Get Crown land in Canada

The process is a not too hard but I think that if a group were formed it would be alot easier. The land is dirt cheep and you could all get a chunk of a big range. I think BC or atlantic provinces are the best land because you can grow more different stuff. I'm game for anywhere.
If any one (Canadian) is interested in forming an assotiation to obtain crown land for permaculture lets do it. Think outside the box. Go big or go home.

What are the requirements for a citizen of the United States to emigrate to Canada?

Kathleen

Do you have any unique skills? Are you a skilled technician of some sort? Can you find an employer who is willing to sponsor you in order to obtain your services?

Emerson White wrote:
Do you have any unique skills? Are you a skilled technician of some sort? Can you find an employer who is willing to sponsor you in order to obtain your services?

I should have qualified that -- I wasn't asking for myself, but because it's a question that would have to be asked by anyone who was planning to move to Canada from the United States.  As far as I know, anyone who is planning to live in Canada full-time has to legally emigrate.  Otherwise, I believe they are limited to a few months a year residency.  So it would be something to consider if someone was planning to take up any of that cheap Crown land.

Kathleen

It is not an easy move to make. Canada is up to it's gills in Americans, it doesn't want em .

Actually in my understanding if you own land in Canada (and yes a US citizen can purchase land there and just about any other country however you cannot live there full time unless on a visa) and decide to move to Canada and give up US citizenship it is a lot easier than if you were to reverse it and be Canadian moving to the US.

http://www.slate.com/id/2109135/ According to slate in 2004 it took just 25 months on average to process the requests, that's not too bad actually. Still unsure of the success rates.

You can't aplly for Crown land unless ure Canadian and there's real cheep land in the USA anyway. I was hoping to get Canadians to respond.

You know I'm game Jeff. I'd love to go back to BC. Just not too north, it's too cold to grow and the biting bugs are bad, not nice for the kids. I have friends who'd be interested depending on location etc.

BDAFJeff wrote:
The process is a not too hard but I think that if a group were formed it would be alot easier. The land is dirt cheep and you could all get a chunk of a big range. I think BC or atlantic provinces are the best land because you can grow more different stuff. I'm game for anywhere.
If any one (Canadian) is interested in forming an assotiation to obtain crown land for permaculture lets do it. Think outside the box. Go big or go home.

Been looking into this off and on over the past year but haven't found anything that seemed "not too hard"    Do you have any links that you can share for more information on this?

I was on the official site, type in lease crown land. There is cheep private land to but I can't afford much maybe $4000 I would only wisit in short sperts, a week or two and then bale.

my wife and I would be interested! We currently live in a small cabin on a trailer frame in Cobble Hill Vancouver Island BC, so we are mobile.    I am an American waiting for my permanent residency papers, takes about a year .   My wife is Canadian.    We are both gardeners she, 20 years, myself as a child and the last 4 years.   I am a carpenter with 25 years experience and a natural builder Cob, straw bale, stone etc.   We would prefer staying on the island but are open to ideas.

Hello 1st time on here, so if I break any rules or stuff like that lemme know.I tend to be blunt at times ....kinda like a hammer. Some people can take my straight forward attitude the wrong way add to that wicked sense of humour and well some peeps have issues with that too. But I digress, hubby and I were thinking the same way we live in Northern Ontario, lots of land here but much conservatism in attitude. ( I was protested against when I was at the 1st pagan Pride Day here)My husband and I are on a tight budget but are hard working and are goal oriented, looking for nice little spot to raise our kids.We currently live in social housing and ALL it implies(yes northern Ontario has Ghetto's...just small scale) Tried to put in a small garden in our townhouse plot the neighborhood kids destroyed it.
  Police could do nothing and could really care less, not to mention the neighborhood Hub lost a couple of these children on an outing,it's saddens me to think that as a society we've been reduced to this. Living in poverty(we're under Canada's poverty line,with part time work and supplemental income)watching out for your neighbors "cause they might prey on you.Terrified for your kids, my oldest has Aspberger's syndrome(high functioning Autism)the kids don't understand him sometimes and bully him...he's had a knife pulled on him. Not to mention all the waste these huge townhouse buildings produce my electric bill in now 130$ sometimes more a month.(housing took out the umbrella clothes lines "cause of kids breakin them) the insulation SUCKS we are currently muggy,hot by next month we will be on a high broil and well the condensations makes sure my walls have a have a lovely yellowish grey weeping pattern which is wiped down more often than I care to do.Let's not get into the mold in my baby's room or the bathroom or the "seeping" basement.Winter is the exact polar opossite.Post nasal drip seems to be the norm in my house.
  Now that being said I qualify for a disability pension due to Diabetes and ptsd(post traumatic stress dissorder)....however have no current Doctor and am currently on a waiting list.We worked out a plan with my current walk-in clinic to help me on that front.Once that comes in money will be alot less tight and back pay forthcoming. I am willing to pitch in some of that for land.
  Obviously planing and coming up with suitable shelter and other considerations would have to be made, who has what skills and the like.  Hopefully I haven't offended anyone.

Peace Out .

Just want to respond to US people in Canada.  I bought crown land in NL.  The NL government now realize the value of the land.  It was more expensive than it had been in recent years.  And as a US citizen the amount of time as a seasonal resident is no more than 6 months.  I can garden from June 1 and get plenty of harvest and leave December 1.  As for becoming a permenant resident, I do not qualify for any of the requirements.  Basically one needs to have a lot of money.

hello

someone here said that buying crown land was dirt cheap.
just how cheap is it? lets say to buy 1 acre, anywhere in canada.
i found it confusing to navigate the right websites to find info on crown land that's available for purchase as well as how much it costs.

thanks for the help.

I'm from BC so will speak to the Crown land issue in BC Canada. Up until the 70s there was a homestead
act in BC and you could stake and improve property and eventually get deed.
This was revoked in the 70s and its almost impossible for a private citizen Canadian or otherwise to
acquire Crown land in the province of B.C.
95 percent of the province is Crown land by the way but the Government issues Timber/mining licenses to
corporations but has not to my recent knowledge sold any to private citizens.
Saying that with 4 million population and a land mass larger than Washington,Oregon and California put
together this seems ridiculous.
What it means is as are population grows the available land for private ownership shrinks hence the
terribly high prices.
I can't speak for the rest of the provinces in Canada but here in BC the peoples land (Crown) tends to put
us in a serfdom position.
There was a time you could lease recreational property and then buy it but I believe they plugged that loophole too except if you buy a grandfathered in lease that has that clause.
Saying that if you find that you have to pay fair market value and values are very high in BC.
This in my opinion is an unfortunate situation.

Thanks Lefty11
That's what I've been hearing too. I think the laws are now similar to BC's lawas all over Canada. It's unfortunate since the amount of land that Canada has is ridiculously huge, and no one is really doing much with it. It should be easier for people to have access and rights the land.
but i think things will change in the near future...

Potential immigrants to Canada should go to gc.ca , the official Canadian government site and find the application rules which are all there somewhere, I believe, if you hunt around.

I'm interested in Crown Land in Saskatchewan. See my post "Sask Land Share", also in Great White North forum, to get an idea of me.

I often get very frustrated by the land situation, made even more ironic in a country like Canada - a vast place with a relatively low population. Basically, we should all be given some land, IMO. And there should be limits on how much rich people can grab. Should money be the main consideration in whether and how much land we can acquire? I think not. Land policies need much improvement!!!

Basically, the gov grabbed all the land in the beginning, immorally, through force and violence. It gave some to new immigrants and imprisoned Natives on reserves. Now, no more free land for anyone. No squatting or staking or cheap buys. The gov still owns incredibly vast amounts of land to this day, which we call Crown Land. But to get a good piece of land in a location one desires by any means is costly.

Us low income folks are therefore forced to live on the bad side of town often, the affordable side, or we are on a troubled Indian reservation, or some other undesirable situation. Yet, this country is so BIG! That's my frustration. Some pencil-pushers somewhere restrict me from living in a good place for no good reason, while the land goes unused, or sold to people who abuse it, or just have more money.

Those who would live gently and beautifully and appreciatively on the land often can't. I don't know how to change this. I can agitate, but it looks like it will take a while before this has much effect.

Fortunately, I think economies everywhere including here are about to crash, so I think there will be a lot of cheap land around soon. Probably also a lot of gov officials who have much more urgent things to do than find and kick survival squatters off Crown Land. However, the insecurity of squatting is still much less preferable than having a piece of paper which says you can remain.

i was wondering myself about how to bring about a change in the govt laws regarding obtaining land, to make it easier and more affordable for people to get their own piece of it.
i came to the conclusion that simply a bunch of people who demand cheaper land won't make much of a difference. the govt wont care right now about protestors. I think the best way to change the laws is for a lot of people to buy their own land (which will be costly right now) and live out there. Then in many years to come, the govt will be forced to respect the realistic desire of so many people to live off the land, and the laws will change.

Yes, the power of pooling money and other resources to acquire land seems to be the best course of action, at least for now. To live cooperatively in an eco-village or some type of intentional community or shared land arrangement is often better, anyway

I just remembered that there's a way (or was at least a few years ago in Saskatchewan) to lease Crown Land in Canada. I started to look into it a decade or so ago. I got to the point of talking to a provincial government guy to confirm that the possibility exists, but then I never pursued it further.

I think the provision exists so that people can establish hunting lodges or whatever, for a time. From a government point of view, I guess they're open to this kind of thing and are of course interested in making money off Crown Land, whether they are leasing to mining company or a recreational outfit.

So, I'm thinking why not a lease for an eco-village? With some bending and expanding of activities, it easily becomes a recreational thing. With the growth of environmental awareness, they might go for it. But it may be advantageous or even necessary to make it a type of learning facility, something you can advertise publicly as a place where people can come and pay a fee to learn about how to live sustainably and so forth.

In my own case, I'm most interested in forested land, so I could include the teaching of survival skills to those who sign up for it, like how to find and use wild medicinal and food plants.

I don't know much about those things, but part of the whole proposal would be finding persons to join up who have this expertise, In official-speak, this would be "acquiring staff". As well, it's easy to begin to educate oneself in survival things, but to emphasize that I'm seeking already qualified people will probably help my case.

Basically, if there is an avenue here, I think it is much about how you approach government reps, how you frame your words, how you communicate your intent.
If you do it a more professional manner, then they don't get the idea that you're just a hippy who wants to live in the bush.

Basically, if one is willing diversify eco-village projects so that it isn't just a bunch of people living there, but rather a place which offers something to the general permies, then it might have a shot at success. I think to make a commercial endeavour in this regard, similar to a fishing lodge, etc, may be necessary to get them to at least consider the proposal.

lightning wrote:
So, I'm thinking why not a lease for an eco-village? With some bending and expanding of activities, it easily becomes a recreational thing. With the growth of environmental awareness, they might go for it. But it may be advantageous or even necessary to make it a type of learning facility, something you can advertise publicly as a place where people can come and pay a fee to learn about how to live sustainably and so forth.

It would be such a shame to develop something like this on land you could lose any day but aside from that it sounds like a great plan. I'd be into it.

I think the leases are long term, over many years, so there would not be the risk of losing the place it without cause. You may be able stay indefinitely.

But it requires current research. And I have no idea how much money they would want. Perhaps it is too expensive for many of us. But it may be worth looking into.

Kathleen Sanderson wrote:
What are the requirements for a citizen of the United States to emigrate to Canada?

Kathleen

you are allowed to live here for 6 months out of a year, more than that you need a visa.

I'm also looking at purchasing land. I'm currently looking at a very large chunk (over 200 acres) adjoining Prince Albert National Park. Trees, bluffs, some farmland. This is a gorgeous area, with MUCH wildlife, even buffalo. The park itself is a jewel of this province and it's undeveloped in this area, so living there would be like having unlimited wilderness at your doorstep. Yet, there are roads and services close enough. I want to go check it out.

Since it's semi-remote, I would need people to help me live there. Also, there may be buy-in opportunities, and both short term rent and long term lease options. If you are tolerant, green, cooperative, etc, we might be suitable land-mates... It is off-grid, as far as I know. Contact me, if interested. 

PS  co-owning the land with me would also be an option.

I had a long chat with a gov official.  She was quite helpful.  They do not do private leases in Saskatchewan of Crown Land to persons/families except in the north.  There is a certain latitude which is the cutoff point.  I forget which one, but apparently it is near La Ronge, so if you look on a map, that gives an idea.  Just draw a line across the province, or see which line of latitude is closest and that is likely it.

So, this puts one pretty far north. The good news is that a lot is pretty cheap (about $600/year, if I recall) and an increase in the size of it to, say, an acre, is not that expensive, either.  Personally, I would find an acre or two acceptable, providing that I did not have near neighbours, just more forest, etc.

What you can do on a northern lease may be somewhat restricted.  You may have to put in a septic tank to please their sense of environmental integrity (even though an outhouse is arguably far more eco).  I didn't get too much in what I could do and what I couldn't do.  Frankly, I think the world will soon go topsy-turvy and so them coming to check on you will then be highly unlikely.  But, I think they are currently mainly leasing to people who want to put up a nice cabin, a place to get away to, to fish and hunt, etc, so they are more used to regulating that kind of thing.  But, I think as long as you didn't do something outrageous, like cut down a bunch of forest, there is probably much you would be allowed to do, or could get away with. 

There may be opportunities in south of La Ronge, but they would be in places like Regional Parks, which are not her department.

The person I spoke to is Corinne, in Prince Albert, 1 - 306 - 953 - 3363

      I have traveled to many of the sorts of places where this land is available. There are residency requirements and development requirements. I've also checked out lots of land which was selling for between $15 and $100 per acre. There were very good reasons for this cheap price and I ended up buying land in a more hospitable climate where people live. The $15 per acre stuff was north of Sudbury Ontario. It was clear-cut black spruce and Aspen. In that climate it takes about 75 years to get any useful stand of forest. The land tax over time ends up costing considerably more than the original purchase price. I'm a Canadian and have been to every province and have never encountered any free land which was worth owning.

    A century ago there were great opportunities for free land, then the government thought it would be a good idea to create northern development through land giveaways. Distance and climate have kept most of these communities from thriving.

    To see just how far governments will go to create development in inhospitable climates check out what the Soviet Union managed to do in Siberia. They moved hundreds of thousands of people into some horrible spots. Today the offspring of these people invariably head south.

Yes, the isolation factor can be great. Locating near an existing town or thriving rural community will help matters, of course, but some research is order to find out if a place is excessively redneck or what. Many northern areas are primarily occupied by Natives whose lives are fraught with problems, like substance abuse issues. But, in Northern Saskatchewan, I've heard good things about the community of Pinehouse, so if I go in this direction, it would be a place I'd check out.

I often reflect that there's a lot of injustice for us low income people. The land was originally basically stolen by the first immigrant governments. Now, all that which is in reasonably convenient, nice locations is often very costly, with no regulations to prevent prices going as high as the market will bear. If you can sell 1 acre for $10 million dollars, you are free to do it. Something very strange about that, since land is ultimately owned by no one and everyone. And rich people are allowed to acquire as much land as they can. No regulations about this either, even if they made their money pillaging the environment or exploiting people. If you can buy 10 million acres, you are free to do so. This is also strange, since land is a limited commodity. Meanwhile, low income people are often relegated to the poorer, more dangerous parts of cities, with few other choices, if any. In Saskatoon, Sk, near where I live, this means the wild west side of town, where there aren't even any rent controls.

Where is the justice in all this? Why is there not program to make sure there are always low priced acreages in good locations available, in this vast land of low population? (I have asked the provincial Green Party to form policy about this.) Who said some entity could control all the land, give much advantage to the rich and deny me, a person who loves the land, a humble place to live? Need I join the rat race in order to afford a place? It is all far, far less than ideal, but until the priorities of more people change, so that we can change gov policies, I guess we stuck with these circumstances.

But I still think the world is heading into extreme economic depression, so this should make a lot of land available and affordable. And people like us know how to survive and prosper on it, even during hard times.

That's my morning rant and I'm sticking to it.

      I often marvel at how cheap things are on the American side of the border. I'm in Victoria where houses in a decent neighborhood sell for $700,000. If you're looking for property on this island the very cheapest 5 acre parcels that are any good at all start at about $150,000 and they quite often entail a long drive north or the inconvenience of multiple ferry trips. But looking straight across the water at the Olympic Peninsula of Washington state 20 miles to the south there are 5 acre parcels for 75,000. And there are houses for $120,000. As most people are aware the United States has had a major financial calamity in recent years with housing prices bottoming out. Anyone who has managed to fit into the economy in a meaningful way but steered clear of debt should be in a perfect position to capitalize on the foolishness of others.

      Canadian banking laws did not allow subprime loans which handed money to people without a prayer of paying it back. And most of us don't use credit to buy fancy shoes or vacations. Because of this we haven't seen huge drops in property value. Quite often great deals exist because someone else has made very poor decisions. And we all know where some of the most shortsighted, "I want it all even though I can't afford it "people live. Call it social Darwinism, corporate greed or just call it Nancy . That's the reality of what has happened with real estate.

    If you're young, productive and American you are currently looking at some of the greatest opportunity you are likely to ever encounter. Act on it.

     The smart money is shopping in the United States right now because that's where the deals are. If you don't have any money, get some! If most of my personal wealth wasn't tied up in my land here I would take it shopping in some of the more downtrodden areas of the US where foreclosures have depressed real estate prices.

I think things will get bad all over, so I think real estate prices will plummet here, too, before too long. Really, I think it's a global depression which is coming, which is already started. Canada has so far fared well, but we cannot escape that which is global in nature. Environmental catastrophes will likely lead the way in causing factors, but they will not be the only factors. With all that will precipitate as a result of hard times, land buyers should consider their location wisely, even if cheaper land is somewhere else.

Why has Canada done better economically, so far? Probably many reasons. The one you mentioned, better bank loan rules, is one. Low population, vast resources, too. But, I also see a lot of dirty money around these days. Tar sands money, uranium money, etc. These things make cash, but undermine the economy in the long run, cuz the environment is the basis of the economy. Many economists state that a clean, green economy is also a wealthy one. Obviously, long term, it is the only type which can be. So, Canada may have done/do some things right, but also I think mainstream Canada has taken the easy route to dirty money and we are just lucky to live where we do, so we shouldn't pat ourselves on the back too much. Germany seems to be increasingly proving the truth of clean, green economies.

Harper is basically ignoring the need to get clean and green. Strangely, the bulk of Canadians just stand back and watch, even enjoy it and vote for him. What a farce. Shows the power of a little money. People will ignore over half of century of dire warnings from such notables as David Suzuki just to make some money in a system which won't last, can't last, and is hurting everyone and everything, even ourselves. Money can bury the love for children, future generations and other species. It seems to easily blind people. We have no one to blame but ourselves for voting in such narrow-minded persons. Well, I'm probably preaching to no one but the already converted, here.

Hi there,

I'm a canadian, currently living in ontario and hoping to stay - the idea of crown land sounds interesting, where would you find listings for this type of land. Also, what websites would you tend to use to find good bargains on land for sale in general? has anyone taken part in a 'tax sale' ?

thanks!

In Ontario, it is likely the same as Saskatchewan - go through provincial government for Crown Land. Try their website. Could be under Resources or Environment or something. There should be a government Information number, to get you started on the right track. I'll let Ontarions confirm or correct this...

For cheap land and that sold for failure to pay taxes, I'm not sure. Ask at banks, perhaps. Rural Municipality offices? Not sure. Ask around

Good luck

Anything North of a line Peace River AB - Cold Lake AB - Prince Albert SK - The Pas MB will give you a growing season shorter than 90 days. Soil is very acidic and sandy, because of the boreal forest, and at some other places, very thin.

I'm sure that problem can be solved by building a few greenhouses, creating microclimates, and mulching. The forest is also so thick, there are enough trees per acre to build a whole log house on a little more than an acre.

I think all what you have just said about the north is generally true, although the days are freakishly long in summer.  Yet, unseasonal frosts can occur in any month, so mind your tomatoes....  There books on how to garden up there.  One can even garden much further north with the right gear and the right choices in vegies

you can certainly garden in those areas, especially if you take some special care with your arrangements and a greenhouse is very useful. However; living in the north is something that a lot of people cannot manage for very long. Even if there is a city nearby (unlikely if you are getting really cheap land) the isolation is something that turns out to have a much greater effect than people have expected.

There used to be a large community northwest of Fort St John; all people originally from the States, an intentional community, and a lot of different families. They tended to be well educated, and they worked really hard in a bunch of different areas (building log houses and lodges in places such as the Queen Charlotte Islands, running a bakery and then later an oil patch catering outfit as well as running the cattle ranch). they did it all well. They built houses and had an onsite school for the kids. They mostly all had a bunch of kids. One of the reasons they were there was because they didn't want their kids to be raised in a culture they didn't have much say in the influences their kids would be subject to.

They were operating for quite a number of years, then the founder of the thing died and within a year or two, everyone scattered to the wind..the kids had all headed south as soon as they could anyway and the parents followed. I think one stayed on at the ranch.

I guess the moral of the story is that there is virtually no wilderness left, what with seismic and logging and mining and oil roads running everywhere; and I would really wish that people who want to move to the north and have never lived there, would get someplace already existing rather than diminish what little truly wild land there is left. I believe we need to share with the wild things and some of them need a large chunk of uninhabited land. There is a lot of very cheap land in Saskatchewan if you look around, and I can't imagine that doesn't also apply to BC around places like Burn's Lake. I would hate to see all the wilderness dotted with cabins, half of which WILL be abandoned over time. Seems to me looking at wilderness land as something that has no value until humans put it to use is just a sort of extension of the "well, the oil is there, let's use it til it's gone" point of view.

There are lots of places throughout Saskatchewan alone being sold for taxes, often because someone has died and the heirs don't want it and don't care about it. In some provinces the government now charges "market value" for these but so far not here. I bought a house (albeit a good deal rattier than I had been prepared for but that's another story) for $3500 and it's only 30 miles from a town of 18 000 and half a mile of the main highway. It was supposed to be a short term thing until I got my land up and going but the other thing I wasn't prepared for was the absolute absence of people to hire to help do things. So, I'm still here. Unexpected things happen.

In the same village where I live, a house went for auction a year ago for a little less than $20,000 100x100 foot lot, nice garden area new double garage etc. house was older and small but in good condition. There are presently something like 40 properties behind in their taxes. I'm quite sure that this isn't anything exceptional except in the major towns. The prices are going up because people are buying properties to speculate..some places even sell lots for $1 but they have conditions..you have to build withing a certain period of time and sometimes they demand that the house you build meets certain criteria. So probably a cob house wouldn't do it.

Outside of the villages you have to look a little harder but the land is there, there is no need to wander off and cut down more trees and take down more wilderness. That is for most people a romantic fantasy which is much more appealing as a fantasy than as a reality. How do you market stuff to pay the taxes and buy shoes and toothbrushes when you are 500 miles from anywhere with more than 1000 people? What happens when the tree falls the wrong way and takes out your satellite connection so you have no contact with the outside world, or kicks back and hurts you and you're 100 or more miles from a hospital? Or your kid gets sick and there are 5 foot drifts of snow across the road for 100 miles? How long will it be an adventure to struggle out to the outhouse or to look after the chickens in a snowstorm at -40? Or melt snow for water because the pump froze or broke? Have you ever spent even 2 months without going to the store? How do you pay for things like gas (VERY expensive in these areas) to go to the post office to pick up those seeds or the plastic for that greenhouse? Where is the money coming from?

This is not to say it can't be done as it clearly can; just not by most people who will try it. I worked for years in the patch and lots of people couldn't even stand THAT much isolation, with 30+ people around, lots to do, all the conveniences of modern living and only for two or three weeks. They all came out assuming that they'd be fine..only for two weeks after all.. and they couldn't hack it. So I have seen this a lot. PLEASE try to find somewhere that someone already started that needs love and care before moving into the "wilderness".

Anyone wishing to test their ability to live in these climates need only find a job with a tree planter or at a lumber or mining camp in Canada's North. I lived in one for six months and had no desire to go to town and spend my money. Others found themselves drawn to a strip joint on the Indian reserve so often that they had nothing to show financially, for their time spent in the bush.

I believe a project like this would be an ideal one for my brother Jeff the original poster, as he has already lived very remotely in Mexico. A group situation is probably much better than doing something like this alone since many would probably want to make regular trips back to civilization. Someone who really likes isolation could always be left behind so that things don't go amiss during absences. The government gives out allotments on an individual basis so each member of the group would need to apply to own adjacent parcels.

If a group did choose to go deep into the hinterlands it would make sense to do it close to a resource town or to an area which is quickly developing a mine or other megaproject, since the people from that development would make a natural customer base. It's very expensive to transport goods to the population centers. Small northern communities commonly pay high prices for fruit vegetables and meat so none of this stuff should be trucked south. A community built in total isolation would have no market for anything produced, would not have access to medical services, schools etc. which would make life much more difficult. People live comfortably in Yellowknife and Whitehorse because there is an established community. Anyone heading into a similar patch of forest or tundra where there is no established community, would have a hard job just surviving let alone thriving.