Nicole Alderman wrote:Erika, that was beautiful and thought-provoking. Thank you. It was also something I dearly needed today, and I will likely read it over and over. Thank you again.
Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:
I believe we absolutely should have children, it is a sacred thing, and we must continue the species--however, I believe a huge reduction in numbers and huge increase in quality of life are in order. And I personally do not want to bring children into this world until there is a solid community ready to raise the children, and the community as a whole has full awareness of the responsibilities it is taking on and full choice in the matter.
Destiny Hagest wrote:
Jan White wrote:The chances of IUD perforation is 1 in 1000. The chance of developing a life-threatening blood clot during pregnancy is also 1 in 1000.
I was aware of the IUD statistic, but not the blood clot one - I actually would have thought it would be much higher!
The chances me be relatively low, but for me that is just too high with the IUD, and that's not even including other complications, like copper toxicity, and typical birth control side effects like weight gain, and of course, a very much increased risk of blood clots, strokes, and migraines.
Personally, I'm transitioning to the fertility awareness method, and will be coupling that with a cervical cap until my husband and I can come to a consensus on this issue. We both at this point still feel quite strongly about having at least one more child, and as I said earlier, given the 'alternative' lifestyle we've chosen, adoption just doesn't seem practical for us, but either way, growing our family again is something that won't be happening for a little while longer at least.
I agree with what someone said earlier though, it's a nice thought, being able to make a difference by not reproducing, but in the end, I feel like it has little effect, and that true population control or restraint is virtually impossible, and that ultimately nature is judge and jury on the subject. Maybe it's just my own wishful thinking, but I feel like raising children and creating influence with permaculture within that belief system (because I think we all know, it is about so much more than plants and livestock) is one of the best ways to create a more mindful society.
But again, that could just be my own wishful thinking, obviously I very much want to have more children.
Len Ovens wrote:
Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:
I believe we absolutely should have children, it is a sacred thing, and we must continue the species--however, I believe a huge reduction in numbers and huge increase in quality of life are in order. And I personally do not want to bring children into this world until there is a solid community ready to raise the children, and the community as a whole has full awareness of the responsibilities it is taking on and full choice in the matter.
Where does this "solid community" come from if everyone is waiting for that community before they have children? Creating a child automatically creates a community (of three at least) This small community can be very focused because the youngest members will thrive in the adventure of being led.
As a note:
I have three children I had the first in my 20s the second was adopted when I was 40 and the last was born in when I was 45. I was the best father to the first and second, I have had trouble keeping up with the last. There is no such thing as being ready to have children, one doesn't get more ready by waiting but less ready. Having each child is what makes one ready to have that child.
In fact this applies to almost anything that one does in life. One is never more ready than they are now to do just about anything. One learns more by doing than by schooling. (And no that is not a "put down" on schooling)
Community Building 2.0: ask me about drL, the rotational-mob-grazing format for human interactions.
Community Building 2.0: ask me about drL, the rotational-mob-grazing format for human interactions.
Work smarter, not harder.
R Ranson wrote:Oh man Destiny, that's rough.
If you had a religious reason for not vaccinating, you might be able to challenge it.
Are there any agencies or charities that help fund refugee children that need a new home? Would that be something you would consider?
“The most important decision we make is whether we believe we live in a friendly or hostile universe.”― Albert Einstein
Destiny Hagest wrote:On adoption -
I just wanted to come back and say that since starting this thread, simply because we felt it was the right time for our family, my husband and I began to look into adopting through the state of Montana. It's a long process that can take years, but if you foster to adopt, it's a little more efficient, and it's free, the state covers everything.
That being said, we got our paperwork in the mail last week, and on the first page under required documentation, it said they needed our child's vaccine certificate. We don't vaccinate.
When I called the office to see what I could do to get a waiver, they said the law that I had heard about had changed a few years ago, and now in order to become a licensed foster parent through the state of Montana, your children had to be immunized - no exceptions. And that was a deal-breaker for us.
We're looking into alternative options now, but it seems that expanding our family with our own genes is going to be the only viable option, I'm not optimistic any other agencies will prove to be any different, and we can't afford a private adoption (costs at least $20k).
So there you have it, the broken system at work - where a child is better off in a child labor mill foster home or living with drug addict, abusive parents, than with a family that only wants more kids to love, but doesn't vaccinate. Feeling pretty morose today.
Community Building 2.0: ask me about drL, the rotational-mob-grazing format for human interactions.
Destiny Hagest wrote:My desire to have another biological child really stems more from my disappointment over how my last birth went - I suppose I want a second chance to 'get it right' this time,
Xisca - pics! Dry subtropical Mediterranean - My project
However loud I tell it, this is never a truth, only my experience...
Xisca - pics! Dry subtropical Mediterranean - My project
However loud I tell it, this is never a truth, only my experience...
Michael Sohocki wrote:The obvious answer that everyone always points to is population control, except that there has never been a working model of population control anywhere in all our history. These plans go off the rails in one manner or another.
Xisca - pics! Dry subtropical Mediterranean - My project
However loud I tell it, this is never a truth, only my experience...
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein
Rene Nijstad wrote:
So for all women who want kids, to try to raise them to be part of a solution for the world, on which we personally have only limited effect, I think, we need to be encouraging. It's a difficult job and I applaud anyone wanting to try it. I am not going to judge a child wish negatively because there are 'already too many humans'. It's not the number of humans by itself that creates problems, it's how these humans behave.
-Nathanael
Spencer Miles wrote:
Wow. You know, only the places that are comfortable enough to be concerned with population growth make efforts to reduce it - and the places that are little better than violent hells have strong population growth.
Spencer Miles wrote:
Imagine where that ends. The vast bulk of humanity does not have a eurocentric consumerist perspective, and "inter-personal violence" (as opposed to other kinds?) is hardly a recent problem.
Spencer Miles wrote:Also, the squandering of resources is not "too few". More than half of the food made is never eaten, and between the Arctic and Antarctic circles, an average of 6Kw/ sq. meter is available when the sun is up. There are PLENTY of resources, just most go unused or wasted on meaningless things. Population and demand reduction are the ingredients for a Malthusian-Orwellian nightmare - and totally unnecessary.
Spencer Miles wrote:Celibacy as a deliberate choice is totally an option - but celibacy as a default from disillusionment and unending loneliness is resignation. A one-night stand is NOT the alternative.
...
Spencer Miles wrote:It is not good that a man should be alone.
You sound as if you are much younger than I.
We all may end up with the "default results" of our inability to solve the very real political problems that greed and other deceptions create on this planet.
I hope that reason and good choices provide the world with a much better ending.
Jd
George Bastion wrote:I think we have to be really careful when we talk about overpopulation, because wrapped up in the discussion is not just resources and ecology, but worldview and how you conceptualize problems.
Personally, I'm not a fan of the concept that the world is overpopulated, for a variety of reasons.
1. What we are faced with is an issue of distribution, not production. We produce enough food right now to feed everyone on the planet. Our social and economic systems do no distribute food on the basis of need, but profit. At least, last I read up on this, it was shown we could feed everyone.
2. The vast majority of land mass on earth is not being managed to optimize ecosystem health, produce food, and meet human needs. Imagine if the principles of permaculture were used on a worldwide scale rather than millions of acres of land being owned and not utilized to their full potential by various interest groups, massively wealthy private individuals or families, corporate ventures, and states. We have not even begun to approach the carrying capacity of the planet if this were to happen.
3. Speaking of overpopulation obscures the fact that a small number of people, controlling a small number of organizations, control most of the resources and land. Further, these same people and organizations are responsible for the vast majority of carbon emissions, pollution, and resource consumption. A starving family in India or the United States with 8 children is less responsible for the ecological crisis than the board of Exon. Look at the water crisis in California. Is it individuals using most of the water? No, it's industry. Individuals count for very little use. We have already mentioned that citizens of western countries consume far more resources. Equally important is making a class and institutional distinction. All people are not equally responsible for the ecological mess we are in, and the people who suffer the most from hysteria regarding overpopulation are the poor and exploited. In fact, most people could change their consumption, and if the industrial and economic system did not change, very little dent would be made.
4. Evidence shows that as life quality increases, education for women increases, and access to resources increases, birth rates naturally go down.
What do the issues of distribution, land being locked up by a small minority, powerful organizations having a disproportionate impact on ecology, and expanding access to education and resources all have in common? These are social and economic issues, with their root in the domination of some humans by others.
If we address the social and economic domination and exploitation of humans by one another and create a truly liberatory, ecological society, where resources are owned by all, used to heal the earth and provide for people, and care for the earth is paramount, overpopulation will be an afterthought. Population will peak and stabilize as people are provided with what they need, and a new paradigm of providing for the earth and humans will ensure it is sustainable.
This isn't to say there isn't a carrying capacity, or that we shouldn't be mindful of how we use resources and population dynamics. But overpopulation is not strictly speaking the issue, and the sooner we realize that, the sooner we can address the root causes.
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