Permies is awesome!!!
-Kat Z
~
Composting speaks to my need for resourcefulness, making something out of nothing.
List of Bryant RedHawk's Epic Soil Series Threads We love visitors, that's why we live in a secluded cabin deep in the woods. "Buzzard's Roost (Asnikiye Heca) Farm." Promoting permaculture to save our planet.
Permies is awesome!!!
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
Permies is awesome!!!
Permies is awesome!!!
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein
Idle dreamer
Ben Waimata wrote:I am from another country and do not know the local scene, but I wonder, is there valid reason to suggest the open praire subject to fire and bison graze is really the optimal ecology for the zone?
Idle dreamer
Tyler Ludens wrote:
Ben Waimata wrote:I am from another country and do not know the local scene, but I wonder, is there valid reason to suggest the open praire subject to fire and bison graze is really the optimal ecology for the zone?
The North American Prairie ecosystem was the most productive ecosystem on Earth next to the Tropical Rain Forest, so I think it might be a challenge to come up with a system which is more productive in this region. I think it is a worthy goal for humans to develop more productive sustainable systems, and I think we can learn a lot from previous and existing models.
Idle dreamer
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
"The rule of no realm is mine. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, these are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail in my task if anything that passes through this night can still grow fairer or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I too am a steward. Did you not know?" Gandolf
Marco Banks wrote: But in your case, zone 5 would be a prairie ecosystem.
Idle dreamer
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
My opinions are barely worth the paper they are written on here, but hopefully they can spark some new ideas, or at least a different train of thought
Come join me at www.peacockorchard.com
elle sagenev wrote: I want trees though. I want shade.
Idle dreamer
Tyler Ludens wrote:
Marco Banks wrote: But in your case, zone 5 would be a prairie ecosystem.
It would only be prairie if the elements of prairie were restored - fire and bison. Otherwise it will naturally become forest. Our land, once Tallgrass Prairie, is now almost entirely covered with forest. The management needed to return the land to prairie would eliminate the possibility of it being actual Zone 5. There are people who believe that the grazing behavior of domestic cattle is sufficiently different from that of bison for the two species to not be considered interchangeable.
Example reference: http://www.bioone.org/doi/10.2111/REM-D-12-00113.1
The presence of domestic grazing animals on land would make it by definition not Zone 5 in Mollisonian permaculture.
"The rule of no realm is mine. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, these are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail in my task if anything that passes through this night can still grow fairer or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I too am a steward. Did you not know?" Gandolf
Moderator, Treatment Free Beekeepers group on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/treatmentfreebeekeepers/
Michael Cox wrote:First and foremost, permaculture is an agricultural system. The intention is to provide for people first and foremost
Idle dreamer
My opinions are barely worth the paper they are written on here, but hopefully they can spark some new ideas, or at least a different train of thought
Tyler Ludens wrote:
Marco Banks wrote: But in your case, zone 5 would be a prairie ecosystem.
It would only be prairie if the elements of prairie were restored - fire and bison. Otherwise it will naturally become forest. Our land, once Tallgrass Prairie, is now almost entirely covered with forest. The management needed to return the land to prairie would eliminate the possibility of it being actual Zone 5. There are people who believe that the grazing behavior of domestic cattle is sufficiently different from that of bison for the two species to not be considered interchangeable.
Example reference: http://www.bioone.org/doi/10.2111/REM-D-12-00113.1
The presence of domestic grazing animals on land would make it by definition not Zone 5 in Mollisonian permaculture.
Idle dreamer
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
In my opinion, the purpose/intent of permaculture is growing food.
Idle dreamer
Phil Stevens wrote:
Tyler Ludens wrote:
Marco Banks wrote: But in your case, zone 5 would be a prairie ecosystem.
It would only be prairie if the elements of prairie were restored - fire and bison. Otherwise it will naturally become forest. Our land, once Tallgrass Prairie, is now almost entirely covered with forest. The management needed to return the land to prairie would eliminate the possibility of it being actual Zone 5. There are people who believe that the grazing behavior of domestic cattle is sufficiently different from that of bison for the two species to not be considered interchangeable.
Example reference: http://www.bioone.org/doi/10.2111/REM-D-12-00113.1
The presence of domestic grazing animals on land would make it by definition not Zone 5 in Mollisonian permaculture.
Tyler, you raise a couple of great points. However, west of the 100th meridian, undisturbed prairie would turn more into scrubland/savanna than forest, and from Kansas southward there would be a lot of cactus and yucca in that scrub. Especially as the climate warms and that region dries out to become the Great American Desert after all.
Also. you point out that massive herds of grazing animals were an integral part of the prairie in its precolonial state. I'd say that qualifies a mob (even a domestic one) as part of zone 5 by function if managed in a way that produces similar effects. I guess we have to admit that we're only working with certain features and we probably won't teach cattle to make wallows. Maybe run some hogs around as well?
Come join me at www.peacockorchard.com
elle sagenev wrote:yup. In Wyoming the mountains have trees, the rivers have trees and everywhere else there are trees, people did it.
Joseph Lofthouse wrote:
elle sagenev wrote:yup. In Wyoming the mountains have trees, the rivers have trees and everywhere else there are trees, people did it.
When I was a child, I planted about 300 trees with my father into Zone 5. Approximately 10 of them are still alive.
Come join me at www.peacockorchard.com
Phil Stevens wrote:All this is by way of saying that if you're in the Great Plains and you are doing permaculture, you'll probably want to think about how zone 5 relates to what you're doing and put soil creation at the forefront of what you plan to do. Fire just might be off the table unless you've got huge swaths of land and neighbours whose heads are in the same place as yours. Mob grazing is probably one of the best tools in the kit. Perennial grasses are certainly foundational, and there is really interesting work in this area with folks like Wes Jackson. Trees have their part to play, too, and lots of times when we are creating or recreating soil fertility we bring these into the picture even though they aren't dominant in the wild landscape...let's face it, there is almost no virgin prairie left so anything you do at this point is succession planting and not preservation of a climax ecosystem.
Permies is awesome!!!
Permies is awesome!!!
List of Bryant RedHawk's Epic Soil Series Threads We love visitors, that's why we live in a secluded cabin deep in the woods. "Buzzard's Roost (Asnikiye Heca) Farm." Promoting permaculture to save our planet.
Time is mother nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once. And this is a tiny ad:
3d Plans - Rocket Cooktop with Lorena Option
https://permies.com/t/193727/Plans-Rocket-Cooktop-Lorena-Option
|