The Permaculture Bootcamp Thistle Program - facilitating folks under the age of 18

Our history with under-18-peeps is rich in variety.  For every great experience we have three poor experiences.  A 25% success rate.  As we explore what has worked, and ideas on how edge cases might have worked better, we have come up with a possible framework ...

THISTLE-1: Gotta do the whole thing through the sepper program.  

THISTLE-2:  Under 18 peeps must be elbow-to-elbow with their parent for any time spent in the bootcamp.  

THISTLE-3:  minimum age in the bootcamp with a parent: 12 years old (possible exceptions for BB20)


Strict rules for people under 18 for every moment in the bootcamp:

  THISTLE-4: strict and immediate obedience to the parent.  At all times.   We need constant reassurance that there will be a proper response time in an emergency.  We also don't want to see or hear that disrespectful, whiney shit.

  THISTLE-5:  work hard and earn your beans

  THISTLE-4: address adults with their appropriate honorific.  Sirs, m'ams, Mr. _______, Miss ______, etc.  (plus "commander choi" and "commander bolton")


I visited with a few of the current boots, and re-visited a few times with commander choi and commander bolton (Dez and Magdalene).  We have lots and lots more to say - lots of concerns.  But this is a healthy starting point.  

Seppers don't have to participate in nest labor, but we feel it would be a large positive if all of the thistle participants did this.  Not a requirement, but a nice-to-have. I think this would make it so the adult boots would feel a lot more comfortable with having under-18-folks as part of the bigger picture.

At the time of this writing, I guess we are open to starting the thistle program.  At the same time, I would like to get feedback - maybe there are some other bits we should add here?  

I like the idea that we have more good experiences.  Without the sub-good experiences.  And I think there are a lot of adults that are keen on permaculture experiences, but struggling to find a way to juggle family with their need for adventure.  And I get the impression that there are some people under the age of 18 that very much want to do the stuff we do in the bootcamp PLUS get their parents to unplug for a bit.  It just seems like there is probably a way to get this to work well for everybody involved - and if we start here, maybe something even better will grow out of it.

For now:  let's have the thistle program start at basecamp.  

paul wheaton wrote:Our history with under-18-peeps is rich in variety.  For every great experience we have three poor experiences.  A 25% success rate.  As we explore what has worked, and ideas on how edge cases might have worked better, we have come up with a possible framework ...

THISTLE-1: Gotta do the whole thing through the sepper program.  

THISTLE-2:  Under 18 peeps must be elbow-to-elbow with their parent for any time spent in the bootcamp.  

THISTLE-3:  minimum age in the bootcamp with a parent: 12 years old (possible exceptions for BB20)


Strict rules for people under 18 for every moment in the bootcamp:

  THISTLE-4: strict and immediate obedience to the parent.  At all times.   We need constant reassurance that there will be a proper response time in an emergency.  We also don't want to see or hear that disrespectful, whiney shit.

  THISTLE-5:  work hard and earn your beans

  THISTLE-4: address adults with their appropriate honorific.  Sirs, m'ams, Mr. _______, Miss ______, etc.  (plus "commander choi" and "commander bolton")


I visited with a few of the current boots, and re-visited a few times with commander choi and commander bolton (Dez and Magdalene).  We have lots and lots more to say - lots of concerns.  But this is a healthy starting point.  

Seppers don't have to participate in nest labor, but we feel it would be a large positive if all of the thistle participants did this.  Not a requirement, but a nice-to-have. I think this would make it so the adult boots would feel a lot more comfortable with having under-18-folks as part of the bigger picture.

At the time of this writing, I guess we are open to starting the thistle program.  At the same time, I would like to get feedback - maybe there are some other bits we should add here?  

I like the idea that we have more good experiences.  Without the sub-good experiences.  And I think there are a lot of adults that are keen on permaculture experiences, but struggling to find a way to juggle family with their need for adventure.  And I get the impression that there are some people under the age of 18 that very much want to do the stuff we do in the bootcamp PLUS get their parents to unplug for a bit.  It just seems like there is probably a way to get this to work well for everybody involved - and if we start here, maybe something even better will grow out of it.

Quick question, what is nest labor, I’ve seen the reference a couple times but haven’t come across the meaning yet. However if it’s work of some kind(the fact that it’s called nest “labor” being the hint of that) then we’re up for it. That’s the reason we are there. I know that a bigger property we start from scratch will require more strength and expertise then our current homestead and let’s face it convenience is killing our society, I just don’t know enough of how to go about what we’ll need to know, reading/watching and trying to implement on my own has been interesting. We just want to integrate ourselves into the whole process/community/the day to day nitty gritty, I won’t say we’ll be adept at it but we’ll put everything we have into it.

I know all of this is just my perception and what I say until we actually get up there and that you really need to see it to believe it. I’m ok with that. I’d love to help  make this aspect of your program better for all parties.

more about nest labor:  https://permies.com/t/86713/permaculture-projects/project-labor-nest-labor-personal

It is so kid-specific.  

One of my kids would thrive in this context.  One of my kids would crumble into dust, very quickly.

I think one thing that might help, for both parties, would be a set "trial period," allowing feedback and possible termination or alteration after set periods of time.  Maybe weekly for the first month.

It is also possible that some thistles would do well as a half-boot, meaning just mornings, just afternoons, or 2-3 days per week.  Then 100% sepper the rest of the week.

All of this would require extra energy from all the facilitating folks at Wheaton Labs.  Therefor I also think a more rigorous parental vetting protocol might be in order.  Something along the lines of a questionnaire, with lots of written response items of various situations and contexts, to be evaluated on completely subjective terms by the WL party.  In essence, ask the parent - if you truly think this will be a marvelous experience for your kid, yourself, and everyone at wheaton labs, please paint me a very clear picture of how it will look.  What if this happens?  What if your kids does this?  What if someone else does this?

It could potentially also have a greater fee for accommodating the greater energy expense in hosting.  

I also like the idea of requiring a certain # of bbs prior to entry.  Perhaps even several specific bbs, ones that prove a willingness to keep house and take care of oneseelf.

Beau Davidson wrote:I think one thing that might help, for both parties, would be a set "trial period," allowing feedback and possible termination or alteration after set periods of time.  Maybe weekly for the first month.

I think every moment of every day is a trial period.  And the trial can be called to an end at any instant.  

It is also possible that some thistles would do well as a half-boot, meaning just mornings, just afternoons, or 2-3 days per week.  Then 100% sepper the rest of the week.

Which is why I think it needs to be part of the sepper program.   If the kid is pretending to be sick, or just being a whiney piece of shit, then just be a sepper away from the bootcamp.  

Some kids are a fucking rock and ready for the full 40 hours, plus the nest labor, plus knocking out a few BBs.

You just don't know until you give it a shot.

All of this would require extra energy from all the facilitating folks at Wheaton Labs.  Therefor I also think a more rigorous parental vetting protocol might be in order.  Something along the lines of a questionnaire, with lots of written response items of various situations and contexts, to be evaluated on completely subjective terms by the WL party.  In essence, ask the parent - if you truly think this will be a marvelous experience for your kid, yourself, and everyone at wheaton labs, please paint me a very clear picture of how it will look.  What if this happens?  What if your kids does this?  What if someone else does this?

It could potentially also have a greater fee for accommodating the greater energy expense in hosting.  

Fuck - that sounds like a lot of work.  I have enough stuff going on.  And the bootcamp does too.

I like the idea of figuring something out that is simple and effective.  Something that will benefit us and benefit the industrious, good people (kids and parents).  

I really like the idea that some 16 year old kid is the powerhouse and somehow drags their parent into this. That would be kick ass.

paul wheaton wrote:I really like the idea that some 16 year old kid is the powerhouse and somehow drags their parent into this. That would be kick ass.

Maybe that is the thing then.  The kid is treated like a boot - they must fill out their own survery, have their own interactions, etc.  

When someone says "can my kid come too," the answer would be "If they want to, have them join the bootcamp waiting list."

Maybe that's already how you do it . . .

I think entering into some agreement with people under 18 sounds like a breeding ground for trouble.  I think the discussion needs to be with adults or things can get weird.

paul wheaton wrote:I think entering into some agreement with people under 18 sounds like a breeding ground for trouble.  I think the discussion needs to be with adults or things can get weird.

Shnikes, this is complicated.

So it needs to be like a co-signer agreement.  Where if the kid is lame, it is the guardian's fault.  It seems like that should be obvious and customary, but it is so often not the case . . .

Seems like it might be simpler to say everyone under 18 is permitted only as a sepper with a guardian.  Then they can join the bootcamp when they want.  But the guardian must feed and keep them safe whenever they bail.  Then I guess if they prove they can hack it, they can join the bootcamp proper.  

Beau Davidson wrote:

Maybe that is the thing then.  The kid is treated like a boot - they must fill out their own survery, have their own interactions, etc.  

When someone says "can my kid come too," the answer would be "If they want to, have them join the bootcamp waiting list."

Maybe that's already how you do it . . .

That won’t work, kids need parental supervision and guidance. Some kids are good kids willing to do the work but have no idea how. If they. What if they get picked and a parent can’t go. The Sepper program works better for this. I’m with Paul on this. Yah it’d be great for a kid to lead the charge but that’s not the norm. As a parent it is my responsibility to instill good qualities and a love of learning of all types into my kids. It’s my responsibility to teach them responsibility and stewardship  for themselves, others, things, and the world around them. That what they do and their attitude impacts the environment in which we live, our circumstances and the world at large. That respect for human kind and each person even if they haven’t earned it shows bearing on who they are ultimately not who others are to them. That those older than is deserve a certain level of respect simply because they’ve had more life experiences bot necessarily because they’ve handled them well. I’ve met adults who were far less mature then my 11 year old but we still call them ma’am and sir Mr. and Mrs. because respect and politeness also protect both parties realizing there should always be a teacher/student, mentor/pupil relationship with minors period. Having my kids sign up for an adult job when they may not be ready for that responsibility but could do very well with increments of successive responsibility, makes me incredibly uncomfortable. No other adult should have that responsibility in their lives but my husband and I as their parents. My kids and I have been pondering on different soul labour and els labor that we can contribute. If you to tightly define what kids can contribute you may push one harder then they can rise to the challenge and hold another back that would greatly exceed your expectations. What Paul has tentatively set up so far (now this is without actually having experienced it, just through videos snd what I’ve been able to read about) sounds doable. We’re incredibly excited to try this but without knowing exactly what it will entail can’t commit for certain it may not work at all. I’m determined to try, we need the skills to badly but let’s not over complicate it especially since it’s a tentative program at this point.

Beau Davidson wrote:Seems like it might be simpler to say everyone under 18 is permitted only as a sepper with a guardian.  Then they can join the bootcamp when they want.  But the guardian must feed and keep them safe whenever they bail.  Then I guess if they prove they can hack it, they can join the bootcamp proper.  

It sounds like this is the way Paul and everyone there has decided to do it.

We just had two parents come through, each with one kid.  And we tried this stuff out.  Seems to have worked out fine.

So there is potential!

paul wheaton wrote:We just had two parents come through, each with one kid.  And we tried this stuff out.  Seems to have worked out fine.

So there is potential!

Yay! We’re excited to try it. Seriously this is a dream come true and to know I don’t have to give up on my dreams because other people don’t want to deal with kids, is such an amazing and hope filled feeling. Thank you Paul for trying to find a solution and not just condemning everyone for a few bad apples.

I think we can do kids under 12 if they have BB20.

paul wheaton wrote:I think we can do kids under 12 if they have BB20.

Seems legit.

Another tidbit:  on the evening before starting, i sat down with the two parents and the two kids and went over the rules.  I also threw in a reminder that the gub'mint has labeled them as "minors" and through this label restricts what they get to do - mostly because of the poor behavior of minors over the centuries.  So they are to be thoroughly punished until they are 18.  

A day in the life of a boot at Wheaton Labs:

Paul, it looks like I’ll be there with my kids in 1-2 weeks (we’re doing some visiting on the way) what arrangements do I need to make with you or whoever is in charge of Thistle/Sepper before we get there?

Kathleen Nelson wrote:Paul, it looks like I’ll be there with my kids in 1-2 weeks (we’re doing some visiting on the way) what arrangements do I need to make with you or whoever is in charge of Thistle/Sepper before we get there?

Sent you a PM, Kathleen.

Looks like Beau has you taken care of ...

We have an organic farm in Missouri and have been inspired by Paul after stumbling on his work following the likes of Sepp Holzer. We have built a hybrid batchbox/ J2 rocket mass heater that is currently doing a great job heating our greenhouse. Our oldest son who is 15 is currently unschooled and taking a few elective courses around town, he's eager to learn more about building, permaculture and being part something with purpose.

Would it be possible to get him involved in the boot program? He loves cooking and we could send him with meat, sourdough baking skills and morel cream sauce recipes.

Katie Adelsberger wrote:We have an organic farm in Missouri and have been inspired by Paul after stumbling on his work following the likes of Sepp Holzer. We have built a hybrid batchbox/ J2 rocket mass heater that is currently doing a great job heating our greenhouse. Our oldest son who is 15 is currently unschooled and taking a few elective courses around town, he's eager to learn more about building, permaculture and being part something with purpose.

Would it be possible to get him involved in the boot program? He loves cooking and we could send him with meat, sourdough baking skills and morel cream sauce recipes.

As long as the rules are met.

THISTLE-1: Gotta do the whole thing through the sepper program.  

THISTLE-2:  Under 18 peeps must be elbow-to-elbow with their parent for any time spent in the bootcamp.  

THISTLE-3:  minimum age in the bootcamp with a parent: 12 years old (possible exceptions for BB20)


Strict rules for people under 18 for every moment in the bootcamp:

 THISTLE-4: strict and immediate obedience to the parent.  At all times.   We need constant reassurance that there will be a proper response time in an emergency.  We also don't want to see or hear that disrespectful, whiney shit.

 THISTLE-5:  work hard and earn your beans

 THISTLE-4: address adults with their appropriate honorific.  Sirs, m'ams, Mr. _______, Miss ______, etc.  (plus "commander choi" and "commander bolton")

As a newbie to this site and a mom of 3 I'm becoming increasingly amazed by everything that's being created and I'm inspired to try my own little experiment at home to get a quantitative measurement of my kids enthusiasm to join me on a bootcamp adventure (age 11-18). My idea is to facilitate a family program where every member of the family is required to achieve BB10 in order to show our commitment to making the world a better place. Once everyone has achieved that goal we will celebrate by planning an adventure as seppers, thistles or boots, TBD. Looking through the pep list, I am confident that each of us will be able to complete BB10 with encouragement and direction and it will be a fun thing for us as a family to work towards. 
Questions: 
Can BB be obtained out of order? Eg. needlefelt creature is a straw badge in textiles. 
Are there any other youth doing this?

Anna Thomsen wrote:Questions: 
Can BB be obtained out of order? Eg. needlefelt creature is a straw badge in textiles.

Yes, they can be done in any order. The count to BB10, BB20, etc. PEP1 is a little more specific in requirements.

Anna Thomsen wrote:
Are there any other youth doing this?

I believe there are, but we don't ask ages so it is hard to tell.

Anna Thomsen wrote:As a newbie to this site and a mom of 3 I'm becoming increasingly amazed by everything that's being created and I'm inspired to try my own little experiment at home to get a quantitative measurement of my kids enthusiasm to join me on a bootcamp adventure (age 11-18). My idea is to facilitate a family program where every member of the family is required to achieve BB10 in order to show our commitment to making the world a better place. Once everyone has achieved that goal we will celebrate by planning an adventure as seppers, thistles or boots, TBD. Looking through the pep list, I am confident that each of us will be able to complete BB10 with encouragement and direction and it will be a fun thing for us as a family to work towards.

Anna, I love this!  I highly recommend starting a thread to share your progress, tell stories, and show pictures of the endeavor as a family.  Hooray!

Questions: 
Can BB be obtained out of order? Eg. needlefelt creature is a straw badge in textiles. 

Yes, you can go in any order.

Are there any other youth doing this?

Yes, there have been a good handful of young folks that have begun and are currently underway!    I am guessing there are way more than I am aware of.  For instance, we are using the SKIP book as one of our homeschool resources.  

Can't wait to see you all in action!

First:What the Heck does BB10 and BB20 mean?

Second: My thoughts on kids at a place like this.  
Also a single mom of 3 ages 10-17 and would love to visit a place line this for a time with my children.

My youngest is the most willing and hardest working. He's a boy. Lots of energy and curiosity.
My girls, sigh, they would rather stay inside and bake and sew with an occasional check on the flowers in the garden with a book in hand or a paint brush and canvas. They can be farm tough but they tire of it quickly.

My question for your program: do you allow for people to fall into where they enjoy the work the most, or do you require everyone to do all tasks?

Also in regards to making agreement with a minor:
My daughter has been in an employment agreement with a restaurant for a year. I have had very little to do with that agreement. When i was 9 i was an emoloyee with a contract, mowing at the establishment where my dad worked.  It happens everywhere all the time.  I don't at all see the weirdness there. You can certainly make it weird though!

Welcome to Permies, let me try to take a crack at some of your questions.

First:What the Heck does BB10 and BB20 mean?

BB10 and BB20 reference the accumulation of 'Badge Bits' by going through the Skills to Inherit Property program. To learn more about it try this link.

Second: My thoughts on kids at a place like this.  
Also a single mom of 3 ages 10-17 and would love to visit a place line this for a time with my children.

I would highly recommend the SEPPER program where you can pay to come out, stay in one of the varied lodgings, and learn/do at your pace to get the whole experience. Bootcamp is a commitment where eager individuals work on projects to help Wheaton Labs progress and do neat things. To learn more about the SEPPER program follow this link.

I think you should rent a cabin via the sepper program and then come and see what seems like a good time to you.  For now, looking into the SKIP program could be handy.