Broken bone, or maybe just fractured

My mother thinks she either broke or severely fractured her thigh bone trying to carry my 12 year old niece on her back last night. She felt a crunching grinding sensation but the pain isn't worse than child birth and it isn't obviously out of alignment, so she thinks fracture is most likely. As it is, she can't put any weight on the leg and is laying on the couch in pain. She doesn't have medical insurance and so is refusing to go to the doctor until Monday, at the earliest. That's assuming she goes at all.

I just received my copy of Nourishing Traditions, and though I'm sure some of the answers are in there, it's a fairly thick volume. On top of that it will not make suggestions for medicinal herbs that will help with the pain or speed healing. From a different thread on here, I see a suggestion of eating yarrow leaves or making tea from them to help speed the healing of broken bones. They say boneset is a common name. We do have yarrow and boneset. Different plants, but I'm going to look into it. Can anyone make any other suggestions that might help her? I'm willing to order herbs delivered if they're really effective. As far as medicinals available on our property, right now I only have culinary herbs, boneset, yarrow, plantain, and echinacea. I am making a pot of chicken and rice to get sneak some bone broth into her, also. She's not been impressed with my bone broth attempts in the past.

Hi Casie.

OUCH! i send healing to your mom.

Other folks know healing herbs better than me. so please allow
me to share some other things to help you and your mom.
~~~~~~~~~

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DMSO--Dimethyl Sulfoxide (converts to MSM/sulfur) if she can use...

DMSO, found online and at veterinary/farm supply/health food stores.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=dmso+fracture&pc=MOZI&form=MOZSBR

I have experience taking liquid DMSO and using the DMSO/Aloe vera gel rub.

DMSO also takes other substances deeper into the tissues. So you can use it to
with the herbs you have.

Because it does take things deeper into tissues, Make sure you clean her
skin well if you use it topically.
You can mix it with infusions. oils, etc.

I prefer to take it orally, due to its tendency to make my skin feel itchy. i take one teaspoon in about two to
four ounces of distilled water, three times a day.

Some folks use juice or other

It has helped so much to reduce 30 years of pain and dental issues.



DMSO liquid is available from various companies. here is more info.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=dmso+liquid&pc=MOZI&form=MOZSBR


DMSO quickly gets into all the tissues of the body within minutes and does its healing thing.

Some folks and animals experience a garlic type odor from their bodies when using.
We first used the brand readily available from the Health Store and had odor. we now
use Pharma.medical bought on amazon and have zero odor taking three doses a day.

If you use the gel/rub, and it itches, you can use peppermint or other oils which
reduce itching



THERE IS NO overdose of DMSO. it is MUCH safer than aspirin. DECADES of human and animal application.
it can help with brain injuries, paralysis, and well, I'll just let you do more personal research.

plenty of websites, videos, and moreonline to help you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

These are two things you can do quickly to help her. and YOU~

BEST OF everything on this healing adventure.
Gail

So far it's looking like I want to order comfrey and horsetail specifically for this. For this and a whole host of other reasons I'll want to order nettles. I may order plantain also because we don't have much of it in the yard and what's growing right now is still tiny.

We have cleavers in the yard, which I forgot could also be medicinal so I'm brewing a tea using those and plantain.

I think I would worry about bone density if a thigh bone broke or even fractured that easily....and I would want an x-ray just to be sure that it was a only a fracture and not a break.  Fifteen years ago I fell and the pain was excruciating...the x-ray showed a fractured sacrum that I knew I could heal with rest so I refused any other treatment, but had it been a break I would have taken a different route.

good luck to your mom and hope for the best outcome.....sounds like you are well on track to beef up your medicinal pantry

She's leaning more and more to the idea that it's a stress fracture. Yes, we're all a little freaked out about what this says about her bone health, overall. I've been worrying about it for a while, which is why she already has an opinion on my bone broth. Maybe after we work our way through the nourishing traditions cookbook we'll a better idea of how to help her strengthen the rest of her skeleton. For now she's drinking the plantain/cleaver tea for the mineral content. We'll have to wait for the rest of the herbs to arrive.

She's already pushed back the idea of a doctor's visit to Wednesday. She does have a long history of being a better diagnostician than the professionals including a couple of life saving incidents, so this is the least freaky part of the whole thing.

A fracture that happens that easily might be indicative of a more serious problem and a medical exam might be in order before treatment.

Casie Becker wrote:She's leaning more and more to the idea that it's a stress fracture. Yes, we're all a little freaked out about what this says about her bone health, overall. I've been worrying about it for a while, which is why she already has an opinion on my bone broth. Maybe after we work our way through the nourishing traditions cookbook we'll a better idea of how to help her strengthen the rest of her skeleton. For now she's drinking the plantain/cleaver tea for the mineral content. We'll have to wait for the rest of the herbs to arrive.

She's already pushed back the idea of a doctor's visit to Wednesday. She does have a long history of being a better diagnostician than the professionals including a couple of life saving incidents, so this is the least freaky part of the whole thing.

Casie, I just remembered this thread. https://permies.com/t/45357/kitchen/positive-anecdotes-suggestions-improving-bone
It has a lot of good advice for improving bone density if that turns out to be an issue with your mom.  

How is she doing?

I don't want it to sound like I'm knit-picking, but terminology is important, especially in medicine.  A break in a bone is a fracture.  If she broke her thigh bone, it's a fractured femur.  Lots of people think that "fracture" means "crack", but that isn't the case.  In addition "pain isn't worse than childbirth" isn't indicative of anything.  I broke a bone in my hand and had no pain whatsoever, but I couldn't move my middle finger.

The femur is a very large, strong bone, and if it broke carrying your 12 year old niece, I would urge you to talk her into the doctor visit, even if it is just to put her (and your) mind at ease.  All the best to her.

Lots of people think that "fracture" means "crack", but that isn't the case.

Now I am confused...I guess what I had was a 'crack" rather than a 'fracture'?  Fracture and break mean the same thing when it comes to bones?  


thanks...always good to understand words in the same way...

Judith, in actuality, there is no such thing as a "crack" in a bone.  I was using that as an example of what most people mean when they say "fracture".  I didn't word it well.  Any time a bone's structural integrity is compromised, it is a fracture.  If the bone sticks out through the skin, it's an open or compound fracture.  A break where the bone stays aligned is a non-displaced fracture.  There are lots more terms used by doctors that are much more specific, oblique fracture, spiral fracture, etc., but any time you break a bone, it's a fracture.  I wouldn't want to guess what happened to you, but maybe you had a non-displaced fracture?  

Todd Parr wrote:Judith, in actuality, there is no such thing as a "crack" in a bone.  I was using that as an example of what most people mean when they say "fracture".  I didn't word it well.  Any time a bone's structural integrity is compromised, it is a fracture.  If the bone sticks out through the skin, it's an open or compound fracture.  A break where the bone stays aligned is a non-displaced fracture.  There are lots more terms used by doctors that are much more specific, oblique fracture, spiral fracture, etc., but any time you break a bone, it's a fracture.  I wouldn't want to guess what happened to you, but maybe you had a non-displaced fracture?  

thanks...got it now  My chiropractor actually took the x-ray of my sacrum/lower back after a fall twenty years ago and because he said 'fractured sacrum' I assumed not 'broken' and went home. Yes, apparently a 'non-displaced fracture'. Now I see the distinction...my son once had a broken/fractured arm with the bone definitely 'displaced'.  Funny how we get stuck in certain ways of using words without really thinking about them.....I'm glad you jumped in here.

Judith, I think many people are confused about the broken vs fractured thing, but it is important to note, while a compound fracture or a closed, displaced fracture obviously looks much more dramatic, a closed non-displaced fracture can be just as serious, because the bones structural integrity is gone.  A non-displaced fracture can easily become a displaced fracture.  Picture breaking a wooden dowel in two, and then just sticking the broken ends back together.  It may stay in a relatively straight line, but a small nudge will change that.  Either way, I'm glad everything turned out well and you healed correctly.  I hope Casie's mom turns out as well.

I am sorry to hear about your Mom.

I spend almost all day yesterday researching "pain" for DH.  Turmeric 500 mg for three times a day; Tart cherry juice; raisin soaked in gin; Certo [fruit pectin for making jelly] put in juice.  [I also researched how to make homemade pectin].

These may not offer results for your Mom's condition but might be worthwhile after her recovery.

Cracks pops crunches and grindy noises can happen, even be normal, and not mean anything.  But inability to bear weight or bruising swelling and big pain are Bad.  Timely intervention can save someone from big inconvenience (limp infection malunion necrosis).  Especially with older people.

"lols" (little old ladies) can sometimes  withstand a lot more mentally and emotionally than their bones can.  If it ever looks deformed don't debate, get it looked at.

She's in less pain now.  I really jumped on her about the risk she was taking and how serious a broken femur can easily become when I caught her trying to walk around without even a cane.  She's promised not to try that anymore.  She's also getting better about asking for help so she isn't trying to get up and down throughout the day.

The mental stress of worrying she's a burden will probably be the hardest part of her recovery.  She'd never push any of her children to ignore an injury like she wants to do with her own. I've got one more argument that I'm holding in reserve if she turns out to need more motivation. I

The comfrey and other herbs will arrive today. Hopefully that will increse her healing speed.  I'm gonna go read the thread about improving bone health now.  Thank you for the link.

I'm glad that she is in less pain.  Years ago I had a hairline crack in my finger, it took years for that pain to go away.

Here is a quote from another thread:

Michelle Johnson wrote:Here's my input on the best treatment for a broken bone.  Use Homeopathic remedy for comfrey called: Symphytum (it heals it way faster and takes away the pain).  Also a 200 C dose is  better than a 30 C dose but both are ok. Then for the nerve pain take Hypericum (Homeopathic), and for the muscle pain and bruising take Arnica (Homeopathic). All of these are little tablets that you dissolve under your tongue. Caffeine may antidote them.

The other thing that helped me was eating an anti inflamatory diet! You can't believe how much this helps. I was literally out of pain when I followed it and back into extreme pain when i went off it, in spite of the pain pills. I found that for me Naproxin worked better than anything else for a pain pill but many times I didn't need it if I followed the diet and was careful.

Also this thread has some good links:

https://permies.com/t/31688/Thread-wishes-Jocelyn-broken-arm

This is probably going to be a good wake up call for me. I'm going to try to keep a few more medicinal herbs on hand and probably plant a few more besides. If she won't go to the doctor for a broken bone I think I need to prepare for everything. It's hard to feel like I should force this issue when so often, in our own experience, the home remedies have worked better even when we've consulted doctors.

We'll see if we manage to shift the diet to something more supportive also. This is an area where we might have literally 'too many cooks in the kitchen' as well as limiting factors of food allergies. I'm hoping that something in Nourishing Traditions will capture my sister's interest enough to help there. She does more cooking than anyone else.

Here are a couple of threads you might be interested in:

https://permies.com/t/53620/kitchen/cooking-tumeric

https://permies.com/t/2776/kitchen/Weston-Price-Foundation

Wow, apparently my mother breaking her bone was just a dry run. My youngest niece broke her wrist today, more severely. Because we just went through this with my Mom, I have a home medicine chest fully prepared for just this circumstance.

I'm probably going to be applying a comfrey poultice closer to her shoulder than the break site. The temporary cast goes almost that high, but I'm hoping that not having any filter organs between there and the break will let the active chemicals travel down the arm.

She's going to be so sick of nourishing teas by the time she recovers, though. She already hates soup.

I cracked my tibia just below the knee three years ago. It took 10 months to recover. I did get it xrayed after I spent a week in bed behaving as it didn't seem to be fully broken BUT swelling wasn't going down. The one that read the xray said about five-ten pounds more force would have broken it. They gave me a choice of a walking cast or splint, I took neither as the splint was excruciating to try to strap on. I mostly ate extra calcium and went to walking with a cane, and bought a sit on garden cart to work outside with. I did have some PT prescribed after 2 weeks and did those to keep the muscles happy. I've had many a broken toe, long story, and I got better at splinting those than the ER.  My little toes are mostly courtesy, there's not much of a real bone in there anymore, just lumps. When I did three on the left side with a mousetrap and splinted and went to doc, we compared notes and I broke more toes than he's seen in practice (we're about the same age). I've broken nose too four times and that again, was getting it reset right away (it starts to knit up really fast and if you don't get it set, they might have to rebreak it in the ER to try to set it straight~!) Thinking the rest of them are two bones in right foot, next to each other, at different times, and that sorts all my breaks.

Proper immobilization, diet support (such as calcium and vitamin D) and PT have helped in my case. I will try to remember comfrey if I end up that way again.

I think anyone serious about at-home remedies should learn the basics of kinesiotaping*, particularly lymphatic cuts to help with swelling in cases like these.  So far, I have taped a broken hand and a broken foot on other people, which tided them over until they could get to the doctor during daylight hours.  It reduced the local swelling and helped managed the pain.  I have to say, personally, I would not have messed around with a femur. In general, I would also take great care with comfrey until you know that the bones are positioned to set properly.  But for those cases where you're thinking "I don't know if this is a sprain or a break and nothing is sticking out and I can survive a day or two, kinesiotape can make all the difference.

*the materials of kinesiotape are decidedly not "permie", but I do consider this a very useful tool for any homesteader, particularly given the current state of health care in the United States.   Maybe think of it akin to using diesel to dig earthworks.

Strangely enough I bought some of that tape thinking it would help my mother at least fashion a splint when she was refusing to see a doctor about the femur. We didn't end up using it, instead going with a more traditional ace bandage. It's sitting in the bottom of our first aid supplies. Pyp's already been to the doctor and got a temporary splint. I would think that means they set it. Am I misunderstanding the process, we are after all still going to a specialist to get the permanent cast.

Deb, I don't know whether to be relieved or not to know you survive and remain active despite so many broken bones. This is the second bone Pyper has broken while I've had custody of her. The first one she tripped while skipping in the hallway at school. This one she fell off a hover board. It at least makes a better story. But I'm the only child of my generation who broke any bones and it took running full out and then jumping on my hands as I tried to imitate the Olympic gymnasts that summer. As hard as we try to give her healthy diet and activities this makes me worry that we're missing something major.

edit: She tripped, not stripped.

If you google "kinesiotaping lymphatic drainage" and pull up the photos tab, you'll see a ton of examples.  I'm sure there are some how to videos out there for each body part.   The basic concept is that you're pulling fluid towards a lymph node so the lymphatic system can remove the swelling more easily.  Great first aid for homesteaders and stubborn non-homesteaders. In addition to reducing swelling, it does provide some immediate pain relief.

The comfrey comment was directed towards the earlier accident with the femur, not the wrist!  

Hi Casie, i see this post is a couple months old but in the future if you think there is a fractured bone, you can test it with a tuning fork.... it doesn't matter what tune it is a. g. d etc.... tap the tuning fork on the table and then run it along the spot you think has the fracture and it should hurt  .... this is because it vibrates the the fracture ...which means pain. and that can at least let you know if its broke or just badly bruised. it won't work on your mom now because if the bone was fractured it will have already started to knit back together.

I don't even know that I've ever seen a tuning fork in real life.  I think we would have treated this the same, regardless.  If I stumble across one in the future I might add one to our first aid kit. Mostly it would be because it amuses me, but I keep the kind of medicine chest that's prepared for Armageddon.

Are the herbal remedies having any positive effect?  I'm just going to ramble off what is in my head, that I've held onto throughout the years.

Horsetail and nettles combined are excellent for building collagen and bone tissue.  Add to that regimen more herbs....comfrey, alfalfa, kelp, red clover, dandelion, oatstraw.

It's not about eating calcium supplements....it's about providing the building blocks for the body to create calcium.  And two that stand out are horsetail and nettles...I would definitely add the comfrey....and alfalfa....and kelp.  Using multiple herbs together is more effective than using a single herb alone.

Use comfrey after the bone is set properly...I've heard of stories of people using it on a fresh break that hadn't been set, and by the time they arrived at the doctor the bone was already beginning to set...in an incorrect position.

Fresh picked herbs are best, they have more of what's needed.  I like mountain rose herbs for my dry herbs, they seem to have fresher herbs than other places I've purchased from.

I've learned through Dr. Morse, that it is more effective to start out on larger doses of herbs and then taper off as you are seeing results.  Most peoples/companies recommendations of how much herb to eat is typically very low  ...I M O ...I think they do this to cover their ass...aka...liability.   I don't like purchasing the herbs in pills....it seems like a rip off to me, it's such a small amount of herb for such a large price.  And they always suggest very low dosages, which I find ineffective....and generally those pilled herbs are quite low in any beneficial components they once had, because they've been ground to a powder long ago and have been sitting on a shelf, box, warehouse, etc.  Get your own in bulk, and grind yourself...you'll most likely save money, and you'll get more potent/effective herbs.

diet..I'll work to keep it on point...this one is huge, and it can open a can O' worms.  But diet is huge, so I'm gonna share.  I have some well formed opinions/experiences along this topic.  And essentially it runs down like this...to my understanding.....  The body is a self cleaning self regenerating organism when sufficiently clean.  When you're eating a diet that is "appropriate" for the human organism, you'll begin to see regeneration...sometimes of a miraculous level, if you're willing to take it to that. You'll know it's the correct food for the organism when you begin to reach a level where you can dry fast.....it's the fasting at this level that brings about the regeneration.  Think of a sponge, to clean it out one fills it with water, then wrings it out, fill it with water...wring it out....over and over.  That's what fasting can do....especially when you reach the top level of fasting.....dry fasting.  Work up to this level....never jump into or out of a dry fast from a junk diet that is harming the body.  Here's some miracles from "appropriate" diet, herbs, and fasting...crushed vertebrae regenerating, paralyzed skydiver walking again, femur snapped in a car wreck that had been "healed/set" at a 17degree angle for years...straightened out in 10 months, glands regrowing, missing vertebrae from birth growing in, paraplegics walking again, quadriplegics regaining use of their limbs, neurological regeneration,....essentially the body will regenerate and heal when properly cleansed.  enough of those wonky opinions....LOL.  something about pudding having proof...  ok---need to stop, wanna keep sharing, and one can understand why when they, see/"third party", these types of healings, that one would want to continue to share.

But what I was trying to get at ultimately by mentioning diet, is that there are foods that will strip the body of calcium.  And the first places it goes to find that calcium are the bones and connective tissues.  One of the foods that has a huge impact on this is grain.  For some reason, that I'm not recalling, when a person eats grain the body has to neutralize whatever it is that the body deems harmful.  And it does this by stripping calcium from bones and connective tissue to neutralize the harm from grain.

diet--- can O' worms, but quite important
herbs--- large doses work better, find the freshest most potent you can, grind/powder your herbs yourself...again for potency/effectiveness.  Multiple herbs together are more effective than single herbs alone.

That's the basis of what I know, currently.
Maybe some of that is helpful.

ONE more that just popped into my head.  Robert O. Becker has a book titled, "The Body Electric".  He uses minor electrical stimulation to small pure silver rods that are in attached to the break in a femur.  Regrowth happens very quick, and I don't recall there being any mention to diet....it's purely the silver rods in the femur given electro-stimulation that regrows the bone tissue.  Good book, and I don't recall any more details, as my copy isn't with me currently.  Robert Becker was shut down by school politics, otherwise we would have people regrowing their own limbs instead of needing a prosthetic...I M O.  Maybe fresh made colloidal silver would have some sort of value...??  FRESH made...aka...make your own, because the stuff at the store has likely lost it's charge...which is said to be of immense benefit....plus the stuff at the store is WAY WAY overpriced.

Both broken bones are well on the way to healing.  My mother just got back from a vacation last week where she went on many hikes. She says that she thinks the herbs were what allowed such fast recovery.

My niece gets her final doctor's visit to officially stop wearing a brace on her wrist in a few days.  At two weeks he xrayed the break and she was moved from a cast to a brace that she could remove for bathing.  Last break she had a cast for several weeks, and the break was less severe.

Nothing that would stand up in court, but it's enough to earn permanent places in my medicine chest.  My mother has figured out that putting a scoop of dried nettles in the coffee maker is the easiest way for her to brew it. The only problem I have is that nettle tea is the best antihistamine I've tried recently, but it gives me headaches.  I am still going to use it on very bad days.  This area is in the running for world's worst allergies, every year.

Oh, Casie, so good to hear the positive update! I was concerned when I found this thread today. Well done!!

So many good suggestions here. I'd just like to re-emphasize the vitamin D. My sister was taking extra calcium, but was so deficient in vitamin D that the calcium wasn't being absorbed (adsorbed?) and turned into kidney stones - mega OUCH.

Take care and well done on being the herb healer in your family!  

COMFREY POULTICE - testimonial.      This spring while working outside I cracked a rib (I think)  when straining to do some work while simultaneously squatting, twisting my torso and reaching backwards deep into a little mini chicken coop,   I heard and felt a pop-crunch with a sharp pain in my side just under the boob.   It took my breath away so I sat and relaxed and assessed the damage.   Within a minute the pain had subsided to just a minor ache so I went back to work being very careful of body mechanics and keeping my torso stretched up as much as possible.    I thought it was maybe a muscle or tendon strain but by that evening it felt a little achey and sharp pain if I inhaled too deeply, lifted anything weighing over 6 oz, sneeze or cough, reaching... so I self-diagnosed a cracked rib, googled symptoms and treatment, took a couple ibuprofen and went to bed :)   These days doctors don't wrap/bind the ribcage but instead, recommend deep breathing to maintain lung health while recovering (prognose 4-6 weeks).   I decided the pain was not severe enough to be a displaced fracture so on Day 2 when it was more sore and sharper pain when breathing deeply,  I prepared a large comfrey poultice (fresh out of the garden), made a cloth wrap around the rib cage, and wore it all day while moving around,  freshened the poultice and wore it all night.   Day 3 was slightly better so I repeated the poultice that day and night.  Day 4 I felt MUCH better (actually only 2 days with the poultices).  Did poultices one more day and then it felt 80% better so I resumed normal activities, being careful of course.    It probably took one full week to recover to the point that I forgot about it until I overdid something like shoveling mulch or lifting a bag of flour, tehe.  

I'm like Casie's mom.  No insurance and grew up in an era when we didn't rush to the doctor for every little thing.   And I figure that, unless I'm in severe pain I'll give my body a chance to heal itself.    So I'm really grateful for the helpful advice offered here.   I agree with Joshua that we could do a much better job of self-healing if we had the right diet but it's so complex and our systems are bombarded with so many chemicals that it seems impossible.  I've been researching pain relief for various muscle aches and pains in order to break my dependence on NSAIDs so I'm going to try the recommendations here.

mary jayne richmond wrote:Hi Casie, i see this post is a couple months old but in the future if you think there is a fractured bone, you can test it with a tuning fork.... it doesn't matter what tune it is a. g. d etc.... tap the tuning fork on the table and then run it along the spot you think has the fracture and it should hurt  .... this is because it vibrates the the fracture ...which means pain. and that can at least let you know if its broke or just badly bruised.

A great series of posts.  A fracture and break are the same thing.  By definition, a fracture is a discontinuity in a bone.  I worked with a doctor who was looking after young trainees.  There was always one ot two who would get tibial stress fractures (tibial periostosis).  Rather than sending them off for bone scans, x-rays and the like, he would use a tuning fork as a diagnostic tool.  If there was no reaction, they were put on rest and physio (physical therapy).  Those with a positive response were immediately put on o load carrying and 12 weeks no marching, running and drill.  Because of the way the system worked, the positive cases had a bone scan to confirm the diagnosis.

Just as a word of caution, sometimes, all is not as it seems.  Bone pain or a fracture can be the first sign of cancer, especially breast cancer for women and prostate cancer for men.  These two cancers are often undiagnosed until something else happens.  My brother-in-law was diagnosed with prostate cancer at the age of 42 because he had hip pain - unfortunately it was too late despite some aggressive treatment.

The fact that calcium is being paired with vitamin D2 is good.  There are many people in the developed world who are vitamin D deficient and this directly affects the calcium absorption.  I agree that swelling is the body's way of splinting just keep a check if you splint one finger/ toe to the next one so that the circulation is not cut off.  In the fingers and toes, the blood vessels are on the sides of the digit.

Holism is an important part of medicine.  But in some cases, we must switch between modalities to effect a cure. IE. we may have to see a chiropractor, medical doctor, Chinese medicine practitioner or an ancillary health therapist.