Win a copy of Straw Bale Building Details this week in the Straw Bale House forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • r ranson
  • paul wheaton
  • Anne Miller
  • Mike Jay
  • Jocelyn Campbell
stewards:
  • Devaka Cooray
  • Burra Maluca
  • Joseph Lofthouse
garden masters:
  • Dave Burton
  • Greg Martin
gardeners:
  • Mike Barkley
  • Shawn Klassen-Koop
  • Pearl Sutton

autism  RSS feed

 
Posts: 319
Location: Dawson Creek, BC, Canada
20
  • Likes 8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello.

Please don't visit this thread with the idea that permaculture causes autism.  There are too many people who think vaccines do.

If I was to ask my doctor (if I had one) whether my leg was broken or not, it is mostly a binary (yes or no) answer.  But there are some circumstances where a doctor might have to think a while as to what the definition of broken was for the patient, before being able to answer.

Autism occurs on a spectrum, with respect to all kinds of things.  And it is not unusual to find that an autistic person also has other "problems".

One aspect of autism seemingly has no spectrum, but that probably is not true either.  So why the "bible" to the psycho-babble people decided to split off Asperger's syndrome from Autism, is strange to me.  If the person in question has a language deficit, it is typically referred to as autism.  If the person in question has no language deficit, it is typically referred to as Asperger's syndrome.

I have no language deficit, so I am classed as Asperger's syndrome.  I believe you can tell from how I use English language text, I have no language deficit.  I have tried to learn French (required in schooling in Canada) and German (in university); failed both times.  How the brain processes language is probably different between languages.

To me, what I've written already, is dumb.  If someone is autistic (language deficit or not), the way their brain is wired is different.  There are parents all over the world, looking to "cure" their child of autism.  How do you rewire a brain?  For me, the answer is their is no "cure" for autism.  You just have to live with how they are different.

There are things about Dyslexia which are also strange.  But, their are pattern matching things that some dyslexics can do much much faster than anyone without dyslexia.

I am "high functioning", and did go on to a B.Sc. and a M.Eng. in engineering.  But I have (almost) never been seriously considered for an engineering job by engineering companies.  I have found technical work, it wasn't engineering.

People with autism tend to map things back to a single topic.  I could call it cooking, but what makes more sense is materials science.  To me, they are the same topic.  But I started cooking at age 4 or 5, and was doing recipes that neither parent could do.  Before I ever attended school ( to learn how to read, I already was reading).  In university studying hydrometallurgy, I seen where much of cooking had  the same thermodynamics as engineering.  And the same goes for (low temperature) pyrometallurgy.

---

I do not trust diagnosis by psycholgists, psychiatrist, or industrialised versions.  I think genetic testing at least finds tendencies.  But I think the best methods now, are MRI studies looking at connection density in the brain.  As near as I understand the studies, all neurotypicals have about the same (3D) map.  Autistics are more readily seen as having a map much different from the neurotypical map.

There are autistics who have (about) the same map as neurotypicals, except that the density of connections for high or for low may be significantly different from what is seen for neurotypical.

===

Why post this?

I occasionally respond to posts on other topics.  It often happens that I think I know more science about something than a previous commenter has, and I respond.  My response is not in general, to say that someone is wrong.  It is to say we have a difference in opinion, which might require further study.

I am not trying to attack people.

There are lots of people on permies.com who have more experience with something than I do.

I probably have  more math/science/statistics  knowledge than they do.  But that doesn't matter!!!

If you don't understand what I write, ask a question.

If you disagree with what I write, say so.

I may be not as smart as I think I am on this topic, and so this is an opportunity for me to learn.

---

I hope  people don't grow to hate comments from me.

 
Gordon Haverland
Posts: 319
Location: Dawson Creek, BC, Canada
20
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have absolutely no intention of thinking I am better than everyone else.  I have met people more intelligent than I am.

If you disagree or don't understand a comment I've made, by all means reply.  I will try to resolve things.

No guarantee that others with autism follow the same path I do.  Because we are all different.
 
master steward
Posts: 8466
Location: Pacific Northwest
3068
cat duck fiber arts forest garden homestead hugelkultur kids sheep foraging wood heat
  • Likes 8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
There are quite a few of us aspies or probably-aspies here on permies! We've actually got a few threads on this subject, since it hits home for many of us:

Permaculture and Autism, Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD), and Asperger's

The Importance of Neurodiversity in Permaculture

Adaptive Permaculture: How do we integrate folks with disabilities? (The thread that spawned the other two threads.)

I'm an ENTJ, what are you? Not exactly autism related, but it's neat to see how many permies are introverts and of similar, rare, personality types.

Somewhere on this forum--unless I'm losing my mind--there's a thread on how to communicate on the forum when we are all neurodiverse...but for life of me, I can't find it. Maybe it's in one of the threads up above.

I occasionally respond to posts on other topics.  It often happens that I think I know more science about something than a previous commenter has, and I respond.  My response is not in general, to say that someone is wrong.  It is to say we have a difference in opinion, which might require further study.

I am not trying to attack people.



On thing that helps in giving more information in a way that others won't interpret as attacking, is to say, "I think" or, to not even really respond to what they say to refute it, but just to offer more information. Paul gave this example in a thread (https://permies.com/t/7304/Leaving-room-peoples-ideas#65852)

paul wheaton wrote:chase:  all crows have black feet

jessica:  here is a picture of my crow with red feet

Seems like everything is okay to me.  

Of course if it were "you are wrong.  here is a picture of my crow with red feet." then I would have a problem with that.



I've learned a LOT about how to communicate by being here on permies. It's really helped me tremendously in those little social skills that I struggle with. It's really nice knowing that most everyone here on permies is not just trying to BE nice, but IS nice. It's great being surrounded by so many nice, helpful, truthful people.


----------------

As for curing autism, I'm really happy I'm an aspie. I love my truthful, inquisitive, focused traits. I do, however, like when I'm less overstimulated in stores and overwhelmed by new circumstances and unable to cope. I've found that those traits can be kind of mitigated for me through diet and sleep. If I get enough sleep and stay away from grains and processed junk, I'm less overstimulated and more able to deal with the craziness of my children and shopping and annoying sounds and curveballs that life throws at me.

So, while I would never want to cure my autism, or the autism in my husband and probably in my offspring, I do want to help us all be able to be less overstimulated and less prone to fight/flight reflexes and more able to cope with the stresses that life sometimes throws at us. I wouldn't take meds for it, or give my kids meds. But, avoiding junkfood, reducing what stress I can, and getting us more sleep, that I can and will do!
 
Posts: 538
Location: Middle Georgia
79
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


If I was to ask my doctor (if I had one) whether my leg was broken or not, it is mostly a binary (yes or no) answer.  But there are some circumstances where a doctor might have to think a while as to what the definition of broken was for the patient, before being able to answer.

Autism occurs on a spectrum, with respect to all kinds of things.  And it is not unusual to find that an autistic person also has other "problems".

To me, what I've written already, is dumb.  If someone is autistic (language deficit or not), the way their brain is wired is different.  There are parents all over the world, looking to "cure" their child of autism.  How do you rewire a brain?  For me, the answer is their is no "cure" for autism.  You just have to live with how they are different.



I am not on the spectrum and I haven't looked into autism all that much...but I still have some thoughts on the matter.

While it may be impossible to "rewire" a brain, there is lots of good evidence that brains can compensate and active different regions to learn skills (or relearn skills in the case of brain injury or stroke). And there is also good evidence that some forms of behavioral therapy can do a LOT to give autistic kids more skills, and in some cases turn non-verbal autistic kids into fully functional adults that only show signs of mild Aspergers.

IMO for people to take the position that everyone must simply accept that a non-verbal 3 year old with severe autism was "born that way and his individuality must be respected" is a very extreme, and trendy, point of view. Though I do understand that it is an important part of self-acceptance for those that may feel marginalized by being on the spectrum.

An example might be a non-verbal 3 year old autistic boy that suffers from temper tantrums, has no tolerance for stress, and will only eat one or two foods. When they are three years old parents may decide to cherish their child's differences and individuality and do their best to make their child's life as happy and stress free as possible. However 20 years later, when that child is a 225 lb man, and the temper tantrums are no longer "annoying" but now downright dangerous, that kid may end up in a state run institution with a permanent feeding tube for the rest of his life.  Respecting a 3 year olds differences and "choices" that could have a severely negative impact for the rest of their lives is not at all fair IMO, it may be trendy to respect individuality and accept all differences, but the long term consequences can be horrible.

The above example actually came from a documentary I watched about different therapies and schools for kids on the spectrum. One school fully advocated "acceptance" and did not attempt to use behavioral therapy since they wanted to embrace the child's differences. Some of the kids would barely eat, and the caregivers outright admitted many could end up with feeding tubes as adults, and may be institutionalized, but that didn't seem to bother them at all. Their ideology was more important than the well-being of the kids.

A less extreme example may be a 3 year old worth with aspergers, severe social anxiety etc... He may grow up to be functional, hold down a job (even a great job) etc...but his limited social skills could cause him decades or even a lifetime of unhappiness/loneliness as an incel (though grant it if he makes a whole lot of money that isn't likely to happen).

All adults realize life includes pain, and bad experiences, however most all parents would ideally like to help their children avoid really painful experiences if at all possible. IMO it isn't about "changing them" as much as doing everything possible to give them the skills they lack in order to maximize their life opportunities and satisfaction. Of those on the spectrum that do suffer from social awkwardness or a lot of anxiety how many would say they are glad they are that way and wouldn't change it if they could? In the case of social awkwardness I am sure some honestly don't care (cause they have 4chan, video games and p0rn), but the ones that DO care would most likely fix it if they could!
 
Mother Tree
Posts: 10875
Location: Portugal
1478
bee bike books duck forest garden greening the desert solar tiny house wofati
  • Likes 11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Lucrecia Anderson wrote:Of those on the spectrum that do suffer from social awkwardness or a lot of anxiety how many would say they are glad they are that way and wouldn't change it if they could? !



Well me for a start.

Most of the anxiety just disappears so long as I can live life as *I* want to live it, and not worry about how other people want me to live it.  I find the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages, but for me only after I'd realised I was on the spectrum and able to read up about it, apply what I learned to myself, my son, and now my new partner.  I'm finding the whole experience fascinating and love being able to understand my strengths and weaknesses more so I can apply my strengths and appreciate my differences and recognise what differences are actually weaknesses. And it's not as many as I thought!

I think the most fascinating thing I'm exploring at the moment is recognising that such a high percentage of my friends are also on the spectrum and learning to 'unmask' when I'm with them.  The differences in the way I now communicate with certain people are phenomenal, leading to incredibly deep discussions without any of the social twaddle that I used to have shield my words with.  
 
Nicole Alderman
master steward
Posts: 8466
Location: Pacific Northwest
3068
cat duck fiber arts forest garden homestead hugelkultur kids sheep foraging wood heat
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Lucrecia Anderson wrote:A less extreme example may be a 3 year old worth with aspergers, severe social anxiety etc... He may grow up to be functional, hold down a job (even a great job) etc...but his limited social skills could cause him decades or even a lifetime of unhappiness/loneliness as an incel (though grant it if he makes a whole lot of money that isn't likely to happen).



My husband most likely has aspergers. He holds down a job, is married, and has two kids and merrily switches from hobby to hobby as his intensely-focused attention warrants (in the time I've known him, he's been into guitars, fish keeping, bonsai, My Little Pony, Classic Cars, and Hot Wheels). He still likes all his interests, but he only has one main interest at a time.

When I was in High School, my friends were sure that I would either be a nun ("I'm not catholic!" was my response) or a pastor's wife. I'm neither of those things. But, I honestly would have been happy single if I'd never met my husband. I would have homesteaded in my own little cabin and taught elementary school. One can have a fullfilling and "successful" life without being married. The thing is, many aspies are probably pretty content being single. It's not a miserable existence.

My husband was also never Incel material...if anything else, he was more of a feminist! I wouldn't go put all autistic people in that category or saying their lives must be miserable. There's a LOT of different ways to have a happy life. I remember reading one non-autistic mother mourning that her autistic child would never go to a high school dance or participate in sports or go to parties, as if that made their life miserable. Frankly, I didn't do any of those things, and feel no lack!

And, if the kid wants to those things, they can generally learn the social skills necessary. They can be forced to learn them through a sort of program, or taught them in a kinder fashion. But, even having the skills, it's kind of miserable and stressful having to use them and be so fake, or to be in a relationship that you got in by pretending to be someone else.

All adults realize life includes pain, and bad experiences, however most all parents would ideally like to help their children avoid really painful experiences if at all possible. IMO it isn't about "changing them" as much as doing everything possible to give them the skills they lack in order to maximize their life opportunities and satisfaction. Of those on the spectrum that do suffer from social awkwardness or a lot of anxiety how many would say they are glad they are that way and wouldn't change it if they could? In the case of social awkwardness I am sure some honestly don't care (cause they have 4chan, video games and p0rn), but the ones that DO care would most likely fix it if they could!



I try really hard to give my kids the social skills necessary to survive in the world. A lot of them make sense. And, my kids can learn them, just as I did. A lot of the skills don't come as "second nature," and I doubt that any sort of institutionalized, behaviorism-based program would make it second nature (I've read some pretty nasty stories about how some institutions operate).

Many of us aspies learned social skills by someone saying something. They didn't come naturally, but we learned them. For example, when I was a child and teenager, when my dad was stressed I would try to cheer him up by being really hyper and cheerful. One day, when I was probably 15 or 16, my older brother said to me, "Dad's stressed. Let's go upstairs and leave him alone." It had NEVER occured to me that that was the right way to act. But, I learned it and I remembered it, and usually I can apply that knowledge.

Burra talks about "masks." This is when an aspie tries their hardest to act just like non-autistic people. It can be done, and it is REALLY tiring and soul-wearing. It's so refreshing when we DON'T have to pretend. When we can just be ourselves. I am so happy that with my husband and some other aspies and good friends/family, I can be myself. I don't have to think about every word and how it's said.

Of those on the spectrum that do suffer from social awkwardness or a lot of anxiety how many would say they are glad they are that way and wouldn't change it if they could?



This is kind of like saying, to an "introvert, don't you wish you were and extrovert?" or vice-a-versa. Most would not want to change. They like who they are. The exrovert in Seattle might really wish there were MORE extroverts so their life would be more fun, and the introvert in an extroverted community might really wish they had more time to themselves...but they don't really want to be someone else.


Sure, being an aspie is hard at times, but I honestly wouldn't want to be anyone else. I like to strengthen my weaknesses, and learn how to arrange my life so I don't have to deal with situations that I struggle with. Some people think I'm a failure for not, say, going and getting groceries with my kids by myself, and that I always like to go with my husband. My brain is overwhelmed by the stresses of parenting, and a shopping trip is just too much. But, you know what, even though I'm a "failure," we keep going, and my kids are smart and caring and we have food and everything that we need. So even though I'm a "failure," we're not failing. So, what's the problem?

Those with aspergers have a lot of strengths. Here's some that come off the top of my mind:

  • Many enjoy repetitive tasks other's hate. I'm currently going through the giant WWOOF / ORGANIC FARM VOLUNTEERS/INTERNS/JOBS forum and moving all the threads to more relevant forums. This is work most people would HATE to do. I actually kind of enjoy it. The work is getting done, and things will be better for everyone because someone did it.
  • They are loyal. Want someone who will be devoted for their whole life? You'll probably find that trait a LOT more in aspies.
  • They are honest. Open communication in a relationship is SO important, and I am SO thankful that I know my husband tells me everything. We don't have secrets from each other. It's immensely comforting
  • They're passionate and intelligent and focused. Not all aspies are all of these things, but many have things that they love and they research and they know a TON about. Want to learn about something? Find an aspie!
  • Their minds find patterns and connections where others may not. I LOVE discussing things with my husband.
  • They like stability and are generally stable. Not all are, of course, but many are, and that can be super reassuring.


  • I am so glad I found my husband. He's funny, intelligent, interesting, loyal, and honest. We've muddled our way through a lot of trials, but we learn together and are stronger for it (Here's a post I wrote on our relationship.)
     
    Gordon Haverland
    Posts: 319
    Location: Dawson Creek, BC, Canada
    20
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    Somebody has sent me "pie".  I have absolutely no idea what to do with pie.

    I had someone send me pie once before.

    I have absolutely no idea what to do with pie.  The last time, I expect it expired.  Is there some way I can send this pie to a charity?

    Nicole Alderman wrote:
    As for curing autism, I'm really happy I'm an aspie. I love my truthful, inquisitive, focused traits. I do, however, like when I'm less overstimulated in stores and overwhelmed by new circumstances and unable to cope. I've found that those traits can be kind of mitigated for me through diet and sleep. If I get enough sleep and stay away from grains and processed junk, I'm less overstimulated and more able to deal with the craziness of my children and shopping and annoying sounds and curveballs that life throws at me.

    So, while I would never want to cure my autism, or the autism in my husband and probably in my offspring, I do want to help us all be able to be less overstimulated and less prone to fight/flight reflexes and more able to cope with the stresses that life sometimes throws at us. I wouldn't take meds for it, or give my kids meds. But, avoiding junk food, reducing what stress I can, and getting us more sleep, that I can and will do!



    I don't think I've cut and pasted correctly, but I think this should work.

    I had a long reply, but I think the best is that I am troubled that when my Mom dies, I will have nobody in my life.   My Mom was mistreated by my sperm source most of my life.   And that they divorced 15 or so years ago,; the car accident keeps bringing this up (because the concussion, or other things?)
     
    Lucrecia Anderson
    Posts: 538
    Location: Middle Georgia
    79
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    Burra Maluca wrote:

    Lucrecia Anderson wrote:Of those on the spectrum that do suffer from social awkwardness or a lot of anxiety how many would say they are glad they are that way and wouldn't change it if they could? !



    Well me for a start.



    My terminology was vague. When I said "suffer" from social awkwardness etc...I didn't mean they simply have it, I meant they are actually suffering from the effects of it. That could mean being so socially awkward they can't get a girlfriend even though they really want one, or maybe they feel like they are walking on eggshells around neurotypicals and often worried that others might "unexpectedly" blow up at them.

    I recall working with at least two people in the late 90's that in hindsight almost certainly had Aspergers (though at the time I didn't know that Aspergers existed). Both were in very stressful sales environments where emotions ran high, and in both cases these individuals became downright hated by some others on the staff because they were pushing buttons and pissing people off on what seemed like a constant basis, and when people became upset they wouldn't stop but instead seemed to LIKE twisting the knife in the wound. One individual was a male manager in his 40's and he came very close to getting punched during a heated encounter (though I am sure he had no clue).

    In both cases I eventually figured out they simply couldn't recognize when the people around them were getting upset, in the case of the "sadistic" male manager I came out and said "I can't talk about this right now, I will get emotional" and he immediately apologized and backed off. At that point a light bulb went off in my head and I realized he couldn't read emotion. I told my coworkers about it and then folks didn't hate/resent him anymore.  I doubt if the guy knew he had Aspergers but I have no doubt he suffered from the affects of it.  He always spoke softly and always with a smile on his face, he  had probably suffered from people suddenly "blowing up" at him his entire life and the constant smile was an attempt to avoid those invisible emotional landmines.  Though on the upside he was a nice looking guy and married with a couple of kids so he did pretty well for himself in that regard.
     
    Gordon Haverland
    Posts: 319
    Location: Dawson Creek, BC, Canada
    20
    • Likes 2
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    Lucrecia Anderson wrote:


    If I was to ask my doctor (if I had one) whether my leg was broken or not, it is mostly a binary (yes or no) answer.  But there are some circumstances where a doctor might have to think a while as to what the definition of broken was for the patient, before being able to answer.

    Autism occurs on a spectrum, with respect to all kinds of things.  And it is not unusual to find that an autistic person also has other "problems".

    To me, what I've written already, is dumb.  If someone is autistic (language deficit or not), the way their brain is wired is different.  There are parents all over the world, looking to "cure" their child of autism.  How do you rewire a brain?  For me, the answer is their is no "cure" for autism.  You just have to live with how they are different.



    I am not on the spectrum and I haven't looked into autism all that much...but I still have some thoughts on the matter.

    While it may be impossible to "rewire" a brain, there is lots of good evidence that brains can compensate and active different regions to learn skills (or relearn skills in the case of brain injury or stroke). And there is also good evidence that some forms of behavioral therapy can do a LOT to give autistic kids more skills, and in some cases turn non-verbal autistic kids into fully functional adults that only show signs of mild Aspergers.



    Il agree that compensation is possible.  It need not be active.   My brain adapted to what I experienced for many years (up till I was 40 years old), but how I adapted without any guidance was not very useful.

    The thing I dislike the most, it that my engineering associations came up with diversity policies  which did not include autism.  And on writing to them, there  was no response.
     
    Gordon Haverland
    Posts: 319
    Location: Dawson Creek, BC, Canada
    20
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    Lucrecia Anderson wrote:


    An example might be a non-verbal 3 year old autistic boy that suffers from temper tantrums, has no tolerance for stress, and will only eat one or two foods. When they are three years old parents may decide to cherish their child's differences and individuality and do their best to make their child's life as happy and stress free as possible. However 20 years later, when that child is a 225 lb man, and the temper tantrums are no longer "annoying" but now downright dangerous, that kid may end up in a state run institution with a permanent feeding tube for the rest of his life.  Respecting a 3 year olds differences and "choices" that could have a severely negative impact for the rest of their lives is not at all fair IMO, it may be trendy to respect individuality and accept all differences, but the long term consequences can be horrible.



    I'm sorry, I don't have a good or even reasonable response to this.

     
    Gordon Haverland
    Posts: 319
    Location: Dawson Creek, BC, Canada
    20
    • Likes 1
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    Lucrecia Anderson wrote:
    I recall working with at least two people in the late 90's that in hindsight almost certainly had Aspergers (though at the time I didn't know that Aspergers existed). Both were in very stressful sales environments where emotions ran high, and in both cases these individuals became downright hated by some others on the staff because they were pushing buttons and pissing people off on what seemed like a constant basis, and when people became upset they wouldn't stop but instead seemed to LIKE twisting the knife in the wound. One individual was a male manager in his 40's and he came very close to getting punched during a heated encounter (though I am sure he had no clue).



    I hope I cut that properly.

    I haven't  spent time studying DSM about autism lately, there seemed no point.

    As I understood autism from the point of view of the psychobabbles, is that ALL autistics couldn't not read ANYTHING in others, regardless of the situation.  There was also no mention of light intensity level, in terms of maintaining eye contact (which is something I have felt).

    Psycho-babble said that autistics could not read people  I largely seen people as binary: either happy or not-happy.  The not-happy varied from person to person.  Some people I thought were always angry.  Other people had different "defaults"

    I have noticed that maintaining eye contact.when light intensity levels are high is much more difficult than if light levels are lower.
     
    Gordon Haverland
    Posts: 319
    Location: Dawson Creek, BC, Canada
    20
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    Gordon Haverland wrote:Somebody has sent me "pie".  I have absolutely no idea what to do with pie.

    I had someone send me pie once before.

    I have absolutely no idea what to do with pie.  The last time, I expect it expired.  Is there some way I can send this pie to a charity?



    I have no idea what this PIE thing is.

    If someone feels a need to send me this strange PIE, please allow me to send it to some charity who actually be able to do something useful with it.
     
    Nicole Alderman
    master steward
    Posts: 8466
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    3068
    cat duck fiber arts forest garden homestead hugelkultur kids sheep foraging wood heat
    • Likes 2
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    People give pie when they see a post they like or agree with. Someone liked what you wrote, so they gave you pie.

    PIE gives you some access to spiffy things, like the PIE forum, which has some free stuff (videos, downloads, discounts at certain places). It also allows you to customize the forums a little bit, like get rid of the wood background. You can also give two thumbs-ups on post. You can get rid of the ads, too. There's more stuff that I can't recall at the moment.

    The pie lasts for a month. If you see a post that you like, you can give that person a piece of pie, by clicking the button.

    I'll see if I can find the thread that explains PIE better than I can.
     
    pollinator
    Posts: 368
    Location: Ashhurst New Zealand
    78
    chicken duck homestead cooking trees wood heat woodworking
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    Gordon, the light intensity thing is exactly what a good friend of mine (who is also aspie) deals with. Her solution is to wear dark glasses, and when she does this it's a lot easier for her to engage people in conversation. I don't know if you'd find it useful. She says some people are put off by her wearing shades but once she explains her situation they tend to be supportive.
     
    Nicole Alderman
    master steward
    Posts: 8466
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    3068
    cat duck fiber arts forest garden homestead hugelkultur kids sheep foraging wood heat
    • Likes 1
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    I wonder if blue-blockers would help with the light intensity? Maybe it's the type/hue of light, not just the intensity? I have a harder time thinking and seeing in LED light, but firelight and incandescent are much easier for me. My husband has blue-blocking glasses that look like reading glasses, but block the harsh light.
     
    Lucrecia Anderson
    Posts: 538
    Location: Middle Georgia
    79
    • Likes 3
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    Gordon Haverland wrote:
    Il agree that compensation is possible.  It need not be active.   My brain adapted to what I experienced for many years (up till I was 40 years old), but how I adapted without any guidance was not very useful.

    The thing I dislike the most, it that my engineering associations came up with diversity policies  which did not include autism.  And on writing to them, there  was no response.



    I completely agree on including autism in company HR policies. James Damore at Google being the perfect example of why such policies need to be in place. When Google asked for suggestions on a "sensitive" topic he naively provided ideas in good faith without realizing he wasn't just stepping on an emotional landmine, he was detonating a 100 megaton nuclear warhead.

    He has filed a class action lawsuit so policies could change as a result.

    Nicole Alderman wrote: You can also give two thumbs-ups on post.



    I knew about forum access but not the two thumbs up thing. Ha. All this time I thought the board had a glitch or something with the thumbs up button.
     
    Burra Maluca
    Mother Tree
    Posts: 10875
    Location: Portugal
    1478
    bee bike books duck forest garden greening the desert solar tiny house wofati
    • Likes 5
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    Lucrecia Anderson wrote:My terminology was vague. When I said "suffer" from social awkwardness etc...I didn't mean they simply have it, I meant they are actually suffering from the effects of it.
    ...
    In both cases I eventually figured out they simply couldn't recognize when the people around them were getting upset, in the case of the "sadistic" male manager I came out and said "I can't talk about this right now, I will get emotional" and he immediately apologized and backed off. At that point a light bulb went off in my head and I realized he couldn't read emotion. I told my coworkers about it and then folks didn't hate/resent him anymore.  I doubt if the guy knew he had Aspergers but I have no doubt he suffered from the affects of it.  He always spoke softly and always with a smile on his face, he  had probably suffered from people suddenly "blowing up" at him his entire life and the constant smile was an attempt to avoid those invisible emotional landmines.  Though on the upside he was a nice looking guy and married with a couple of kids so he did pretty well for himself in that regard.



    Your terminology was fine.

    Which seems to confirm the conclusion I've gradually come to - most of us aspies can cope perfectly well if other people accept us for who we are and stop insisting that we be like them.  Some of the other stuff you talked about applies very much to my new partner.  He didn't have to change, it was me who had to recognise him and his aspieness for what it was.  It was me who had to change my mindset.  And once I did, and had 'unmasked myself', I could see what I used to consider his faults as the virtues they really were, and see how they actually mirrored my own rather closely.  He's still the same guy he always was - loyal, true, honest, faithful, and very, very much not wanting to change any of what other people see as being his faults simply to conform to what they might want.  

    What we tend to suffer from is other people trying to fit us into their boxes, and being educated to think that we're supposed to.
     
    Gordon Haverland
    Posts: 319
    Location: Dawson Creek, BC, Canada
    20
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    Nicole Alderman wrote:People give pie when they see a post they like or agree with. Someone liked what you wrote, so they gave you pie.

    PIE gives you some access to spiffy things, like the PIE forum, which has some free stuff (videos, downloads, discounts at certain places). It also allows you to customize the forums a little bit, like get rid of the wood background. You can also give two thumbs-ups on post. You can get rid of the ads, too. There's more stuff that I can't recall at the moment.

    The pie lasts for a month. If you see a post that you like, you can give that person a piece of pie, by clicking the button.

    I'll see if I can find the thread that explains PIE better than I can.



    I think it would be best if the pie could go elsewhere.  Most of the stuff you mention, I don't see value in.  I'm too much of a perfectionist to even like what I post at times, let alone judge other people.  People are trying, and most of the time the best I can do is keep my mouth shut (not post).  I do appreciate that they have written.

    I see that you posted to a link on pie, I'll try to read it.  But my feeling is that it isn't for me.

    I do appreciate that someone felt good enough about what I had written (twice, once in some other thread) to give me pie.  But for me, I would probably be happier to just have my pie go somewhere else.
     
    Gordon Haverland
    Posts: 319
    Location: Dawson Creek, BC, Canada
    20
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    Nicole Alderman wrote:Ah-ha! Here's more info about PIE https://permies.com/wiki/pie



    Thanks for the link.  No, I don't want the pie.  Maybe I've been around linux and comp.sources on netnews too much in the past.
     
    Gordon Haverland
    Posts: 319
    Location: Dawson Creek, BC, Canada
    20
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    Phil Stevens wrote:Gordon, the light intensity thing is exactly what a good friend of mine (who is also aspie) deals with. Her solution is to wear dark glasses, and when she does this it's a lot easier for her to engage people in conversation. I don't know if you'd find it useful. She says some people are put off by her wearing shades but once she explains her situation they tend to be supportive.



    I remember one referee (soccer/football) long ago in Edmonton, always wore shades.  Most players thought it was inappropriate.

    But it is nice to know I am not imagining things about light intensity.
     
    Gordon Haverland
    Posts: 319
    Location: Dawson Creek, BC, Canada
    20
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    Burra Maluca wrote:

    Lucrecia Anderson wrote:  

    What we tend to suffer from is other people trying to fit us into their boxes, and being educated to think that we're supposed to.



    The only person in my life (for the most part) is my Mom, who is 86.  Because we live together.  I year or so ago, she had a car accident, and is having some problems of a memory nature (not cognition).  I've dabbled in the medical literature, but most of my knowledge of cognition and memory is on the computer side of things.

    I make too many mistakes in talking to her, but I am not trying to be malicious.  She seems to appreciate this, and I still hope that the last mistake is the end of making mistakes.

    I do wonder what is going to happen should she die, and there is nobody to talk to.  Except myself.  But I already talk to myself a lot anyway.  I go to look at the land, and I talk to myself as I observe things I hadn't seen before, or a reobserve things after having spent some time studying the issue I think is at play.

    In the summer, I get to complain and yell at deer (white tail and mule), and now in the winter I get the added benefit of getting annoyed at one of the most dangerous animals in the wild, the moose.  Typically a cow moose with a yearling tagging around somewhere.

    I thought there must be a joke about why the moose crossed the road, and I am not finding one.

     
    Gordon Haverland
    Posts: 319
    Location: Dawson Creek, BC, Canada
    20
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    Burra.  I mangled editing my last quote.  Sorry.

    Thanks.

    Yes, I get surprised at running across situations where I learn of others with autism, or dyslexia.

     
    Lucrecia Anderson
    Posts: 538
    Location: Middle Georgia
    79
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    Burra Maluca wrote:
    Your terminology was fine.

    Which seems to confirm the conclusion I've gradually come to - most of us aspies can cope perfectly well if other people accept us for who we are and stop insisting that we be like them.  Some of the other stuff you talked about applies very much to my new partner.  He didn't have to change, it was me who had to recognise him and his aspieness for what it was.  It was me who had to change my mindset.  And once I did, and had 'unmasked myself', I could see what I used to consider his faults as the virtues they really were, and see how they actually mirrored my own rather closely.  He's still the same guy he always was - loyal, true, honest, faithful, and very, very much not wanting to change any of what other people see as being his faults simply to conform to what they might want.  

    What we tend to suffer from is other people trying to fit us into their boxes, and being educated to think that we're supposed to.



    In the work situations I described it was NOT about them being accepted for what they are, or about normies being judgemental. The issue was that those around them did not know they perceived things differently, so when they kept saying or doing things even though the  person they were speaking with was obviously becoming distressed/upset as a result, it was perceived as them being intentionally rude/hostile. It is like dog body language, dogs communicate a lot through body language but if the signals are ignored/misunderstood then it can lead to an unexpected bite. With both dogs and people, the one giving off lots of signals expects that the other CAN read them and either doesn't care that it is causing distress, or more likely, they are looking for a fight.

    Once it finally became apparent the people I worked with couldn't read emotion then no one judged them or expected them to change, we were just glad to realize they didn't intend to come off as hostile. In a programming or engineering environment it would likely be less of an issue since the work environment and personalities are typically more sedate.

    And as far as being judgemental is concerned, it isn't like the people around them can simply ask what their intentions are or if they are on the spectrum, especially if the hostility was in fact intentional.
     
    pollinator
    Posts: 244
    Location: France, Burgundy, parc naturel Morvan
    66
    fish food preservation forest garden fungi homestead cooking solar trees wood heat woodworking
    • Likes 1
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    Hi Gordon, i find autism and aspergers fascinating. I don't agree with you we should not try to "rewire" people with aspergers/autism , some people are really bad off, why not try to rewire? Where is the harm if people have really a lot of difficulty to live. And it can be very,very tiring for parents , so why not try? I'm not saying they have to be forced to be rewired if the aspergers/autist do not agree themselves, because that would be cruel. Anyway, we can talk about this as much as we like, to decide what would or not be wise and fair, scientist are going to continue despite the outcome.

    You'll probably call it psychobabble, but i heard people do rewiring of their brain using psychedelic substances. Also scientists nowadays are busy doing tests and making great progress , for instance people dying of cancer who are terrified of death learn to be accepting of the fact they will die. I would not know of a better example of rewiring a brain than that.


     
    Lucrecia Anderson
    Posts: 538
    Location: Middle Georgia
    79
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    Gordon Haverland wrote:
    I do wonder what is going to happen should she die, and there is nobody to talk to.  Except myself.  But I already talk to myself a lot anyway.  I go to look at the land, and I talk to myself as I observe things I hadn't seen before, or a reobserve things after having spent some time studying the issue I think is at play.



    Maybe get yourself a well mannered easy to handle rescue dog?  Dogs are the most loving and accepting companions on earth and it doesn't take much to keep them happy -- just some physical affection, praise and of course food. If you have a fenced yard you could reach out to a rescue group and tell them your situation, they would be able to match you with some nice dogs that would fit your needs/lifestyle.

    It would probably be more satisfying then yelling at the deer, plus you get to experience things through their eyes (?) and enjoy adventures together. If you can learn to read sign language you could likely learn to read a dog, they are very communicative through body language.
     
    pollinator
    Posts: 316
    Location: Virginia
    86
    books chicken cooking
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    Hi Gordon, I just wanted to let you know that you can gift your pie to someone else if it bothers you.  Just find a post you like and hit the "+🍰" symbol (sorry my emoji chart didnt have pie pic, just cake) and it will move to the other person.  Hope it works for you, otherwise maybe someone else more tech skilled can help!
     
    gardener
    Posts: 2917
    Location: Upstate NY, zone 5
    124
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    And no need to feel awkward about who you give the pie to; you can make it anonymous so they don't know who it came from.
     
    Posts: 159
    Location: North Coast Dominican Republic
    17
    forest garden tiny house trees
    • Likes 6
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    This is quite the discussion. I too am "on the spectrum" -- although I don't really like that term, because some people take it to the point of saying that everyone falls somewhere on the spectrum. That may be technically true, but it serves as a way of denying the special concerns of those of us who are diagnosable. Interesting point about the terminology of "suffering from." I for one can say that I do "suffer from" the social deficiency, in that it has kept me single all my life, with few real friends. It was worse when I was a kid, since kids are not kind to the misfits. But as much as I would like this to have been different, I also think, what would it cost me to cure it?

    I am a biologist. I think in evolutionary terms; and one thing about evolution is that a lot of it involves tradeoffs. Not everything can be optimized at the same time. One example is the length of an animal's jaws. The longer the jaws, the more quickly they can snap shut; the shorter the jaws, the stronger the bite. So in the crocodilians, for example, we find the gharial, with long, slender jaws that quickly snap shut on slippery fish; and the alligator, with short, broad jaws that can grip a struggling deer or crack a turtle shell. It is not physically possible to optimize both jaw closing speed and bite strength; so different species have different jaw lengths based on what tradeoff between the two they have reached.

    What has this to do with the autism spectrum? When we hear or read about an autistic person with abilities that neurotypical people lack, those abilities come at the price of social deficits. Yes, I suffer from my social deficits; but I would not change them, because doing so would cost me in other areas of life that I value.
     
    Burra Maluca
    Mother Tree
    Posts: 10875
    Location: Portugal
    1478
    bee bike books duck forest garden greening the desert solar tiny house wofati
    • Likes 3
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    Lots of good quotes in this but I'm too overwhelmed right now to go through and write them down.  



     
    Posts: 6
    1
    • Likes 2
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    I hate making a comment in long forums.
    They are like trying to make a comment in a conversation. I always feel like I am looking at a set of children swinging two jump ropes for "double Dutch" and I got to find some way to jump in without falling flat on my face.

    It was mentioned;
    "I wonder if blue-blockers would help with the light intensity? Maybe it's the type/hue of light, not just the intensity? I have a harder time thinking and seeing in LED light, but firelight and incandescent are much easier for me. My husband has blue-blocking glasses that look like reading glasses, but block the harsh light."

    I've read a lot about autism and sensory sensitivity. How it varies from person to person. I have also read about the "meeting a person's eyes" avoidance. Although I have sensory sensitivity, (i.e. certain sounds, touch, texture, etc.) I fall into the inappropriate staring category. It's the opposite of avoidance. I tend to keep it under control, or masked, but often, especially if I think the person is interesting/attractive in some way, I can't help it and I look like a creep.

    Also, I read about another member speaking on treatment options. Unfortunately, I have spent my life in forced, but ironically unintentional immersive therapy. No parents, and moved from one home to another. I became hyper-focused on people and all the funny things they did. I refused to speak.
    I remember clearly thinking how all the talking made no sense. I saw no point to it and most questions seemed entirely unnecessary. Then I noticed how I was being isolated due to my oddity. Being singled out and bullied, and even on occasionally having adults literally tell me how creepy and weird I was. Life gets hard fast when you are alone.
    Due primarily to the forced immersive into everything normal children did, or really given no choice, (no one respected my choice to be "me.") having the ability to hyper focus on people and how they acted around me, I learned to mimic them. I literally "faked it, till I made it."
    But... and it's a big but... as the creator of this forum pointed out, this cannot be cured.
    Best case scenario is you can treat the symptoms. Well, treat the results of living in a world that often is overwhelming and confusing. Perfect mimicry or not, years of dealing with the anxiety, the aggravation of the confusing things that go on around me, (NOTE: not everything is confusing. I have the ability of logic and reason.) the depression and loneliness; a loneliness derived from living separate from others; in a  world that doesn't often bridge into the normal one, takes an enormous toll.
    That's the part that worries me. Since it can't be cured, only treated, then what is the best I can hope for? Will there always be anxiety? Will there always be that disconnect between me and everyone else?
    Not questions meant in sadness or with defeat as their core. Quite honestly, I'm curious. Do people like me make real connections or are we sometimes just too, different?

    Thanks for the topic.

     
    pollinator
    Posts: 174
    Location: Utah
    39
    • Likes 3
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    This is an interesting topic, and I may go looking for the other posts mentioned previously.

    I also learned social norms through experience and observation, although with some major hickups along the way. Those rules do NOT make sense! I also "learned" to make eye contact (although I tended to avoid it primarily because others didn't want it, it's still part of a social expectation that is unconsciously enforced). I wouldn't trade those experiences because they taught me a level of empathy--even if it's not what neurotypicals would think of as empathy. It absolutely infuriates me when people say that we're emotionless. It's more that YOUR emotions aren't expressed like MY emotions so it's as if we're trying to communicate through a language barrier.

    I also work on a limited level with autistic kids--as in preverbal. NOT non-verbal. They communicate very well, except not in a way that most people would recognize as communication. In the absence of communication that they recognize as such, they create their own language and their own forms of expression. For the sensory thing I've used a small blanket or even my jacket for visual, covered ears or taught them to cover their own when the auditory is too much. And the light is child dependent. I've used red light, blue light and white light for calming them down. Some respond better to full spectrum light. Some respond to music, or other patterns. I think the whole thing could be made a lot easier by doing an MRI on each child and seeing where their brains are making connections.

    People tend to argue with me when I reveal I'm on the spectrum because I act too "normal." Well that normal was hard won, and it's just a shell. I'm a lifelong actor, looking at you through a mask. Under the mask, I'm someone else entirely.

    And under the mask, I like who I am. I don't like the mask, but it's necessary to function in this world.
     
    Lauren Ritz
    pollinator
    Posts: 174
    Location: Utah
    39
    • Likes 3
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    Gordon Haverland wrote:I occasionally respond to posts on other topics.  It often happens that I think I know more science about something than a previous commenter has, and I respond.  My response is not in general, to say that someone is wrong.  It is to say we have a difference in opinion, which might require further study.

    I am not trying to attack people.



    As far as the written communication I find that there are ways around the possible awkwardness. Using "I" and "you" can be seen as a threat or a challenge, while using the passive voice is seen as less confrontational. I read and reread and edit the life out of anything I write on forums. It's mostly about word choice, and I know it makes no sense whatsoever (human language just doesn't) but it's a skill that can be learned. I much prefer written communication because I can stop and think about my word choices.

    Anger is generally a response to a perceived (often unconscious) threat. So I always look back over what I wrote--not my intent, but what is there that this individual took as a threat? Or could have taken as a threat? How can I phrase it so the threat is minimized or nonexistent, and still get my point across?

    "I'm a physicist and here's how you're wrong.(informational spiel)" The first part of this is read by most people as an attempt to overshadow their own accomplishments. Threat. While the person could easily say "I have a background in the physical sciences" or "My background is in physics," or even "I work at (facility)" they choose to use the assertive. The second part ("here's how you're wrong") is always going to be taken as a threat. So the solution could be as simple as leaving off the introduction and simply going into the information.

    The in-between stages when I was learning this stuff was the most awkward. (Funny side note: I started that sentence with "The in-between stages when you are learning this stuff" and changed it so you wouldn't perceive a threat. The second paragraph started as "So look back over what you wrote--not your intent, but what is there that this individual took as a threat? Or could have taken as a threat? How can you phrase it next time so the threat is minimized or nonexistent, and still get your point across?" In the first paragraph I changed "It's a skill you can learn" to "It's a skill that can be learned" Habits. )
     
    Posts: 81
    Location: zone 6a, ish
    25
    food preservation forest garden fungi homestead cooking trees
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    Slightly off-topic, but what Lauren said above about nonviolent communication and self-editing really rang true with me; years ago someone recommended a very helpful book to me, Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life by Marshall B. Rosenberg.  I don't follow it to the letter, but it did make me more aware of how I use language and what I'm communicating by my word choices.

    I'm pretty sure I'm on the spectrum myself, but I was told flat out by a psychiatrist that he wouldn't bother trying to diagnose me because it can't be medicated (he worked for one of those medical McDonald's health companies that the state funnels all the poor people through; they rate performance by drugs pushed and goals met, quarterly numbers! and it's just bleh).  I'm 38; in the 80s/90s they overlooked girls (especially high-functioning, highly intelligent, hyper-verbal ones) because it was still perceived as a mostly male thing.  It is what it is, I guess.  I'm still angry about being surrounded by ignorance (and maliciousness) but at least I have hope for the future of kids like me, since there's so much more information available today, more people are being identified, and it's easier than ever for us to connect and share experiences.
     
    Lauren Ritz
    pollinator
    Posts: 174
    Location: Utah
    39
    • Likes 4
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    S Tonin wrote:t least I have hope for the future of kids like me, since there's so much more information available today, more people are being identified, and it's easier than ever for us to connect and share experiences.



    I had an interesting experience the other day. I was at a park with a pre-verbal child that I work with from time to time. He loves the zip-line (to the point that he'll actually shout "Zip!" as he runs toward it) but there was quite a line. We were working on taking turns and standing in line, but because of an error on my part he "learned" that the end of the line was the bottom of the stairs rather than the end of the line. So every time we went to the zip line he would push himself in at the bottom of the stairs. I held him back and firmly explained that he needed to wait, but he kept pushing himself to the bottom of the stairs. Once in line he would be fine--no pushing, waited very patiently. Anyway, a couple of the kids were getting irritated with his behavior and I explained that he thought the stairs were the end of the line, that he didn't understand that he was "butting in." The little girl's eyes lit up and she said "Oh, I know someone like that," and from there on they were perfectly accepting of his behavior, even helping to keep him in place and offering to let him go first (which I can't allow, of course).

    It was interesting to see the reactions of adults as well, when I asked them to move up because if there was a space he would think THAT was the end of the line. No concept of gap --> line starts again. End of the line is end of the line. It was like a light-bulb went off in their heads and they suddenly GOT IT.

    Just maybe, a few people have learned something.
     
    Acetylsalicylic acid is aspirin. This could be handy too:
    2019 PDC for Scientists, Engineers, Educators and experienced Permies
    https://permies.com/wiki/100059/PDC-Scientists-Engineers-Educators-experienced
    • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
    • New Topic
    Boost this thread!