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jmy wrote:
Land required for Vegan Self sufficiency (slight return) (fwd from Plants For A Future elist)

"Amongst his many findings were that a meat eater needed up to 10 acres to
provide their annual food needs (depending on the types of meat they ate) a
vegetarian up to 2 and a half acres (depending on the amount of dairy
produce they consumed) and a vegan one fifth of an acre. These findings were
average figures based on the population as a whole. They were also based on
average conventional (not organic) agricultural yields."

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/vegetarian-forum/1143195-land-required-vegan-self-sufficiency-slight-return-fwd-plants-future-elist.html



This comparison could still be apples and oranges.  Without knowing what kind of land we are talking about, we have no way of knowing if the ten acres average for raising the diet of a meat eater includes any land suitable for cultivation for that vegan diet.  In other words, the ten acres might NOT be capable of raising enough food for fifty vegans.  It may only be CAPABLE of raising livestock. 

In any case, while some people (very few) seem to be able to maintain their health on a vegan diet, most of us NEED some animal foods in our diet.  So it's a pointless argument, really.  How about if those who CAN stay healthy on a vegan diet, and WANT to, do so, and let the rest of us do the best we can with what we CAN eat?



Kathleen
 
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Most of my land is not suitable for raising crops of any kind.  Wild animals and certain wild plants seem to do the best.  If I were to try to have the simplest most sustainable diet here it would probably have to be mostly made up of wild animals - deer, squirrels, possums, raccoons, porcupines, rabbits, mice, snakes, lizards, insects, etc.  And a few wild plants which grow well here - cactus, sotol, amaranth, etc.  It would be a very different diet from what I'm used to.

 
                  
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Ludi Ludi wrote:
There wasn't one diet, there were a few.  Not all contained Hazelnuts.

A Woman's Prototype Diet:  Potatoes,sunflowers,onions,turnips,parsnips,garlic

A Man's Prototype Diet:  Filberts(hazelnuts),potatoes,collards,parsnips,garlic

1400 square foot Diet A: Wheat,garlic,sunflowers, potatoes, onions, parsley, turnips, collards, parsnips, filberts

1400 square foot Diet B: Sweet potatoes, soybeans, potatoes, sunflowers, peanuts, turnips, onions, wheat, parsley, garlic, leeks

Reference:  One Circle by David Duhon

Seems like one can base one's diet on hazelnuts if one wants to, just as one can base one's diet on corn if one wants to.





"Duhon examines and gives complete growing information for 14 crops with high potential for use in "minimal area" gardens. Six of these—potatoes, sunflowers, onions, turnips, parsnips and garlic—could conceivably provide a woman's complete, balanced diet "for one year from just a 550-square-foot garden! (Duhon's other "wonder crops" are collards, filberts, leeks, parsley, peanuts, soybeans, sweet potatoes and wheat.)

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening/1987-07-01/Outer-Space-Vegetables.aspx#ixzz17wkCbZ7r

There was no diet .  Only a theory


" potential" .........  "could conceivably provide a woman's complete, balanced diet "



I wonder how long it has been since someone has grown their calories ??  Must have been done sometime in the past ?
 
Tyler Ludens
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What is the purpose of this thread, jmy?  To poke at people trying to grow their own food?  To tell them they are doing it wrong?

What?

 
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I appreciate the research that has been done because it helps us understand which annuals to focus on for maximum production.People all over the world have managed their landscapes for food and harvested that food.If by "growing"your own food you mean cultivating annuals within the ubsurd private property model that is currently used than people havnt been doing it for very long.Even a hundred years ago people either thought nothing of bringing in animal manures or suplamented their diets with hunting and foraging.A permi landscape is hopfully looking to also grow medicines and fuel and fiber all within the same space.Of course yields of food might be lower per sqft but total yields of usable products might be higher.Annual production using highly bred plants focuses stricly on food.So it looks superior from that standpoint but people need more than food.Thanx for opening this thread.I find the attempt to grow all of ones food this way to be both honorable and ridiculous.
 
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Has anyone survived on these diets for any amount of time in real life? I am not sure I would survive on that diet, not only would it get boring, I don't think I could tolerate it.

The next question is: are people THRIVING on those diets?  If so, please post examples.  I imagine these are just thought exercises, and no one is actually eating just potatoes, sunflowers, onions, turnips, garlic and wheat.  How healthy is that for a diet?

A cow will eat cardboard, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily the best diet.

I can see that the majority of a diet could be grown within 1/10 of an acre, especially if you let the chickens and rabbits eat the pests and weeds.  It would take a lot of planning, and I would be growing in all zones of the forest garden to make that happen.

On a side note to this, is diet the only thing included in that 1/10 of an acre?  Cause with the rabbits, you could have clothing and tools produce in the same space.  How much land is required to provide clothes for a vegan?  Cordage? Baskets? Water containers?  It starts adding up to be self-sufficient based solely on plants.

Stack your functions....
 
                  
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velacreations wrote:
Has anyone survived on these diets for any amount of time in real life? I am not sure I would survive on that diet, not only would it get boring, I don't think I could tolerate it.

The next question is: are people THRIVING on those diets?  If so, please post examples.  I imagine these are just thought exercises, and no one is actually eating just potatoes, sunflowers, onions, turnips, garlic and wheat.  How healthy is that for a diet?

A cow will eat cardboard, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily the best diet.

I can see that the majority of a diet could be grown within 1/10 of an acre, especially if you let the chickens and rabbits eat the pests and weeds.  It would take a lot of planning, and I would be growing in all zones of the forest garden to make that happen.

On a side note to this, is diet the only thing included in that 1/10 of an acre?  Cause with the rabbits, you could have clothing and tools produce in the same space.  How much land is required to provide clothes for a vegan?  Cordage? Baskets? Water containers?  It starts adding up to be self-sufficient based solely on plants.

Stack your functions....



You must not be speaking of my diet or my thread.

I explained the diet throughout this thread.  Over 13 years in "real life". I found the diet to be extremely healthy , nutritious , and  varying (not boring) with the ever changing fresh vegetables of the season.

 
Abe Connally
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No, jmy, I wasn't talking about your diet, I was referring to this:
A Woman's Prototype Diet:  Potatoes,sunflowers,onions,turnips,parsnips,garlic

A Man's Prototype Diet:  Filberts(hazelnuts),potatoes,collards,parsnips,garlic

1400 square foot Diet A: Wheat,garlic,sunflowers, potatoes, onions, parsley, turnips, collards, parsnips, filberts

1400 square foot Diet B: Sweet potatoes, soybeans, potatoes, sunflowers, peanuts, turnips, onions, wheat, parsley, garlic, leeks

Reference:  One Circle by David Duhon
 
Tyler Ludens
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velacreations wrote:
Has anyone survived on these diets for any amount of time in real life? I am not sure I would survive on that diet, not only would it get boring, I don't think I could tolerate it.

The next question is: are people THRIVING on those diets?  If so, please post examples.  I imagine these are just thought exercises, and no one is actually eating just potatoes, sunflowers, onions, turnips, garlic and wheat.  How healthy is that for a diet?

A cow will eat cardboard, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily the best diet.

I can see that the majority of a diet could be grown within 1/10 of an acre, especially if you let the chickens and rabbits eat the pests and weeds.  It would take a lot of planning, and I would be growing in all zones of the forest garden to make that happen.

On a side note to this, is diet the only thing included in that 1/10 of an acre?  Cause with the rabbits, you could have clothing and tools produce in the same space.  How much land is required to provide clothes for a vegan?  Cordage? Baskets? Water containers?  It starts adding up to be self-sufficient based solely on plants.

Stack your functions....



As far as I know, these are only theoretical diets.  Personally I think they are too limited and they are not nutritionally complete.  Personally I would include small animals, which could be grown on the 1/10 of an acre, in my opinion.

The purpose of the book "One Circle" is to help people figure out how to grow a complete diet in the smallest amount of space.  The sample diets are meant as a jumping off point.

 
Abe Connally
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Yeah, I agree Ludi.  They might be interesting as thought exercises or starting points, but I would find them lacking if they were my diet.

Definitely, small animals could be grown in the same space and use waste nutrients.
 
                  
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velacreations wrote:
No, jmy, I wasn't talking about your diet, I was referring to this:
A Woman's Prototype Diet:  Potatoes,sunflowers,onions,turnips,parsnips,garlic

A Man's Prototype Diet:  Filberts(hazelnuts),potatoes,collards,parsnips,garlic

1400 square foot Diet A: Wheat,garlic,sunflowers, potatoes, onions, parsley, turnips, collards, parsnips, filberts

1400 square foot Diet B: Sweet potatoes, soybeans, potatoes, sunflowers, peanuts, turnips, onions, wheat, parsley, garlic, leeks

Reference:  One Circle by David Duhon



I agree ..  that is not a diet I would want to eat on a daily basis either.

I was eating meat when I started on this project , but wanted to see if I could do a complete diet garden.

Having olive oil certainly helped and soon I found there are many plant products that were satisfying and nutritious and I gradually lost my desire for meat.  I have killed and slaughtered wild and farm animals

I know soaked/germinated Corn along with dry beans,winter squash and fresh vegetables etc. may seem like a limiting diet but i/we found it to be the most energy efficient diet.

We experimented with potatoes , soybeans, sweet potatoes etc. also.
 
Tyler Ludens
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Do you ever nixtamalize your corn for extra nutrition, jmy? (Making hominy)

 
                  
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Ludi Ludi wrote:
Do you ever nixtamalize your corn for extra nutrition, jmy? (Making hominy)




Did not know what nixtamalize was at first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixtamalization

Glad you brought it up ...  it is part of where/why corn got a bad rap.

wikipedia  has no citations for verification  ...  how could it ?

Aztec/Mayan people soaked and germinated their corn but not why it is done today

we always had dry corn soaking  ..  soak for 24 hrs ..

then rinse  ...depending on temp./time of year ..  until desired germination

Another thing I forgot ,that is most important, is the daily consumption of fresh Chlorophyl in the diet.   

celery , parsley , kale , etc.

 
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jmy wrote:
I agree ..  that is not a diet I would want to eat on a daily basis either.

I was eating meat when I started on this project , but wanted to see if I could do a complete diet garden.

Having olive oil certainly helped and soon I found there are many plant products that were satisfying and nutritious and I gradually lost my desire for meat.  I have killed and slaughtered wild and farm animals

I know soaked/germinated Corn along with dry beans,winter squash and fresh vegetables etc. may seem like a limiting diet but i/we found it to be the most energy efficient diet.

We experimented with potatoes , soybeans, sweet potatoes etc. also.

How does this diet affect your body? Would you describe yourself as underweight? Overweight?
 
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JMY:  Attached (I hope) is the document I spoke of earlier.  If anyone recognizes it, please let me know so we can give credit to whomever did the work.

Ed
Filename: deans-cornell.edu_20101213_140103.pdf
File size: 73 Kbytes
 
                  
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Looks to be the prototype proposal from Duhon
 
pollinator
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All this makes me really interested in getting hold of Duhon's book. CAn't remember whether it was in this thread or another, but I have mentioned Carol Deppe's new book, The Resilient Gardener, somewhere on this forum. Her staples (western Oregon) are potatoes, squash, beans, corn and eggs.

Her book is an in-depth discussion of not only growing these crops, but storing and cooking with them.

Notice no wheat - she has celiac disease. The corn she talks about is grain corn, not sweet corn.

With a good salad garden, including lots of alliums, and some fruits and nuts, you could eat pretty good on this. I'm making some serious lists...
 
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Warren David wrote:
Who cares about studies? You can find a study to support virtually any argument or theory. The handy thing about these message boards is you can ask other members to tell of their experiences  and very often get much more down to earth answers.


I disagree. Some studies are more well done than others, and often times you will find a handful of poor studies on one side of an issue and a mountain of good ones on the other, and it just takes looking at the studies to find which side is flim flam. If you just ask people what they think you get a poll, on some issues this will be reliable, on others it will not. If you ask people how economies work for instance the average answer that you get is so full of fail that it makes your head spin.
 
Tyler Ludens
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jacque g wrote:
All this makes me really interested in getting hold of Duhon's book. CAn't remember whether it was in this thread or another, but I have mentioned Carol Deppe's new book, The Resilient Gardener, somewhere on this forum. Her staples (western Oregon) are potatoes, squash, beans, corn and eggs.

Her book is an in-depth discussion of not only growing these crops, but storing and cooking with them.

Notice no wheat - she has celiac disease. The corn she talks about is grain corn, not sweet corn.

With a good salad garden, including lots of alliums, and some fruits and nuts, you could eat pretty good on this. I'm making some serious lists...



I think devising a simple survival diet is possible (clearly jmy is doing it!).  Personally I would want to have more options of staples, in case of failure, but the idea of learning how to grow a few things reliably is a good idea.  So far I have not been successful in my climate!    I'm going to keep trying......
 
Warren David
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Emerson White wrote:
I disagree. Some studies are more well done than others, and often times you will find a handful of poor studies on one side of an issue and a mountain of good ones on the other, and it just takes looking at the studies to find which side is flim flam. If you just ask people what they think you get a poll, on some issues this will be reliable, on others it will not. If you ask people how economies work for instance the average answer that you get is so full of fail that it makes your head spin.

Well a study might be useful when talking about economies but that's a topic I never discuss so I don't really know.
With a lot of studies you need to know what was the motivation behind the study and who was paying for it.
If I ask a question on this message board about raising animals or growing food etc then I would be more interested in the personal experiences of members here rather than links to studies. They may even be "flim flam" but how would I know?. 
 
                  
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I am not selling a book , a program , a course, or anything else.
 
Abe Connally
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jmy, it's good to see you have some nut trees, lots of good vitamins and minerals there, especially the almonds.  Without that, I would be afraid that your crops would leave you deficient in some important areas.

kale is another good one, lots of vitamins, there.

What do you do for B12 or D?

Can you describe daily consumption amounts of different things?  It would be interesting to see not only what you are eating, but how much of each thing daily or weekly.
 
                  
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velacreations wrote:
would be afraid that your crops would leave you deficient in some important areas.


What do you do for B12 or D?

Can you describe daily consumption amounts of different things?  It would be interesting to see not only what you are eating, but how much of each thing daily or weekly.



Good question ....  what would be the symptoms ?

I thought Vit D came from sunlight

B12 can come from soil organisms  

 http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12issue.html
  http://alternativesante.superforum.fr/bibliotheque-virtuelle-theories-net-et-bouquins-f2/david-wolfe-on-b12-t1179.htm

Never felt under nourished

Daily .....

Germinated dry Corn
Dry beans - cooked
Olive Oil
Apple cider vinegar
Raw and cooked fresh vegetables (lots of fresh Chlorophyll)

In addition (fresh and dried)...  Almonds , Figs , Apricots,Apples,Grapes, Dried Olives

Where do you think I may be lacking ?





 
Abe Connally
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B12 symptoms won't show up for years, and then you have serious problems.  I don't know if soil organisms would give you a proper daily allowance, but possibly.

VitD can come from the sun, but there are different types of D, and different sources.  Most folks actually don't get enough in the winter, but are fine in the summer.

I would also worry about Magnesium, as it could create big problems in health down the line, but you are probably ok, if you are eating a lot of Almonds.  Most people don't get enough Magnesium, and have high blood pressure, osteoporosis, tooth decay, heart disease, and tons of other things.

The thing with vitamins and minerals is that they can cause issues that aren't directly linked with that particular Vit or Min.  You need them all, and they all play a role. Some symptoms are not easily visible, until organs start crapping out on you.

Another thing is amount.  Take Magnesium for instance.  I've heard people say, "oh well, there is Magnesium in pecans, so I am safe cause I eat pecans."  But, how many pecans do they eat?  I seem to remember to get your daily allowance of Magnesium, you need like a Kg of pecans.  And who eat a Kg of pecans every day?

And something like magnesium is so important and can cause so many issues in deficiency, that it might be hard to track down.  You might have a sudden heart attack, so the doctors take you off fats and salt and meats, etc, but they aren't telling you to eat more Magnesium.

If I had to guess (and I am not a nutritionist or an expert on this at all) I would say you could be lacking in B vitamins, maybe K, possibly A, depending on the veggies you are eating. I would check your D intakes, but I think you are probably alright with that. For minerals, who knows, cause that can vary a lot depending on the land and what is there to begin with.

how are your teeth/gums?  Eyes?  Any headaches or fatigue in the mornings before breakfast? Do you have any areas of health that might concern you, any conditions?  How is your weight and muscle tone?  Energy levels throughout the day? Do you have Allergies, like hay fever?

All in all, I imagine that you have a decent diet here.  If it were me, I would watch the corn and beans, but everything else looks really good.  Depending on the veggies you eat, some things could be increased/decreased to meet a certain vitamin or mineral need. B vitamins could be an issue, so just keep it in mind.
 
Emerson White
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He shouldn't be lacking in K, because that goes through the large intestinal wall from E. coli B-12 is hard to get though, Plants have some but not nearly enough for humans. Wild fungi have a survivable amount if I recall. All the ruminants can catch enough of it because they ferment the food before it passes through their stomach, hind gut digesters make it in their large intestines then eat their own poop. Humans make more than enough of it for ourselves but we make it in the large intestine and it has to go through the stomach (and get hooked up with so called intrinsic factor) and then I think it gets  picked up in the ilium (first half of the small intestine), since you don't eat anything that comes out of your large intestine you don't get the B-12 that you make, it's community service.

Go get a shot once a year and you don't have to worry about it, if you are getting regular medical examinations you can just call ahead and work it in. The carbon footprint of the yearly shot is going to be smaller than the daily vitamin pills, and more effective.

The bacteria that make it can also grow in your nose and mouth but you should endevor to have less there rather than more bacteria in those places and they will not produce enough for you to live on. We only know about this vitamin because people end up deficient and with serious medical problems.

Also, Chlorophyll is not a human nutrient. It does come with some magnesium which is nice, but its a porphyrin rin which means that absolutely none of it is absorbed in the mouth, throat or stomach, and with out the protection of intrinsic factor (which binds to B-12, also a porphyrin ring) it is 100% broken down in the stomach. It just releases a tiny bit of magnesium, and the rest is simple (ish) sugar alchohols, lipids, and nitrogenous compounds.
 
                  
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velacreations wrote:
, I would watch the corn and beans, but everything else looks really good.  Depending on the veggies you eat, some things could be increased/decreased to meet a certain vitamin or mineral need.



What is the concern with Corn and Beans ?
 
Abe Connally
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What is the concern with Corn and Beans ?


It depends on the amount in your diet, but a lot of people are very sensitive to starch levels, and that can all sorts of consequences, including diabetes, obesity, heart disease, tooth problems, etc. It involves how the body deals with starches, and how that can wear your systems down, but I won't go into too much.  There is plenty of info on the web about that.

Just watch the ratio in your diet, and see how your body reacts.  If you notice some problems form, adjust appropriately.



 
                  
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velacreations wrote:
It depends on the amount in your diet, but a lot of people are very sensitive to starch levels, and that can all sorts of consequences, including diabetes, obesity, heart disease, tooth problems, etc. It involves how the body deals with starches, and how that can wear your systems down, but I won't go into too much.  There is plenty of info on the web about that.

Just watch the ratio in your diet, and see how your body reacts.  If you notice some problems form, adjust appropriately.






As stated above ,this is not regular corn.

Where does one get calories ?  starches ??
 
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well the diet of food that I'm eating at this time is very very low carb. I eat about 4 cups of raw greens as well as 2 cups or so of raw vegetables and 2 cups or so of cooked vegetables every day..a couple ounces of cheese, a couple ounces of nuts and seeds, 3 to 5 eggs per day and as much as 3 servings of meat, most of it is in our freezer or canned...but some is fresh.

I get most of my greens from my greenhouse right now but am purchasing a few of the raw vegetables from the store that I can't get in the winter here in Michigan, like peppers and tomatos, maybe next year I'll have the ability to keep them alive longer in the greenhouse.

we have a lot of wild animals on our property that we can harvest, turkey, partridge, dove, pheasant, rabbit, bear and whitetail deer, as well as smaller animals like squirrels, etc.

I have planted a lot of nut trees which should begin to bear in the next year or two, I have dozens of kinds of berry bushes and dozens of kinds of fruit trees which are of bearing age now. I plant about an acre of vegetable/fruit/herb garden mixed and have herbs and fruit trees growing in my woods and in my flower garden beds as well..

At this time I'm buying my eggs from an amish farm nearby as we haven't gotten a coop up yet for chickens, but I hope to have them next year, and if so I'll grow feed for them which might take up some more room, but I would only have enough to provide the eggs and meat that we would eat ..just the two of us..maybe 6 hens and a rooster..as a permanent flock...or possibly some ducks or geese? not sure, as we have a pond..we also plan to stock fish for protein in the next year or so
 
                          
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Brenda, Muscovy ducks are incredibly prolific all on their own.  They will often raise 3 large clutches a year.  Highly recommended.  They also grow like weeds.
 
Abe Connally
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Where does one get calories ?  starches ??


The nuts should be providing you with quite a bit of calories, and you can get starches from tubers, much higher in vitamins, anyway than grains. You don't need a whole lot of starches, anyway, but you could easily substitute your corn for tubers and nuts.

If you ate meat, you could substitute some calories with that, but if it is strict veggie, focus on nuts and tubers. Some grain is not the end of the world, but just keep an eye on it.  If you start seeing signs of hyperglycemia, dissy spells, problems with your teeth, weight gain, get off the grains, and adjust accordingly. A lot of people are sensitive to a high starch diet, but you might not be.

What kind of corn is it, and what makes it different?
 
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I agree with vela, carbohydrates ("starches") and calories could come from roots and tubers, as they do in some of the One Circle diets.  I've had much more success growing roots and tubers than in growing grains, so I plan to grow my calories in the form of tubers.  There are also several kinds of perennial tubers but not to my knowledge many perennial grains.

 
                  
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It is open pollinated and germinated flint corn

http://tinyurl.com/2cvwmvp

Flint is less starch to start with ...  germination changes the starches

Not sure where you got your starch figures for corn

 
Abe Connally
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nuts are also good sources of carbs, and most are perennial.

@jmy - if it is working for you, great. Just watch for small signs of deficiency or problems with the grains. Germination can help, especially removing some of the natural toxins in grains, but it does not convert all of the starches. And the conversion is to simpler carbohydrates (sugars), which is not necessarily a good thing.

 
Tyler Ludens
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Yes, definitely going to try to grow some nuts, so far not much success. 
 
                  
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velacreations wrote:
And the conversion is to simpler carbohydrates (sugars), which is not necessarily a good thing.




Where does one get their Calories from then ?  Fat ?

 
Abe Connally
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Where does one get their Calories from then ?  Fat ?


Sure, fat is a decent source of calories. 

But, you suggested that sprouting corn converted the starches.  My reply is that those starches are converted to simpler carbohydrates and sugars.

Nuts and tubers and other things that don't need sprouting would be fine sources for calories. Meat is another good source of calories.
 
Emerson White
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velacreations wrote:
But, you suggested that sprouting corn converted the starches.  My reply is that those starches are converted to simpler carbohydrates and sugars.



That's not entirely correct. While the enzymatic processes do turn starches to sugars they do it for a reason, that reason is to burn the sugars and feed biosynthesis or functional fats and proteins.
 
                  
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velacreations wrote:
Sure, fat is a decent source of calories. 

But, you suggested that sprouting corn converted the starches.  My reply is that those starches are converted to simpler carbohydrates and sugars.

Nuts and tubers and other things that don't need sprouting would be fine sources for calories. Meat is another good source of calories.



What is the daily/weekly diet of an existing permaculturist ?

where are they located ?

do they import nutrients ?
 
Abe Connally
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What is the daily/weekly diet of an existing permaculturist ?


This would be varied for most permaculturists, but it would most likely involve quite a bit of perrenial crops/foods.

For me, we eat a lot of nuts, including pecans, almonds, hickory, and filberts. We have fresh and dried tree fruits: plums, apricots, cherries, apples, peaches, figs, pomegranates, etc. We eat tree grains/seeds - mesquite, acorns, honey locust.

In addition, we have a lot of annuals: tomatoes, peppers, okra, carrots, radish, potatoes, turnips, leeks, onions, garlic, sunflowers, millet, buckwheat.

We also have rabbit, chickens/eggs, goats/goat milk, bees/honey, and pigs.

There are also a lot of natural perennials/annuals that we don't plant, but we do harvest, or use for animal feed.

All of the above mentioned items we grow and harvest ourselves.

where are they located ?


I'm in the mountains of Northern Mexico

do they import nutrients ?


We import some things, mostly trading for our surplus.  A lot of our neighbors have beef, so we trade rabbits or hides for beef.  We also import salt, sugar, spices, and some wheat flour.  We export a lot of nutrients as well, mostly surplus harvests.
 
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