Joel Salatin And The Profitable Permaculture

I'm interested in the topic of the business of farming, and I want to get some advice from someone who has been successful. I'd like your advice on good people to read up on.

<B>Mark Shepherd</B>

I'm a huge fan of Mark Shepherd, and every time he opens his mouth I'm overwhelmed by the commonsense pouring out of it. He's got a lot of great views on farming and business. I've read an interview about him on Permaculture Institute Australia site, and seen one video. Has he written anything?

<B>Joel Salatin</B>

I've heard many permaculturists talking about Joel Salatin, who is noted for his business savvy as well as his ecological stewardship.

However, my understanding is that Salatin's business focuses on animal food production, which I want nothing to do with. I don't mind giving animals a home and using them to better my farm/ecosystem, but I don't eat them or their byproducts and have no interest in the mess involved in helping others do so.

So I'm curious to know if any of Joel's books will be of use to someone who is interested in making money from fruits, vegetables, nuts, wood, and other harvested commodities.

<B>Others:</B>

Who else should I be aware of? Any great business angle permaculture voices I'm missing?

David Blume.
Eliot Coleman (not "permaculture" but must-read if you want to market garden organically.)
Darren Doherty (fairly business oriented, more forestry and broadacre design than veggies though.)

Yes, that Mark Shepard article is very good.

You're asking the right question. Be very wary of advice from people who dismiss or downplay economic considerations.

Joel Salatin is best known for his profitable animal production, but his genius is in marketing, not the product.  A good read, from a business point of view, regardless if you are growing cattle or lettuce.

And by-the-way, to use BBC code, use [], [/] not <>, </> (hopefully, that will "print".)

EDITed to add:  Yippee!  It printed.  (I didn't confuse the software.)

I agree with Leucaena about Eliot Coleman.  I have learned much from him.  I cannot grow enough tomatoes to keep 3 restaurants happy.  They are always happy when I show up with my harvest and buy all that I have most of the time.  I never chill my tomatoes and deliver them within 24 hours of harvest.  It isn't a living but every bit of income helps.  I do get an amazingly huge harvest from 10 - 5 gallon plastic buckets.  I would grow more but I do not have room.  I live in a mobile home park and my lot is tiny.  I farm vertically out of necessity.

I too would say that Salatin's success is in his direct marketing to end users and his outspoke views on food safety, and the value of quality.
kent

I would add that we all need to understand that there is no "right" way for everybody. Joel's stuff works well for him. Could he do it better? Probably. But what he has works well for him.

Design your own system that works for you and what you want to accomplish. Joel has pasture land. Grow an orchard instead, or a multi-level food forest.

John, do you have a specific suggestion for which of his books to start with?

John Polk wrote:
Joel Salatin is best known for his profitable animal production, but his genius is in marketing, not the product.  A good read, from a business point of view, regardless if you are growing cattle or lettuce.

And by-the-way, to use BBC code, use [], [/] not <>, </> (hopefully, that will "print".)

EDITed to add:  Yippee!  It printed.  (I didn't confuse the software.)

"Pastured Poultry Profits" is a classic for portable shed chicken production, and
"Salad Bar Beef" covers rotational grazing of cattle.

As I stated earlier, his key to success has been his ability to sell his product (directly to the consumer, and at prices above market).  Anybody can raise a chicken or cow, but not everybody can have the consumers clamoring to buy it at premium prices.

Also, not every region of the country is suitable for that business model.  If you are surrounded by wealthy yuppies, it will probably work.  If you are entrenched in a depressed region, people will be looking for the $1.29/pound chicken at WallyWorld before they look at your $5/pound birds.  His approach requires a population that is both able, AND willing to pay premium prices for premium product.  That does not exist everywhere.

The closest place to Poly Face Farm with "wealthy yuppies" is Charlotteville Va. and that is 50 miles.  Joel is not really close to any other city of size.  Richmond is a farther and DC is 150 miles.  He has done really well developing his clientele.

Joel was keynote speaker at our long island small farm summit  earlier this year...
someone remarked to me that he does have to import some kind of feed so its not entirely permaculture nor sustainable

i do not know if this is true and i dont want to state as fact  anything thats not ,

i also love elliots videos. i wish i could get copies of all his old episodes from his show Gardening Naturally with his wife..it was a great show!

another important point for the veg's among us  is that ORGANIC does not equal VEGANIC... its not permaculture nor cruelty-free as they still bring in blood meal and bone meal for fertilizers.

I have driven by Poly Face farm but have never had the opportunity to meet Joel.  I only know what I have read in articles and his books. 

tribalwind wrote:
another important point for the veg's among us  is that ORGANIC does not equal VEGANIC... its not permaculture nor cruelty-free as they still bring in blood meal and bone meal for fertilizers.

Just wanted to add a bit to your statement. Some of the most efficient and self sufficient farmers around are organic (certified or not), however some of the least efficient and input reliant are organic farmers. It depends on the system. I know of some very large scale organic producers that are far from sustainable. Maybe they truck in fish meal from the pacific North West, or kelp from the coast, or other inputs that are neither self produced nor locally sourced.

I also know of other operations that use few if any purchased inputs. I can attest to the fact that fertilizer is not needed on properly managed pasture ground. It's common for some feed or hay to be purchased, as the required equipment for haying is expensive to maintain for a small herd (not to mention the nutrient loss). Last time we calculated the costs, we couldn't produce hay for the price we could buy (we don't use much). However, if we needed to we could produce enough hay for our use in a sustainable manner.

The heart of the organic movement was carved out when the USDA got heavily involved. USDA organic can often be achieved in an animal enterprise simply by shifting the purchased inputs form conventional to organic-approved, and it has nothing to do with confinement-free nor sustainable. The USDA regulations favor large scale , industrial-transition enterprises. Certification favors economy of scale, as the fees and paperwork are the same for all sizes of producers.

As for the animal welfare side, different producers have different philosophies. Our #1 concern is the welfare of our animals. However some producers over-market their products....."cage free" eggs usually mean they're floor raised in a huge building, not free range. Look for GAP certification on your animal products! It's not just some ag-industry white wash, it's the real deal.

http://www.farmforward.com/features/gap

If you are interested in sustainable growing without any animal inputs and minimizing off-site inputs, take a look at Growing Green by Jenny Hall and Iain Tollhurst. These folks run a stock-free farm in the UK and have created a stock-free certification there. This type of growing has been popping up in the US, Canada, and Europe as well. It is especially attractive to me because it allows the grower not only to get free of using animals at all but really focuses on keeping everything possible produced on site. The book is very dry because it is basically the description of the stock-free rules, but it is very very inspiring to someone who wants to grow without animals and without outside input. I've been gardening organically for almost 30 years, but this book really convinced me of changing some of the things I took for granted. Check it out:

http://www.chelseagreen.com/bookstore/item/growing_green:paperback

thanks Paracelsus !
stock-free certification. interesting!

Biointensive is also a growing method which does not use domestic animals.

http://growbiointensive.org/

I find it interesting that some seem to think having animals is a bad thing. 

I see it as a rejection to western philosophies and religions.  The 3 major western religions give humans dominion over the animals, whereas the eastern religions tend to put all living creatures on an equal footing.

RusticBohemian wrote:
So I'm curious to know if any of Joel's books will be of use to someone who is interested in making money from fruits, vegetables, nuts, wood, and other harvested commodities.

Probably not - his model is based on grazing animals and birds, raised in a low-input, free range manner. He provides info for pasture fencing and rotation, cattle management, using chickens/turkeys to provide additional ecosystem services, slaughtering, marketing, etc.   For vegans, not much there, at least in the Salatin books I have read.

Here's one pointer that may lead you to resources that fit better with your goals.
http://permavegan.blogspot.com/2011/01/what-is-vegan-or-veganic-permaculture.html

Also, "Living the Good Life" by Helen and Scott Nearing is not permaculture per se, but is one inspiring example of a sane life built on an animal-free diet... especially good for New England/Maritime areas.

Paracelsus wrote:
Check it out:

http://www.chelseagreen.com/bookstore/item/growing_green:paperback

Could you give some hints as to how they're approaching the problem of declining fertility ?
Helen Atthowe mentions the shortage in nitrogen as the biggest problem during one of the podcasts.

Dave Bennett wrote:
I find it interesting that some seem to think having animals is a bad thing. 

I think those tend to be animal rights advocates and/or vegans.

Personally I think it is possible to depend on the help and products of animals and still have great regard for them. 

H Ludi Tyler wrote:
I think those tend to be animal rights advocates and/or vegans.

Personally I think it is possible to depend on the help and products of animals and still have great regard for them. 

I know that was the reasoning but I find it funny because technically "bugs" are animals too.

Dave Bennett wrote:
I know that was the reasoning but I find it funny because technically "bugs" are animals too.

Yep, it's not possible to live without killing some critter or other. 

I think the certification is 'stock free', not 'animal free' or 'bug free'. 

Burra Maluca wrote:
I think the certification is 'stock free', not 'animal free' or 'bug free'. 

I was questioning the reasoning for such a certification.  Why is there a "stock free certification?"  The concept makes little sense to me.

Dave Bennett wrote:
I was questioning the reasoning for such a certification.  Why is there a "stock free certification?"  The concept makes little sense to me.

Really hard-core vegans prefer their food is grown without the use of animal products.  This certification gives them that assurance.

I think permaculture can embrace both vegans and non vegans, and I'm sure this isn't the place for yet another veggie/non-veggie argument. 

Can everyone just state their case, avoid getting into arguments, and remember that there is more than one valid view so there's no point bashing everyone else to reach 'the truth'.  Also please double check all posts to make sure it passes Paul's 'be nice' policy.

IMO, stock-free has the side benefit for people (and animals) that it can work well for vegans or vegetarians, but I am interested in it primarily from the perspective of sustainability, esp. cutting outside inputs and embodied work and knowledge as low as possible. I have been trying to do that for the past four years in my garden. I've been organic for almost 30 years and always used composted manure as a top-dressing without even thinking about it. Then with the way things are going in our economy, four years ago I started thinking about what kind of gardening I could without outside inputs, even though already I was not using any synthetics. So I decided to try it and began investigating green manures. I stumbled across that book in my search for knowledge on that score, and I was struck by how apt it felt for sustainability, especially coming at the same time I was reading about the energy consumption embodied in meat animals. I can't employ a lot of their methods, but using white clover and peas as my fert is really working.

I don't usually bring up this issue precisely because instead of looking at the issue itself, people take it as a personal insult, becvome enraged, start sneering about killing insects and talking about their metabolism. That's not productive and it's not to the point. Btw, I am not a vegan. I'm not even a vegetarian, although I avoid eating meat because it is wasteful. But whateverr I am has nothing whatsoever to do with the validity of stock-free growing. That exists separately from me.

Dave Bennett, I gave you the reason why stock-free: sustainability. I cannot see how that is bashing you. I am totally with you on the grains thing, although IMO they are problematic now primarily because of their contamination with GMOs. I ate bread for many years with no problem. It seems way too coincidental that right now all the sudden all these people cannot eat grains and GMOs are contaminating grains and non-organic soy (and now they will be contaminating a lot more, etc).

I have been organic gardening since the 50's.  I have never eaten GMO grains.  That has nothing to do with why I stopped.  I stopped because I developed a blood glucose problem.  Before that I only ate sour dough Rye bread that I baked myself.  The only time I ever used animal manures on my garden was when I was raising livestock.  My statement about grain has more to do with human physiology than GMO's although I do think they are poison. Some of us have physiological problems that just present challenges to our diet.  I tried macrobiotics back in the early 70's.  It doesn't suit me for many reasons but I gave it an entire year.  I then tried an Ovo-Lacto vegetarian diet and that was somewhat better as far as my energy level.  I could not maintain my very high athletic activity while I was vegan.  I lost muscle mass and my energy level dropped.  Now I cannot afford to buy organic food at the grocery store so I raise rabbits and feed them entirely on my foraging around the county.  I am motivated to go out 2 or 3 times a week and harvest fresh food for my animals.  I have access to malted barley because I work once in a while at the local craft brewery and get as much cooked mash as I can carry home.  I dry it out to feed them but last month when I left the farm where I was about to move "permanently" because of some issues I had 3 acres of alfalfa and 2 acres of mixed grasses (orchard/timothy/rye) for feeding my rabbits.  That would easily feed them for a year.  My primary focus for all of my adult years has been on human nutrition.  That has more to do with why I don't eat grains and I do eat meat.  Much of what I learned about gardening was from  "old timers" in  the early 50's and they didn't use fertilizer but they did have compost piles and they all had backyard chickens so some of the soil amendment was composted chicken poop.  In my neighborhood the only people with chickens that bought feed at the GLF (Agway) were the school teachers.  They had smaller gardens than everyone else and no chickens.  My parents were both medical professionals and worked full time so guess who got to tend the garden.
I read Rodale's books back then too.  I drank raw milk too.  In those days industrial farming wasn't affecting the small dairies where I grew up.  It was all small family farms that baled hay all summer long so they had hay for their cows in the winter.  Three seasons those cows were milked and spent the day in a pasture.  Sadly that changed so drastically it disgusts me.  I don't feed my kits because I very carefully researched what breed to choose.  Most rabbit raisers scoff at the breed I raise but they go to slaughter at weaning because they are over 6 lbs. with a very good to excellent meat to bone ratio.  I can't raise anything else as I live in a mobile home park and am not even supposed to have rabbits.  I keep them indoors which increases my maintenance load but except for my labor it is free meat.  Oh yeah I do buy mineral salt for them.  I read Weston A Price's book on nutrition and degenerative disease when I was in college in 1970.  It had a profound effect on my understanding of what really constitutes good healthy eating habits.  The western diet isn't it. LOL

I love the Ecology Action people. http://www.growbiointensive.org/ Their biointensive gardening works really well for me.  I think Joel Salatin has a lot of good information for those wanting to grow anything.  Some of it is just the way he looks at it as a whole is useful and adaptable.  He has quite a few videos on youtube that are worth watching.  This year I did go into chickens, and I have pet rabbits who live in the house and provide me with ample wood chips to use in my compost so I have adapted animals into the system.  The chickens are for eggs, the rabbits are rescue rabbits.

Another thing you might consider is reading Paul Stamets books.  There is some very good info on utilizing edible mushrooms to improve soil content.  Good composting goes a long long way and I have only put manure on my garden once in 8 years until I got the rabbits and didn't notice any decline in production.

I have his books too.  I have most of my Fungi Garden in a closet but have a small sawdust bed out back and one of my compost boxes is full of some variety.  It hasn't fruited yet so I don't really know what floated over there. 

mairghead wrote:
I love the Ecology Action people. http://www.growbiointensive.org/ Their biointensive gardening works really well for me. 

i got most of my seeds from their Bountiful Gardens catalog this year and theyre doing great by all reports (im in bolivia since may so my garden members are keeping the garden now and sharing pics on our facebook page ( www.facebook.com/bogs11510 ) .  i dont know  how free of inputs they are actually,  do the only use green manures ?
personally my only concern with animal inputs is that they be cruelty free..no blood or bone meal... manure could be fine ethically , i wouldnt want any from a beef or dairy farm though....  i'd be happy to keep chickens geese,ducks etc and give them free reign over certain areas,.i've been building rustic birdhouses and sticking them all over the place, i hope to put up maybe 50 or 100,who knows.. when i get home im putting in 2 small ponds that will attract frogs and other animals (all we have in my area are some rabbits,possum,racoon really),maybe i could keep a few fish in them..these are the animal inputs i'm cool with ,if i had acres then any other wild animals in the area would probably be welcome also all things depending...

Not trying to start an argument here, just curious, but there are two statements that have been made on this thread that I don't understand and wonder if someone would be able to explain. 

First, the 'cruelty-free' argument for not using blood meal or bone meal?  People refusing to buy those things isn't going to stop cattle being slaughtered; using them is using things that would otherwise go to waste.  So why not use them?  (I don't buy either, but I have plenty of manure from my animals for my garden.)

Second, someone up there said something about raising animals was wasteful?  How so?  On an industrial scale, I could see that to some extent as some, especially hogs and chickens, are primarily fed grains that people could eat (although a diet high in carbohydrates is very unhealthy for many of us).  But on the small farm scale, animals can and should be fed mostly stuff that people can't or won't eat.  My goats, for example, eat grass, weeds, and browse; in the winter I feed them hay.  People can't eat any of that stuff.  The chickens can be fed primarily on free-range and kitchen scraps most of the year, turning those things (bugs, seeds, scraps) into good human food.  I see them as preventing waste, not causing it!

Kathleen

I agree Kathleen.  When I read that statement about blood meal and bone meal I thought aloud......well what will I do with all of those bones left over from cleaning the fish from my pond.  It is actually great chicken feed.  The bones left over from my rabbits will get run through the hammer mill a few times and used too.  I do not have a fish pond at this time but I do save all of the bones from my rabbits as I eat them.  Once a year will give me a pile of bone from about 50 rabbits.  That's not very much bone meal but it came from the earth so I am putting it back.

Kathleen Sanderson wrote:
Not trying to start an argument here, just curious, but there are two statements that have been made on this thread that I don't understand and wonder if someone would be able to explain. 

First, the 'cruelty-free' argument for not using blood meal or bone meal?  People refusing to buy those things isn't going to stop cattle being slaughtered; using them is using things that would otherwise go to waste.  So why not use them?  (I don't buy either, but I have plenty of manure from my animals for my garden.)
Kathleen

its pretty simple and obvious to me that by buying these things we are supporting and condonging the slaughter and confinement of animals in cruel and torturous conditions.... vote/protest with your dollars and boycott them.
if one chooses not to eat meat for moral or ethical objections, why then woul that person buy products that are the result of these practices it would be comepletely hypocritical.  thats my take on it.

as for the goats and chickens you make good points and i'd be cool doing that..i'm  not cool with killing them afterwards is all. ive had goats milk/cheese and liked it,though i am trying to cut all dairy out of my diet for health reasons.(cheese being my toughest struggle!)  actually ethical as well,as i dont have access to small,family farm dairy..main dairy industry is equally revolting as beef etc. 

tribalwind wrote:
its pretty simple and obvious to me that by buying these things we are supporting and condonging the slaughter and confinement of animals in cruel and torturous conditions.... vote/protest with your dollars and boycott them.
if one chooses not to eat meat for moral or ethical objections, why then woul that person buy products that are the result of these practices it would be comepletely hypocritical.  thats my take on it.

as for the goats and chickens you make good points and i'd be cool doing that..i'm  not cool with killing them afterwards is all. ive had goats milk/cheese and liked it,though i am trying to cut all dairy out of my diet for health reasons.(cheese being my toughest struggle!)  actually ethical as well,as i dont have access to small,family farm dairy..main dairy industry is equally revolting as beef etc. 

I owned a herd share for a while so I could get Raw Milk but it was too difficult to keep driving 50 miles one way to meet the truck from the farm so I stopped using dairy products and switched to using nut milk.  I eat animals, humans are omnivores.  I do not eat animal products from CAFO's ever.  I like goat meat too.  Some goats are just naturally meat producers rather than for dairy, some are good as a dual purpose animal.  I do not have a farm or even enough of a yard to keep my rabbits outdoors but if it becomes difficult to find food to buy anywhere or we have an economic meltdown and hyperinflation takes over I am ready to at least have some food to eat and share with some of my neighbors too.  There are a few of us "Guerrilla Farmers" in the area that we can trade what we produce with other for a more rounded diet.  I am sorry that you are experiencing dietary difficulties with dairy products. 

yep when i'm at home i make a gallon of nutmilk every few days (normally raw-almonds, i get them bulk 20#s for $60 shipped from san juaquin california)  ive made raw nut cheeses too and liek them but its not quite the same,being from NY it's hard to imagine life without pizza,ever again  .

i dont have any actual physical ailments from eating dairy like lactose intolerance etc, jsut think its healthier overall to avoid it,if youre living in the country raising your own or getting from someone who does i think its a lot less unhealthy than what i can get at a store.
i do notice that when i've been able to get completely off dairy that i am never stuffed up,mucousy,phlegmy,and have no inflamed sinus passages etc, which is great since i play and make ethnic wind instruments!.
im told got milk doesn't have the protein casein  like cow does, id otn know if that alone would make a difference with the respiratory/sinus stuff..many people i talk to have noticed the same minor symptoms from dairy that i do. 

many of us know that there are other arguments against dairy out there like why would a human suck a cows udder , or that no other animal drinks milk past the weening stage but im not trying to debate all that here! .to ech their own

anyway,this thread is starting to get hijacked/off-topic.

so does anyone here know if it is true or not that Joel does in fact import some feed or other inputs in the winter or other times of the year ? if so is that still sustainable/permaculture really ?  if not,where did this rumor come from ?

tribalwind wrote:
yep when i'm at home i make a gallon of nutmilk every few days (normally raw-almonds, i get them bulk 20#s for $60 shipped from san juaquin california)  ive made raw nut cheeses too and liek them but its not quite the same,being from NY it's hard to imagine life without pizza,ever again  .

i dont have any actual physical ailments from eating dairy like lactose intolerance etc, jsut think its healthier overall to avoid it,if youre living in the country raising your own or getting from someone who does i think its a lot less unhealthy than what i can get at a store.
i do notice that when i've been able to get completely off dairy that i am never stuffed up,mucousy,phlegmy,and have no inflamed sinus passages etc, which is great since i play and make ethnic wind instruments!.
im told got milk doesn't have the protein casein  like cow does, id otn know if that alone would make a difference with the respiratory/sinus stuff..many people i talk to have noticed the same minor symptoms from dairy that i do. 

many of us know that there are other arguments against dairy out there like why would a human suck a cows udder , or that no other animal drinks milk past the weening stage but im not trying to debate all that here! .to ech their own

anyway,this thread is starting to get hijacked/off-topic.

so does anyone here know if it is true or not that Joel does in fact import some feed or other inputs in the winter or other times of the year ? if so is that still sustainable/permaculture really ?  if not,where did this rumor come from ?

His operation is fairly large and I would suspect that he does purchase supplies.  He spends quite a bit of time speaking around the country and at $100 per head for a farm tour I have wondered how he actually does any farming any more.

I do not have any mucosa issues from dairy so for me it is a natural part of m diet.  I grew up in the western end of the Catskills and grew up drinking raw milk so my body is used to it.  I am in fact leaving for Binghamton NY  in an hour to visit my older sister.  I grew up about 50 miles east of there.  My son lives in NYC as does my older brother but while I did live in both NYC and LA during periods of my life my preference is the country.  I much prefer lots of trees and animals to concentrations of people.

Thank you dave'
yes , i noticed most if not all the more popular succesful permaculture models seem to get a good deal of revenue from tours of the farm as well as teaching/speaking engagements. joel and sepp are 2 good examples (though i think sepp is leaps and bounds ahead in PC and more in the direction i aspire to. .. i too loved raw milk/cheese when ive had it,, had it every day living in romania for over a year,no stuffiness too that i recall,but that was in 94'.

im with you on living locale. i live 30 mins east of manhattan in suburbia, it has its charms and benefits,but im done with it for long time now...
i'd love to own/share a few acres around asheville NC or similar area. maybe an covillage of some sort.
im in Bolivia now (til next fri,since may) and have come across a few amazing places here i could definitely call home for at least part of the year,with the other half or 3rd being stateside, felt the same while in Belize and parts of the Caribbean , i love the tropics.

tribalwind wrote:
Thank you dave'
yes , i noticed most if not all the more popular succesful permaculture models seem to get a good deal of revenue from tours of the farm as well as teaching/speaking engagements. joel and sepp are 2 good examples (though i think sepp is leaps and bounds ahead in PC and more in the direction i aspire to. .. i too loved raw milk/cheese when ive had it,, had it every day living in romania for over a year,no stuffiness too that i recall,but that was in 94'.

im with you on living locale. i live 30 mins east of manhattan in suburbia, it has its charms and benefits,but im done with it for long time now...
i'd love to own/share a few acres around asheville NC or similar area. maybe an covillage of some sort.
im in Bolivia now (til next fri,since may) and have come across a few amazing places here i could definitely call home for at least part of the year,with the other half or 3rd being stateside, felt the same while in Belize and parts of the Caribbean , i love the tropics.

Too many AK-47's in Belize for me LOL.  I may be moving back to upstate NY.  That is part of what this trip is all about.  I am not thrilled with readjusting to snow up to my ass but Va. has nothing to keep me here any longer except for shorter winter.  I have an a possibility of utilizing most of 50 acres for permaculture.
The owner is a lifelong friend so it is a strong possibility.  I looked at Uruguay as a southern hemisphere place to live but decided to stay in the US.  I have some property in Quebec but that is even more winter. LOL  I remember traveling to South Hampton LI to visit my Dad's Mom back in the 50's.  You could always smell the duck farms around Moriches miles before you got to them. hahahahahahaha