• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic

Fence corner options question  RSS feed

 
Dan Grubbs
Posts: 529
Location: northwest Missouri, USA
29
books chicken dog forest garden goat trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have a question on corner bracing for wire fencing. I'm not sure if the answer is a regional thing, a function thing, or a "that's how we do it" thing ...

In my travels I notice there are two primary corners for wire fencing and I'm wondering if someone can tell me when or why these two options are used. In the two photos below you see the cross brace in two different positions. The diagonal one is the one in my mind that seems to be more logical due to the forces involved in stretching fencing. However, I see the other corner brace configuration with a horizontal brace more often in Missouri. All the configurations have diagonal wire as tensioners, so I'm hoping that some of the experienced people on this site can give me some explanation.
fence-corner.jpg
[Thumbnail for fence-corner.jpg]
fence-corner2.jpg
[Thumbnail for fence-corner2.jpg]
 
Todd Parr
pollinator
Posts: 1238
Location: Wisconsin, zone 4
44
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The correct way is the picture on the bottom, along with a cable from the bottom of the corner post to the top of the next post. Put the brace between the tops of the posts in first, and then put a cable with a cable tightener in after. If you don't do it that way, the top of the corner post will move inward. I know, because it happened to me on the corner posts of my chicken run when I was in a hurry and didn't think it mattered that much. The posts tilted in. On my dog run, where I did it correctly, the posts haven't moved at all.

I tried attaching a picture with the cable drawn in red. I don't know if it will work.

I edited this to add, the way it is done in the top picture will probably work also, but it that case, I would put the cable from the top of one post to the other. If you don't, the post next to the corner will move away from the corner post.

fence-corner2.jpg
[Thumbnail for fence-corner2.jpg]
Fence corner
 
Drew Moffatt
Posts: 127
Location: New Zealand
6
food preservation goat hunting
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Both these options will work just fine, I prefer the box(horizontal) stay as I thump the posts with a tractor and it doesn't require digging whereas the end of the angle stay is usually wedged against a piece of timber buried horizontally in the ground at least 3 feet long.
I do think the height/angle of that angle stay is a bit much was the steeper that angle the more likely it is to jack out of the ground when you put tension on the fence, mine are always kneecap height. Also pays to bash in a steel y post on an angle against the strainer(end post) to help stop it trying to lift or shift or rotate if you haven't done it perfectly.
If I do one of these next week I'll take a few pictures but its pretty stoney at work so I'm not rushing to do that job
 
Travis Johnson
pollinator
Posts: 1268
138
books cat chicken duck rabbit transportation trees woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
As the others have said, definitely the bottom one with diagonal wire bracing. I will add this however, it is best to add a daisy wheel tensioner to tighten the diagonal cable instead of winding sticks. That is because after Page Wire fencing is installed, you cannot crank the corner brace tight if frost action heaves it, with a daisy wheel tensioner you can.

 
Todd Parr
pollinator
Posts: 1238
Location: Wisconsin, zone 4
44
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I just looked up the thing I use because I didn't remember what it was called. the things I use to tighten the cable are just called turnbuckles.
 
Travis Johnson
pollinator
Posts: 1268
138
books cat chicken duck rabbit transportation trees woodworking
  • Likes 9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
With Spring here and a probably a slew of people planning fences for the upcoming grazing season, I thought I would share as many fencing experiences as I could in the 41 years I have farmed. In the interest of brevity I put these down in bulleted format and while coming across as arrogant, it is not meant to. These are my experiences raising sheep, and a disastrous year of raising sheep and beef cows together. These are my pointers though admittedly experienced only in New England. Happy grazing to you and your livestock.


Fence posts should always be “pounded” into the soil and never drilled with an auger of any sort. Even if packed with dirt tightly around them they will eventually be hefted up by frost action. Encasing them with cement is even worse as it gives the frost something to adhere to and will also heft them upwards.

Slender fence posts drive easier then big fence posts, however too small of a fence post will break if it hits hard pan, ledge or a big underground rock. A 3-4 inch fence post is ideal.

Fence posts should always be driven small end down into the ground

Always choose the longest lasting type of wood locally available if possible. Here in New England it is cedar.

Be wary of purchasing pressure treated fence posts, while ideal in terms of longevity, they can compromise your ability to get or maintain an organic farm status.

I have a lot of cedar on my woodlot, however it is often big in diameter. You can split big cedar into smaller cedar posts in halfs or quarters to get to the ideal 3-4” diameter size. Lifespan is slightly less than non-split (fully rounded) fence posts, but not by a lot honestly.

All posts should be sharpened on their small end.

Consider putting birdhouses on your fence posts. Song birds need habitat and a row of them looks beautiful across a field.

If the orientation is right, consider bat houses. Yes bats. They eat their weight in bugs per night and can aid your livestock without resorting to insecticides.

Don’t debark…let livestock do that if you are not using electrical fence. It is labor intensive and does not significantly shorten a fence posts lifespan in relation to the work involved.

You can pound fence posts with a tractor to reduce work. With a sharpened point, done during the wettest time of the year (Spring here) a tractor with its front end loader filled with dirt to make it heavy, can sink a post easier then sledge hammer blows. Alternatively a backhoe attachment, excavator or my preferred method…a bulldozer with an attachment to its blade, can sink fence posts really fast.

To construct a fence post on ledge rock a hole can be drilled with a pin placed loose or epoxied into it that sticks up by a foot with a matching hole bred into the end of the post. The hole can be drilled by hand, or with a generator, extension cord and hilti drill.

A cheaper alternative to a fence post on ledge (or a temporary fence post for a gate) is to cut an 8 foot 2 x 4 in half, then cut 12 x 12 triangles out of ¾ inch ply wood and make an L-shaped 2 x 4 post. Face the L part on the ground and away from the grazed side of the field and weight down with a bucket of sand or rocks.

To bring the bottom of a fence down into a gully screw in corkscrew dog anchors work well. They are inexpensive and do not pull out.

An easy way to thread corkscrew dog anchors into soil is by modifying a ½ inch by 1-1/4 socket. Using a grinder, cut a slot across the socket about a quarter inch wide to fit over the eye of the dog anchor. Attach a breaker bar to the socket in tee-Handle fashion and thread into soil.

An easier way to thread corkscrew dog anchors into the soil is to use the same modified socket, but attached to an impact wrench driven by an air compressor that is powered by a generator. Placed in the bucket of a tractor, or on a trailer, the contraption is loud but allows simple, quick installation.

Fencing tools are easy to get lost. Paint all fencing tools a florescent orange. The cost of a single can of paint is easily offset by even the loss of a cheap pair of pliers lost in the grass.

Corners are most important. I prefer the H-brace type and have had great success with them.

Instead of using “pins” for horizontal H bracing, use long spikes (log home spikes about 1 foot long) that can be driven into the vertical fence posts. This saves the trouble of drilling deep holes in wet wood that can tax battery powered tools, and eliminates the need for generators, extension cords and corded drills.

Never use “winding sticks” to tighten bracing wire. While cheap or even free, on some fencing types like goat or sheep fencing, they cannot be retightened afterwards which may need to be done occasionally due to frost action. A better alternative is cheap ratcheting electric wire fence tensioners that cost $3 or so. They can periodically be tightened no matter what type of wire fence is used.

Unhappy, unfed livestock are highly motivated to get out of fenced areas. Unfortunately they prefer living grass to hay so if sufficient acreage is not available, good fences are a must.

My farm has plenty of fence, but NONE of it is electric. Being a sheep farm, we use Page Wire fencing and though “expensive”, will last 30 years or more with very little maintenance and no electric current to maintain and ensure.

You cannot rotationally graze (mob grazing) with marginal fence. Due to crowding, competition, and lack of forage (all of which is the purpose of rotational grazing), livestock are motivated to escape.

There is no such thing as an “expensive” fence. With increased liability, frustration from escaped livestock, and longevity; its overall cost is cheaper than temporary fencing or cheaply constructed fences.

Always keep in mind that fencing is double-purpose. Not only does it keep livestock in, it keeps people and other animals out. This can be advantageous because while my fence is “expensive” I do not have the added costs of livestock guard dogs either, and yet have yet to lose a sheep to coyotes because my fence protects them from them.

Wildlife laws often require the farm owner to incur certain expenses, if for instance coyote proof fencing is installed however, livestock losses may be compensated, or alternative measures given out in aide since countermeasures were taken.

The “ultimate” fence is one that has page wire to 48 inches high. A strand of barb wire OUTSIDE the fence at ground level to deter animals such as coyotes from digging under, and offset electric fencing on the inside spaced at heights for pigs, cows, horses, etc.

Wire fence that uses staples should always be double barbed. I found this out the hard way with ½ a mile of fence that pulled the staples out from drifted snow.

If using electric fencing and you need to drive a copper ground rod into the ground drive the ground rod at a 45 degree angle and not straight down. It glances off rocks and obstructions better. Ground contact is what is important and not depth.

If your electric fence is not impeded and yet you lack significant voltage and it s dry out, dump 5 gallons of water on the ground near your ground rod. You need moisture to ensure that it sends voltage to ground upon an animal touching it. This actually works.

Use a tractor, truck. winch or come along to stretch fence to obtain a tight fence. I prefer my tractor mounted logging winch, but a hand come-a-long will work equally well. Even tight fences sag over time.

If fencing breaks ratcheting electric wire fence tensioners work well at fixing many problematic situations because they can be tightened. I have several that are now permanent repairs of a perimeter fence and have endured for years.

Bending wires in Z’s to make a sagging fence tight is a waste of time; not only does it break off zinc and causes the fence to rust, in later years ice storms will stretch out this type of repair

Crimped splice kits work well for fence repairs. Often times a come-a-long can bring two broken wires back together, put tension back in the fence and then with a crimped splice permanently

Tube greats are great, simple to operate, and have a variety of add-ons that make them ideal for gates. However tube gates are expensive.

Tube gates…without modification…do not deter coyotes or domestic dogs. Statistically the later kill more livestock in the USA than other predators.

I will never use a tube gate without these two add-ons. A bolt on latch and locking mechanism for the open position. It is a lesson in frustration without them.

Stay open latches can easily be made using ¾ plywood cut into an L shape. With a single nail acting as a pivot point, then can be slipped over the top pipe of a tube gate and keep it from swinging shut. Only plywood can be used because boards would split.

The USDA-NRCS does not pay for ANY gates in its cost share programs. Plan accordingly.

The best fence is one which has the least amount of gates possible yet has them strategically located. A gate in an often used location is a dream.

Reflective material should be placed on any gate on a road, trail, or field as ATV’s and Snowmobiles are common unfortunately on posted land. Better to warn even those that trespass that a gate is present than to be sued by them.

All gates should have locks or be able to be locked. This prevents livestock theft, and while that has never occurred at my farm yet, I have had people ADD sheep to my flock ruining my Scrapie Status.

Cheap plastic signs that say “Warning Electric Fence” deters trespassers. Even a single strand of electric wire fencing with a sign or two stating as such, works. I have used this for years and yet the wire is not electrified and just stapled to fence posts. People do not dare test it, keeping them out.

To span wide distances, often two gates is better than a wide single one. Our widest piece of equipment is 17 feet wide FOLDED UP, so I use (2) 12 foot tube gates for a gated span of 24 feet.

To save on expensive tube gate costs, but yet allow future access, but not everyday access to areas, I install a single gate then a removable fence post with wire stretched to it instead of a double gate.

Cattle guard gates work well for cows, but do not deter sheep. They roll across them to get to the other side defeating their purpose. (And some people say sheep are dumb!)

To make fully functional, light, but cheaper non-see thru gates (for say in barns, holding pens or paddock areas), simply use self-tapping screws to affix cheap steel roofing to the tubes of the gate.

Non-see thru gates, while they have their place; also catch the wind and can rip hinges out of posts. Be wary and guard against this.

Spring loaded electric fence wire gate handles work well for make-due gates. Attach fencing to one end, and use wire gate handles on the other. For sheep fencing I use (5) to secure PAST the gate post. This ensures sheep do not wiggle between the gate post and spring loaded handles.

A better alternative than the one above is the Double Flap method. Attach fencing securely to each gate post and overlap in the middle using electric spring fence gate handles to secure. The double attachment points keeps livestock in.

I never built a wooden gate yet that survived for very long (against sheep anyway)

Fencing is expensive and thus it can be moved, even Page Wire fencing. A tractor with a front end loader works well with a chain wrapped around the post and hoisted straight up. Going from one post to another, huge sections can be lifted and deposited on the ground then dragged to the new area to be fenced.

It is impossible to redrive fence posts that are nailed to wire. Sagging fences result.

To remove wire from fence posts the fastest way is to use a generator with an electric grinder with a thin cut off wheel. They last a surprisingly long amount of time. 3 cut off wheels helped me remove the wire from fence posts off a 10 acre field. They were well worth it!

Always put gates in the corners of a field. Livestock will often run by an open gate in the middle of a long open run, but can easily be “cornered” and pushed through to an adjacent field of a gate located in a corner.

“Laneways” do not need to be constructed of Page Wire fencing. A cheap alternative is smooth “barb-less cable” stapled directly to fence posts. They only need a visual guide to keep them going in a straight direction.

The best way to move livestock around from field to field is slowly.

Plan livestock moves well in advance. If they do not go where you wish within one or two tries, wait for another day. They are in panic mode and will not go where you want anyway and you will just chase them aimlessly.

Get in the habit of always securing gates behind you. In the case they get by, they are limited to where they can go.

Know your livestocks habits and plan a fence accordingly. Sheep for instance “go under a fence” where as cows tend to “go over a fence.”

Cull livestock that are “jumpers” or in other words; often get out whether under a fence or over it. They are not worth keeping.

As often as possible, try to have multiple gates so livestock can be trapped thus preventing escape and eliminate frustration.

Build a sorting pen as soon as practical. The ability to move livestock around without fuss can be rewarding rather than frustrating. Better care of the livestock is also done since it can be done easily and more often.

A sorting pen with a roof, though expensive, is ideal in northern climates as snow accumulations can render sorting pens utterly useless quickly in the winter. (Our barn doubles as a sorting pen via numerous gates)

Cheap hinges and gate latches are a lesson in frustration.

Keep your eyes on the prize while you work. Fence building is a lot of walking which causes fatigue and makes people grumpy. Just remember that 330 feet of fence you put up will last 30 years or more. Do not be self defeating by how much needs to be put up, take stock in what is already accomplished.

There is no such thing as dumb livestock. They have nothing to do all day but scheme against you and plot ways of escape. Regardless what you do, or what you have for a fence, they will probably succeed. However the better the plan, the fence, the fencing materials, the less often it happens.
 
R Scott
Posts: 3351
Location: Kansas Zone 6a
32
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Another problem with diagonal braces is they push the corner post up out of the ground.
 
Dan Grubbs
Posts: 529
Location: northwest Missouri, USA
29
books chicken dog forest garden goat trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks everyone for the insights on fencing and corners. Special thanks to Travis Johnson for sharing his experience. I think I have plan in place for a perimeter fence and my approach will include more gates that I first thought.
 
Larisa Walk
Posts: 158
Location: South of Winona, Minnesota
8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
We do the "H" corner brace like drawn in red in the second picture, but we do the entire corner with "T" posts, a pipe or EMT for the horizontal and #9 wire. Much easier and less expense than with wooden corners.
 
R Nichols
Posts: 40
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
We are in the high desert of central Oregon. While I am sure all the corner fence advice is viable to many areas that have soils that can be dug in or post pounded... the one size fits all of installing fence does not work the same here. Mainly its all lava rock down under 2 or 3 feet of shifting silt. We have had to use a rock drill and in some holes concrete. If anyone has solutions to putting in fence posts that does not involve ripping off the ole mans shoulder... (we are "over the hill" here) We would be all ears.

Oh, and I am a little curious about the photo with the red lines... Todd, isn't that backwards?

Hope you all have a great weekend!
 
Troy Rhodes
Posts: 626
26
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
"Oh, and I am a little curious about the photo with the red lines... Todd, isn't that backwards? "

Nope. The red line is the correct position for the tension wire.

Follow along for why that is so.

1. The corner post will tend to lean to the right, because the whole fence is pulling on it, and the bottom of the post can't easily move since it's in the ground.

2. The horizontal post strengthens the corner post, because now BOTH vertical posts would have to lean to the right.

3. The diagonal wire PREVENTS the right post from leaning to the right. It's in tension and it is very very strong in tension. If it went the other way, it would be in compression, and that doesn't help a lick. And since the right post can't lean to the right, neither can the corner post.

It's very elegant really.
 
Drew Moffatt
Posts: 127
Location: New Zealand
6
food preservation goat hunting
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Do you not have these things in the US?
I'd never be without my ezepulls, I've stripped many fences with them and they leave it neat and tidy staples reusable if you want to.
We also put triplex(permanent wire strainers) on every wire in every fence.
Hopefully pictures post
C__Data_Users_DefApps_AppData_INTERNETEXPLORER_Temp_Saved-Images_images.jpg
[Thumbnail for C__Data_Users_DefApps_AppData_INTERNETEXPLORER_Temp_Saved-Images_images.jpg]
triplex permanent wire strainer
C__Data_Users_DefApps_AppData_INTERNETEXPLORER_Temp_Saved-Images_images(1).jpg
[Thumbnail for C__Data_Users_DefApps_AppData_INTERNETEXPLORER_Temp_Saved-Images_images(1).jpg]
ezepull staple pullers, wire crimpers, cutters and strippers for underground cable
 
Stuart Whitby
Posts: 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
From my personal experience, our fences were done by the previous owner using diagonal braces, as per your top picture.  With the water sitting on top of them so regularly, and our ground generally being pretty wet, most of these are rotten after 10-12 years. 

None of the fence posts themselves seem to have rotted much.  Maybe I just haven't noticed as I haven't the opportunity to stand on them to step over the electric fence ... which really hurts when you get it wrong! 
 
Travis Johnson
pollinator
Posts: 1268
138
books cat chicken duck rabbit transportation trees woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Andy Moffatt wrote:Do you not have these things in the US?


Yes, the top picture is what I call "Daisy Wheel Tensioners".
 
Travis Johnson
pollinator
Posts: 1268
138
books cat chicken duck rabbit transportation trees woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
R Nichols wrote:Oh, and I am a little curious about the photo with the red lines... Todd, isn't that backwards?


Todd is indeed correct.

Think of it like a tug of rope game where people on both sides pull their hardest in each direction to win the game. This puts an incredible amount of tension on the rope, but inevitably the last person on each end leans back and downward in an effort to "anchor" the rope. So it is with a fence. You must use the stay wires to anchor the fence to constantly hold it in tension by getting the anchor point as low to the ground as you can. That is why you want to use 8 foot fence posts and not six, and for extra protection can use rocks on the inside of the post to help secure the post better.

Incidentally most of my corner braces are guy wired in X-fashion. I found it helps keep a bit more rigidity in the corner posts. If you don't mind spending a wee bit more money, it is just extra protection from frost heaving.
 
Travis Johnson
pollinator
Posts: 1268
138
books cat chicken duck rabbit transportation trees woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
R Nichols wrote:Mainly its all lava rock down under 2 or 3 feet of shifting silt.  We have had to use a rock drill and in some holes concrete.  If anyone has solutions to putting in fence posts that does not involve ripping off the ole mans shoulder... (we are "over the hill" here)  We would be all ears.


This may not work for you because we get frost here and have gravelly loam for soil, but in case it might work, or work for others, I can tell how I have semi-mechanized fence building on-the-cheap.

My bulldozer blade only rises to 4 feet so I bolt on a special bracket to the right of my blade which is just a L-shaped pieced of rugged steel. Using sharpened cedar posts 6 feet long, I build my fence just after the frost leaves the ground when it is really wet out. With my bulldozer I can drive in the mud without getting stuck. I just put the fence post in the ground, hover over it with my bolt on bracket, then tipping the blade and bearing down on it, the shear weight of the bulldozer sinks the post into the ground. Then I move to the next post. In this manner I can sink a row of fence posts 2 feet deep really fast. Behind me I pull my log trailer which holds my fence posts and has a backhoe bucket on it. I use the latter to dig the 8 foot fence posts for the corner posts and gate posts. I also use the log trailer's grapple to stretch the woven wire fence after all the posts are in, the corners are made, and the woven wire is started on the first corner post. Everything together makes a pretty formidable team, though it really helps to have a second person helping on all this.
 
Fred King
Posts: 36
1
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
If using a tractor or other machine to stretch a wire fence be very careful.  As a kid I helped my dad cut a neighbor out of barbed wire that had cocooned around him and his tractor when his foot slipped off the cluch. None of us had fun especially the neighbor.  I would prefer to pull with a comealong anchored to the tractor.
 
Eugene Howard
Posts: 38
Location: Missouri
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
To the OP Dan, hopefully you have it figured out by now, but if not...........

2nd photo showing horizontal bracing is the right one. Diagonal wire runs from bottom of corner to top of brace. That way when you tension the diagonal (which BTW, I'd use two loops of #9 wire), the wire pulls from the base of the corner post to the top of the brace post, which is then drawn hard over to towards the corner. The fulcrum of the lever that is the brace post is the ground at the base of the brace post. So when you tension the fence, if the top of the corner tries to move in the direction of the pull, it pushes against the top of the brace post, which then pulls against the base of the corner, which is to say it is pushing against itself. Done this way, it can't lean, it can only scoot sideways, which it won't do. Get the brace wire diagonal backwards and the leverage reverses and tensioning the fence helps collapse the whole thing in the direction of the pull since now both the fence and diagonal wire are both pulling against the top of the corner.

The hole for the corner and the brace is dug to at least a foot or so below the frost line, so in NW Missouri, about 4 feet. When setting the post, you tamp it it, which may take almost as long as digging the hole. More if you use an auger to dig the hole. Tamping is not simply kicking the dirt back in the hole, tamping is compressing the dirt to a level that is the same or greater than what exists in the soil surrounding the hole. A tamping rod is narrow at the bottom to fit all the way down and a narrow end will keep poking holes in the dirt. Start tamping by kicking in a few inches of dirt, then start tamping.  Keep tamping, tamping and tamping until it all does the tighten up. Then kick in a little more dirt and do that again. Keep working around and around the hole, raising the level of compressed soil surrounding the post a few inches at a time, all the way to the top.

Get yourself some hedge post corners and hedge brace posts (hedge will not rot), set them this way, and they will still be there long after you are gone.
 
These are not the droids you are looking for. Perhaps I can interest you in a tiny ad?
Rocket mass heaters in greenhouses can be tricky - these plans make them easy: Wet Tolerant Rocket Mass Heater in a Greenhouse Plans
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!