then, a dog and coyote proof duck coop and enclosure. I have a 8 chickens left, in a 6x8 coop with one length of Premier electric chicken fencing, but not electrified. Never had a dog or coyote issue at night. I know they sniff around. I see them on my game cameras. My smaller chicken yard exit door is always open. Yes anything could get in. I don't have racoon, opossum, or snakes locally. There are skunks around, but they haven't become an issue.

One dog will alert you and your kids to another dog's presence. I'm thinking day time, but even when your family is out running around at night, your dog will smell the other and respond. Giving you and kids time to run away before a coyote attacks - very, very, rare I'd like to add, but possible, I guess.

Hope you solve your problem. I know the first time I lost chickens to an owl... (I left the man door open and was late getting home, the owl flew right in and started biting of my hens heads off. I pulled in to see the owl flying out of my coop, I knew it would be bad. Lost 7 of 12) I was on an info search to prevent it from ever happening again.

Good Luck - L. Daniels
 
Tracy Kuykendall
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LGDs generally don't kill poultry except by accident when young. That's the great thing about them. That's why they are used to protect endangered penguins: http://www.livescience.com/37097-dogs-protect-endangered-penguins.html

This is a very general and broad statement that (IMO) needs some clarification dogs whether lgd or purse poodles have instinctual triggers, unfortunately most fowl seem to have the ability to set these triggers off, no dog should be trusted to do unattended guard duty without supervision until they've proven their trustworthiness. FYI , another animal that has the unique ability to set off the chase response in dogs are blackbuck antelope and armadillos, just a tidbit of info should any readers move next door to an exotic game ranch or a part of the world that has an armadillo population.
 
Lee Daniels
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Change variables to constants. If there aren't any dogs around - mine, neighbors, or wild - then my chickens have much less of a chance of dieing by dogs.

- L. Daniels
 
Su Ba
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My farm watch dog sleeps outside at night. It's during night that I wish him to chase away the feral pigs, stray dogs, and sticky-fingered humans. Having him sleep indoors defeats the purpose of having a farm watchdog, at my farm. Just about every night he will let out about 10-20 seconds of barking. Pigs or dogs most likely. If he persists for more than that, we get up and use the high powered spotlight to scan the property. Twice now we've found a strange truck parked along our front property line....which suddenly pulls away when the spotlight gets used. Good dog, Willie! Warned us about another one.

We also have two good sized donkeys in with the sheep flock now. We've had bands of loose dogs get around Willie before we've gotten to the scene, and they've successfully taken down sheep in spite of Willie's efforts. With the help of the two donkeys, we haven't lost a sheep since their arrival. Two donkeys plus one dog has been too much for the dog packs.

We trap wild dogs, and abandoned dogs, using a live trap. It works for pigs too. If the dog is wild, it's shot while still in the trap. If abandoned and tame, it's turned over to an animal rescue facility.

You may ask why we opted for two donkeys instead of two livestock guardian dogs. Barking. Donkeys are quiet at night. Dogs, doing their job, bark. Our Willie is not a big barker. Nor a prolonged barker. So when he barks it's something serious. Personally I didn't want to deal with a lot of barking at night. Neither do the neighbors. My neighbors have told me that they appreciate Willie's presence and his lack of prolonged barking. I guess Willie barks just the right amount to keep everyone happy around here.
 
Lee Daniels
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yep - donkeys work well too - and donkey manure is more useful than dog poo.

- L. Daniels
 
elle sagenev
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Cj Verde wrote:
Lee Daniels wrote:I have lost more chickens to domestic dogs than all my area's wild predators combined -birds of prey included. If you're not holding the leash... then its a coyote.
- L. Daniels


LGDs generally don't kill poultry except by accident when young. That's the great thing about them. That's why they are used to protect endangered penguins: http://www.livescience.com/37097-dogs-protect-endangered-penguins.html


I don't know that I agree and I don't think the pyr rescue we are involved with would agree with that either. Just like anything, they have to be trained at least a bit.
 
elle sagenev
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Lee Daniels wrote:
elle sagenev wrote:But I'm a dog person...


My suggestion then, a dog and coyote proof duck coop and enclosure. I have a 8 chickens left, in a 6x8 coop with one length of Premier electric chicken fencing, but not electrified. Never had a dog or coyote issue at night. I know they sniff around. I see them on my game cameras. My smaller chicken yard exit door is always open. Yes anything could get in. I don't have racoon, opossum, or snakes locally. There are skunks around, but they haven't become an issue.

One dog will alert you and your kids to another dog's presence. I'm thinking day time, but even when your family is out running around at night, your dog will smell the other and respond. Giving you and kids time to run away before a coyote attacks - very, very, rare I'd like to add, but possible, I guess.

Hope you solve your problem. I know the first time I lost chickens to an owl... (I left the man door open and was late getting home, the owl flew right in and started biting of my hens heads off. I pulled in to see the owl flying out of my coop, I knew it would be bad. Lost 7 of 12) I was on an info search to prevent it from ever happening again.

Good Luck - L. Daniels


Our coop is great actually. The ducks just refuse to go back to it when they nest. I've tried to herd the ducks back before. It doesn't work.

I'm outside in the dark a lot. I'm kind of more worried about me. :P Though I'd rather not lose any more ducks.
 
Lee Daniels
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elle sagenev wrote:....Though I'd rather not lose any more ducks.


The problem is the solution. Dumb ducks are eaten and smart ducks live to reproduce. - Not what you want to hear, but true in the end.

- L. Daniels
 
Cj Sloane
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Lee Daniels wrote:
yep - donkeys work well too - and donkey manure is more useful than dog poo.

- L. Daniels


Donkeys only protect against the canine family. They aren't helpful against feline predators or bears or give warnings against birds of prey.
 
Lee Daniels
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Cj Verde wrote:
Lee Daniels wrote:
yep - donkeys work well too - and donkey manure is more useful than dog poo.

- L. Daniels


Donkeys only protect against the canine family. They aren't helpful against feline predators or bears or give warnings against birds of prey.


That was supposed to be funny. Guess I should have added a smiley face, BUT (hahaha) I partially disagree and offer this local story as proof of donkey, maybe it was a mule, usefulness controlling feline depredation.

One HOT August night, about 2 am, old farmer/rancher is awaken by the sound of this donkey (maybe a mule) kicking the shit out of his metal sided barn/lean to shelter. Old boy heads out buck naked with his flash light and gun. Because that is how we respond to bumps in the night on the farm lol. So old boy heads out with his flash light. Sees the donkey/mule kicking away and hears and/or sees something in the barn. Side steps and shines in to see a huge pair of eyes in the barn rafters. End result is a dead cougar. Every year cougars are killed around here stalking peoples pet horses. Donkey/Mule was very good alarm I'd say. :)

- L. Daniels
 
Melissa Nicole
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There is a ten pack of coyotes where I live that has been going around and decimating other peoples poultry flocks. For my LGD's I have a 5 pack, I always run at least three outside at night. They are "house dogs" that are required to work but not necessarily every night although they usually want to.

I am not sure how many coyotes one LGD can handle, it would depend on the dog and the coyotes, too many variable factors to even try to answer that. Personally I prefer to be over dogged than under dogged, the larger the defensive presence encourages predators to seek thier meals elsewhere. It also means less stress on the working dogs and I think it can help them be in better condition for if and when they do have to physically draw the line.

As far as dogs and birds, well that is all I currently use the dogs to protect, ducks, geese, and chickens. Yes you have to train them to be extra gentle when they are young, they don't always come preset. Some definitely take more patience than others. My four legged "problem child/wiggle ox" that acted very inappropriate towards the birds during his adolescence and was not trusted around them at all until he got his brains when he was about two and a half years old. Since then, he just turned five, he has turned into second in rank of the "I Love My Birdies" squad. He has appointed himself the primary guardian of hens that are brooding out chicks. Once he even tried to break up a fight between two ganders which he quickly realized was a mistake when they turned and latched onto him and started wing flogging him. He didn't try to hurt them them, he just tried to get them to turn him loose.

There is absolutely no way that I would be able to free range my birds where I live without dogs to protect them. I have witnessed the geese sounding off and alerting the dogs to something they need to bark at several times. I can also tell when a broody hen has chicks hatching out under her cause the dogs get extra guardy and barky about a day before the first pips. As far as predator losses and dog losses I don't have those. Also the "predator" that my dogs have had to get into it with the most are other peoples domestic dogs.
 
K Harris
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True Story..........1960, when I was 10 yo I lived a year on my uncles 300 acre farm on the plains of NE Colorado, farmed and had chickens, ducks, geese, rabbits, turkeys, pigs, calves, dairy cattle. Coyotes were a big problem. Uncle had a flock of Guinea Fowl that roosted high up on top of the chicken coop, trees, or barns every night and made a huge racket anytime they spotted a predator, they were our "watch dogs". We had 2 medium sized collies, Boots - 12 yo female, Trixie - Boots 5 yo daughter. Usually, but not always they patrolled together and kept the coyotes at bay, occasionally killing one. One day we found Boots dead (killed by a pack of coyotes) out in a field with Trixie lying beside her. Next morning we found 5 dead coyotes scattered all over the fields. Don't know if this answers your question, but it should give you a clue as to what 1 pissed off, EXPERIENCED, motivated collie can do to a pack of coyotes.

Story 2.....same farm. A few years before I arrived, some of the other farmers {not my uncle) had hired a professional to come in and take care of the coyote problem. He brought in a pack of large greyhounds and killed a lot of coyotes. However he left 1 black greyhound behind when he left. This lone greyhound was worse than all of the coyotes put together. A real pleasure killer. He was gun wise and man wise, and had no fear of either. Kept just out of shooting range, zigged and zagged when he ran and hit the gullies, ditches, and other cover when he was being shot at. None of our dogs had a chance of catching him. 22LR, 22WMR, and shotguns did not have enough range, didn't have .223 or .556 back then. Took 5 years of going out before sunup and lying on a hill at every opportunity, but my cousin finally got him with a .243 with a scope. Moral of the story- be careful what you choose for an LGD.

Note: Coyotes and wolves kill by slashing the throat, similar to knife fighting. On larger animals they naturally cut the tendons on the back of the legs to slow them down first. For an LGD to be successful he must be fast enough to run the coyote down. Having thick fur around his throat helps him survive the encounter by disguising where his throat actually is, making his opponent miss his target. This doesn't work for bulldog types because they are slower and have had the natural slash to kill instinct bred out and replaced with a grab and crush/smother/don't let them go type of killing method, more like wrestling, not good at engaging multiple targets at the same time.

Get your dogs from people who actually work their dogs at what they were bred for. Most commercial breeders breed for looks, not ability. As a result their dogs are inbred, possibly useless and temperamental

PS. Don't ever feed your dog raw or bloody meat. Ii is not uncommon for dogs that have lived and even played with small animals their whole life to turn into a born again natural killers once they realize that these animals are tasty food and are fun and easy to kill. I have personally seen 3 different dogs (German Shepard, Collie, Husky) turn killer after playing with other animals and accidentally hurting/killing them. Once they tasted the blood they killed and all 3 went crazy and killed repeatedly. Victims were 6 kittens, 22 chickens, 9 piglets.
 
Cj Sloane
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K Harris wrote:...Moral of the story- be careful what you choose for an LGD.

... For an LGD to be successful he must be fast enough to run the coyote down.
...
PS. Don't ever feed your dog raw or bloody meat. Ii is not uncommon for dogs that have lived and even played with small animals their whole life to turn into a born again natural killers once they realize that these animals are tasty food and are fun and easy to kill. I have personally seen 3 different dogs (German Shepard, Collie, Husky) turn killer after playing with other animals and accidentally hurting/killing them. Once they tasted the blood they killed and all 3 went crazy and killed repeatedly. Victims were 6 kittens, 22 chickens, 9 piglets.



I think these are good stories but none of them applies to true LGDs. By that I mean the breeds meant to be livestock guardians like Maremmas, Pyrs, Kuvatz and so on. These dogs are NOT supposed to kill predators, they are supposed to convince them there are easier meals elsewhere. Sometimes that does mean killing though. They are defensive and not offensive.

So a true LGD should NOT have to run down a coyote.

You CAN feed them raw meat, I do and so do others. LGDs know the difference between the animals they are supposed to protect and their food. Also, they will eat still-borns or other dead livestock so as not to draw in predators.
 
K Harris
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Cj Sloane wrote:
K Harris wrote:...Moral of the story- be careful what you choose for an LGD.

... For an LGD to be successful he must be fast enough to run the coyote down.
...
PS. Don't ever feed your dog raw or bloody meat. Ii is not uncommon for dogs that have lived and even played with small animals their whole life to turn into a born again natural killers once they realize that these animals are tasty food and are fun and easy to kill. I have personally seen 3 different dogs (German Shepard, Collie, Husky) turn killer after playing with other animals and accidentally hurting/killing them. Once they tasted the blood they killed and all 3 went crazy and killed repeatedly. Victims were 6 kittens, 22 chickens, 9 piglets.



I think these are good stories but none of them applies to true LGDs. By that I mean the breeds meant to be livestock guardians like Maremmas, Pyrs, Kuvatz and so on. These dogs are NOT supposed to kill predators, they are supposed to convince them there are easier meals elsewhere. Sometimes that does mean killing though. They are defensive and not offensive.

So a true LGD should NOT have to run down a coyote.

You CAN feed them raw meat, I do and so do others. LGDs know the difference between the animals they are supposed to protect and their food. Also, they will eat still-borns or other dead livestock so as not to draw in predators.



Very romantic. Maybe, I'm just too old (65) to understand, but, thanks for trying to set me straight.

I must admit that I don't know anything about these exotic Euro super dogs that are capable of such rational thought. However, I can't imagine a coyote pack being afraid of a dog that can't keep up with them (maybe your LGDs are good ambushers?) and doesn't even try to kill them. Where does your LGDs chase the coyotes off to? Over to your neighbors (neighbors must love that)? And then his LGD chases it back? Repeat until the coyote dies of exhaustion, hunger, or gets so weak your poor ol LGD can finally catch him? Then what? .....I, personally, would prefer an "untrue" LGD that took the coyote out, not tired him out. After his buddies saw what happened, then, they might decide to look for a meal elsewhere. That's probably not PC?

Defensive - offensive? Maybe I misunderstood. It sounded like you said your Euro dogs are defensive. Seems to me, if the coyote comes up to the barnyard looking for a meal he is offensive, and the dog is playing defense. I don't see your point. Are you saying that if the dog attacks the coyote before the coyote attacks one of my animals that the dog is offensive? In that case I definitely don't want a defensive Euro dog. This is not like calling the police after a crime, it's more like crime prevention.

I live in the west, maybe coyotes are a bigger problem here than where you live. There is lots of room for the coyotes to make a living. If he chooses to make a living around the house/barnyard, then he is making a big mistake.

As for as eating stillborn and dead livestock, you got to wonder how they got dead in the first place. Every rancher/farmer that I've ever known would have shot the dog as soon as they saw it eating their livestock. Guess they must be killing a lot of innocent dogs. Maybe you should inform them that the dog is just trying to keep the dead livestock from drawing in predators. Maybe, hire a detective to prove that the coyotes killed it (or other cause of death) and then your dog wisely decided to get rid of the temptation to the coyotes by eating the livestock. (Rancher probably doesn't care - even if the dog is innocent of killing his livestock, the dog has just developed an expensive taste) But wait, why would a dog chase off such nice coyotes that provide them with such tasty meals? Sounds like these Euro dogs may be smarter than their owners. I could go on and on, but the bottom line is........... it is your livestock/pets/$$$ down the drain...........do whatever suits you, but, if your neighbor catches your LGD helping him get rid of his "dead livestock so as not to draw in predators" by eating them and kills your LGD, I'm sure that you will understand that not everyone shares your view.

Also, allowing your dogs to eat raw meat also makes them more vulnerable to 2 legged predators. Picky eaters like cats are hard to poison, dogs are easy. Put a little rat poison in a ball of hamburger meat, 1 for each dog, toss it to the dogs, go drink a beer, and come back and do whatever it is that you came to do. Dogs gulp their meat down and will never detect the poison. You just made it a little easier for the bad guys to take out your dogs noiselessly. Maybe even get you off property while you are taking the dog to the vet to find out whats wrong with the dog. I find it extremely hard to teach a dog not to eat raw meat, but I do my best. I try to teach them to only eat out of their food bowl, period. Haven't had much success with that either. What can you say about animals that think cat poo is candy?

I know that its been a while since I lived on a farm, apparently things have changed a lot and I am a little out of touch, but, when did farm/ranch dogs become acronyms (LGDs) and where did you come up with your definition of what a "true LGD" is? The collies that we had were much larger (tall, skinny, long brown, tan, & white hair) than the collies I see today. They were smart, fast, could go over any fence, and were good at both herding (anything) and protecting. They were also born and raised on the farm so that they considered all of the farm animals as their family/charge. I have trained many dogs and in my experience, females (larger is better) that have had at least 1 litter make for more protective guards. They don't run about as much, except when in heat, and the maternal instinct makes them more likely to fight to the death protecting their family/charge. Most males will beat a retreat, if they can, as soon as they realize that they have lost the fight. To avoid losing my LGD to coyotes, multiple LGDs working together would be my choice for dealing with coyote packs.
 
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K Harris wrote:

I must admit that I don't know anything about these exotic Euro super dogs that are capable of such rational thought. However, I can't imagine a coyote pack being afraid of a dog that can't keep up with them (maybe your LGDs are good ambushers?) and doesn't even try to kill them. Where does your LGDs chase the coyotes off to? Over to your neighbors (neighbors must love that)? And then his LGD chases it back?


The LGDs job isn't to chase or kill predators, it's to convince them there are easier meals elsewhere. We used to have coyotes on the property who would howl with the noon whistle. Our dogs convinced them to leave without killing them. Where did they go? To the land of easier meals.
 
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K Harris wrote:
As for as eating stillborn and dead livestock, you got to wonder how they got dead in the first place. Every rancher/farmer that I've ever known would have shot the dog as soon as they saw it eating their livestock. Guess they must be killing a lot of innocent dogs. Maybe you should inform them that the dog is just trying to keep the dead livestock from drawing in predators.


Anyone who has ever raised livestock for any period of time has had stillborns. We had a live lamb born and a stillborn this year. The LGD was in another paddock. I had to dispose of the stillborn. If the LGD was in the paddock, she may have done it instead of me.

How does a farmer know the dog didn't kill the newborn? I trust 1000 years of breeding and the fact that the dog isn't methodically eating all the newborns.

These dogs don't have "the eye" and they often act submissive - it's the only way they could gain the trust of a newborn animal.

Here's a pic of an LGD next to a day old lamb. No coyote would be stupid enough to jump into that paddock. If he did he would be chase out or killed. That's why this dog never had to go on the offense, her defense if VERY good!

Mandy & Lamb></a><script
 
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I live about 2 miles from town hall and they have a noon whistle.

I live on the side of a mountain and I heard the coyotes moved to the valley, near the river. It's been many years since I heard them. My neighbors have dogs but their not LGDs and they are not the kind of dogs that would kill coyotes either. Plenty of hunter around here but the goal isn't extermination.

Two neighbors have dairy cows but these are Vermont coyotes, unlikely to take down a cow. I have belted galloways and they don't really need protection from coyotes either.
 
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