S Tenorman

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since Dec 25, 2016
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bike greening the desert trees
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Recent posts by S Tenorman

Marco Banks wrote:Allow me to muse for a minute on the original premise in the OP of the thread:

"There are two types of people in this world now.  The kind that believe that god will punish them for being immoral, and the type that don't believe in that kind of god or any god."

I agree with you: "I don't believe in that kind of god", as you put it.  But those are not the only two options: belief in a negative vindictive god, or no belief at all.  And morality cannot be found in either of those --- not true morality.

My concern with your statement is that it seems to be written from a negative perspective.  God's character and the basis for the kind of morality that He desires is not rooted in punishment.  Rather, motivation to do good and do right is based in His good and right character.  Its based in love.  Morality is rooted in a relationship with that loving and good God.  The Bible speaks of judgement as "His strange work" --- in other words, it's not characteristic of God to be going around twacking people on the head and smiting them for bad deeds.  His character is compassionate, long-suffering (patient) and tolerant.  But there is right and wrong.  There is a moral standard, and while He shows tremendous patience, ultimately, like any loving parent or teacher or friend, there is a time where moral standards must be held and even enforced.  That's loving.

So what is God like?  Compassionate, creative, forgiving, merciful.  He invites us into deeper relationship and intimacy, which is our deepest longing as people.  Morality comes from that place, not a place of fear of punishment.  We don't do good deeds because somehow we dig deep inside ourselves and find some good place from which to do them.  We are selfish and fallen people.  Any good that I happen to do in this world flows from the loving relationship I share with my Creator, not from some goodness inherent in me.

Why did my children obey me when they were young?  Because they knew how deeply I loved them.  I told them that daily, and demonstrated that to them a million times.  Did they ever disobey?  Certainly -- every kid pushes the boundaries.  The loving thing was to correct them and make my expectations known to them.  Call that morality, if you will.  At the end of the day, my expectations for them were to see them be blessed.  To thrive.  To grow and mature and become all that they have the potential to be.  In the same way, God's desire is to see people be blessed and to enjoy a relationship with Him.  He takes no delight in punishment, any more than I did in disciplining my children.  

And now that my children are grown and emancipated, living on their own and moving forward in this world . . . why do they still obey me and the precepts that my dear wife and I taught them?  Certainly because they love us, but more so because they know intimately that God loves them and that His ways are best.  Fear of punishment has absolutely nothing to do with it.  They have experienced the love of God and nothing short of obedience to Him would make any sense for them.  It's exciting to see them grow in that love.

Let me end with this (my long-winded missive): the perception that God is somehow holding out on us and that morality is a way of keeping the best from us is so screwed up.  God's ways are right, and His standards lead to blessing.  If you see morality as some sort of negative stick by which some divine figure "up there" is waiting to hit you with, that couldn't be further from the truth.  We follow God's ways because that is the best way of life.  Why would I settle for less?  Why would I want anyone who I love to settle for less than what is best for them?  Its a broken and fallen world, not because God is somehow withholding His blessing but because humanity has chosen to go their own way, assuming that their ways are right.  

Grace to you as you continue to seek truth in all these things.  You are deeply and dearly loved.  In this broken world, there is hope in that.




Yeah, but which god?  There are so many to choose from.  While I've never personally read one page of any "bible" from any of them, I get the gist of it.
It's control.
Men like to control other men.  That's a fact of nature......so a person like me can only come to one conclusion on the topic.  God is a man made idea.

Proof in that it needs to be taught by men (nature shows her children, she doesn't write books for them to follow).  Oddly it's the region a person was born in that dictates their religion.  That region teaches what they know, and pounds it in every Sunday.   It's literally brain washing.  

The thing is, all of those things you mention above are good things to keep society under control.  If a person believes, let them believe whatever they want.  Even better if it improves their helping their fellow man out.  In no way am I saying that believing in God is bad.  It's just that a lot of things are "justified" in his name that are absolutely horrendous.  God is the ultimate man made scapegoat for his own NATURAL immorality.  Morality, is just a man made word/idea.  Really, in terms of nature based survival, it's irrelevant.  

I'm logic based, and I'll never be able to wrap my head around any man made religion being "real".   I was raised with zero religion.  My parents never spoke of it, they weren't against it, nor we they for it.  I think I have a unique perspective on the topic.
and yes, I know you know I'm wrong, and you'll prey for me.  :)  Thanks!  That's the cool part about it!

I'll briefly describe my "new found" religion since it's been brought up and it makes me smile to think of it.

Single cell, brought here by a.i.  (single cell happens to have the instruction manual encoded in it to reproduce a.i. that dropped it off)
evolves over millions/billions of years (time is irrelevant to it) and finally creates a.i. that can travel through space (the only way life can survive because the lifespan of any planet is finite)
and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over...........
I believe this, because I see it with my eyes.  It's happening right now.  It's unstoppable, and it's totally natural for us to be doing it.  We are programmed to make new technology, we can't help ourselves from building it.  

(had to come back and edit this in.  God/religion are part of the "program" in the cell that evolves.  You've got to have a well organized workforce to accomplish the task at hand.  Thus the reason religion is a constant among men of any region.  He's programmed to accept it, and become a slave to build the functional society that will eventually have the means to make the a.i.)

Feel free to join my religion.  It's totally free, there aren't any books to read, there are no membership fees or tithing, no places where you're forced to worship it, and best of all, there are no salespeople needed to SELL it.  
You walk outside, open your eyes, and do what you were programmed to do.  Enjoy it, do it, and smile.
Yeah, I actually believe that to be pretty dang close to why we're here now.  Oddly, it's this website that converted me from believing in nothing.

Anyhow, it's nothing personal.  Sorry to go so far off topic.


Back to the topic at hand (kind of),
How about a really cool song that's kind of about prepping and survival for a musical interlude to the nonsense I wrote above!

https://youtu.be/5uASQgLwaIs

Corb Lund.  Real country music.  :)
1 month ago
How about rapid climate change instead of zombies?  .What if all that melting ice triggers the tectonic plates to start moving more rapidly than we could ever imagine?  The mass of that ice moving from one specific spot and being dispersed everywhere else has got to have some kind of effect on them.  Probably not as quick as the below scenario, but nobody really knows for sure.


I've read a lot of times about the "community" aspect of survival.  Having a micro society of local neighbors and friends.  All of them doing their part to help one another in a worst case scenario situation.

Let's use the volcano scenario again.  Let's say there's twenty five like minded, well prepared households.  Let's say twenty of those households are completely displaced due to the path of the volcano.

We're not just talking about one volcano erupting, though, we're talking about a series of them going off globally.  We're talking about earthquakes in other areas destroying cities, extreme weather destroying even more areas, and even tsunamis displacing vast populations of people.  
We're talking about the sun being blocked from the sky from all of the volcanic activity, and lightening strikes lighting huge forest fires.

Let's say you're one of the five homesteads left in your community that has not been destroyed.  Your six months of supplies is literally all you've got.  Crops aren't going to grow due to the lack of sun.  Ash covers everything.  Animals are dying, and being over hunted by those who can take them.

Should you and the five other homesteads feed and shelter the other twenty displaced families (not to mention the drifters that are inevitably going to pass by needing help)?
or should the five remaining homesteads form a militia?
Would it even matter over the long haul?

I don't think it's likely that would happen, but......?  Just a thought.
1 month ago
Dang it, I didn't want this to be it's own stand alone thread.  It was merely a comment on morality from the Zombie Apocalypse thread.
I'd also like to say I'm pretty much a pacifist myself.  Never been in a physical fight of any sort ever, and try to work things out through logic/reason.  People constantly tell my I'm too nice.  I'm a true believer in self sufficiency, and live it more than most (most permies/homesteaders/preppers have me beat my a mile, I'm talking about the general public).  My least favourite people are those that prey upon and use weaker people for their own survival.  They make me sick.  
They exist, though, even in this fantastically moral society.
 

As for an atheist not being able to be moral that's been inferred from my initial comment, it's not what I meant.  It's that a lot of religious people (I think) feel compelled by their god to always be moral.  There will be punishment if they behave in an immoral way.  (what was written in the original post of this thread was in reference to someone who was preaching morality above all else)

An atheist self imposes their morality (which most certainly I believe is what nature has programmed into her children (with the exceptions I noted above)).  
Atheists are moral, I know, because I know I'm moral.  My views have changed regarding religion (and they are radical compared to what the masses think), but I was as an atheist, and still am now, very moral.  I'm moral, because I live in a very nice society that isn't in a mode of panic.  It's fantastic that almost everyone in such a society is moral.  It all goes to hell when it stops being moral......kind of like in a zombie apocalypse situation where survival supersedes morality.  

When someone has a god that demands morality, teaches them to turn their cheek, and prey to him/her to step in to take control of a bad situation, it SEEMS to me like that would be a hindrance compared to someone who isn't bound by such "rules".  Someone who's morality fits within their current circumstance, rather than their mandated belief system, seems to be better equipped psychologically to deal with DOING WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO SURVIVE.  My guess is that an atheist would have an easier time loosening up on their morality.  That's just a guess.

Again, my comment was in reference to someone who basically said if you didn't take the time to "prepare", you should perish for the sake of remaining moral.......  The point of my comment was to make that person THINK that there are other possible reasons why a person(s) might become desperate, and do desperate things for the sake of their, and their family's survival.  

Poopoo happens, even to the most prepared, most moral people.

Okay, hopefully that clears up my being a jerk.  (probably not though)

:)







1 month ago
On the topic of morality.

There are two types of people in this world now.  The kind that believe that god will punish them for being immoral, and the type that don't believe in that kind of god or any god.

I used to be an atheist, but now I'm the type that believes nature is god.  Not the kind of god that makes a list of the naughty and nice things a person does, but more the kind that provides a world for all the living things she made to thrive in.  She has to keep her house in order sometimes, thus the random volcano, earthquake, hurricane, or maybe even a zombie apocalypse disaster that takes some innocent lives (of any animal, not just the human type).

She's a good example of "morality when possible, or realistic".  

The example I see from nature is that animals kill one another all the time for survival.  Most of the time, animals are actually pretty moral from what I've seen.  When it comes to territory, food, or mates, it's a different story.  
Fighting, stealing, and killing are fairly regular occurrences when it comes to those things.

Ross Raven, the guy talking about "adapting" to things in the other similar thread, is correct about being able to "adapt".
I'd suggest one be able to adapt "morally" to situations.  If they want to survive in the long run.

A quick example could be a family of preppers who did everything right.  They stock piled six month's worth of food, they had a lush bountiful garden, and they had everything they needed to survive, and keep living.  
Maybe a volcano erupts nearby, and a flow of lava comes creeping right through their plot of land before they have any time to get to their supplies.
Four weeks later, they're starving to death, homeless, one of their four children has already died of starvation, the other three can barely travel, the husband is ill, and injured incapable of traveling.........
Then there's the prepper down the road who won't share anything, but also has six months of stored food.
I do not believe for one second, that morality has a damn thing to do with anyone in that situation.  and, I use a woman for the example because I know enough to know that a man might walk away.  Mama bears look after their kin.

So, again, there are some that would die of starvation and go to heaven........
and there are some that would live...........

Morality becomes more fluid, I'm guessing, the closer one gets to dying.
1 month ago

Nicole Alderman wrote:Maybe a forum called "Farewells" or "Remembrances"? We could restrict it to just animals, or maybe open it up to the passing of humans, too?

If you can find 20 threads that are about the passing of animals, I could probably get this forum made.

Question: Do we want this forum to be only for animals, or for humans, too? Would having human obituaries with the animal ones make people less likely to share their mournings?




Yeah, those are good titles for a subject like that.

Ohm, I guess there could be one for "critters" since that was the main forum I was talking about, and then another under wherever would be best for "humans".  Or just a general area under no specific critter/human existing forum.   The Permies.com forum has introductions......maybe "Farewells" should be in the same one?  

I don't think things through, I just spew them out as they come to mind.  

I just did a few searches, and can't really find any threads other than a recent one that made me think it could be a subject/forum.  Maybe it's not an area that's needed.


How about an obituary subforum, or whatever it's called?  Just a place for people to write about their lost pets.  It seems therapeutic if nothing else.
1 month ago
:(

Just read your original post, and the day.
1 month ago

Tyler Ludens wrote:Looking good!  The pillbugs might stop being a problem once you get enough soft moist mulch for them to eat.  I have bazillions of pillbugs also, but find they much prefer to eat rotting vegetation than healthy plants (even seedlings).  



Mr. Ludens, first of all, THANKS!

but man, I've got the pill bug blues.  lol  I hope you're right because they completely devastated me early this year in my wood chip topped gardens.  I had to resort to cups with the bottoms cut out placed over every seedling if I wanted it to make it.  They girdled my transplanted tomatoes that were a couple of feet tall, and had a 1/4" main stem.  Ugh, I'm sick of the pill bugs!

Okay, the project is mainly done.  Not too bad for an hour last night, and several hours today.  This new garden bed is basically 100% wood now.  Solid wood on the bottom, chipped wood in the middle, and wood compost on the top.

The compost was too moist for me to sift through the hardware cloth, so the end result is more woody than I was wanting, but I've seen other people grow in similar compost and they seem to have good results.
I had the compost analysed, and it came in with a ph of 8.4 so I sprinkled a bunch of sulfer on top of the first layer which was a couple of inches deep, and then put some more of the lawn fertilizer on top of that.

The final layer of compost came from the very bottom of the coop, so it was the most broken down.  It also got sulfer sprinkled on top, and I used about 1/3 of a bag of ecoscraps leafy greens fertilizer sprinkled on top of that.

Tomorrow I'll put a little dog fence around it, and maybe plant all of the garlic bulbs I have saved up.

The oddball picture of the shovel, and garbage can is what's left in the chicken coop.  I was thinking this was going to use up a lot more than it did.  There's still tons left!  Not a bad thing.....except for my back.  It sucks carrying all of that up stairs in a pale.




1 month ago
I was going to start a new thread, but it probably is better to put it in this one.

Just moved an rv that was parked over this spot in my yard.  It gets sun all day so it's in a good location for another bed.   This is the first time I've attempted the "hugel" type of bed.

Started with plain old clay with no rocks surrounded by concrete.  The level of the clay was about two or three inches below the level of the concrete.

I dug two parallel trenches about ten inches deep, and piled the dirt up down the middle (where I'll be walking, the bed is about 80" wide).

I then framed the outside with scrap 2x4's I had laying around.  (The whole project actually happened because I'm trying to clean up some things around the house.)

Then I packed the clay up to level with the 2x4's, and sloped it into the about 12" deep trench.

Then, I put some Dr. Earths lawn fertilizer down on the clay.  ???  I don't know, it was super cheap on clearance last year, and is high in nitrogen.  I figured it couldn't hurt.

Then I put in a bunch of scrap 2x4's that were leftovers from prior projects.  I'd been saving them for years.........but never found much use for them.  Figured it was better than burning them.  A little bit of unused small pieces of sheetrock also went in.

Then a bunch of tree trimmings that were too large to throw in the chicken coop.

Then I threw in a wheelbarrow of river rock, just because I wanted to get rid of the rock........I don't know, maybe it'll be good for minerals.......

Then another round of the Dr. Earth's lawn fertilizer.

Then I started putting the coarse wood chips from my chicken coop on top of all of that.  It's been in the coop for a year, but it's still large chunks of wood.

Currently, I'm watering it in.

I will, after I'm done taking my break writing this, then start sifting the material in the coop with a 1/4 screen of hardware cloth, and top the bed off with that.  

It currently sits just above the concrete level, but a couple of inches below the top of the 2x4's.

I'll try to overfill the bed because I'm assuming it'll sink a bit as the voids are filled in.

I'll post the finished pictures after I'm done.

I'm thinking of planting garlic in the entire bed.  I have chronic pill/sow bug issues so I don't think I can get away with planting anything from seed that they'll like.  Sluggo Plus isn't even working for me here.  I'm talking millions upon millions of the pill bugs......ugh.

1 month ago