greenhouse suck factor

Mt Goat throw me a bone or something.
Is there any case in which you would say a greenhouse is productive? Could there be an 18% effective intilligent use of greenhouses?
If I am currently putting into production 300 square feet of parsnips,carrots, cabbage, spinach, leeks and claytonia that would otherwise not be producing now am I making any step towards sustainability?
Potatoes that I can't normally plant outdoors until May planted undercover in Mid March produce new potatoes in July.
Just for reference does your experience include gardening in cold climates? If so at what altitude?
Is it possible to divorce culture/civilization from a discussion of food sustainability and permaculture? (The agriculture permaculture)

At this point people, probably best to drop it.  Apparently you can't use anything like a greenhouse to do good in some people's minds because they would simply say you shouldn't live there in the first place.

Might as well agree to dis-agree

Agreed

Rose,thanx for putting so much effort into analysis and advice.It is somewhat cultural as I enjoy verbal fencing.In the Hip Hop world we call this a rap battle.Our agendas are differnt.I dont care if many of you change.I`m here to speak to those who do hear truth in what Im saying;embeding these threads so 1 in 100 people say"hey,lets not get a greenhouse and pioneer something different instead"If the rest of you want to make your food system dependent on civilization,then so be it ,but I want to be on the winning team!

Lapinobert,thanx for playing along!Its really not you.I relize I`m not going to encounter a title match here but its nice to fish for something new.To be fair,Ive had unlimited time in the last 10 years to refine my arguments(yes,ive hated greenhouses for 10yrs).I feel called to present my case in the form of public debate.This site,mearly my deep winter outlet for putting my truths out there and you somewhat of a pawn in that so please take it all in good humor(I certainly have).Youve obviously got it down and cool to see you are growing claytonia(a fav of mine).Their will be enough scrap glass around for our lives and thats all we got to worry about so if you want to pioneer life without greenhouses I would focus on bringing in new plants to make up for the percieved lose of diversity that not having a greenhouse would bring and also much energy into ferments,drying,smoking,ect...but Im not gonna fault someone for not wanting to charge off into the unknown.

TCLynx,not agreed!The truth should not be supressed even if it makes us uncomfotable.I think its great for people to live sustainably everywhere possible but not great if they bring their industrial baggage with them.Thanx for your input though!only a few more posts till 100!

I am one that definitely tries to point out the down side of greenhouses to people when they bring up the idea.  Being in a hot climate they are of dubious use in many cases but yet, the county surrounding me is full of them since foliage production is a large portion of our economy here.

I'm against pointless spending on building things like greenhouses for those people who really won't use them much.  However, if some one is really going to put a tool to good use, then they should use it.  Just because I can dig with my hands, does that mean I should be condemned for using a shovel?

Think of a greenhouse as a tool that if the collapse happens, may not be easily replaced but that does not mean it shouldn't be used while it is available.  Heck, what if a climate shift happens along with the collapse, having some greenhouse plants might suddenly make you the new provider of suddenly climate appropriate plants.  But for most of us, a greenhouse is often a place for starting nursery stock and other things that need closer observation and attention.

Nothing is black and white there are always areas of grey.
You don't know it, till you live it. I know what works in my area and learn from each success and failure.
Just because one talks loudly and with sureity doesn't make it true. Sometimes listening will tell you if the ice your on is cracking or not.
We all have varying degrees of expertise and experiences though I have lived in the south I do not have enough experience to effectively advise TClynx on a greenhouse.
Having relatives who live and have farms in Canada I do have some experience to draw from on cool weather gardening.

OK ya-all,I have repetedly left room for reusing stuff and doing the best with what you can where you are at so if thats what your up to then Ive got no beef!!TCLynx;gotta hand it to you,out of left field the climate change point is damn good.Seems logical enough to almost rationalise buying new to survive/transition collapse.Using a greenhouse to start trees for a more permanent landscape seems smart too.Granted,supporting greenhouse construction might bring the collapse on faster which I guess is my purported aim soo...yea please buy as many new greenhouses as you can people!...Jeez,I just tried to report myself to the moderatore for insanity but it said that doesnt make sense???

I do tend to play devils advocate and can argue most points both ways.

I do not support the idea of lots of people building greenhouses just because.  However, many people do greatly improve their ability to grow more food by using season extending practices like cold frames, greenhouses, frost blankets, cloches etc.  If they can re-use these things year after year and grow more of their own food rather than having to buy food that is shipped in from afar, I'm not gonna fault them for it.  I think it is really important to get as many people gardening as possible before the collapse.

No matter what, things will be difficult after the collapse, just hoping to have enough knowledge before hand to survive and learn what else we need to know.

I have not caught up on reading all of this thread.  In fact, due to some holiday travel, I find myself waaaaay behind in... well .... everything.  But I put everything aside in order to push up a video I have of mike oehler's greenhouse.

I stuck it near the bottom of my wofati article.

Paul,thank god your back!Ive been holding off a mob of aggresive greenhouse promoting fundamentalists here in the thread you started.Hopefully you will be able to restore some order here.I`m totally innocent I swear!

Mt.goat wrote:
I highly recomend the Derrick Jensen book As the World Burns-50 simple things you can do to stay in denial.

I've read it.  I recommend that folks let it go. 

I know of one person that took it a bit too literally and embarked on some (IMOO) destructive behavior. 

The book makes some good points.  And makes some suggestions that really bother me.

TCLynx wrote:
Apparently you can't use anything like a greenhouse to do good in some people's minds because they would simply say you shouldn't live there in the first place.

Agreed.

I would really like to think that on this web site, people can freely express their opinion without fear of getting crushed by somebody with a different opinion.  I think it is fair to be persuasive.  I think pulling out the big guns shows that the argument is weak.

I still haven't finished reading everything in this thread, but I would like to remind everybody ....  I would appreciate it if all posts refrain from suggesting that anybody on this site is anything less than perfect.

I totaly agree that people should be able to freely express their ideas like"I THINK(IT?)Greenhouses totally suck and if anyone not on this site buys one they are supporting US occupation in the oil rich middle east,potentialy dooming their food systems future to a dependence on them,and poisoning all of us with the manufacturing process" and not ,like,have everyone jump all over them and stuff. OK,I think I might just naturally play with` big guns`.Unfortunatly,I specialize in whithering critique and ideological demolition jobs and have been working for a long time on a language of dissent(from agriculture)in order to properly frame my ideas.So pardon any percieved lack of politness on my part.We can all just try harder I guess!

I you replace "you" with "some folks", then it gets a bit smoother on my innards.

And if you qualify your statement as "I think" then it gets shifted from "abrasive rant"  to "absolute fact" because it is, after all, what you think.

Good points!I edited out the you so it no longer shows up.Not sure about qualifying every thing with `I think`.Given that a person can find facts/experts to prove any thing,shouldent the subjectivity of the statement just be implied?wouldnt want to neuter the potency of the statement too much and English-prime can definitly start sounding pretty fake but I`ll give it a shot!

Thanks Mt.goat.  I think that it is little things like that that make it easier for us all to feel comfortable.  And it makes new ideas more digestible.

Mt Goat, do you know anything about the earth sheltered greenhouse idea?

mt goat you say

"if anyone not on this site buys one they are supporting US occupation in the oil rich middle east,potentialy dooming their food systems future to a dependence on them,and poisoning all of us with the manufacturing process""

but what if you built your own greenhouse? and even from recycled materials that would otherwise have gone to the dump and eventually a landfill? my greenhouse far from helps the people in the middle east and there oil game. i can start plants much earlier in the season to get them established for a better crop, i start a lot for other people in the community as well so they don't have to go buy food either or at least as much. it also helps that I can grow food year around. If anything my greenhouse takes money away from those money greedy oil people and promotes a local system.

i do agree with you on the pre made greenhouses though, they suck for sure

Well after watching a video on this site that had footage from an earth sheltered greenhouse that really had a relatively small amount of glazing I realized that (in the right location mind you) it could be done with rather minimal off site materials.

I have the feeling that if we were more willing to modify our diets to actually, really reflect the biodiversity of whatever environment surrounds us, the "need" a greenhouse might suddenly evaporate.  I too have seen a lot of time and energy wasted on ill-placed or badly constructed green houses, and the pest problems seem to get worse as time goes by if you don't pull everything out and fumigate every few years (so I've been told).

Do we all "need" to eat tomatoes and peppers?  The mindset of the endless, seasonless diversity of the supermarket can lead us to spend lots of energy, money, and time growing things that aren't even staples.  Is this what we should be doing if we are hot on the trail of more sustainable ways of living? 

That said (or maybe queried):  Greenhouses can be awesomely useful structures, and as temperate climate dwellers, we're totally building one as a lean-to structure on the south side of the garage we might eventually get around to building someday.  That location is the best for winter solar gain in the whole of our clearing.  I want to use water storage in some form for temperature stability.  We are talking about making hot beds for below-soil heat during the winter months.  We also intend to have a water garden greenhouse in the solar collection area of our actual home, still in the design stage.  I want to use recycled windows, no plastic with a 15 year life expentancy.  I've seen supermarket freezer doors being used for this purpose.....I think that's brilliant and am hoping that we'll stumble across something like that in our craigslist browsings between now and construction. 

"and the pest problems seem to get worse as time goes by if you don't pull everything out and fumigate every few years (so I've been told)."

that's only in greenhouses that don't have a natural system going on, a greenhouse can be full of natural pest control. i let the frogs and lizards do the job, and they get food out of the deal.


"I want to use recycled windows, no plastic with a 15 year life expentancy.  I've seen supermarket freezer doors being used for this purpose.....I think that's brilliant and am hoping that we'll stumble across something like that in our craigslist browsings between now and construction. "

we got 20 double paned glass doors from an old house that was being torn down. found on craigslist too so keep looking! it was cheaper and much better than having to buy greenhouse plastic. looks better too.

Though blatent weaknesses,fossil fuel consumption and manufacturing pollution have become a distraction from another important point:People `need` a greenhouse AFTER they have CHOSEN to make themselves dependent on it.Most here build with scraps/less.Low input dependence!Given the cultural possibilities,is it wise to create a future where you `need`industrial technology?Some greenhouses even require running water and venting mechanisms to function properly!
And yet after talking with greenhouse users,I relise that most people are marginalized to annual production by the current social structures(renters,profit orientation,moving for job ect...)and wether or not that is ideal is a mute point as little other options appear to exist for them.

Mt.goat wrote:
And yet after talking with greenhouse users,I relise that most people are marginalized to annual production by the current social structures(renters,profit orientation,moving for job ect...)and wether or not that is ideal is a mute point as little other options appear to exist for them.

It would be fab if everyone could simply live in food forests and have more than abundant food supply already at hand with just a little tending and harvesting required.

However, it takes a few year to really get a food forest going and during that process something like a greenhouse to grow the seedlings for planting in the food forest is handy.  It is also a handy place to grow many other things to fill out one's diet as they are working on the food forest.

Then there are the people who really do live in cold climates and the greenhouse might give them a pleasant place to tinker with plants and get a little sun while it is too cold outside to be doing too much.

Back to points against greenhouses.  Yes, we should all work on eating more locally grown appropriate foods.  I'm still trying to figure out what those are in my location and how to grow/store enough of them to keep for the year.  Most gardening books are definitely not about my climate and I've found even less permaculture information about what to grow in my climate and what little information I have found specific to my climate, I've had a very difficult time sourcing the plants. 

So to do away with all need for greenhouses is gonna take time or we will be putting many people in dire straights to take them away cold turkey.

Mt goat your making assumptions that people NEED there greenhouses. when in fact most have them for pleasure, but it is true some don't even know why they have a greenhouse or or just wanted one because they are cool. I for one can get by just fine without mine, and have done so for years before i built it. as well as eating perennial plants and annual food that has been processed and stored for the winter from the growing season. but does a greenhouse help? of course it does, and it helps A LOT. with no energy consumption at all. you also don't need watering systems, mine runs off rainwater collected in the winter via gravity, no automatic vent openers or the likes either. it just seems like your putting everyone in the same boat(or the same greenhouse), when that's hardly true.

Mt Goat,
Please answer my previous questions.
Has your experience ever involved cold climate gardening? What zone? and number of seasons in that zone?
If so at what altitude?
You claim ten years experience please identify your experience and timeline in differing regions.
Without your identifying those parameters I find it hard for me to accept your arguments as knowledgeable and valid.
At what point does fossil fuel dependence rear it's ugly head. Mt Goat you have indicated that you have a cell phone do you realize the impact that has, and the proliferation of cell phone use is dependent on the vey oil consumption that you find so abhorent. Further more the cell phone tower blight that is necessary to provide service. If your going to talk the talk walk the walk.

I USE OIL and the resulting products.Do I really have a choice?Do I have to be happy about it and support it to avoid being labeled a hypocrite?Am I allowed to critique something wrong if Im forced to participate?Should prisoners be forced to promote prisons because they are in one?Why would a person bother to even look for alternatives unless they can first identify the problem.
Im zone 6/7,have lived here my whole life(37yrs),grew up on a conventional,annual based homestead where we grew most of our own food ect..Last yr we had 6 ft of snow that lasted 3 months.Low elevation(250).
Did people EVER live where you are without a greenhouse?Given the genetic diversity we now have available,what is possible now?

Please identify your experience so we can assess your valid and value of input for all areas.
I have identified the problem and am successfully using an alternative for my area. Seasonal extenders and greenhouses.
Again please identify your cold weather gardening experience. This would include altitude, time in a particular area, zone.
Your ten years of experience and timeline in different areas will help us in having a successful discussion.
I will gladly share my 20 years of cold weather gardening and my travel abroad and interaction with subsistence farmers in those areas. Once you identify your font of knowledge and its parameters of zonal experience.
Critique is based on having had experience, not having valid real time experience one can not give or have a debate that is fruitful.
A teacher can't teach unless they have knowledge on a subject, for the third time identify your experience.

The validity of my points is revealed through the popularity of this thread.I obviously have street credentials Lapinerbert.Wood heat-entire life.Growing/gathering most of my food-entire life.Hated civilization-ENTIRE LIFE!so lets stick to the validity of the points pls.It is possible that "somebody" may have moved to one of the very rare locations that is not habitable by humans,in which case-congragulations!"somebody" qualify to use the word `need` for technological life support products.

Nuff said. I stand by my experience and knowledge of local zonal requirements.
I am walking the walk. I have real time experience and success. 

Every place that humans have ever lived, they've managed somehow without greenhouses.  But, if I move back to Alaska, does that mean that I want to live on fermented fish and whale blubber like the Aleuts and Eskimo did?  (I'd be moving to a formerly Aleut area.)  No!  I'm used to having some vegetables to eat that need a little extra help in that climate -- I would use recycled glass to build a small greenhouse so I could get plants started for my garden, at the very least (like I've used recycled old windows here for cold frames).  I don't see any point in NOT using technology that's currently available, just because it wasn't available in the past and MIGHT not be in the future.  I'm no high-tech kind of person, and wouldn't use plastic since it doesn't last long and makes a mess when it disintegrates, but I would certainly recycle old windows and patio doors!

Kathleen

At any location you have the prehistorical(native)lifeway and post contact historical lifeways to draw from but...there is way more possibilities!Here is why:plants and information have been spread around the globe so currently humans have access to more useful species (WAY more).I can draw from all known models of existance spiritualy,ideologicaly,and physicaly.We do not have to go back to any models from the past but instead into the myriad possibilities and combinations created by such knowledge.Yes,we must invent new ways of living but is fiddling with clunky industrial technology like greenhouses really where we want to go(or a waste of our intelligence/potential)?If you had $1k to spend for the next 10 generations do you a-bring in a bunch of new usefull species of plants(trees,shrubs,perennials)or do you b-spend a few of the $ on annual seeds and the rest on a greenhouse?dooming yourself to each choices respective tasks for the next however long?Bow down to greenhouses at your own peril folks!

We have huge numbers of people alive and living in densely packed places now so we have think anew about life in general if we're going to survive.

well said!  And I agree, taking advantage of certain technologies now will probably not hurt us very much in the future, while making life more pleasant in the mean time.  I don't think that greenhouses are going to make irrelevant the incredible amount of food diversity and preservation knowledge available to us at this moment in history. 

I wasnt thinking of loss of relevence.Just noting that our lives are short and for many of us,our time and $ are limited.Given those limitations,anything you do will take away from the other possibilities.Ive spent $1-$2k a year on bringing in new plants and hundreds of hours a year researching what to bring in for the last 10yrs and dont expect to exaust my edible options for 2 more years(and that dosnt include the common fruits,medicinals,or annuals).Reaserching,assembling,and potentialy purchasing a greenhouse would take mental and physical energy away from bringing in plants that are better adapted.As for the "huge #s of people in densely packed places"goes:you NEED a greenhouse AFTER you have chosen to pack yourself too densly or chosen to move into an uninhabitable area.If a person or culture chooses to base their existance around a technology then they will technicaly `need` that technology.Change starts with the choices in how we spend our time and $ that are made now!Just say`NO`to greenhouses!

mt goat, have you heard of being holyier than thou. niggling or splitting hairs. You can make a gree house by putting up a few posts and covering them with plastic, look up secmol, in secmol it even looks good, you can find out you don't use it and never become dependent on it. If its usfull an dyou can't get another because the whole system has broken down well you wil just have to go cold turkey i am always ahhavign to go codl turkey over one thing or another thats life.
  Solar cooking nut uses her green house to dry their wood in and then has made another with an old dog pen and some hoops on top covered with plastic and grows tomatoes and dries the clothes in it .
  They can be used to sit in in winter if you provide them with chairs.
  I want some posts on the south fornt of my house and some plastic to put up so a green houe is formed in winterso as to use th ehot air in it to warm the house. If i got richer i would want to have a swimming pool in it maybe. Like larry hartwegs lovely ecological homes. look up Larry Hartweg abundant energy in harmony with nature. He comes from down florida way.
  You put some holes into the top of the wall of your house and get the hot air from th egreen houe coming in through the holes you diret the air through pipes to the back of the houe and down under your floors . . iIt will move back because of the tempratue gradient. maybe just a green house with the door between the house and the green house left open woiulkd get gets quite a lot of air running into your house.

  Making small rules no one can break but everyone is bound to break, allows people to dominate others . My brother in law had a rule about all the doors in the family house in the mountains. The kitchen door had to be kept open but not wide open, the door at the top of the stairs had to be shut, our bedroom door should, according to him,  have been left open all night. Everytime you went upstairs to fetch something from the sitting room upstairs he would be listening to see if you had shut the door at the top of the stairs  behind you, so if you thought i will just be a second getting that book or something of the sort and did not shut it behind you, it was, Rose you have not shut the door.
  Then it was Rose is a sociopate its impossible to live with her she does not shut the door .
  I used to be kept on the run all sunday  cleaning up the house while they bathed and read the papers and went to say good buy to their freinds and  Jose would look for some detail i had not done and use it to say i was selfish and it was impossible to live with me. such as  if i washed the ash rays and did not put them back in the sitting room. I am not your perfect houes wife but i was doing all the house work free. jose said he washed his own plate and cutlery it took him five minutes i was usually a good hour and much more in the kitchen.
    If you can do others down you establish your right to tell them what to do. For instance saying the rich work harder than the poor thats why they have to have more money , it is a lie often the poor work much harder than the rich but if you say it often enough you get believed. In that case it establishes your right to have more money and as a cosnequence  more education inclulding time to pass those exams you failed the first itme.
.One job of a boss is to be listening my husband listens while he reads when i clear up th ehouse on sunday in Guadaljara, if i make my self a coffee or stop for a moment his voice comes down the stairs Rose we are in a hurry. you can't have a coffee. agri rose macaskie.
 

We plan additions including greenhouse to connect home to barm so I do not have to walk in the snow to get from one to the other...greenhouse will be large enough for my fish as well as my plants.

I agree that rules need some flexibility.

However, most rules have a reason behind them.  I expect the rule about the door at the top of the stairs being closed was something due to temperature control in the house, if you leave it open all day, the head from down stairs all goes up and it gets hot upstairs or something like that.  I have rules like that as in don't leave the refrigerator door hanging open as you cook the meal, you should get out what you need and close the door so the rest of the food doesn't warm up and the energy is saved.  I'm rather strict about this rule since I'm the one paying the electric bills.  I also don't like when people open the doors and windows and then leave the heat or air conditioning running!!!

As to being dominated by others and their rules, well to some extent, it is you letting them dominate you.  Remember, you can set some rules too.  You can demand respect.  Guys don't automatically realize they are letting you do all the work, you have to speak up for yourself.

Thanx for your input Rose.The greenhouse discussion could be about any needless industrial product.I almost chose tractors but greenhouses have made the ultimate lightning rod for such a discussion because the holier than thou permi scene has an unspoken agreement about critiquing certain obviously ecologicaly unsound practices.Clearly Im in the minority here on this website but in my area,Im rather popular and my ideas are considered cutting edge(enough that we are planning a primitve/permi course for hopfully this spring/summer on my well established forest garden site).When I introduced myself and my interest in true sustainability/closed loop systems at the Bullocks course,many came up to me interested and obviously dissalusioned with the piles of outside inputs everywhere there.They dont have 10% of the perennial vegetables that Ive collected because they have irrigation and greenhouses so why bother! Of course with all those outside inputs,they have an amazing collection of marginaly hardy exotics wich outdoes most.