coconut milk frustrations

Okay. Paul and I are both sensitive to conventional (pasteurized) cow's milk products. Except butter. We tend to be fine with butter.

It's still illegal AFAIK to sell raw milk in Montana and we currently are not producing any at wheaton labs.

While transportation remains relatively cheap (relatively in terms of $ only - not debating enviro impacts here), we enjoy substituting coconut milk and/or coconut fat for cream, sour cream, whipped cream, and milk in our diets and recipes.

Though oh my are the sources (for our locale) loaded with issues!

My favorite, (as I posted about in the Thrive Market thread), has been Thai Kitchen organic full fat.


Though now I am waking up to the word that those cans are not BPA free.

Native Forest Organic coconut milk (Amazon affiliate link for the empire right there) claims to have BPA-free cans, but is it simply a new version of plastic that we haven't identified as "bad" yet?

Both canned products contain guar gum.

A friend posted about preferring UHT coconut milk (Kara UHT Natural - another affiliate link). Some folks have concerns about UHT - ultra high temperature - and this product is not available organic. It has what it calls a "GM-free stabilizer" - not sure what that is. Not guar gum? Foodies and Asian food fans seem to prefer the flavor.

So I was searching about the UHT version when I found this 3-reasons-why-coconut-milk-may-not-be-your-friend article that summed things up quite neatly, plus described some FODMAP issues some have with coconut milk, and basically recommended two other options. (One of which another friend had recently suggested, by the by.)

One is the Let's Do Organic Coconut Cream.


The other is buying shredded, organic, unsweetened coconut and making your own milk.

Gah.

Maybe we should switch to the Let's Do Organic for now. This Amazon review helped me understand that product better.

***** Great creamed coconut; NOT the same as coconut milk
By Naomi Williams on January 12, 2012
Size: Pack of 6 Verified Purchase
The folks giving bad reviews on this product don't seem to understand that creamed coconut is not the same as condensed coconut milk. It contains coconut-meat solids and is pulpier/thicker, and will not taste like coconut milk by thinning it out with water.
What you get: inside the green box you see in the picture is a plastic-wrapped block of creamed coconut. Unless your house is very warm, it will be rock-hard. I fill a bowl with hot tap water and immerse the entire package, then knead it with my fingers after a few minutes. Repeat a couple of times, then snip the package open and pour/squeeze it out like toothpaste for use in cooking. If you don't use the entire package all at once it will resolidify; that's not because there's anything "wrong" with it, that's just what real coconut cream does. That's why I love these little packages, as opposed to the 16-oz jars of other brands that they sell at Whole Foods Market.

Just for those who are now going to suggest goat's milk (or sheep's) - Paul really does not like goat's milk! And he doesn't like raising sheep (or goats).

So I would love to hear others' thoughts on using coconut milk in a place where we can't grow them or buy them fresh. What do you do?

Have you tried rice milk with added coconut ?
Its popular here in France

David

David Livingston wrote:Have you tried rice milk with added coconut ?
Its popular here in France

David

Nope. Trying to avoid grains. They increase inflammation for me, and coconut milk does not. Thanks for the idea/reply though!

How about Tiger nut milk ? Not a grain its a root crop Jack Spiro grows it among others
http://www.tigernuts.com/products/tigernuts-extract/

David

David Livingston wrote:How about Tiger nut milk ? Not a grain its a root crop Jack Spiro grows it among others
http://www.tigernuts.com/products/tigernuts-extract/

David

You are a guy in the know! We found tiger nut milk at Whole Foods on a recent trip and tried it. I liked it okay, Paul not as much. It's possible that as with the first rice and soy milks from years ago, the way it's made might improve, thereby improving the flavor and texture. I do think it's potentially a fantastic crop idea. Of course, even though tiger nut is not a grain, I think it would still be more starchy than coconut milk. We like the idea of a higher fat food.

I have whipped up hazelnuts and almonds in the blender until I get a milk-like substance. The addition of a small amount of olive oil seems to enhance illusion. If left to sit very long,  the oil may rise to the top.

- just wanted to report that I got here from your FB link and it worked well ! Big AL

Dale Hodgins wrote:I have whipped up hazelnuts and almonds in the blender until I get a milk-like substance. The addition of a small amount of olive oil seems to enhance illusion. If left to sit very long,  the oil may rise to the top.

Do you soak the hazelnuts first? Does the blender leave little tiny chunks in it?

I keep forgetting about doing this. Then, of course, I am looking for a lazy option. I learned that somewhere.

allen lumley wrote:- just wanted to report that I got here from your FB link and it worked well ! Big AL

You are one of the few, Big Al! In many ways!! Thanks for the report!

I chop up nuts dry and then gradually add more fluid. It's like runny nut butter. My theory is that the nuts abrade against one another as well as against the blade and become more pulverized. Once I fill the machine 1/3 with water, its  allowed to run for a long time so that all of the material can be reduced. There are still sometimes little chunks, but they tend to settle at the bottom.  They can be added to the next batch.

I feel like this idea is about to get shot down hard, but I really don't know any better, so here it goes...

What about some type of organic almond milk?

I did well on almond milk for awhile until I found the real deal. we have been getting coconut milk in little paper containers from wilderness family naturals. definitely something you could order by the case and the containers would help fuel an rmh instead of needing to be recycled like cans.

having found raw cows milk now I have no plans of stopping that.

The fat in coconut milk is just soooo deliciously decadent. See these pics Sam took of making coconut whipped cream. In his post he explains how he did it. Though when I make it, I leave out the sugar and use stevia (or some times honey) instead.





I have made a cheesecake out of cashews, and that was pretty wonderful, if I do say so myself.

It's not that I want to shoot anyone down about using nut milks - they definitely have their place and are certainly awesome; especially when/if you're growing the nuts yourself! I just thought others might also want to discuss their coconut milk choices, or why they gave up on coconut milk, and what's the least toxic coconut milk. That kind of thing.

Having just polished off some pretty luscious cocoa made with a big dollop of coconut fat (and sweetened with stevia) I'm having a hard time seeing how nut milks could compare. I admit it; we're pretty spoiled.

John Master wrote:we have been getting coconut milk in little paper containers from wilderness family naturals. definitely something you could order by the case and the containers would help fuel an rmh instead of needing to be recycled like cans.

Okay, their products do look very good. It's been a while since I've looked up Wilderness Family products. I think another permie recommended them for the oil in another thread quite some time ago.

http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com/category/coconut-products-coconut-milk.php



Their milks do contain either xanthan or guar gum to prevent separation, though they claim their milk is a higher fat, higher quality product. Interesting.

In Michigan, it's against the law to buy/sell raw milk, but...it's ok to rent a cow.

I pay $25 a month for my "share" in the jersey cow, and get a gallon a week.

It's very different from the pasteurized super homogenized stuff from the store.



A little google fu brought me to this page:

http://www.realmilk.com/real-milk-finder/montana/#mt



It suggests that a similar or identical strategy is being used in montana.



Not that I don't love coconut milk, but fresh jersey milk really has no comparison.

The aseptic boxes like this are paperboard, though often lined with something...sorta plastic-like. This is not something I've researched. We don't burn these boxes here because we aren't sure if we want the fumes from the lining part.

In reading the earlier link about coconut milk dangers, coconut milk in unlined cans has properties that leach the ick out of the cans. Lined cans usually contain BPA which is a different kind of ick.

So in trying to determine if the aseptic boxes have less ick, my quick search turned up this FAQ page from the Breast Cancer Fund about BPA in cans.

They have great sections on why to avoid BPA (and what it is) and why BPA-free doesn't necessarily mean it's a safer product. And their one-line about aseptic packaging said this:

Aseptic packaging, like Tetra Pak containers (which are lined with PET), are also a good way to avoid BPA.

Also in this section on "better alternatives" they recommend the plastic PET continuing that while it currently tests as a safer plastic than those with BPA, more testing is needed.

So...it's paper with plastic.

Troy Rhodes wrote:In Michigan, it's against the law to buy/sell raw milk, but...it's ok to rent a cow.

I pay $25 a month for my "share" in the jersey cow, and get a gallon a week.

It's very different from the pasteurized super homogenized stuff from the store.



A little google fu brought me to this page:

http://www.realmilk.com/real-milk-finder/montana/#mt



It suggests that a similar or identical strategy is being used in montana.



Not that I don't love coconut milk, but fresh jersey milk really has no comparison.

Yeah, that one cow share is about 4 hours away from us (it's a BIG state here in big sky country!). We thought we had a Missoula source for raw milk, though that didn't work out as we'd hoped.

Paul tried the raw milk from Tim and Kristie's cow (when they were here and had some to share) more than I did, and it still seemed to set him back a bit. Not sure why. Maybe the A1/A2 genetics thing, maybe that cow, maybe something in the forage, dunno.

Well, you gotta eat somehow...


I think there is a lot of genetic predisposition in how well one processes cow milk.

could get a crate of coconuts shipped in and avoid any and all ick. more work of course, not sure if the coconuts have to be green and fresh or if they can be shipped and still make good milk and coconut products. would need to set up processing. I only use a few of these containers every so often, so not many worries about what they contain, if this was going to be your main milk source it would be a concern.

Coconut oil and coconut meat are readily available at reasonable cost and in a form not requiring refrigeration. I wonder what would happen if the two of those were seriously blended along with something to prevent separation.

Yeah, making your own coconut milk is one of the options discussed in the 3 reasons coconut milk might not be your friend article. Though since organic, dried, unsweetened coconut (flakes or shreds) is more widely available, that's the method discussed. A friend of mine said she tried that method and said it was good.

I imagine using fresh(ish?) coconuts would be better, as well as adding additional oil. I am so dragging my feet at the thought. Though maybe I should look at that blender action and effort as less time consuming than milking and caring for a cow.

Being raised in the Caribbean, I am familiar with coconut milk making. For milk, you want the dried whole coconut. Crack it open, use an old spoon to pry the meat off the shell. Grate it (mom had us 3 boys as her free child labor) then puree it while adding HOT water. Steep, and strain with a cotton cloth in a colander. Once most of the milk is drained, you pick up the cloth, close the ends and wring the life out if it (over a bowl) bottle and refrigerate. Depending on the size, one coconut makes about two pints.no plastic, no cans. If you are crafty you may saw the coconut in half about 3/4 of the way up, and create a drinking cup. The shell can be worked and polished to a mirror finish. The 1/4 half's top is sliced and becomes the stand for the coconut "coffee cup."
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/t/coconut-peel-wooden-cup-coffee-isolated-white-56025323.jpg

Something I've considered is giving up all milks and milk products. Just eat the nuts, the grains, etc. My issue is yogurt. Yogurt is one of my staples. I don't eat much meat, and only normal (food pyramid?) amounts of vegetables, so getting enough protein is an issue. However, now I have chickens, which have started laying eggs, so maybe that's solved.

I have very bad reactions to pasteurized cow's milk. I adore goat's milk but it's expensive.

Have you tried oat milk? It sounds like it would be good, but I haven't had it, except in the form of atole de avena. Now that's good! But it has boiled milk and sugar in it.

Many milks have xanthan gum and I found a long time ago that I have bad reactions to that. More recently I've heard that it's a product of processing corn with bacteria, probably GMO corn. It's a result of people insisting that their food be creamy without any effort on their part.

Hi Jocelyn, what kind of blender do you have? I've made all kinds of nut milks. Using a vitamix, one can skip the last step JD Gonzalez described.

I used to use dried unsweetened organic flakes, can't remember the proportions. I would soak the coconut flakes in advance if I thought of it, or used them dry. I bet the added coconut oil is heavenly. If I did not have my own pastured goats' milk (or Jersey milk when I am not milking) I'd give it a try.

Coconut milk from the dry organic unsweetened flakes is quick and easy, honest. You only have to deal with the bag the flakes came in. Our store even recycles the bags they package their bulk foods in, but you may not be that lucky there in Missoula.

Thekla

I'd been looking for good tasting coconut milk without all the additives and worries about what the packaging is made from so I had to see what everyone has to say here. No one has mentioned coconut milk powder (I think it's organic but coconut is one of those things I don't think needs to be organic due to the way they grow, like avocados), which I've recently tried and like a lot. Znatural foods in Florida has it if anyone is interested. I'm interested in shelf life of any food products I will have on hand for any length of time too so dehydrated products interest me and I'd love to find some good organic powdered cows or goat milk somewhere.

Since there's been a lot of talk about home milk-alternative making here, I feel like I need to pimp this product: http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NUU7FH8

I bought it on a whim when I needed to fill out an "Add On" order, and I love it. Yes, it's plastic, but it's not in contact with your food for long. The mesh is very tight, but because it's made of a non-absorbent material, liquids flow through easily. Because it's so tight, nut and seed fibers don't really get stuck in the fabric like with cheesecloth or muslin. It rinses clean with minimal effort and the seam is perfectly bound so nothing sticks there either. I've used it several times now and it still looks basically new, which isn't something I can say of any other cloth strainer I've tried.

I had to go cholesterol free or as close as possible, (genetic cholesterol problems) and my big issue with coconut, almond, or rice is how glaringly the cane sugar flavor comes through. I buy Silk DHA-Omega3 soy...

Now I use coconut oil for cooking. That's great stuff.

I am an unwilling Vegan if you can call it that, and if I behave those numbers stay down. I can commensurate about Jocelyn and Paul not being able to get near cow squeezings. I fortunately can consume soy and legumes...

I do hope at least you can enjoy gluten containing breadstuff at least.

I use a soyabella soy milk machine to make nut milk. Soak nuts overnight (cashews only a few hours), rinse, put in the machine with clean water and blend for a few cycles. Then pour into your cup. No straining needed. If you let it stand in a jar for a few hours a kind of "cream" will rise to the top. If you are buying 50 pound bags of raw organic nuts from azure standard it is very affordable. theRawFoodWorld.com often has great deals too.

Jocelyn, et al, I can't say enough good things about Wilderness Family Naturals selection of coconut milks. My favorites are the dry powders, much less cost/energy to ship and the taste is outstanding-- better than any canned milk, probably not as good as freshly made. There are two, both not overly processed. One of them has a tiny amount of casein (milk protein). I hope that isn't an issue. Try one.
http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com/category/coconut-products-milk-powder.php

Thank you Samantha Lewis. I will look one of those machines up. Fortunately Azure will make a run out this far once a month. Thank you!

Your welcome. It also has a heating element so you can make hot chocolate nut milk or just heat water for tea/coffee.

Dale Hodgins wrote:I have whipped up hazelnuts and almonds in the blender until I get a milk-like substance. The addition of a small amount of olive oil seems to enhance illusion. If left to sit very long,  the oil may rise to the top.

I thought of this one too. Especially when you can grow your own hazelnuts and almonds (and olives) - maybe that's possible where Paul and Jocelyn live?

Jd Gonzalez wrote:Being raised in the Caribbean, I am familiar with coconut milk making. For milk, you want the dried whole coconut. Crack it open, use an old spoon to pry the meat off the shell. Grate it (mom had us 3 boys as her free child labor) then puree it while adding HOT water. Steep, and strain with a cotton cloth in a colander. Once most of the milk is drained, you pick up the cloth, close the ends and wring the life out if it (over a bowl) bottle and refrigerate. Depending on the size, one coconut makes about two pints.no plastic, no cans. If you are crafty you may saw the coconut in half about 3/4 of the way up, and create a drinking cup. The shell can be worked and polished to a mirror finish. The 1/4 half's top is sliced and becomes the stand for the coconut "coffee cup."
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/t/coconut-peel-wooden-cup-coffee-isolated-white-56025323.jpg

thats about the coolest crafty thing i've ever read!

A couple of thoughts
Tiger nuts are over 21% Fat so should be good for making milk

Since you can make almond milk why not walnut milk ?

I have never seen any so ..... you could be the first

David

I just learned a life changing tidbit recently that you can take any nut butter and blend it with water and you get a nice creamy milk. I thought this was brilliant as you can get the nut butters in glass containers and blend enough for whatever you need at the time with no worry of it going bad if you don't use it all and you don't have to deal with the nut milk bag/what to do with the pulp business afterwards. The company is Dastony (www.dastony.com) and they have some really ridiculously good sounding nut butters. Obviously you wouldn't be able to whip this like the coconut cream, but you'd get a nice tasty glass of milk to drink. Here is what they said on their facebook page: "Little known fact: when our nut butters aren't busy drizzling and spreading themselves all of your gorgeous food creations, they often moonlight as a base for instant nut milk. We made an instant brazil nut milk with our Stone Ground Brazil Nut Butter by blending 1 TBS with 8oz of pure water (fresh coconut water is also highly recommended!), a pinch of Himalayan salt, raw honey, and some vanilla bean..."

They currently sell their pumpkin seed butter on Thrive Market (however out of stock at the moment), but have many others I want to try.

The coconut milk product I use and get from Amazon is Aroy-D, not sure about the packaging ick factor.

Also not sure what tiger nut milk you got from Whole foods, but Organic Gemini (www.organicgemini.com) does a bomb-a** TigerNut Horchata. They are so good and all the prebiotic benefits of the tiger nuts are so good for your gut.

Good luck!

I just made some coconut milk. it's so delicious.

I just get a coconut, drill out the holes, drink the coconut water. yum!

then I crack open the nut on a rock. Then I use a spoon to pry the meat off the shell. It works good once you get the hang of it. Then I put it all in a blender and blend it with some water.

I use about a 1:2 ratio of coconut to water. Then strain the coconut out, chill and enjoy. I then dry the coconut shavings that are produced to eat later. They don't have as much flavor as they would before but I still like them.

This last time around I added some clove at the end and that was a very good choice. I cant even convey to you how delicious that is.

Also, this might interest you if you go the all natural coconut route...

Co-Co Jacks

Hi, Jocelyn! And, Paul!

Why don't you guys just get another cow, for cripes' sake?
I know you said that there's the potential that one or both of you could still have issues with the dairy, BUT if you went as far as you could with regards to it being grass-fed, raw milk, A2-A2, and you found that you DIDN'T have the health issues, then your other "issues" with coconut milk (packaging, fuel, etc., etc., etc.) would be gone, and your heart will be as light as a feather!

I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but both my husband and I agree, the time spent with our foreheads pressed up against the side of one of our sweet Jerseys (I heard from a yoga instructor once that there are relaxation pressure points in your forehead), are some of the times we miss the most from our little ill-fated farm project. Sure, there were mornings that I grumbled about having to go out there, but I NEVER wished I were back inside and cow-less once I got out there. And do it the lazy way, like we did: don't feed grain, and just milk once per day. If you're not feeding her for maximum production, she won't NEED to be milked twice per day. And, you don't NEED to milk super early, either. I chose 10 am because I like to get up and have a cup of tea or coffee and have a peaceful, quiet, lazy morning.

I write this not to be preachy, because coconut milk IS luscious and delicious, but mainly to plug these guys as a source to look into for your future girls:
http://saboranch.com/category/dairy-cattle/

Jocelyn, it's a horrible, wonderful world we're living in. Try not to go nuts over too many relatively small things, it'll just raise your cortisol levels, and that would defeat the purpose of finding a near-perfect coconut milk.

BPA in the cans, PET in the boxes.

You also need to avoid carrageenen (sp?) at all costs if you have inflammation issues. It is in many nut milks and products like ice creams and bottled smoothies.

We use So Delicious brand culinary cream-it is full fat minimal added ingredients. Add extra water to make milk. Best choice I had found localish or Amazon prime. I am going to have to compare it with the others listed in this thread.