Raptelan wrote:
But I don't believe that killing a cow is inherently any more inhumane than killing a kale plant
Be vegetarian if you want to. Be vegan if you want to. But don't try to claim that you're more righteous when you are actually *less* ethical and humane and caring of animal life!
Alan Watts wrote an interesting article called 'Murder in the Kitchen' where he argued that since we cannot stick our feet into the soil and photosynthesize, we must kill and eat other organisms. Since we recognize animals as being more similar to us, we tend to value animal life more than plants and fungi (regardless of how genetically or evolutionarily complex those plants and fungi may be).
christhamrin wrote:
And I don't try to claim I am more righteous than someone who eats meat and, rightly, they usually offer me the same courtesy.
Raptelan wrote:
A vegan friend of mine recently called me responsible for rape and murder because I used butter in a recipe.
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Sandra Barnum wrote:
Quinoa and Millet are not technically grains, but probably use the same amount of land/water to produce as other grains.
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paul wheaton wrote:
I would like to remind folks to not bash the positions of others. Make your position clear and have it stand on its own without having to degrade other positions.
Raptelan, I would like to ask you to edit your post a bit. Rather than referring to other positions as "unreasonable" perhaps you can clearly state your own position.
Sandra Barnum wrote:
This is my first post aside from the singles section. I just wanted to say that there is a large percentage of raw vegans who don't eat grains, soy or corn. Many don't eat grains because several grains are stored for longer than 90 days. This can cause deadly mycotoxins to grow all over them.
The only thing I ask is that people don't try to claim that they're more righteous when than another for their choice - especially as it seems that those views may actually be *less* ethical and humane and caring of animal life in the grand scheme of things! "Right" and "wrong" are something we can only try to figure out for ourselves, and the most important aspect of doing that is to be as aware of every detail possible that our life impacts.
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christhamrin wrote:
i think this was covered earlier in the thread, but explain to me how eating no animal products is less ethical and humane than eating them. i guess the problem is what diets you are comparing.
so imagine there are three permaculture buttons in front of you. if your press one makes you a a omnivore, another a vegetarian and one a vegan. in every case all the food is grown yourself with perfectly aligned with permaculture principles (this is a thought experiment so lets have you grow all your own food for simplicitys sake and lets also assume for a moment you can be vegan and be aligned perfectly with permaculture principles).
now which one of you is the most ethical and humane in regards to animal life?
In most cases, animals also use more nutrients than they yield.
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velacreations wrote:
another quick point:
Native plants are ALWAYS the most sustainable and efficient crop for the land. For many areas, native plants include grasses, and the best use for grasses in terms of food production is the production of meat.
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Joel Hollingsworth wrote:
I agree with the critic to some small extent, though: her speech took a worst-case figure on loss of topsoil and used that to suggest that all of agriculture will fail. She acknowledged that some methods are productive and build soil, but I guess the apocalypse myth sells books.
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travis laduke wrote:
Theres a thread somewhere about this Island; It was barren, people dropped off a bunch of plants, 200 years later it's lush.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11137903
Planting it purely with non-natives. And that acre would provide more food than the acre next door that you planted with only natives
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velacreations wrote:
another quick point:
Native plants are ALWAYS the most sustainable and efficient crop for the land. For many areas, native plants include grasses, and the best use for grasses in terms of food production is the production of meat.
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kiva! hyvä! iloinen! pikkumaatila
get stung! beehives
be hospitable! host-a-hive
be antisocial! facespace
Casey Allen Shobe ("Raptelan") wrote:
Do you have some URL's for further reading about these mycotoxins? I haven't heard of them before.
"the qualities of these bacteria, like the heat of the sun, electricity, or the qualities of metals, are part of the storehouse of knowledge of all men. They are manifestations of the laws of nature, free to all men and reserved exclusively to none." SCOTUS, Funk Bros. Seed Co. v. Kale Inoculant Co.
Brenda Groth wrote:
after watching the news today I'm thinking maybe people start need to hunt and eat racoons after the 5 nearly killed a woman in Fla.
I'm mixed in my views about vegetarian and meat eaters..right now i believe that a lot of the problems with wildlife is that people aren't eating the wildlife !!
my grandfather was a trapper, there wasn't any meat that wasn't used except for skunk. We ate any and every type of meat and used the hides.
I believe that if there was more hunting of wildlife for food rather than for trophies that we would all be better off.
When animals are not hunted for food, you start getting animals attacking residents looking for food.
there are just too many wild animals in urban areas..sure the urbanites are encroaching and that is another post..but when we allow wild animals to get too prolific then we have serious problems too.
I eat very little meat, but i do eat meat..I eat more vegetables and grains..and grow a lot of my own vegetables..but have not grown grains although I have been debating it.
i'm sure the animals i eat have eaten grains..but most of the wild animals around here eat whatever grows wild.
if you would go back to the origiinal peoples of the world..whether you are religious or not, they ate meat and fish as well as produce from their animals such as cheese and yogurt.
i think people have to be more careful of how they use the resources of this world..yes..but to dismiss eating meat as wise..well then we will be overrun with animals like these racooons, and well, people will die from attacks just like the people ahve been on the news getting attacked..woman mauled by bear, woman had 4bear in her house yesteray, racoons attacking womean and then the cougars, moose attacking woman, etc..
what if it had been children rather than adults..they would have died..
think people..God put animals out there for food....wisdom is more important than nonsensical arguments..yes maybe our human population is out of control too..but the stunamis, flue and earthquakes will take care of overpoulation ..too..there is a balance in nature that needs to be paid attention to
People forget we are part of the balancing process too, and we need to properly manage wildlife, while receiving the benefits as well.
ignores all that is being done to increase populations intentionally
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just want to point out that it isn't surprising that some folks are misunderstanding the position you're presenting. you've clarified it since the post I quote here, but that is what you started with.
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