Catherine Carney

Interesting topic (and Emily I'll be looking forward to your landrace banana project)!

Here's a link to some more Musa basjoo uses, including fiber (from stems), paper (from leaves), and medicinal/tonic: https://tryonfarm.org/share/node/346#:~:text=Used%20for%20cloth%2C%20sails%20etc,www.ibiblio.org).

I would add hawthorn to the list as well--multipurpose (wood, hedging, edible fruits for humans and wildlife) and it has a history of being used in laid hedges so it should withstand repeated cut and regrowth cycles.

Jaden, your production goals sound similar to mine, just in a larger package.

For those not familiar with Shetlands and Icelandics, both are from a group of sheep known as northern short tailed (naturally short tails, so no need for docking which is another plus in my book). I can't speak for Icelandics as far as foraging ability, but in my experience with my Shetlands they are great at using marginal forages (think brush, brambles, unimproved pastures).

When I was deciding on which breed of sheep, I worked with some Icelandic samples and found them enjoyable to spin and knit. However, knowing that I would be the only person working with the flock and wanting to do finer yarns (think sport weight or finer), I opted for the Shetland instead which tends to have finer fibers and a smaller size (ewes run 75 pounds, rams around 100). But that's what works for me and my production goals, so for anyone thinking about sheep I'd recommend figuring out what you want to do with them (fleece? meat? milk? combination? pasture clean up?) and how you want your system to work (are you going to pasture? Feed grain? Lamb in January? Bottle feed?), then go and talk with as many breeders as possible and see what breeds fit your system.

Be aware, too, that if you're looking at sheep raised in a very different system from your planned one you may find the sheep have difficulty adjusting. Case in point: one of the Shetland breeders in my area raises gorgeous animals with an emphasis on fine fleece and unusual colors and patterns. However, this flock is also on a very heavy worming schedule (lots of commercial wormers in use) and receives fairly large amounts of grain daily year round. So, the selection pressure has been away from sheep with parasite resistance and foraging ability which means that they don't do as well in my more challenging conditions of pasture with little grain and less aggressive worming schedule. So when I add an animal from that flock to my own I have to watch carefully to make sure it adjusts and be prepared to cull its offspring if they don't have the "survivability" to do well in my system.

Hope this makes sense!

Hi Ellen--

I hadn't thought of sowing buckwheat and wheat together. I may get some seed and give it a try, though given it's the end of August and our first frost is about a month away I don't know if I can do it this year. I've never heard of perennial flax, so I'll have to look that up. I do know that nettles produce a quite spinnable fiber (in fact some fine historical linens from parts of Europe are from nettle fibers rather than flax) and are perennial with the bonus of being nutrient dense foods for humans and critters as well as being a host plant for several butterfly species.

I too am looking for a rotation that lets me reduce the weed load, grow stuff for myself and the critters, and provide a useable fiber in my zone 5/6 climate on my heavy soils. It might be worth comparing notes even though our climate zones and soils are a bit different. As an aside, I grew up in zone 4 (Adirondacks) and I can't imagine what zone 3 is like--you are a hardier soul than I am!

So my current plan in the garden is to turn the sheep out to graze down the dock (have to fix the garden fence first--turned them out a couple of days ago and within 20 minutes the flock had found a hole and were happily grazing a different paddock) as short as they can get it, then turn to get the roots (which will go over the fence to them to eat and I'll save some back for a yellow dye experiment), then sow with my fall grains. I'm also seeding through the loose hay that's spread over their last paddock (leftovers from the ends of a couple of round bales) with a mix of pasture seeds including clover and chicory with some brassicas like forage turnips mixed in. I've got rain coming early next week so I'd like to get things in the ground sooner rather than later and let the water muddy everything in.

Appreciate all the information from all of you. Please keep the ideas and comments coming!

Hi May--

Great thoughts and questions!

I hadn't considered planting flax this fall as I was focused on a seed and fiber crop from it next summer. However, I may plant a bit of it just to see how it does.

You have my sympathy regarding your soil! I find that the more I can get organic matter into mine the better off I am--everything from leaves (I've been known to ask my friends in town if I can have their bagged leaves in the fall) and wood chips (the power company will drop a couple of loads of fresh chips at the top of the drive when they're trimming in the area if I ask) to poultry manure (I deep litter so it's usually pretty well broken down by the time I clean out in the spring). One good thing about my clays is that they are "sweet" soils so acidity from manure and compost isn't generally a problem....

For overseeding the pastures my plan is to scatter the seed into the mulch hay left as the sheep finish the round bales. Basically, they eat all the good stuff but leave the stems and anything that's a bit moldy which I then spread over the pastures to both provide surface cover (they're in a "sacrifice pasture" right now where I've purposely let them eat the grass down to nothing so I can reseed it) and start the seeding process with the orchardgrass and clover seeds that's in the bits of hay that they've left.

I may also play around with "frost seeding" in late winter/early spring, where I broadcast seeds as the soil starts to thaw and let the freeze/thaw cycle work them into good contact with the ground. The issue there is that for larger seeds they'll be pretty visible to birds, but we'll see.

The grain crops for me and the birds are going to go into tilled soil in the garden--turn the soil in each raised bed then broadcast and rake. I may add a light top dressing of composted wood chips just to hold in a bit more moisture, but if I time it right and do the seeding before we get a soaking rain that may not be needed. We'll see how it goes--if I've learned anything it's that my best plans are subject to change depending on the vagaries of the weather and the wildlife.

Hi Matt--

Thanks for the quick response.

Re the radishes: I suspect my sheep will eat them as I haven't found much they won't eat, and if they don't the plants/roots can still compost down and improve the soil. I know that when I've added forage turnips to my pastures in the past they've been favored by the flock, but radishes seem to have a stronger flavor at least to me.

Appreciate the info re planting the wheat (and the other grains). It jives with what I was thinking. So I'll source some winter wheat to go out in plots with the other grains this fall and hold the spring wheat until March-ish.

Hi all--

I've got some grain/pseudograin growing questions and figured the brain trust here would have answers more applicable to my small garden system than my extension agent....I'm in north central Ohio (zone 5), on heavy clay soils, though I have amended the garden with poultry manure and compost and built raised beds to improve drainage. Pasture soils are brick clay subsoil (not kidding--the original farmhouse on the road is made from bricks formed and fired on the site) with a thin layer of topsoil. So I have the following questions:

1: I am looking to overseed grains/pseudograins into the pasture to improve diversity and tilth, and I'd like to add things with taproots to break up the clay layer if I can. Parsnips grow well for me from fall sowings and are readily eaten by the sheep. I'm looking at adding forage radishes and turnips as well as chicory and clover to the pastures. Are these reasonable additions? Is fall sowing reasonable for these? Any other recommendations?

2: I also have gotten field peas, barley, oats, rye, and hard red spring wheat as possible grain crops for my and the poultry's use. I know I can sow rye as a fall crop, is the same possible with the barley and oats? Regarding the spring wheat--can I sow that in the fall as well, or is that better as a spring sown crop? And I'm assuming that field peas would also be spring sown?

3: I've also gotten flax seed--as a source of spinnable fiber as well as food source for me and the critters--and I'm assuming spring sown for that. Is this correct?

I know this is a ton of questions, and realize I have a lot to learn about these crops....All help is very much appreciated in advance!

My sheep eat goldenrod (and lots of other things including pest and introduced species like poison ivy, multiflora rose, and japanese honeysuckle) with no ill effects.

BTW, goldenrod makes not just a nice tea (in small amounts), but is a good source of a fairly bright and fast yellow green dye on wools with alum and can be used by itself for ecoprinting on silk.

A few thoughts about developing a "permies chicken:"
1: Different areas and productions systems will need different traits, so the more clarity you have about what YOU want for your system the more successful you are going to be. Because I raise two lines of show birds (large fowl Langshans and bantam quail D'Anvers), I am selecting not just for "survivability" (ie reproductive ability, longevity, parasite resistance, cold tolerance) but also for the breed standard. I still get plenty of tasty eggs and chicken from my flock, but not as much as if I were more focused on production traits. However, maintaining breeds that are otherwise in danger of dying out is worth the trade off for me.
2: As already mentioned, hatchery birds are crap. They are raised in confinement and high input (lots of grain) systems, and selected for early maturity and egg production (because that's how hatcheries maximize profits: lots of early eggs=lots of chicks hatched for sale). Nesting/mothering ability are selected against (because a broody bird goes out of lay), and longevity isn't a factor either (because most birds aren't going to be carried over past their first laying cycle). A local breeder raising birds to standard (which were developed to codify desirable traits for each breed) is going to be a much better choice. Make sure to ask about how they raise their birds though! You want stock that is being raised in something close to your conditions if possible.
3: Old "dual purpose" breeds are more likely to have the "permies chicken" genetics you want: hardiness, longevity, nesting/brooding, etc. Some breeds that come to mind are Buckeyes (pea combs so fewer frostbite issues), Wyandottes (I'm partial to the Golden Laced variety, all have rose combs that reduce frostbite issues), Faverolles (a French dual purpose breed, feathered legs with beard and muffs), and Chanteclers (a dual purpose breed developed in Canada to weather harsh winters). There are many others, but these come to mind quickly. You may also want to look at "landrace" (ex Icelandic chicken, Swedish Flower Hen) and heritage breeds that are not yet in the APA standard, but often they are  more difficult to find.
4: Be willing to start with as many young birds as you can afford, and be willing to cull to the birds that best meet your goals. Produce as many offspring each generation as you can afford to raise, and again be willing to cull heavily so you only keep the ones that best meet your standards. The nice thing with dual purpose breeds is that they are big enough to provide a couple of good meals when you put them in the freezer (though even bantams have a reasonable amount of meat and can at least make good soup stock).

These principles apply to any critter you're working with, BTW, so don't feel limited to chickens! Hope this helps!