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the first wofati - allerton abbey- version 0.7  RSS feed

 
Peter Ellis
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Now I am really confused about the whole "ATI" part.
 
Adrien Lapointe
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If I understand Paul's article properly (http://www.richsoil.com/wofati.jsp), the thermal inertia part is the dirt that they are putting on right now.

Here is what Paul says in the article:

John Hait's book goes into a lot of mathematical detail on this and he concludes that if you have 20 feet of dry dirt, you can carry the heat of summer all through the cold of winter. Thermal inertia!

Well, I don't want to have a house that is 20 feet deep, and Hait doesn't suggest that. Instead, wrap this much dry dirt around more than half of the house. He has done this more than once and the result is a home that requires no heat.



So you have a layer of structure (R 2.5 to R 5), polyethylene on the structure, about 8 inches of dry dirt (R 2.64), about four inches of wood duff (R 5.0), another layer of polyethylene and then 20 inches of wet dirt (R 1). This brings our roof R-value to about R 11 or better - pretty good! Plus, a healthy dose of thermal inertia!

 
Peter Ellis
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Adrien, I thought I had understood what Paul was talking about when he said "ATI". He made it seem pretty clear that it was his way of saying PAHS or AGS.

Those terms refer to systems where you actually run tubes under the ground in an area protected against the flow of water, transferring heat from the air into the ground during warm periods and pulling it back out when the air is cooler than the ground. It's much more than just an earth bermed structure.

So, I've been wondering when they were going to do that part, as it is something that logically happens at the time you start work on a foundation, not after you have posts in the ground.

And the answer is, it is not being done.

Net - this is a small earth bermed log cabin with a passive solar design. I thought, from what Paul has been saying about the concept, that he was combining Oehler's work with the PAHS concepts, to produce something that has not been done yet (as far as I know). I would have very much liked to see that.

 
Tyler Flaumitsch
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First of all, love the progress on the wofati. Awesomeness all around.


I know that since I was there you needed to change the location of the first wofati. It is in regards to location, siting, and potential outcomes that I am thinking.

I know that a south facing slope in the area there that fit what you wanted was going to be a challenge. That being said, I was under the impression that you were going to point the gable end of the structure south to be able to replicate the terraced idea out the larger front and to see what the solar gain would be. A couple of questions for Paul, Tim, Jesse or who ever...

1. From looking at the pictures (which are awesome as well by the way) it is hard for me to tell from the shadows which direction the gable end is oriented to. It looked to me like it was off orientation. If that is so...

2. How do you plan on measuring performance? Actually, even if it is is on orientation what were you planning on doing?
 
Kevin MacBearach
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Great stuff!

If you guys aren't already, you should be filming this as it progresses. It would be a great documentary.
 
Len Ovens
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Peter Ellis wrote:Adrien, I thought I had understood what Paul was talking about when he said "ATI". He made it seem pretty clear that it was his way of saying PAHS or AGS.

Those terms refer to systems where you actually run tubes under the ground in an area protected against the flow of water, transferring heat from the air into the ground during warm periods and pulling it back out when the air is cooler than the ground. It's much more than just an earth bermed structure.


My understanding is that the pipes in the ground are not really a part of the heating so much to prevent heat loss while providing good fresh air. These pipes do not have to go under the house, but should have been put in before covering with dirt. This should not affect the ability to store/release heat properly, but may affect air quality... or may mean the fresh air feels a bit "fresh". It will be interesting to see. I expect the air quality will not be any worse than the average new home (aside from the modern material off gassing), but it could be better. In my opinion, modern standards for fresh air refresh are much less than they should be.... I would rather wear a sweater.

Anyway, air is a poor heat transfer medium... and where would it get hot enough to be useful? The PAHS designs I have seen have a south facing windowed off part that allows the sun's radiation to directly heat the ground in a portion of the house that is allowed to get overly warm in the summer to help bring the earth mass temperature average within the comfort zone. Using air flow to do that would require very warm air and probably something to move that air... not passive.

 
paul wheaton
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Peter Ellis wrote:Net - this is a small earth bermed log cabin with a passive solar design.


Peter,

This is false. I would like to ask that you please do not present false information as fact.

When you are confused about what is in my head or when pictures of the truth confuse you, I would like to ask that you present your confusion as questions to gain clarity rather than presenting false information as fact.

 
paul wheaton
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Tyler Flaumitsch wrote:I was under the impression that you were going to point the gable end of the structure south to be able to replicate the terraced idea out the larger front and to see what the solar gain would be.


Wofati is aligned with the hill.

Passive solar structures are aligned with the sun.

This will be an attempt to demonstrate the power of annualized thermal inertia. So we are specifically NOT aligning this with the sun. I suppose that some folks will select building spots so they can have both. But for the first one, we had the discussion and I decided that I needed to find out the power of ATI without any additional help from the sun.

How do you plan on measuring performance?


I think we need to build some experience before we can measure performance.

For this first year: we are moving the dirt/soil during very cold temperatures. So the whole structure will start cold. I'm not sure how valuable the information will be from the first year.


 
Vicky Barton
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~ That is so cool! Great photos. I can't help but think of how many man-hours it took to peel all those logs. You guys did an awesome job of fitting them. How scary now to put all that dirt on top, but what great timing. Winter is just about on us in the Pacific Northwest. Congrats to you, Paul Wheaton, on having such a dependable community of souls to make this all happen. Happy wofati'ing!
 
Rufus Laggren
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> cold dirt...

Ah, hadn't pegged that. Obvious once you set it out there.

FWIW I took "earth bermed log cabin..." as a point brought forward to be clarified. Which seems to have been done. <g>


Cheers

Rufus
 
evan l pierce
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paul wheaton wrote:Wofati is aligned with the hill.

Passive solar structures are aligned with the sun.

This will be an attempt to demonstrate the power of annualized thermal inertia. So we are specifically NOT aligning this with the sun. I suppose that some folks will select building spots so they can have both. But for the first one, we had the discussion and I decided that I needed to find out the power of ATI without any additional help from the sun.

Oh, I see. So, the gable end is not facing south? What direction is it facing, then?
 
paul wheaton
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Erik Little
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Are you going to be done before it snows?
 
Emily Aaston
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E Little wrote:Are you going to be done before it snows?


almost. All of first layer tarps are up now and a whole lot of dirt. There will be a temporary umbrella layer added, to be removed when the snow melts so the layers can be thoroughly dried before next winter. Windows and walls are going in quickly!
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photo at dusk this evening
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Adrien Lapointe
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This is cool! Thanks for the pics!
 
Greg Mann
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This crew has really been busting their butt to get this completed. What an incredible effort in such a short time period. I'm quite impressed at the wofati you're putting together. The idea of covering the dirt for this first winter is just over the top with foresight!!! We all wish it were on our land ;o) so we could live in it.
Thanks for the great pictures!
 
Patrick Mann
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I'm a little surprised at how small the interior space seems to be, given the massive outer shell. What are the net dimensions of the habitable space?
 
R Scott
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There will be a temporary umbrella layer added, to be removed when the snow melts so the layers can be thoroughly dried before next winter.


That was a brilliant idea. Just don't forget to cover it when it rains next summer!

This year it will be cold since you have had zero thermal storage. Next year should be better, but most underground or thermal mass homeowners I have talked to say it takes 4 years for the temp to really stabilize--so don't lose faith.
 
evan l pierce
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Patrick Mann wrote:I'm a little surprised at how small the interior space seems to be, given the massive outer shell. What are the net dimensions of the habitable space?
The folks on the ground will correct me if I'm wrong, but based on my observation of the sketchup and going on the assumption that the RL version is somewhat similar, the posts are on a 10 ft. grid, meaning that the interior space is about 400 square feet, not counting the substantial overhangs.
 
Jocelyn Campbell
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Yup, 400 sf interior.
 
Tyler Flaumitsch
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What will the large wall be? Cob infill? Modified stick build? Cobwoob? 1.21 gigawatt forcefield?
 
Len Ovens
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Tyler Flaumitsch wrote:What will the large wall be? Cob infill? Modified stick build? Cobwoob? 1.21 gigawatt forcefield?


Don't know if it is permanent, but looks like fiberglass or rockwool just now. Pretty late in the season to do cob. I think the priority just now is to get it livable quick. Still, it looks really nice. Good size for a family, I think. Maybe smaller than most are used to, but I have seen a family of 5 (children being adult size) happy in a smaller space. The layout gives a sense of privacy that a square room would lack. Normally, the layout would be harder to heat (Than a cube), but in this case with the earth berm being the major heat source, it should work well. The shape of the earth berm will have more effect than the shape of the interior.

My understanding is that this is the first of a number and that different ideas will be tried in each. I look forward to seeing what those changes will be and how different things work out. I think the core design idea is good.
 
Len Ovens
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I should have added:
Hey there are more pictures in this thread too:
other pictures

I tried to pick the message with newer pics than here. Like there are people living in there now.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
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I have been following along during all this hard work and admiring the effort and speed at which this all took place. I do have some questions, from a architectural and structural perspective for the builders/designers of the project.

What is the expected viable lifespan anticipated for the structure before major structural intervention is required?

What has been ( or will be) done to protect the below grade contact portion of the wood from fungal and insect wood consuming organisms?

Did anybody record "man hours" total to achieve the project, and the number of hours of "special equipment" (i.e. sawmills, track hoes, etc) it took to facilitate the project?

Regards,

jay
 
paul wheaton
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Things that I want to do better next time:

569) We spent over a thousand dollars attaching the last layer of wood. I passionately want to get the cost of materials for the shell to fall under $200. So this needs to be dramatically reduced or eliminated. Starting by looking at one wall: there are two poles holding up about 30 sticks. Each stick has two, rather expensive, screws holding it in place. I want to replace that with zero screws. Let the pressure of the dirt hold it in place. I do have a concern that in this case there could be bowing of the sticks - so I propose adding a pole in the middle to prevent that.

570) We could see between some of the sticks to see the billboard material on the other side. I think we should have placed smaller sticks between the bigger sticks to prevent this. Kinda like this image from the wofati article:



571) I want the wings to be about half the size they are now. Steeper. In this design they flare out a bit. In the next design I think they should not flare out at all.

572) Cut green wood in mid-spring and peel two narrow strips off then keep poles off of the ground. The rest of the bark should fall off.

573) Put dirt on when it is hot and dry

Any other ideas?

 
Miles Flansburg
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paul, I wonder if you can modify the roof to use the design of native hogans?

http://www.dennisrhollowayarchitect.com/ColoradoSolarHogan.html
 
paul wheaton
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Miles Flansburg wrote:paul, I wonder if you can modify the roof to use the design of native hogans?

http://www.dennisrhollowayarchitect.com/ColoradoSolarHogan.html


What would I gain?
 
R Scott
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What are those expensive screws doing? Just holding the logs against the poles until backfilled? If so, you should be able to lash them in place--old school vines, baling twine, or wire them like rebar.
 
Miles Flansburg
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On hogans I do not think they use screws etc., just stacking the logs. Also a dome may be stronger?
 
leila hamaya
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wowie =)
epic coolness !

i like the big over hang, and wide flared "wings", looks like the beginning of a nice porch/ or transitional inside/outside space. just my two cents, perhaps its a lot of extra material to make it such....

keep up the awesome work =)
 
Rufus Laggren
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> hold sticks against pole until backfill...

Idea:

Put a 3rd (weaker, not set deep) working pole (just to aid construction) _outside_ the sticks and in the middle between the structural poles; place the working pole such that the fattest stick can be laid against the two structural poles and just kiss the working pole on the outside edge of the stick. "Fill" the wall by laying sticks against the two structural poles as usual but "inside" the working pole which holds the stack of sticks against the two structural poles to form the wall. This might also accommodate the numerous small infill sticks shown in Paul's drawing if they're long enough. Since the third post (in this case) is a construction aid, it doesn't need to last long; it can be installed quicker by embedding it only slightly and/or diagonally bracing it's top toward the new wall just strongly enough to contain the stack of sticks/infill for the wall until backfill is placed.

Pros- This might be simple and strong enough to be fast w/out sacrificing wall integrity.

Cons- There might be risk of damaging the inner membrane where it is laid over the working pole. Perhaps this could be helped by using a specially smooth working pole, eg. 1" EMT, which gets withdrawn during backfill and reused (thus justifying the time/expense of the extra smooth pole); or protecting the membrane with some kind of "chafing gear" like strips of old carpet between the working pole the and membrane which would also allow the working pole to remain in place permanently and avoid the need and effort to withdraw it during backfill.

edit: I think the working pole has to remain in place - I can't think of a way to withdraw it because the membrane needs to be in place before backfill.

I doubt that the screws increase the spanning strength of the sticks to any large degree; if the stick wall is going to bow in it will do it screws or no. The mechanical advantage of applying force perpendicular to a (semi) flexible span between two end points connected to the span creates such a huge tension to draw the end points together that if the stick wants to deflect, it probably will. Either it will bend the fasteners, elongate the fastener holes or pull the end points closer or all three. Putting a third structural pole in the center of the original span will halve the span and of course that will greatly reduce any deflection of the stick.


Rufus
 
paul wheaton
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I think the third pole on the inside is providing structural integrity. We don't want the stick to bow into the room.

But I do get what you are saying. With something on the outside we can slap a lot more sticks into place much faster - as long as we are able to pull that out later. Maybe the thing to do is have something that is only two feet tall or so. We can place a lot of sticks and then as we backfill, we lift this "form".

 
R Scott
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I don't think it needs to be a pole, a 1x or sawmill slab would be enough to hold them there and shouldn't endanger the barrier.
 
Bill Kearns
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Although it's still a purchased item, tie-wire (such as used to tie rebar for concrete) would secure your horizontal poles to the posts and ought to be way cheaper than screws. Starting at the bottom, each successive course of poles would be supported from below and the tie-wire would merely have to hold the poles to the posts. Also should take about the same time to install as screws once you got the hang of it. Be sure to tuck the twisted ends away from the plastic sheeting.
= )

obtw, excellent work on this first wofati! I've been on the edge of my seat hoping your team would get done before the real cold hits.
 
Len Ovens
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Ok, So it has been in use for a bit now. How it goes?

I recall someone said the earth berm was rather cool and that was expected to make the performance not so good. How has it been? I would think that even cool the earth was 50F or so... did any one measure? I would think it is easier to heat from 50F to comfortable than from 30F to comfortable The logs will still provide some insulating too.

So how is the wood use? What life style changes have been made? Have those changes seemed good or not? What temperature is being maintained inside? Is it warm or cool subjectively? Does one's back feel cold when the back faces the window? when one's back faces the logs?
 
Jim Argeropoulos
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paul wheaton wrote:
569) We spent over a thousand dollars attaching the last layer of wood. I passionately want to get the cost of materials for the shell to fall under $200. So this needs to be dramatically reduced or eliminated. Starting by looking at one wall: there are two poles holding up about 30 sticks. Each stick has two, rather expensive, screws holding it in place. I want to replace that with zero screws. Let the pressure of the dirt hold it in place. I do have a concern that in this case there could be bowing of the sticks - so I propose adding a pole in the middle to prevent that.

I know the round wood spans farther and looks good, but maybe this is good reason to go back to milled lumber. Then you can use nails or drywall screws.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
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Hi Paul,

Sorry for not getting back to this post before now. I will use your list of "that I want to do better next time:"

569) Attachment methods:

To answer your question towards Miles about hogans, "What would I gain?" Geometric strength in design with traditional joinery methods and an alteration in material dimensions. On the note of traditional joinery, that would be a good way to avoid those expensive fasteners. For your cladding logs, they could be pegged on, lashed on, or even sewn on (of a fashion), but of these lashing would be the fastest, with pegging a close second. Your idea of having the mass of the earth hold things in place is possible, but should there even be a small seismic event this could lead to catastrophic fails without the monolithic attachments of some type, either traditional or modern. I definitely agree you can lessen the financial out lay in fasteners.

570) Blocking view of wrapping material:

From grass reeds, to a good cob layer (maybe augmented with lime) or even clay chip or clay straw, (which would add an insulative layer) would all be good alternatives. There are others but these are the first that came to mind, that also seemed like the best. Others include, cardboard, new paper, paper, recycled carpet (nice 100mm to 200mm thick layer of it), etc.


571) Wings:

Not flaring the wings sounds like a good idea, and would make your joinery easier to facilitate.


572) Bark:

Hmm, well that could work, and yes the bark could (or might fall off depending on species of conifer) but you could also get a really healthy infestation of stag horned beetles (or related Cleopatra ssp) as well and that would not be recommended considering the load these wood members take, including the cladding logs.

573) Earth layer:

I agree the dryer the better.

Any other ideas?

Yes, a big one for me is not burying your post in the ground, but creating a sill or knee wall assembly that the frame work would be attached to or part of. I can think of several methods all strong enough to take the lateral shear loads and moment connective loads from the back fill. Perhaps even a "boxing" method that would include a wood floor system that could facilitate easy access to plumbing and wiring should you choose to have it. My main reason for getting the wood isolated from direct contact with earth is potential for infestation of termites into the frame assembly, as well as extending the life span of your architecture.

Since you have the mill, perhaps flattened or planked wood and some timber framing? I had a really big thing for "mine timber work" as a kid and really study obsessively the different methods of doing timber work in mines for shoring and and strengthening wall systems. You get that wood isolated from the earth, upgrade the layering system to really have some redundancy and I think you could build something that would easily last multiple generations. I also think there is a book in this concept and modeling of yours...would love to write it someday.

Warm Regards,

j
 
Bill Kearns
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Perhaps closer to the entryway you envision?
 
paul wheaton
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Bill Kearns wrote:

Perhaps closer to the entryway you envision?


Bill, I thought your place was drier than that!

Please tell me more about this pic!
 
Jay C. White Cloud
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Yes Bill, please more info? It looks like either the "male" style of a Dine' Hogan, or one of the Athapaskan native structures, which would be the model I would follow and adapt to current living styles.
 
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