Mike Jay wrote:For the purposes of this post I'm interested in a hypothetical greenhouse that would be for cool season veggies. Minimum of 28-34 degrees with 34-40 being more ideal. My reason for starting this thread was the Chicken Greenhouse Thread where Todd mentioned using a system like this in WI. I wanted to verify my assumptions about the system and get more information out there.
In my particular case I'm looking for tropical temperatures. I know I'd need serious additional heat to make that work (or saunas and hot tubs).
Thanks Troy, I haven't read that book yet but it's on my list. Especially now that you mention that it has good math in it. I've watched hours of Jerome's videos on Youtube. I take it you mean that for cloudy areas you need to insulate under the climate battery? It makes sense that if you enclose that 8' deep chunk of ground it would store the heat much better. Jerome/CRIMPI is high up in the mountains but I believe he has lots of sun in the winter. I'll be interested to read any details on making their system work in cloudy areas.
Todd Parr wrote:The other way to use the ground pipes is in a trench in a long line, where the pipes are just laid out in a straight line from the structure and back to it. In my mind, this would eliminate any appreciable ground battery. This is actually the way they recommend the pipe be run, for a number of reasons (cost of laying the pipe, ease of maintenance if there are problems, etc). The systems have been tested extensively and work well.
Todd Parr wrote:
The man that wrote the Citrus in the Snow book contained his tubes immediately under the greenhouse, but the people that publish his work and have done much testing on these systems have put out others publications documenting their work in the area and they recommend the tubes be placed in a trench in the manner I mentioned. I purchased CitS and the Geo-air A-Z publication and I found them to be excellent. The Greencube people are adding other free publications showing some of the their testing to people that have purchased those items. In the most recent one I read, they test an above ground hoop house against a Finch-style (CitS) greenhouse. I found it very interesting.
Joseph Lofthouse wrote:The mere act of placing a piece of glazing over a piece of earth creates a climate battery. As a wild-ass guess, I'd say that a piece of glazing over a piece of earth is approximately equal to a garden that is 300 miles further south, or 300 feet lower in elevation. Then, for a growing space that approximates even warmer areas, mass can be applied to the equation: jugs of water, stone walls, underground heat storage, etc... Supposing that the battery gets exhausted by temperatures under -20F? So what. How often do temperatures like that envelop the greenhouse? Maybe a few hours per year. Perhaps start a heater on those rare occasions. It's no different than starting an electrical generator after it's been cloudy for the 17th day in a row and the solar-electrical charged batteries are depleted. I add supplemental heat to my greenhouse about 10 nights per year, only on exceptionally cold nights, and only when I'm growing exceptionally frost tender plants.
Batteries can be made as big as people want to make them. But at some point, the cost of the battery ends up being greater than the cost of a heater...
Larisa Walk wrote:
No fans or complicated underground storage, just using the soil in the beds themselves as the thermal battery. One thing I dislike about underground rock or tube heat storage is that molds can get established in them and there is no way to clean them out (really a problem for living spaces but can affect air quality even in a greenhouse). K.I.S.S. is my motto when doing design of any system (keep it simple, stupid) and I remind myself of it whenever things start getting too complex or with only one key component that can make the system fail entirely.
Kevin Swanson wrote:
Todd, do these people explain why the tubes should not be run directly under the greenhouse structure the what that CRMPI has found? I think we should be supporting CRMPI here because they are making the best practice data available for climate batteries for free, although I'm struggling to find it on their website. In the book "Forest Garden Greenhouse" they say they are making the information available for free...
Bryan de Valdivia wrote:Todd, thank you for the links for CitS and Greencube. For somebody looking to save money, am I inferring correctly that the Greencube folks co-authored the CitS stuff and are the folks doing the most current/updated work in that vein?
Kevin, I don't have the "Forest Garden Greenhouse" book, but I took a look at the CRMPI website and likewise couldn't find any best practices info on their climate battery work. Do you happen to have more info on how to search for that info on their website or a related site?
henry Trott wrote: ....or 25% if outside of the greenhouse. This is according to https://www.youtube.com/user/LDSPrepper/featured
It would seem to me (perhaps in my ignorance) that these climate batteries would, like all batteries, need to be recharged from time to time. This could be done on a daily basis by using the heat at the peak of the greenhouse being pumped into the ground tubes, the use of a compost heating system, solar heating tubes, RMH, water storage for mass. use of aquaponic water for mass etc.
The climate battery will be a portion of my overall system to be modified as need be, but only a part of the whole.
The experiment continues...
Todd Parr wrote:I'm not sure about using perforated 4" tubing. I've read conflicting research on it. Right now I'm leaning towards non-perf tubing, but I haven't entirely made up my mind yet.