John Janssen

I have
Fantastic spring (80 litres/min,)
Pond that I can get 4' of head - so 4' water wheel - pond is spring fed and runs a 8" pipe continuous
(Yes I am blessed with lots of water)
house that is 50' above spring.

What I want to do is setup a water wheel that will run a pump underwater (-30 in the winter)

Feed will be a line from my spring and will pump to my 2000L cistern in the attic

Don't need to pump high pressure or high quantity as it will pump 24/7, "extra" water will just get dumped (remember lots of water and same aquifer)

Running 1" line from spring to Pump & 1"line to house

Envision water wheel with set of stepped pulleys to  90deg gearbox running a vertical shaft that will power the pump

Stepped pulleys so that I can play with the shaft speed easily

BTW Want min. of  20/litres hour that gives me 480 litres a day

I am not too concerned about the math as a 4' water wheel with the head & flow I have should run a pump that pumps .33/L a minute no problem.

What is the best pump to use in this situation?

I am thinking gear pump with sealed bearings?

Ideas?

Thanks, John

I have ditches & creeks running all over my property that I need to cross fairly reg with my 85 horse tractor.

I am also quite frugal. Here are a few of my methods:

1. For any size vehicle - Go to your municipality/city/township public works dept and they will sell you "used" culverts the plastic ones are best as they last forever - if you have an aversion to plastic look at it this way - you are rescuing it from the landfill and giving it a second life and if the first buyer hadn't been so evil you wouldn't be in this situation. Installation simple. throw it into the ditch and pile some dirt around it. KISS Theory.

2. For quads, small tractors, etc... - Rescue a telephone pole (is impregnated with interesting stuff so they don't rot) cut in half. Railway ties are great for this. flop across ditch 3' apart. Break down some rescued pallets for crossers - try to get the good hardwood onces.

3. Bush bridge - cut down a bunch of trees, lay them side by side, drive on.

4. for large creek & full size vehicles, tractors, hay wagons etc... Buy an old 45' flatbed highway trailer (they are cheap and they deliver) remove axles (simple 4 pins) and front jacks (bring those away for scrap weight$$). Lay some railway ties down crossways to support the trailer on both side of the creek - this keeps the trailer out of the dirt so it doesn't rot and provides stability for the main beams. If the ties are in good shape they will outlast you, want them to last longer lay them in gravel for drainage. Hill some gravel on both ends of the trailer/bridge for ramp as bridge should be about 1' or so above surrounding ground. You can do the above with a railway car as well, just harder to get/transport in my area. Or a shipping container - nice covered bridge make sure to brace if removing both ends entirely


YMMV John

Matt Powers wrote:I want a trompe powered home with cold air and water used to keep my walk-in cooler the perfect temperature (this is the ideal lol)

Matt I looked at this - trompes are awesome! What I was looking at was using a trompe for the pressure to feed a few LARGE tanks and then run the air through a vortex tube - one for the fridge and one for the freezer. (Can do -40 no prob)

ONly prob is the trompe, almost no technical data on one - the only way is build it and see how well it performs. Build is pretty simple.

Plus how cool to say, casually, I run my walk in -22 freezer off grid with a trompe - not a single moving part. (well maybe an thermostatic air valve to control the vortex tube.)

My plan was underground walk in freezer fed by vortex tube with spill over feeding adjacent fridge and that spillover feeding house (in the summer)

Alas my water volume/head is not suitable enough in my mind to undergo the install cost. So instead running a water wheel with a PMA and an electric fridge is the new plan - all plans subject to change on an epiphany.


John

Rob Bouchard wrote:Thanks for the detailed reply! I was looking at centrifuges for filtering, but your system sounds a lot cheaper and simpler. I have a dt360 in my truck and a mechanical Kubota generator.... That's why I love this plan.

Don't overthink - just do it. I sweated over it before trying it and now look back and think - man what was I thinking?

I have thought about setting up a upflow filter but can't be bothered - settling is the most important. Some of my stuff has settled for a year. Benifits of 100/acres of storage space.

Rob Bouchard wrote:Hey John I'd love to hear more about your w85 setup!

My w85 setup is very simple, once you try this you will never even dream of using veggie oil. No contest.
1. Pick up oil from small shops - they have lots and with oil prices in the toilet most are now PAYING to get rid of it - so if you take it for free they are happy and become a regular donor. I use a gear pump from home hardware ($150ish) this pump with a screen is indestructible, doesn't suck good dry so set up a "primer" line to get it wet when starting to pump - very important at -40, oil is thick.
2. let oil sit as long as possible - min a week, then drain off water/antifreeze and some chunkies
3. take empty barrel that you want final product in and put fill it 15% full with gas, if you can get bad gas from a somewhere that is great - octane is NOT our friend. Gas can be substituted with anything light that burns, kerosene, diesel, old gas, etc.. it is being used as a THINNER nothing about the boom
3. pump oil from the top of settled storage tank through through a "whole house water filter" once again home hardware. micron setting of your choice - I generally use 5mic. - tip nice to have larger storage tank than final product tank - that way you leave the heavier junk behind and it regularly gets drained out into 5 gallon pail - this is where being a pyro and having lots of bonfires comes in handy.
4. pump from final tank into your vehicle, I have another spin on inline spin on filter called a "sorb all" it filters at 5mic and removes any water acumulated as well - is huge.

Downsides:
Carbons up your cylinder heads, this can be fixed 2 ways:
1. every 5th tank run reg diesel through with a can of ocean stuff (ocean spray? can't remember name - buy on sight)
2. best way - setup a simple water injection system on your vehicle, mists water into the intake and steam cleans your engine constantly. (google water/meth injection systems)
3. buy lots of fuel filters. old oil has a detergent in it to keep your motor clean. well it does that to your fuel system too. it cleans all the varnish, gum and crap from your tank and lines and deposits everything into your fuel filter. Expect to change it out 4-5 time in the first 500kms. after that just normal schedule
4more smoke at idle in my cummins 4bt but my toyota landcruiser didn't smoke at all - why don't know.

Upsides:
Cheap.
SAving te environment, oil burn is complete, exhaust is not nasty, leaves more in the ground
Sourced locally and disposed of locally - carbon footprint savings or whatever
Doesn't gel at cold temps - no preheater on my system works at -40 in northern ontario no prob
For the prepper in you it doesn't go bad
much easier to source & pump than veggie oil
Remember this tuff has been going through a filter all its life, stuff is actually pretty clean.

Disclaimer: I run through mechanical diesels - not common rail, lots of people do but I haven't yet.

Ignore the "That will neverwork/trash your motor etc.." Doomsayers - lots of people are doing it.

Some links to get you started.

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f22/w85-274606/
http://www.powerstrokenation.com/forums/72-alternative-fuels-svo-bio-disel-wmo/102715-drmiller100s-simple-w85-thread.html

As always YMMV
jj

Dillon Nichols wrote:Yuck, that is some nasty power in your pic! I can see why one would call it square wave, even though technically it's just very dirty sine.

S Bengi wrote:I could be wrong but if you have a 5kw inverter and you have a load of 7kw. You can't just connect a generator to make up the difference. You would have to connect two inverter to get 10kW and then you can connect the generator

You're correct in that you can't expect the generator to make up the difference; rather, it's a matter of the generator taking over and providing all the power(via passthrough on the inverter), and charging the batteries with any extra. Then, if the load exceeds generator capacity, the charging will stop, and some inverters can kick in to assist the generator.

It has to happen this way around, because the inverter/s can sense the frequency of the generator output and sync their output to match, while the generator is not capable of doing this for power from the inverter. (Yet, at least; some inverter-generators can sync up to share a load between 2 generators, so I see no reason these couldn't sync to a regular inverters output, if someone wanted to implement such a feature.)

You *could* do a pair of synced inverters to provide the power, then feed them with a generator directly charging the batteries, either with DC output or through a dedicated current source... but this would be something of a cludge in comparison. In theory a nice DC battery charger would eliminate the need for both the inverter and the generator to make AC, and in some cases the need for the inverter/charger to make DC; just feed the batteries right from the DC generator, and provide all AC through the inverter. In practice, DC generators are rare birds, and either damned expensive, or backyard cludges using alternators and giving notably bad efficiency.

Sorry about double post - bratty kids of mine

THanks for the input - I am going to contact schneider and see if their zantrex line works that way.

appreciate all the help & input

John

Dillon Nichols wrote:Yuck, that is some nasty power in your pic! I can see why one would call it square wave, even though technically it's just very dirty sine.

S Bengi wrote:I could be wrong but if you have a 5kw inverter and you have a load of 7kw. You can't just connect a generator to make up the difference. You would have to connect two inverter to get 10kW and then you can connect the generator

You're correct in that you can't expect the generator to make up the difference; rather, it's a matter of the generator taking over and providing all the power(via passthrough on the inverter), and charging the batteries with any extra. Then, if the load exceeds generator capacity, the charging will stop, and some inverters can kick in to assist the generator.

It has to happen this way around, because the inverter/s can sense the frequency of the generator output and sync their output to match, while the generator is not capable of doing this for power from the inverter. (Yet, at least; some inverter-generators can sync up to share a load between 2 generators, so I see no reason these couldn't sync to a regular inverters output, if someone wanted to implement such a feature.)

You *could* do a pair of synced inverters to provide the power, then feed them with a generator directly charging the batteries, either with DC output or through a dedicated current source... but this would be something of a cludge in comparison. In theory a nice DC battery charger would eliminate the need for both the inverter and the generator to make AC, and in some cases the need for the inverter/charger to make DC; just feed the batteries right from the DC generator, and provide all AC through the inverter. In practice, DC generators are rare birds, and either damned expensive, or backyard cludges using alternators and giving notably bad efficiency.

S Bengi wrote:Your inverter produces pure sine wave electricity, where as your gennie produces square-wave electricity. A motor can handle either one but electronic have problem with 'dirty boxy' square wave, and they will either not start or malfunction/have a reduce lifespan.

Doesn't the transformer clean that up?

Dillon Nichols wrote:Hi John, welcome to permies!

This system is well outa the wattages I'm used to, so I haven't got a lot of specific advice... Interested to see how it evolves though!

While the gennie is happy to run 24/7, the less often it needs to start up the longer it should last, no? In your shoes, if it was feasible financially, I would probably try and size the system to handle everything without the gennie except welding/heavy tool use, or other short-term exceptionally heavy loads... less noise, less fumes, less pollution, less wear on the gennie, less dependence on the WMO source... more up-front money.

The other thing that comes to mind is warmup... I don't put a heavy load on a cold diesel instantly on startup, I let them warm up a bit. Do any of these inverters have some means to handle this? I suppose if it's kicking in several times every day, that will at least minimize cold starts. Hmm...


What sort of filter system do you use for your W85?

Thanks for the reponses!

Gennie has a "keep warm" option like the big trucks - will autostart to keep itself toasty if required - also ags is used as gennie will heat gennie room and battery room using gennie heat byproduct (exhasut & rad)

W85 usage is not a problem - mostly because I have too much and can always get more. Making 1800l takes about 20 minutes.

Filtering process - Let sit for month or 2 if you can, drain off bottom for barrel fires , then pump from top into mixing tank using 5 micron whole house water filter, filter again using 20 micron sorb-all spin on filter on pump. After it is mixed you CANNOT use a whole house water filter as they will melt. I use 2 4500l tanks for bulk storage, 1800l tank for mixed. and a bunch of 900l tanks for odds & sods.


Sizing is an issue that I will have to play with I think as time goes on, mostly to try to cut down gennie run time.

S Bengi wrote:Battery Bank = 48V @ 1000Ah but used so only 48V @500Ah....you don't really want to discharge below 50% so it is really 48V @250Ah, and going from 90% charged to 100% charged is really just wasting energy so it is more like 48V @ 200Ah. But that is still close to 10kWH, given the fact that you have non-stop 24hr hydro power. You are really bank night time energy to use during the awake hours the opposite of solar.

So not counting the farm shop, what is your total daily energy expenditure and that is your projected daily energy production from the microhydro (with and without estimated conversion powerloss)
Now assuming your microhydro covers your household energy usage with some left over for your farmshop. What is your farm shop WEEKLY energy usage and how much biodiesel can you make in a week.

But to answer your question, To prevent your inverter from being overloaded you are going to have to figure out your max concurrent load (microwave+washer+plasma tv+etc) and then size your inverter to thst load.

I under stand the schneider has good overage usage and that I can program when I want it to start up the gennie - say at 75% /90% load to prevent overloading the invertor - genniw will already be up and running and pumping juice.