Permaculture value of bindweed?

I am going to lay down two layers of cardboard, put compost on top and plant buckwheat!

The only value I see in bindweed is as a focus of my eradication efforts.

Two great sources of large sheets of cardboard, bicycle shops and anyone who does solar, I get 4x6 sheets from my solar company all the time and you can cover a lot of ground fast!

Excuse me while I *run* to go buy buckwheat.   I don't care if it is a total fail.  I will feel validated for trying. It is everywhere this year.

Well, here goes nothing!

Today we heavily sewed buckwheat and then mowed the grass/bindweed down, allowing the lawn clippings to cover the seeds. We then sewed another layer of seeds because my husband was afraid the mower cut up the ones we already sewed (despite mowing on the highest setting). Then, we sprinkled duck bedding over it. The duck bedding certainly could have been thicker, but we just didn't have that much and the area is pretty big.

I rather wish we did this during one of our cool, rainy stretches. But, it looks like it will be hot (upper 70s, lower 80's) for the foreseeable future. So, we'll be watering. Sigh. Hopefully the hose reaches down there...

[Insert Venting]

I would have waited, but my husband was threatening to poison the earth to prevent the spread of bindweed to other areas of our property (bleach, roundup, battery acid were all mentioned). This was despite me telling him that killing everything thing growing in the area would just make it more hospitable to the bindweed in another month, and that we really don't want to poison the ground that our ducks eat and that is technically part of protected wetlands. I also tried to tell him that weeds are part of nature and you really can't/shouldn't remove all of them. We've got plenty of weeds that we need to manage (invasive blackberry, buttercup, grass seeds, fireweed). Bindweed really isn't that much worse (especially since ours is the non-taproot kind). But, he's on a kill-all-the-weeds kick ("Why aren't you pulling out all that self-heal in the herb spiral?!" "Why is the birdfood trefoil in the garden bed--it will take over!" "AH! There's catsear in the blueberry mound--pull it out so more dandelions can grow!"). Doesn't matter that I'm doing weed-triage in my pregnant state, and that many of the weeds help the mini-ecosystem of our beds. Anyway, we have weeds and we can't/shouldn't nuke them all, even the horrid bindweed--maybe one day my husband will understand this, too.

[/venting]

But, thanks to this thread, I was able to persuade my husband to dump buckwheat seeds all over the area, instead dumping poison. Even if it doesn't work, at least it bought me more time to persuade him not to apply poison to our property...

I've been getting Bindweed Mites from my county weed & pest.  They are starting to do a good job.  They go into the roots and stunt it to a couple of inches tall.

Lisa !!!  where abouts do you live ???   Can you be sure to follow up on this?   And, how did you apply it/them?   Did you clear the ground first, etc?   Thanks a bunch :)

Nancy,  I'm in SW Colorado.  You can actually order them through the state here, but you may want to check with your county first.  To place them, you lift a patch of bindweed and put them under it, then press on it.  Then don't disturb that area for that season.  Eventually I hope to be able to let the county here harvest them from me.  They cut out a patch of bindweed and bag them in paper.

Thanks a bunch... I'll check with our opposite-weather region county here. Good luck!!   : )

Nicole!  as I don't see a follow up here - is it somewhere else?  How did it go?  Did your husband 'win' and the bindweed rebound with vigor! lol :)

Hi all,
This is a great thread.  I probably posted about my experience with the bind weed mite few years ago,but I will risk repeating myself.  I too live in alkaline soil arid western colorado.  The mites are not expected to completely kill bind weed,but to weaken it significantly.  I had TRUE free range cage free chickens, for meat and egg so lots of reasons to not use poisons, in addition to my ideological preferences.  The mites did weaken the bindweed.

Then I began to water the field -going for soil carbon building, the bind weed (huge water storage root type, I did not know there was any other kind) the bind weed went crazy.  The goats loved it, and kept it eaten down, and I planted many other soil building plants.  In a year or two, the bind weed, while present no longer dominated the plant community.

I think it's worth mentioning here though every one probably already knows it, that healthy soil is a living community, that when the soil has been neglected abused or managed in ways that don't support that subsurface community, then the few plants (usually considered weeds) that can tolerate those conditions thrive, and nothing else does.  When the soil is managed above all else to promote the support and establishment of the soil food web, the "weeds" are no longer the only plants that can live and thrive in the prevailing conditions.  Succession  is the gradual process by which conditions change, and as the conditions change, so do the predominant species.  

Things like fertilizers, pesticide, insecticides  and herbicides all suppress the soil food web.  I am sure there is a thread or whole forum(!) on how to support and  develop the soil food web.

Nicole!  In honor of your unborn child, I hope this helps you put an end to the partner's love of the quick fix of poisons and agrichemicals.   Have a wonderful pregnancy and birth!

Bindweed indicates very low calcium, phosphate, low humus, poor residue decay, good drainage, and very high potash and magnesium.

Keep in mind that “low” usually means unavailable through ph or other conditions such as humid acid and lack of sufficient soil microbes. “High” usually means either in proportion to other elements, or that the excess needs to be bound up by biological processes.

Myron Platte wrote:Bindweed indicates very low calcium, phosphate, low humus, poor residue decay, good drainage, and very high potash and magnesium. .

This is going to take me awhile to reconcile with my experiences.  I have lived for most of my life in places where the soil and water coming from it are very calcium rich, and the bindweed has always been very happy in all these places

Thekla McDaniels wrote:

Myron Platte wrote:Bindweed indicates very low calcium, phosphate, low humus, poor residue decay, good drainage, and very high potash and magnesium. .

This is going to take me awhile to reconcile with my experiences.  I have lived for most of my life in places where the soil and water coming from it are very calcium rich, and the bindweed has always been very happy in all these places

High according to what? Again, the calcium will not be available if the ph is too far out. Calcium being washed out of the soil in water seems to indicate to me that it wouldn’t be very bioavailable.

Also, “indicates” in this case means “the more of these are true, the more this plant will be favored”. So, calcium content and bioavailability might be very good, but every other factor inclined towards bindweed, and it could possibly be “very happy”

Thanks for your attempt at clarification,Myron. I am still trying to understand what you've said.  I don'tknow "high according to what" I didn't say anything about high.  Acidic conditions (humic acid?) would be low pH.  My history is with alkaline soils, and often adobe soils (NO drainage)  and the bind weed has thrived.  

So I am still trying to understand what you are saying, andI imagine it will take me awhile.

interesting to see what the results are.  Personally having spent my life fighting it I consider it to have no redeeming value.

One comment on this for those suggesting tillers.  DON'T  pieces of stem as small as half inch long can become new plants.  You can make thousands of new plants in a matter of just a few minutes.

in large areas there are only 2 permies acceptable answers that I know for controlling it.  

1.  Built a pig pen around the patch and let them kill it.  Usually takes at least 2 summers to work.  Ideally you keep watering regularly to encourage regrowth while keeping the ground soft enough for the pigs to root the plants out.  The ground left behind will be in terrible condition.

2.  Cover the ground with something light and plant impermeable.  Now the common directions say to pull the stuff up occasionally and pull all the plants growing under it.  This is one I question.  Wouldn't it be better to support as much white plants as you can so it is costing those root energy?  After all the goal is to starve the plant to death isn't it.  The key being it can't be getting sun anywhere.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Thanks for your attempt at clarification,Myron. I am still trying to understand what you've said.  I don'tknow "high according to what" I didn't say anything about high.  Acidic conditions (humic acid?) would be low pH.  My history is with alkaline soils, and often adobe soils (NO drainage)  and the bind weed has thrived.  

So I am still trying to understand what you are saying, andI imagine it will take me awhile.

I’m sorry, not high, rich. There is a huge difference between presence and availability, in terms of minerals. Calcium presence often correlates with alkalinity, but the further the soil ph is from 6.4 in either direction, (and depending on a few other factors) the less available more elements are. That includes calcium. Some plants have the ability to reach through a trapdoor, so to speak, and absorb specific nutrients that are unavailable. This gives them a huge advantage over plants that do not have this ability in places where those nutrients are unavailable. When parts of the plant rot on top of or in the ground, the calcium is returned, in a bioavailable form. This leads to the plant slowly making itself obsolete in one or another area.

Myron Platte wrote:
I’m sorry, not high, rich. There is a huge difference between presence and availability, in terms of minerals. Calcium presence often correlates with alkalinity, but the further the soil ph is from 6.4 in either direction, (and depending on a few other factors) the less available more elements are. That includes calcium. Some plants have the ability to reach through a trapdoor, so to speak, and absorb specific nutrients that are unavailable. This gives them a huge advantage over plants that do not have this ability in places where those nutrients are unavailable. When parts of the plant rot on top of or in the ground, the calcium is returned, in a bioavailable form. This leads to the plant slowly making itself obsolete in one or another area.

Hmmm, are you saying that bindweed is a calcium accumulator?  And that it transforms mineral calcium into bioavailable calcium?   In this country, everything is geared to the acid soils of the east. In the west we have alkaline soils, pH 8 and above.  Here,most conventional agriculture consultants advise that we should put lime on our soils EVERY year to get the pH to the "desireable" range.  

I have come across ONE resource that says why bother with that?  Take the soil as it is,and work with it.  I like that a lot better.

Thekla, that is exactly what I’m saying. Most weeds that indicate deficiencies of minerals are accumulators for those minerals. I have never had to deal with a bindweed patch, but if I did, I would dig a mulch pit in the center, cut all the bindweed, and throw it into the pit. Then I would put pee and food scraps in for nitrogen, and throw all my eggshells in for calcium. I’d probably sow buckwheat in the patch too, as it also accumulates calcium and phosphate. If I could, I would put the chickens in the patch for a few day to dose it with fertility. The buckwheat and the bindweed regrowth would get cut and thrown into the pit at the end of the season. Once you get one area of the patch rehabilitated enough that other plants can start growing, the rest will be easier.

The purpose of the mulch pit is twofold: to concentrate the available nutrient-rich material, and to create a higher-humus condition in one place.

I'm surprised by claims that bindweed doesn't spread sideways. I have it on my allotment, and it has spread sideways at approx 2 metres/year.

Tim Boardman wrote:I'm surprised by claims that bindweed doesn't spread sideways. I have it on my allotment, and it has spread sideways at approx 2 metres/year.

I agree!  It spreads sideways at my place too.

Jessica Padgham wrote:When I was reading up on growing buckwheat I came across a claim that it inhibited bindweed.  I haven't tested this thoroughly but the area that I planted with buckwheat does seem to have less of the bindweed than the surrounding area.  Another tip I read here on Permies, and I think it was from Matu Collins, was instead of pulling the plant to curl it up and cover it.  I think she read somewhere that the pulling actually stimulates it to grow even more.  Again, I haven't been thorough but I am gaining ground in my strawberry bed with this method.  

I will be testing this starting tomorrow. Spent today clearing about 100 sq feet. I'll cover some with thick buckwheat seeding and leave some to the lambsquarters that was left behind. Then I'll nelglect and see what happens.  

Melonie, it will be interesting to see what you come up with!

I don’t know where you are, or how far your spring has progressed.  

I think buckwheat germinates in cool soil, and when seeded thickly, it makes a very thick stand, very thick!  And because it germinates earlier than most “weeds”, and certainly before bindweed becomes really active, so I think this contributes to buckwheat’s ability to suppress other plants.

I am not saying your experiment won’t work, I just hope you won’t  be discouraged if you get inconclusive results

C. Letellier wrote:Cover the ground with something light and plant impermeable.

At my place, bindweed is dramatically reduced in areas that grew corn, squash, or sprawling tomatoes the previous year. I presume, because they shade out the bindweed.

One nice thing about bindweed from a permaculture perspective, is that it will grow on hugelculture mounds in the desert, where many other species fail to thrive.