• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • r ranson
  • Anne Miller
  • paul wheaton
  • Joseph Lofthouse
stewards:
  • Mike Jay
  • Jocelyn Campbell
  • Devaka Cooray
garden masters:
  • Steve Thorn
  • Dave Burton
  • Dan Boone
gardeners:
  • Joylynn Hardesty
  • Mandy Launchbury-Rainey
  • Mike Barkley

thoughts on grafting

 
master steward
Posts: 15055
Location: Left Coast Canada
3353
books chicken cooking fiber arts sheep writing
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
People tell me that grafting is difficult.  They a very low success rate is common - like less than fifty per cent.  I haven't noticed either of these things when I graft.  So I've been wondering what am I doing differently?

One thing I noticed is the roots have a lot of influence on the graft.  If I graft onto a tree in a pot, then I have a low success rate.  If I graft onto a tree that has been transplanted within the last 12 months, the success rate is quite low too.  

But if I have a tree I planted a few years ago and ignored, then the root system is very strong.  The graft takes 90 to 100% of the time.  The older the tree, the larger the root system, the higher the success rate and the faster the graft grows.  The best grafts we've done here on the farm have been on a 40-year-old plum tree that the logger cut down (because it looks just like a douglas fir?  at least that was his excuse).  We took the branches he cut down and grafted them onto the stump.  Five years later, the tree was larger than was at 40 years old.  

I'm also a big fan of discovering what kind of fruit a tree produces before I graft on to it.  Just in case it is some sort of amazing deliciousness.  

That's my theory - get the plant in place and the roots well established first - then graft.  

well, my theory of the moment.  Things may change with experience.  But it's given me some ideas on experiments I can conduct.  
 
gardener
Posts: 5937
Location: Vilonia, Arkansas - Zone 7B/8A stoney, sandy loam soil pH 6.5
885
hugelkultur dog forest garden duck fish fungi hunting books chicken pig homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
My own results mirror yours R, I like to use a well established root stock.
The only time I graft to containerized rootstock is when doing bud grafts, but then I also make sure the soil in the container has mycorrhizae working with the root system before I do the bud grafts.
My feeling is that if there is adequate sap flow, the graft will take easily, if there isn't enough sap flow, the graft will probably fail.

(most people will buy their root stock and graft fairly quickly, that is probably why they don't have high success rates)
The commercial tree nursery I worked at always had rows of in the ground rootstock that were being planted, two years later those would be grafted to, but the top wasn't cut off until that fall, I think that was the main reason most of our grafts took.

Redhawk
 
pollinator
Posts: 623
Location: Western Washington
158
duck forest garden personal care rabbit bee homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This is really interesting. I'm hoping to graft some apple trees this next year. Do the two of you think it would be better to plant the rootstocks and let them grow for a few years first? I'm going to be grafting apples onto pacific crabapple to increase the wetness tolerance.
 
r ranson
master steward
Posts: 15055
Location: Left Coast Canada
3353
books chicken cooking fiber arts sheep writing
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
do you have enough that you can experiment?  Do half as you plan, and plant the other half and wait a year.  
 
James Landreth
pollinator
Posts: 623
Location: Western Washington
158
duck forest garden personal care rabbit bee homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I can experiment, for sure. I'm doing about twenty or twenty five of them
 
pollinator
Posts: 214
Location: Australia, Canberra
69
dog forest garden fish books bee
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
My experience is the cultivar selection. My easy grafts are on apple to apple and pear to pear. These are seedlings I've grown and grafted later on. I left an original branch from the bottom just in case I may hit a chance seedling with a nice fruit.

I grafted a cherry bud on a wild plum. This has grown really large but broken at a hail storm.

Guerilla grafts I made are growing stronger than the other grafts as there is a wild established root system on those root stocks. I might even get some pears from these soon. This proves OP's theory. As there is an already established root system, scions are getting much more nutrients and growing vigorously.

The seedlings on larger pots are growing better too. Actually if I had the space, I would like to dig a trench and grow the seedlings there.

Out of 40-50 grafts I made so far, only 2-3 failed but these are mostly apple, pear, plum graft. I would say they are easy.

Peach, apricot grafts never worked for me.

This winter, I will be doing more grafts as I have 2 years old seedlings.

 
gardener
Posts: 2602
163
forest garden fungi trees books food preservation bike
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This is quite typical. After practice, you should get at least 80% take on your apples and pears.  There are many details, r, and it sounds like you are paying attention to them.

Peaches and nectarines (Stone fruits in general) are trees that have very thin skin, so they are normally bud grafted in the summer.

I and many others will graft a tree but leave a branch of a seedling to see how it turns out. It takes many years longer to find out, and you usually don't get something as good, in my experience.  But it's part of the adventure.

Grafting is particularly helpful for people with limited space: you can get 5- 10 varieties for each of your trees. They pollinate each other, and spread the season out and the diversity of flavors.  It's also quite useful for people who are on the older side, which in my experience, is most property owners, with the current housing price escalation.  Contrary to popular belief, you can move your grafted trees when you move. It's easier if they are dwarf trees, and you are moving in the Spring or the Fall.

John S
PDX OR
 
Posts: 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
My grafting experiment began this march.  Apple scions onto 3/16-1/4" seedlings in 2 gallon pots.  whip and tongue with a knife.  The 3/16 size was hard to work with, but was mostly successful at just below 90%.    The next batch was on two top worked  8yr old box store trees that never produced well   41 rind  or bark grafts  with 8 failures.   Three of the failures were due to my rookie knife skills coupled with poor placement. two were possibly due to suspect scions.   in any case 80%. The grafts that "took" on these top worked branches showed by far the most vigorous growth of all the grafts, including the diameter and the vigor of the shoots. I have learned that 4-5 " shoots may seem viable, but they are being nourished from the scion only (and eventually fail), and not through the graft. When they grow to about 6" and beyond they are then usually successful grafts.  A few weeks into the experiment I then purchased some Antonovka rootstock (75) about 1/4 " diameter to take advantage of the 17 varieties of scion wood gifted to me.  I'm still clearing the land for my future orchard site, so these were grafted and potted in two batches in 2 gallon pots  The first 30  had three failures  so 90%.  The next 35 had one failure. 5 of these were not grafted but left to produce variety #18 (antonovka). looks like 96%  on the second 30 grafts. The second 30 were dusted  on the bare roots with a Mychorrizal (4 type) formula.  These were clearly the most vigorous of the potted grafts, so I would definitely dust all bare rootstocks in the future.  On the Antonovka grafts I found and used a 15.00 grafting tool using modified (U) cut.   The grafting tools I had found on various sites were priced from 70-150.00 for what seemed to be the same tool as what was purchased. It produced clean cuts , had three cutter types, and has now produced 70+ grafts, and could be rotated to a second cutting edge on each blade, or resharpened when that became necessary.  found on T mart site. I was willing to spend .20 per graft for the 15.00 cutter  but the 2.00 per graft for the 150.00 unit was not in my budget. Having said that, the results have been so encouraging, and the process enjoyable that I can see this becoming a possible revenue source as my skills develop. This inexpensive (cheap) tool could easily produce hundreds of grafts lowering the cost per graft to pennies.   If the neem oil continues to repel the hungry aphids drinking from all the new and tender leaves, there may be a picture of an orchard to post in a few years.  Thank you shout out to the many who share their experiences and expertise on this site.
 
The knights of nee want a shrubbery. And a tiny ad:
Rocket Oven – is it Right for You? Here’s What You Need to Know
https://permies.com/t/99726/rocket-ovens/Introduction-rocket-ovens-build
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!