avg. lbs of TDN yearly yield (total digestable nutrients) per acre of bermuda pasture vs. an (avg.) north american browse acre which is probably impossible....
even more impossible would be to determine whether the loss from parasitism and slightly lower quality of forage on grass is worth the reduced expense and resultant reduced impact on the enviroment than lower stocking rates in a larger area.
the near impossibility of acheiving those figures leaves me to collecting anecdotal evidence from like minded producers regarding the browse vs. graze issue for goats.
this list goes on!
They are often used to control invasive species. I have been told they are being used to clear the under growth in some areas to reduce the fire danger. (something of course that would have been naturally taken care of if people didn't have the misconception that all forest fire is bad)
Before I do so, does anyone know any adverse effects this may have?
Or with goats, is it pretty safe to say that they just won't eat it, if it's poisonous to them?
(or maybe Nothing is poisonous to them, heck they'll eat poison ivy!)
There is an English site that just barely mentions that "Some varieties are also toxic to cattle", but that's all it says.
An alpaca site says it is 'potentially dangerous'. Other places use it as forage. So, could this just be in the amount?
Several sites agree that the Chinese Butterfly Bush, Buddleia lindleyana, is toxic to livestock, but the common B. davidii is also from China, so... A British article goes through its characteristics, but doesn't make any reference to toxicity: http://members.lycos.co.uk/WoodyPlantEcology/docs/web-bud.htm
Okay, a definite stance: " According to the Sunset Western Garden Book (1995), this species in not listed as poisonous."
I've read about people who 'rent' out their goats to clean up patches of blackberry vines and other nuisance plants. Some posts, a solar charger, some electric fencing or netting, and you're in business?
and OMG, Leah, that is So like goats. If I hand it to one of them they start bopping each other and what not, and eat whatever without thinking. That's a big consideration.
Of course they like apples, pears, plums, too. And probably wouldn't turn down elderberry. I'm trying to think of plants that humans like a lot too.
Sue, who can't walk within 15 feet of a blackberry vine without it jumping out and grabbing her...
freeholder- you might consider switching to cydectin. it has less potential to harm dung beetles. there are many herbal wormers on the market. some of them may work to help suppress parasite activity over time just like grazing lespedeza. but in my opinion you would have a tough time finding anything adequate for treating acute infections. it is far better to prevent reinfection through managment of course as I am sure you know. it appears that breeding for resistance is promising prudent and effective also. here is a blip about it in sheep.
at my old house there was a ton of artemesia growing in a feild nearby. I did my own little experiment. doing several fecals then cutting down a whole bunch of artemesia and and feeding it to the goats. I saw no obvious change in fecal egg amounts (although I don't have a mcmaster slide for super accurate results).
I use the FAMANCHA method primarily now. it has always correlated so well with egg amount in the fecals that I really trust it. It helps prevent or slow down the ability of the parasites to develop resistance by only worming the goats that need it but it is something that can be determined in the feild which is great because who has time to fecal all their goats every few weeks!!??
Leah Sattler wrote:
tell me more!
It sounds crazy, but salatin is all about being way beyond organic and really does his research, so it ends up being one of those things I don't understand and just follow in his footsteps.
Once a month, all water for all animals has basic-h (a surfactant) put in it.
And, there are loads of stories all over the net of animals near death from parasites and loaded to the gills with all sorts of parasite meds and then this is tried and they are cured.
I have heard of the basic h thing. I was afraid to try it because I had difficulty understanding how it doesn't give them the runs or doesnt' affect the flora of the gut. or maybe thats how it works!
As for basic-h .... my guess as to how it works is that since it is a surfactant, then I wonder if the liquids in the gut hold less oxygen for a day. The animal gets oxygen from its lungs. The digestive tract parasites would get oxygen from the stuff in the digestive tract. If the digestive tract would not be able to hold oxygen for a day, then I wonder if the parasites would suffocate.
Not to doubt you, and I have no basis for saying this, but don't intestinal parasites attach to the intestinal wall and suck blood? Now there's a source of oxygen!
I can't imagine how, except for the ruminant's gathering of material, eating contents of the bowels is a net energy gain over simply eating the green material before it gets in the bowels. But perhaps I simply lack imagination...
all the troublesome parasites in goats.......mainly the barber pole worm......suck blood. most chemical wormers interfere with their metabolism somehow. there might be something to the basic h thing. I'm not one to run on faith alone though except for maybe some things that have very little potential to do damage. barber pole worms can kill a vulnerable goat within days of the onset of obvious symptoms so.......
I am really annoyed with my goats right now. they have access to 24 acres. I had them in a smallish area (1acre?) by the house that had a gate open to the back woodsy/brushy area of the property. every day 3 times a day they went out, pigged out on the brush and came back to cud like clockwork. now I put them in the biggish area (3 acres?) with the new and better shelter with a back gate open to the brushy woodsy area. a large portion of the time they are staying and grazing close to the ground on the crappy, can't-really-be called-pasture nearest the house! so much for them knowing what is good for them.! dummies! or at the very least not being so lazy they can't walk an extra 50 yards to go out the gate and eat the good stuff! might have something to do with it being 100* now though. I dunno. I don't want to go far from my house either when its this hot!
i try to put in some black thorn sloes that have been eaten that why their branches change direction so but not done for.
Mijo is the staple diet of people in some parts of Africa.
I wanted to send a few more photos of pruned evergreen oaks to back up my statement that they prune them, you can see how short one storeyed they are. Cutting prunnings for goats is one way of feeding goats that means the tree does not get over browsed.
The first is of a encina among lots of encinas kept as bushes, chaparras. Of course, if you don't accompany your goats as shepherds do here, they may eat these bushes down too far. The second is of a recently beheaded, desmochado, encina, the branches are beging to grow back on the main arms, they will prune these branches so that the tree grows well, these trees are like fruit trees, pruned to increase their crop of acorns, that fatten their sheep, cows, pigs etc., and the prunnings will go to the cattle.
The book that talks of this most is the Antonio Sanchez Belda's book written for the, Ministerio de agricultura, pesca y alimentacion, "Razas Bovinas Españolas". spanish bovine races. You pass through the chapter on each race untill you get to the bit called, exploitation, and then go to the bit on alimentation and there, if it says ramon de encina, they eat evergreen oak leaf, and if it says ramon de acebuche it is of olive or wild olive. Some races are not marked as appropiate for this sort of farming, as liking tender pastures. I have the 1984 edition and the newer edition.
The most incredible page on the diet of a cow is the canary cow. They are given, all parts of banana plants, bananas are a principle crop in the canary islands. The book says, the desiquilibrated composition of these residuse, very especially as concerns their mineral content, on top of their reduced protein content and low energy, produce frequente digestive problems that the cows bare without great complicacions aand maintaining a good coat. They are also given the residues of the tomatoe, sweet corn, cucumber, pepper, potatoes, boniato, clavel, production, green or dry. Meal cereals are only rarely given to them, only when they have digestive complications and other sorts of feed and hays, never.
There is also book of races of sheep too, "Razas Ganaderas Españoles Ovinos". by C. Esteban Munoz. In Spain you use your fathers surname in first place and your mothers in second. It also has interesting lists of feeds for Canary sheep. Cut up banana plants in the Canaries, cut up cactus, pitas, and prikley pears, i don't know what their latin name is , cut up bits of vine called panpana that is a feed you can grow where summers are dry.
I think the list of feeds for different races are more or less interesting according to how honest the expert of the region is. Some don't give much information and seem to be pretending to be modern though they are talking of sheep that live in an enormouse area and a depressed one and such as the merinos who occupy the west and south west of spain and it is hard to believe they don't eat the traditional feeds in these areas.
The maellano sheep eat left overs from horticultural growing that is normal in some parts of Spain, the leaves of olive trees, the left overs from the olive presses the leaf and shells of almonds and stubble.
The Rasa Aragonesa eats and i am quoting, time, rosemary, lavender,and esparto which is an incredibly tough sort of grass that they use as soles for those rope soled canvase shoes . It is a very dry country grass and here it says the exploitacion of the esparta is left totally in the hands of the sheep, they are missing out the part people cut their hands to pieces on to turn into shoes. in valleys and fertile places they eat subproducts of the things grown there, the neck and leaves of the beet and the stubblegleanings of grain husks and stalks . and any weeds.
For the mallorquino, the trees are fundamental the almond the fig the olive the carob bean tree. here the list of the food given to the sheep is extensive. The account goes, "the sheep eats the fallen leaves of the almond and the shell of the nut of almonds", (this habit of eating fallen leaves helps desertificacion, the leaves in the countryside where i have a house, usually all disappear, and the sheep spend the night in the stables so that not all there manure ends upon the feilds. The fallen leaves they eat don't return to the feild they came from). They eat figs, "Figs untill now have been an important part of their diet, unfortunately their use is declining. The beans of carob tree, the branch of olives,the leaf of vines which is called panpana when feed to the live stock. Other plants that come with in the margen of browsable are el lentisco, pistacia lentisco, rosemary and heather and cistus".
The alcarreña eats gorse, lavender, esparto, and alfaalfa, the ursu uva,, a sort of cranberry that hugs rocks in an attractive way,and oaks the evergreen and the faginea,
The segureño, that lives on very dry pastures of andalucia, eat sabina, the juniperus thurifera and other junipers as well as gorse time etc.
I am getting tired, I don't ilke writting and looking up details in the book all at once. I found on in one chapter that they recomending the stubble, leftovers, of crops of leguminosos . Another mencions their race of sheep eating broom.
IF, Leah, your land is dry, if you plant an encina or a olive every so often you will have the shade fruit and branch, ramon. Rama means branch. They, horses, sheep, cows and goats, don't eat the branch, they eat the leaves off the branch you cut for them, leaving the branch to bury as huggleculture I suppose.
Sheep are the least given of live stock to eating branch to browsing they normally eat whats on the ground.
Here one reason for overgrazing is to allow other plants to grow without to much competition from grass, like the plantains, plantago mayor or menor, thatb they eat plantagos is just an idea of mine. there seem to be so many of them in pasture land here, that are maybe better for the sheep than grass. According to a british scientist Roland Ennos, grass is full of silicie, glass, it wears down live stocks teeth, Roland Ennos supposes that grass fills itself full of glass to protect itself from herbivores. I will try to take my book of sheep and such and get myself to transalate the tender plants they mencion as being part of the diet of sheep.
If the clover dies down with you in summer, leaving a mulch of dry clover, maybe that would make it easier to plant a winter cereal in autumn.
Susan Monroe or Brenda Groth talked about planting an autumn cereal in the thread on cover crops. I don't remember, are winter cereals oats and rye.
I have heard of smashing up gorse and feeding it to sheep or just giving it straight to goats, i suppose from ireland. Gorse grows here where its also hot as it is with you.
this is sure to be a mess but i can't stand doing anymore correcting.
Some races are described as being specially good for dry places because they store enough fat to outlive the season of less food. the guirra sheep which is of African Moroccan origin climbs trees like a goat to eat leaves.
I have a photo of sheep these are Colmenar sheep, Colmenar is village that is close to Madrid, eating stubble or the few dry sticks of grass or weed sticks that grew on the fallow land. rose macaskie.
It is not normal for people to have them as far as i know, this farmer was proud of having an unusual breed, they are certainly hard to forget. rose macaskie.
I have said that sheep and goats, even probably some of the breeds of cattle here in Spain eat time, as in the herb time, and here is a photo in which time figures though you can't see them very well, at the edge of the plough at the foot of the trees are bushes of time. I have a photo of a hillside covered in lavender and it is easily recognizable but i have to scan it, i will post it later.
The moment the land is on a slope it becomes pasture land, at least sylvo pastoral land here, at least in traditional farming, In these livestock parts of Spain, where growing wheat is only for the villagers use or they only grow cereals for the live stock the real farming activities in these parts is live stock and the production of wood.
Before the sabina albares, juniperus thurifera, produced all the beams and columns of the houses and other constructions. It is a very hard wood and according to Juan Oría de la Rueda they have found enormous beams of this wood still in very good condition in roman bridges when they where restoring them. Juniper was the iron of the old constructions.
The sheep apparently eat the leaves of sabinas albares especially ones that have sweet leaves, at least some races do according to Juan Oría.
Farms “dehesas” that have sabinas on them are sheep farms while the farms with evergreen oaks encinas on them are dedicated to cows and horses and pigs. The sabina albar is a tree that grows on the top of mountains another reason for dedicating the land where it is grown to sheep and goat farming. The trees also provide shade for the animals.
Really it is an interesting tree it grows at a height of between 1,500m and 3,150m in the alto atlas in Morocco, higher than pines and higher than the cedar atlanticus, also natural to that country that also grows at a higher altitude than pines do. Jesús Charco “El Bosques Mediterráneo en el Norte de África, Biodiversidad y lucha contra la desertificacion”. So it bares high solar radiation, hot dry summers and long cold winters in bad soils, a hardy tree. Apparently the juniper indicus does the same in more easterly regions.
A good tree to combat desertification at high altitudes. rose macaskie.
I have let drought tolerant plants dry out completely in a pot and it's killed them or I didn't water them well enough before they got established and they died. I've never tried to grow lavender, and it sounds to me like it will rot quickly if you overwater it, but...it probably needs a little supplemental water until it gets established in the ground.
It probably doesn't like extremes either. Bone dry in the pot on a hot day? Don't give it a lot of water all at once. Just a little. Most plants will shut down when it's in the high 90's or over 100. In other words, they don't take up the water during the extreme heat. Unfortunately, I've found a wilted plant on a very hot day & thought, oops, I need to water you! I water it, it doesn't use the water normally, and the rot process begins.
Another issue is if you let it get really dry in the pot, and then it gets really wet (from a rainstorm) while still in the pot, that will also be problematic. The amount of foliage on the plant affects how much water it will use. Drought tolerant plants (in pots) should be planted in light soil that really drains well. A quick google and I found a suggestion to water lavender plants (in containers) from the bottom instead of the top. Many plants do better this way. It sounds to me like a terra cotta pot would be better for a rot prone plant, than a plastic one would be. I realize you'll be planting it in the ground eventually. Keeping it alive until then is the trick!