PEP1 is 2 weeks, PEP2 is 3 months, PEP3 is 9 months and PEP4 is 2 years

A formal PEP1 program would last 2 weeks (~80 hours).  Completing the PEP1 program requires 16 sand badges.

A formal PEP2 program would fill a summer (~510 hours).  Requires 1 wood badge + 7 straw badges + 14 sand badges (a badge in all 22 aspects).

A formal PEP3 program would take about nine months (~1550 hours).   Requires 7 wood badges + 15 straw badges (a badge in all 22 aspects).

A formal PEP4 program would take a little over two years (~4700 hours).  Requires 3 iron badges + 12 wood badges + 7 straw badges (a badge in all 22 aspects).


In general, I think the approximate time to complete a badge would be about:

   sand badge: ~5 hours
   straw badge: ~40 hours (+35 hours over sand, about 4 or 5 days)
   wood badge: ~220 hours (+180 hours over straw, about 4 to 5 weeks)
   iron badge: 1250 hours (+1030 hours over wood, about six months)

Most of the students would have completed the PEP1 program in 80 hours, but some would have put in longer hours.  Some people would complete PEP1 without a formal PEP1 program.  They would have done it all from home - they posted pictures of their progress to permies and got certified online.  Somebody in the permaculture bootcamp program would probably get half of their PEP1 requirements met with project labor in a month - and they might get the other half completed on their own time (evenings and weekends).

PEP4 iron badges:  Natural building and Gardening are required iron badges.  The third iron badge is your choice, but cannot be oddball or homesteading.

I like that it allows some wiggle room for personal interests to drive how PEP works for me. I can get my straw badge in animal husbandry for instance and my other 12 sand badges will show how I can stack functions with my animals through landscape design, fiber harvesting, on farm economics, rotational grazing, green woodworking, etc. Now I might have the required covered, ive started to see the world through Pail’s Eyes, but I get to start to build the permaculture system of my dreams. Then I can move on to PEP 2 to grow my skills and uncover more interconnectedness.

So, if a person completes one of these things, like felling the tree with the bow saw, where do you put the documentation?  Just start a new thread, or add to the one about felling the tree or ?

If there's a Badge Bit thread on felling a tree, you add it there. If there's not, I'd post to the appropriate badge page (the woodland one, right?)

Nicole Alderman wrote:If there's a Badge Bit thread on felling a tree, you add it there. If there's not, I'd post to the appropriate badge page (the woodland one, right?)

Thanks Nicole.

So I am not personally likely to participate in PEP. I don't need to inherit land from a stranger, or do anything else where proving my permie cred is likely to matter.

I suppose it's possible that I might use it to evaluate someone else at some point, especially as a measure of willingness to comply with instructions.. Hm. Actually that aspect does sound kind of useful!

It is an interesting experiment...

But if I was interested in hoops I would be frustrated at the idea of stopping halfway and moving off to take pics, or in some of these posts needing to have a second person around to take pictures. Do you really expect people to go out, take a before pic, get someone else to cut down the tree, then take the after pic?

A half cut tree is just not something I walk away from...


Digging holes specifically to get a badge strikes me as not very permie... perhap the site does not need holes. Perhaps it needs a ditch, or a foundation, or one enormous hole... I've got a few tens of hours in my excavator so far and have never yet operated it while other people are available as it's a one person job...

Perhaps some more flexibility in this scheme would be beneficial?

This is interesting to me because while I do not have much interest in being certified, I know it addresses a few problems. The first is that from the observation of people that have traveled the country, few people are fully engaged in Permiculture (me included), but rather just picking and choosing elements of it. This puts a whole set of guidelines in a nice box so everything is defined, and obtainable. It really gives structure for someone that is struggling with the overwhelming aspect of where to start and where to go with permaculture on their farm, and at the end they get a certification that shows their progress.

I grew up farming, and took it for granted what I knew until I was at work, and a guy that had been raising cattle for 3 years in a homestead sort of way, said that he just learned that cows needed salt. I was blown away because I thought everyone just knew that. Over time I realized there was just so much stuff that people do not know, so I fully understand where having a course has a lot of merit to people. This is especially so for those that are competitive, or people who love to knock things off a list. That is not me, but that does not mean being competitive is wrong, I think it is great for people to take on challenges on things not yet tried.

Stopping to videotape, or take photos would indeed be a hassle, and in fact I have thought many times about doing a YouTube Channel about Homesteading. The problem is, I am a doer and not one to talk about it. I almost sawed THE biggest log I have ever put on my sawmill yesterday without taking pictures of it because I wanted get the log sawed out, but figured I had better get a camera and snap some pictures because I do not saw 30 inch pine logs everyday. But most of the time, I just forge ahead and do not stop for pictures, BUT I am not looking for a certification either. If I was competitive, wanting to certify my farm in Permiculure, then I would. I would have too, and that is just how life works. You have to do the work up front to get the reward. In this case, you do the work, document it, then submit it for a certification award.

Eventually the program could be set up like the American Tree farm System, where volunteers around the country (Permie Forum Staff) inspect a farm for Permie Compliance. The individual farm would then be Certified under Pep 1/2/3/4 so that any potential buyer would know the property had achieved certain stages of Permieness, allowing them to include or rule out, potential properties before leaving their own home. To wit: if a buyer wanted only a farm that was at Pep 3, the beginning work done, but not a lot of Permie work done, then a simple search would show what properties had met that criteria. Of course the fairness comes in for the seller whom has done the work, so being Pep 2 instead of Pep 1 means they can sell the property at a higher price. The same for Pep 3 and Pep 4 of course. The farm even gets a nifty Certified Permicultural Farm sign to put up.

But unlike the American Tree Farm System, I would not stop there, I would include in the database another other possibility. Right now, as an American Tree Farm I get swamped with letters asking if I want loggers to cut my land. This gets kind of annoying, so I would have a database where the Certified Permie Farm could check a status box that says sell or not. This is like a marriage of the American Tree Farm System and Make-Me-Move App where with the latter entity, a homeowner lists their house for a high selling price, not really wanting to move, but willing too if a certain price is met. In that way, if a potential buyer is looking at the Certified Permie Farms and likes a particular farm because of the pictures of the farm posted on the Certified permie Farm website, they can see if the owner would sell at a high price, would never sell, or wants to sell.

Because each Certified Permie Farm is an accomplishment, each farm would have ample space dedicated to it on the database. Who does not like pictures of their farm? Pictures of the owner. Pictures of views. Pictures of abundant harvests, etc. But also detailed descriptions of progress, harvests, and plans! For example: Johnson farm: A Certified Permicultural Farm. Then on that page the who, what, when, where, why;s are all answered, like pictures of us as a family, pictures of our farm, our farm philosphy, etc. It can be as sharing or as reclusive as the farm owners want.

For all this, Paul (assuming he would run the certification and database) would get a small certification fee, and an small annual fee for maintaining the Permie Farm Certification database and process.

Does this put food on the table, conserve electricity or make our bodies healthier? Nope, but it sets a stanadrd, and from that an increased value can placed upon the hard work accomplished and documented. When a realator comes in and sees a litany of apple trees in the back yard, they see a lawn that is hard to mow, where as a Certified Permicultural Sign would give what the owner is doing, some credentials.

Dillon Nichols wrote:
Digging holes specifically to get a badge strikes me as not very permie... perhap the site does not need holes. Perhaps it needs a ditch, or a foundation, or one enormous hole... I've got a few tens of hours in my excavator so far and have never yet operated it while other people are available as it's a one person job...

Perhaps some more flexibility in this scheme would be beneficial?

I've really only been looking at the sand and straw badge levels, but one of the things I like is that one usually gets something neat and relatively useful out of the deal--a spoon, a mallet, a sign, a birdhouse, pealed log, a mulched garden, a small deck, etc. I can say that, as a teacher, it's HARD to find ways to teach people and have them have something physical after ward. Just think of most of your schooling--you probably just got an essay or a graded test out of what you learned. Whereas here, there's almost always actual artifacts.

Maybe you don't need holes, but your neighbor does? Maybe you can convince us that you actually already dug a bunch of holes. But, for someone who's never made a deck or carved a spoon or dug a hole, it's an excellent learning experience. I rather want to get the roundwood woodworking badge because I WANT to learn to carve, and someone already found the youtube videos to teach me how, and I get cool things out of it, and I'd get a badge under my name. I kind of want at least one badge!

I think what we have is the dilemma between someone who's NEVER felled a tree or dug a fence post hole, vs someone who's done 100. Someone who'd never felled a tree probably is going to want someone there to watch them to make sure they don't kill themselves (I know I would!) and that other person could be taking the pictures.

Hopefully we can find a way to prove that someone who's experienced has already learned those things, has actually learned them. BUt, it IS hard to be retroactively get certified in most fields, and that's because it is hard to show that someone had already learned these thing.

"Maybe you can convince us that you actually already dug a bunch of holes."

This strikes me as a lot more practical *for people who already own land*. It also dovetails nicely with Travis's post where he's describing the benefits of certifying the land instead of the person.

Like hell I'm going to take a million specific progress pictures.. but if the certification carried value, in terms of increasing what people would pay for farm products, or for the property, that would be a different angle. I could show satellite pics of what this place looked like last year, and over time. I could also run around with a video camera and roughly document several years work in a 30 minute sprint..

Permaculture is currently a real joke in this regard.. a lot of farms throw the word around very casually, without any apparent distinguishing features. Often they have planted a 'food forest', aka a small mixed orchard with lip service paid to a shrub layer.


The obvious catch is that one certification standard is a poor fit for both people and land in some ways. To certify land, it doesn't matter who did the work. In my case it's me, 99% of the time; 6 months in, I have yet to hire out any labour at all.

My neighbour works full time and has 3 kids. He's hired out a lot of labour, and will continue to do so. Aside from personal satisfaction and the part where I can't afford to do so, I don't see any problem with this.. the design and the progress will not notice who did the walking, long as it's done well.

I'm thinking, from what I've heard Paul say, that the PEP is more for certifying people than farms. It could probably be applied to the latter, though!

He once mentioned that there's a lot of people looking to pass along their farms to the next generation...but the people they  find aren't skilled in tasks people 50 years ago would have known--like how to cut and stack wood, let alone more advanced homesteading techniques.

THe PEP is a way for the inexperienced people to (1) Learn those valuable skills, for free!; and, (2) TO have a way to show others that they do, indeed, know this stuff. So, someone who's looking to gift their land, or hire someone, or something, can look at the person's badges and badge bits and know a bit more about their qualifications.

Personally, I LOVE the educational aspect of this. I remember when I started out, I knew so little, and so little that I didn't even know where to start. I've never built ANYTHING woodworking-wise by myself. I don't have any of the rudimentary skills, nor even know what those skills would be that I'd need to learn. This give people a framework for how to navigate and learn these skills, for FREE and at their own pace. I honestly think that's freakin' awesome. I love that permies is a place where we can share knowledge and learn, for free. It really makes the world a better place, and I think the PEP is a beautiful extension of that.

I think the PEP program is not perfect and it is not for everyone.   It is also not designed to be THE permaculture thing.    It is designed to be an experiment - to be A permaculture thing.

At the moment, as we are attempting to flesh out this idea, I think the best feedback is about how make it awesome.   Suggestions about making something different might be better after we are done getting this idea put together and trying it out a bit.  

Personally, I think that this idea has the potential to be more popular than the PDC.  And if Bill Mollison were alive today, I think he would spend 80 hours a week helping me flesh it out and then start on PEB.

I also think that permaculture has a bit of a reputation for being a bit too dreamy.  I think that this will give permaculture a lot of grit.

I also think that the general design leans heavily on the tools we have available today:  the internet and phones with cameras.  Plus mountains of photos, blogs, articles and youtube videos.  We can do all of this as a free thing, and we can do all of it as formal course, and there are a thousand variations in between.

---

I like the idea that if you whittle up a mallet and a spoon, you can now take on a stool.  And then a sawbuck.  Then a shaving horse and then a crappy chair.  And then a pretty nice chair ...

You can be working on some crappy job somewhere, carefully getting yourself out of debt and your garage is filling up with the things that you will take to your new gert-i-tude plot.  And, more importantly, you have the foundational skills to really pull it off.   Or, maybe you will complete PEP4 and leave your crappy job to move onto a free 200 acre plot complete with a house, a barn, a tractor, a pickup and a pile of free coin.  

google wrote:The number of students projected to attend American colleges and universities in fall 2018 is 19.9 million

Can we get a dozen people to shoot for PEP4?  

I think that there is a self reinforcing point of momentum for something like this... a point at which the exposure reaches some critical mass and it takes off.

The more broadly applicable the thing is, the more likely it hits critical mass...? Unless it gets too cumbersome..


I can see that the step by step nature is a real boon to people at the bottom of the staircase. Especially with things where you are literally building tools to help you with later projects.


I am not clear on how linear the structure is meant to be, though.

If you happen to be halfway up the staircase, can you document making your good chair, and consider this as inherent proof you could make the crappy chair, etc?

paul wheaton wrote:A formal PEP1 program would last 2 weeks (~80 hours).  Completing the PEP1 program requires 16 sand badges.

I'm wondering if the number of badges has changed for PEP1, or if you pick and choose your badges. I count 28 possible badges. I'm making an excel spreadsheet for myself, a check list. Maybe that's already around and I've missed it - I'm not here as much as I'd like! (Oh, and I just saw the animal care sand badges, which aren't included on this ...)

I'm wondering if the number of badges has changed for PEP1, or if you pick and choose your badges. I count 28 possible badges.  

There are 22 badges.  You need to complete any 16 sand badges to get PEP1.

I suspect that the first few days will be attempting stuff in groups.   And then there will be a lot of people finishing up in the evenings.   Toward the end it will just be a lot of people trying to finish up, and less group stuff.

There are a few threads in this forum that may look like badges but they are from brainstorming a few years ago and are not actually a part of the PEP program. Is that maybe how you got 28?

For the official list:

https://permies.com/wiki/96022/aspects-PEP

Shawn Klassen-Koop wrote:There are a few threads in this forum that may look like badges but they are from brainstorming a few years ago and are not actually a part of the PEP program. Is that maybe how you got 28?

That's probably it, Shawn. Thanks for the link! Off to re-vamp my spreadsheet.

It seems like a lot of people are concerned with the merits of completing the different levels.  I just thought it sounded like fun, so I'm going to work on a couple of the things with that in mind.  I need to cut a few trees anyway, I can't see why I wouldn't take a couple of pictures.  I also agree strongly with what Nicole said.  It's a great way to pick up some new skills with a simple logical progression.  I've never carved a spoon.  Ah, but I will...

We recently finished our first ever PEP1 event.  We provided some teaching and lots of tools and, of course, the PEP framework.  

To carve a club style mallet took robbie the better part of a day.   It took mike a half hour.   Caleb Larson says he has made so many it takes him about seven minutes.

Three log benches are about one to three hours - but some folks ended up exceeding a day.  Mike Newby created about six while he was here and says they take him about 20 minutes each.

I know that two guys that grew up around firewood can harvest, split and stack 2 cords of firewood in less than 8 hours.  But last year I put three boots on it and after 2 days they had a third of a cord of firewood.

For the style of event we had here, I think that people were of the mindset that it would take 4 weeks to get PEP1 certified.   And you would probably have completed a few BBs for a few other badges too.  So I think that over time, we can refine the course to the point that if 20 students complete a dozen BBs before they arrive, then 10 students will complete PEP1 by the end of 14 days.  But that is with a very polished program, multiple instructors, provided meals, etc.  I think we are a long ways from that now.


There was some sentiment that there is no way a badge can be completed in 5 hours.   And I watched as a lot of these people insisted on carving spoons from dry wood - instead of green wood.  Dry wood is going to take about 8 times longer.   I think that if there was an instructor and a standing tree (or maybe serviceberry shrub) and they harvested the green wood and immediately the class set to carving spoons and the instructor went to each student to guide them on how they can improve their technique ...    


Further, I think that if there are five instructors that have each taught a dozen PEP1 certification courses and exactly one relatively industrious student, then I think that one student can complete the full PEP1 course in 14 days.


Some of the PEP1 students that were here were talking about how we should remove the mention of "5 hours" for a badge.   They felt it was disheartening/discouraging.   I agree with their analysis.   And after further reflection, I think I need to leave that up there.   And the thing I need to say is that if you come to a professional course and it takes more than 5 hours for all students, then there is probably room for improvement for the course.    That said, there are two caveats:

  - I do think that there are a few badges where we intentionally put in more than 5 hours of stuff - for reasons

  - a lot of BBs are based on total experience time, not on "total calendar time".   Firing up a rocket mass heater and running it for an hour has, maybe, ten minutes of experience, but takes an hour in "calendar time".  You could be working on your spoon while the fire is going.


I guess this is a long-winded way of saying:  let's stay the course for now.
 

So maybe I missed the idea I'm about to post but I really like this brain child of mine so I'll trot it out.

PEP badges COULD, in addition to training a skill, have a velocity to them.

....now how to explain velocity???
In Tom Brown Jr's classes, you make tools and items for living a nomadic life: flint knapping, making cordage, an emergency shelter, a fire bow, animal traps, father son bow, clay pot.....and you do it in the order of finding/creating the scared four: shelter; water; fire; food.

->no knife? -> find stone tools to create emergency shelter -> erect emergency shelter with in 50' of a source of water (now you won't freeze or dehydrate) -> make a fire bow -> make a fire (now you can be comfortable and make tools) -> make traps -> set traps -> make arrows to dry and straighten -> make father son bow -> check traps -> go hunt

this is velocity needed to keep alive (it has a direction towards survival and each stage makes survival more likely and more enjoyable).

having defined velocity in the context of nomadic survival, let's look at permaculture and the PEP badges:
-what needs to happen first ( I suggest the sacred four order: shelter, water, fire, food)???
   *read the land, find where the water runs, where you can make shelter, where the edible native plants are, where you can get dry wood, where you can get wood for your temporary lean to wofati, where your composting toilet is going to be, where your temporary lorenz style cook stove will go, where your shower bag is going to hang, where the clay kiln is going to be
-have them use a bow saw to harvest wood to do the next four items
-teach them how to make a mallet,
-teach them how to make wooden dowels and notch them to be driven by the mallet into round wood joints
-teach round pole joints on small lean to wofatis (now a person won't freeze and they'll know the basics of round wood shaping)
- teach them how to make a wooden spoon and a wooden bowl (which by the way can be done with hot glowing coals in dry wood instead of carving tools)
- make a 10 to 100 gallon pond and seal it
-use a shovel to guide water to and from it and other hollow depressions

Now the person won't freeze, have some wild plants to eat, know where to shit/build new soil, have an idea of how to build a tool, how to build with round wood and will have a bit of extra water around when it rains

yes, I know we have access to chainsaws, and believe me I'll use electric chainsaw instead of a bow saw.....

However; in this manner, this gives the person's inner animal the confidence "hey, I know how to do this...I won't freeze, I won't die if I leave my apartment and the system which demands I have an apartment"  ....and no one can say, "yes, but in my country, we do not have rebar that is easily obtained to drive into our wooden joints, we do not have x nor y nor z".  

If this is too primitive, okay, but still build velocity into the PEP badges so that they build on each other in a way that builds the necessities needed to sustain life and make it more comfortable as each badge is obtained.

Give points for doing the badges in an order that when completed in that order teaches the person that their work is cumulative towards basic working systems which build and support life.

Atleast come up with a list people should do on a property with in the first 30 days and the skills needed to create those things......with this then create the pep system to support the concept of a direction and speed needed for life.

I wish to take a moment to contemplate a badge beyond iron.

Currently, iron badge represents about six months of experience.  

In theory, the next level of badge represents about six years worth.   But this would need to be stuff that involves innovation, writing books, and changing the world for the better.  All in one of the aspects.

So, if Joel Salatin ever stops by, we would want to give him the _______ badge for animal care.  

What do we call that badge?

The "supreme innovator" badge?

Ideas?

paul wheaton wrote:
What do we call that badge?

The "supreme innovator" badge?

Ideas?

the god badge!

sand -> straw -> wood -> iron -> gold or platinum or diamond

SLP - Superior Leadership in Permaculture?

The "global leader" badge?

I am glad I found this page because it answered a bunch of my questions. I do not know how I reached it because I did a bunch of searches and it did not show up. Then my computer did a strange "jump" and I was at this page. I do not know if the search fairies will be able to help me again.

The SKIP book says that at permies.com there are webpages for each of the sections that list the badges and badge bits but I cannot find this from the home page. Even clicking on "education", which seems like the intuitive route, does not lead to the webpages. Typing the names in the search bar yields many, sometimes conflicting pages.

The book says the requirements for the badges are subject to change. So how do I tell the most current requirements?

There is a mention that to advance, you much mentor or grade other badge bits but I do not see how to do this. Is this also a requirement of the program and, if so, how many are expected and how are the people who do the approving process supervised?

I am also thinking, based on this system, someone could do the program in reverse. For example, I run multiple busineses. With a few months of effort, I could do all the levels of Commerce sand badge through iron badge at the same time. The lists do not say how long you have to earn a specific income but I will assume over 6 to 12 months. I think I could sustain 6 income streams at $2000/month plus (iron) plus earn $20,000 selling recycled goods or training modules  (wood) plus have  2 other income streams bringing in $20 per month, getting $500 working over the Internet, sell $200 in goods and provide a homestead service for $500 (straw) and similar for the sand badge. I am talking about doing each items separately, not overlapping them. So would it be OK to simultaneously do all these instead of working through PEP1 then PEP2 then PEP3 where the first Iron badge is mentioned?  Could someone theortcially complete the program in reverse by doing 3 iron badges first, then back through the lower badges?

I appreciate any comments about my questions

Hi Ann, the link I use to get into all the badges the quickest is this one: https://permies.com/f/178/
At the top (at least on desktop view) are icons for each badge that you can click on to drill down into each badge.

When you clicked on Education, was the button below it called Skip?  It is on my computer and that would probably get you where you want to go.

Yes, you can work your way down a badge.  BUT, you need to get the sand badge before you can earn the straw, and so on for wood and iron.  You can complete all the Iron, Wood and Straw BBs and then when you get Sand, you can apply for all of them right away.  You can also just do commerce and get all those badges and then work on another one.  No issues there and no need to just get the PEP1 requirements done before starting on the PEP2 ones.  

The part where you approve stuff for others will come along once you get your first sand badge.  It's pretty easy and I'd cross that bridge when you get there.

Ann Soco wrote:I am glad I found this page because it answered a bunch of my questions. I do not know how I reached it because I did a bunch of searches and it did not show up. Then my computer did a strange "jump" and I was at this page. I do not know if the search fairies will be able to help me again.

The SKIP book says that at permies.com there are webpages for each of the sections that list the badges and badge bits but I cannot find this from the home page. Even clicking on "education", which seems like the intuitive route, does not lead to the webpages. Typing the names in the search bar yields many, sometimes conflicting pages.

Mike Haasl wrote:Hi Ann, the link I use to get into all the badges the quickest is this one: https://permies.com/f/178/
At the top (at least on desktop view) are icons for each badge that you can click on to drill down into each badge.

Another place with links to everything is this page: All About SKIP, PEP, BBs, etc. In the section called, "The 22 PEP Badges," you'll see a list of all 22 badge aspects--each of the badge icons and the words are hyperlinks that take you to the badge.

Ann Soco wrote:The book says the requirements for the badges are subject to change. So how do I tell the most current requirements?

The most current requirements are the ones on the badge and badge bit (BB) pages/threads. So, what you're reading is the most updated! (I'm thinking it was worded like that so that people would look here on permies, rather than relying on the book. It's easier to update a website like permies, than a book!)

Mike H,
I admit that I see the "All About SKIP...." now that it is pointed out to me. There is just such a flood of information on the page that comes up, I didn't sort it all out.
Thanks for the comments.

I've been on and off looking through the lists, especially as they get more polished and field tested.

This program is becoming more and more robust.

A person with PEP1 knows a lot of shit and has shown that they have done a lot of shit. It's recorded, here on permies.

There isn't anyone with PEP2 yet, but I can already see some people on their way to it. I would hire someone with PEP2 for a very good amount of money to do agile work, not just labor, but organization, planning, and design. I think in conjunction with a PDC that is a powerful show of ability.

But I think the original intent, showing you're worthy of inheriting land is still where this program shines the most. Someone with PEP4 has shown they can do basically ANYTHING that needs to be done on a homestead, small holding, or small farm, and not only that but can organize a community around it, hopefully preserving and expanding that land for future generations as well.