Amedeo Nofal

I cannot see photos, that's a pity... Im curious

Anyways, this is the post related to the forest farm I'm designing if you want to check

https://permies.com/t/157739/Creating-forest-farm-thoughts-ideas

@skandi rogers

Thank you for your important points, I'm taking those seriously, and mostly you are right, especially when scaling up... Yet I have to say that I worked for a 10acres vegetable farm, providing vegetable for some organic shops, and many times we were harvesting just some part of the bed, sometimes even harvesting in a way that was close to foraging... Doesn't mean anything but it's possible, it depends

I must find the proper way to follow your suggestions

I finally made some decisions about beds design

I will start with 80-45 bed-path size and 7 market garden beds between tree rows... As the time goes and trees grow, i will probably eliminate the garden beds close to trees

I will try to keep the light curve in order to follow the flow of the big design, if i find it harder to manage a curvy bed, i will straighten the beds... But i hope it will not be harder to manage

Ok... I will start with 80-45 bed-path size and 7 market garden beds between tree rows... As the time goes and trees grow, i will probably eliminate the garden beds close to trees

I will try to keep the light curve in order to follow the flow of the big design, if i find it harder to manage a curvy bed, i will straighten the beds... But i hope it will not be harder to manage

here i will try to summarize important traits for a succesful farmer/farm

1)LOVE
if you don't love what you do, even achieving the sky is worthless. Do something you love and put love in everything you do - dedicate time and effort

2) MOTIVATION
without, it's hard to get far

ATTITUDE
-Bill Mollison would spend 3hours to sharpen his axe and one to fell the tree, it's wise to well think and get prepared for what you are going to do, i agree, but the opposite is also true: the experience you get from felling that tree is extremely valuable, don't underestimate it. the experience of doing is what makes you grow... i suggest to constantly repeat this process: think/learn, act, think/learn, act

-anything you do, do it well, don't just try to make it as quickly as possible, and at the end of the work, make sure it is well done

-be patient, don't rush it

MARKETING
-understand who is your costumer, understand the target and what he needs, then you can understand how to fulfill those needs, if you are good at fulfilling somebody's needs you are in business

-understand your niche

-find the right costumer: having the most natural and Healthy produce is useless where people can't afford it and just look at the price.

-sell something that is worthy to be sold: if you can grow potatoes but you just have an acre, it's probably not worthy. Rethink the idea


FINANCIAL PLANNING
-use debt, only if you can multiply the value. some people are able to use good debt, they invest money they don't have and create infrastructure to generate more money than they have spent. Imagine you buy a cheap land, or a tractor, or a greenhouse... It's expensive, but It will repay if you can manage what you've bought

-ask for a loan only if it is easy to pay it back: I'm not feeling good at spending money i don't have, maybe I'm not entrepreneurial enough, but if I ask for money i must be sure I can repay. sadly, the only thing I'm sure of, is that nothing is sure, so I ask myself: if my tractor get stolen, how easy is it too repay it? If i am not able to produce can I still pay back?  So my strategy here is to ask for a loan if you are easily able to pay back anyways

-understand how to correctly trade time for money or money for time

-try to buy things that are inexpensive but effective
-personally I try to buy second hand stuff that are still good, and my rule of thumb is: will I be able to sell this item back for almost the same price?
-invest time in learning how to make objects and fix them. Sometimes it's worthy, others, it's not and it's easier to bring your machine to a professional


ORGANISATION

-Planning helps stop mistakes, you'll still make mistakes but hopefully they will show up earlier.

-start small and grow both on area grown, plant types, customers and your expectations.

FOCUS
Curtis stone suggests to focus on few things even if we like too many and we want to do everything, he suggests to make few things with great care rather than the opposite (i keep mistaking right here)

SKILLS
invest in the right skills: make a course, do internships, visit farms, read books... Also understand what are the important skills, it's common to see a farmer at a course to learn farming. It's less common to see him attending a marketing class... But in my opinion they have same importance

KNOWLEDGE
Knowledge is built after successes and mistakes, don't fear to fail, it's just part of the experience


SCALE OF PERMANCENCE

-some things are hardly to impossible to change, think to them twice

-Position, you can be a rock star farmer but if your farm is in the middle of the Sahara there's nothing you can do. and positioning is the one thing you can do nothing about after you start. - though - some people like to go very far for something they like, or they look for something far away different from what is familiar to them, they may also look for some exotic product or lonley place... others look for something convenient or familiar

- my general understanding is that if you are close to costumers, if you want, you can produce many different things to sell directly or even indirectly, if instead a farm is placed far from costumers, its average strategy is to get specialized at one thing, and probably that farm is getting some certification like "organic" to increase the market value of the produce

-think of soil, aspect, climate and most importantly access to customers.


REASONS WHY FARMS FAIL
(Curtis stone reasons)
-treating your farm not as a business, not managing it like a business, not getting datas, not doing analysis. If you want to farm, is generally not just for money, yet you should be entrepreneurial to make it work and grow

-ideology sometimes goes too far, creating obstacles... Try to be practical first. In time you can fine tune with your ideology, but don't expect all at once. Sometimes you have to make trades. Sometimes even starting from conventional agricoltore is ok... I've personally seen people wasting a lot of money trying to start with permaculture, with a lot of faith... I've seen them failing and I've seen them changing point of view and approaching farming making compromises between organic and conventional, they are now getting better and getting closer to their ideology.

-pursuing low-end market streams

-have the right equipment, don't think you can create a business out of nothing, evaluate what to invest in

-wanting to do it all... Yes that's me 🤣
I can't focus on one thing and doing that one correctly before doing a second thing. This is kinda embedded in permaculture itself... It's an ecosystem, it's complex, it's "wholesome"(don't know if it's the right term)... Permaculture is huge and amazing... But please start simple (speaking to myself)

"If I had four hours to fell a tree i'd use three to sharpen my axe"

This is what i was readig 2 years ago in Mollison's book. Since then I spent my time reading, studying, watching videos, doing internships.
It's now time to fell the tree.

I've moved on my land 5 months ago, I've given my boss the notice: i'm quitting my 9to5 job in 40 days. Every day i get closer to that moment I feel more and more this question rising through me: "will I be able to live on my own, will I be able to create a successful farm?"

This kind of journey isn't definitely just about me, many have been there and many more wil be there,
so...if it's possibe, I'd like some help in breaking down the formula for a successful farm , in order to use this thred as a guide for those who are creating a farm and would like to make the right step and take the right decision. I'm sure there is no actuale recipe, this is either scary and amazing, but i'm also sure that keeping in mind some basic rules and suggestions may be helpful.

I realise that many kinds of skills and attitudes are important in this jurney, i will try to write some from my own experience, just for me to bear in mind... if somebody has more experience than me, then his words are welcome

Ok, then i misunderstood...

Ok, i don't know the exact English meaning... In my opinion that's just another way of harvesting, that depends on how you sell... Since i intend to sell to families, my preferred way of harvest is small quantities, during a long period, of the best quality i can get. You say this is called foraging, it's ok

I don't really care for minimising at all costs time spent harvesting, since i prefer to collect little and constantly, having the way to get what is fully ripe and delicious, in order to get the maximum value when selling fresh veggies. Storing is a cost and it generally lower the value of my produce.

If nature is like an organism, let's say like a fig tree, i come and i forage some, the best I can find, that promotes the energy of life to flow to other fruits/veggies/plants that need energy to ripen their produce. My disturance in the system also help to promote more production... Like when you pick a salad leaf... I can either pick a salad plant, all the plants nearby will have access to more energy and more space

Thanks for sharing!

Abraham Palma wrote:
If one thing I have learned, is that you learn by doing samples. You can read all the theory you want, ask as many questions as you like, you will not get to understand until you really get your hands dirty. My first bed is not bad, but watching how it performed taught me a lot, so next bed was better. The new one should be even better (maybe not). I know you want a thoroughly plan for your land, but you are not yet in a position to make it. People in this forum usually reccomends a couple of years watching your land and trying things before commiting to a definite plan. Maybe you will want to plant your trees farther away later to let more space for your annuals, but you can't know right now (moving your tree rows is not as easy as moving your market garden beds). And you won't know until you try. Even if you have farming experience, each land is different and takes time to know it.

I absolutely agree with you. Actually I was never a farmer or a gardener, so far i used the "studying" approach, i started 2 years ago and I read/watched material coming from different people and perspective. I also did some internship and visited farms.

You are right about the trees... But mainly i wanted to live in a forest and of a forest... So, planting trees is what i like to do the most and i cannot postpone... I'm also getting some fun making garden beds... And when it comes to wedding it's challenging since i have to face my worst thoughts

What do you exactly mean by foraging coltures? Everybody does that if it's needed...no!? And of course if it's not needed i can take a nap

I wish just not to become another underpaid farmer, i actually aim to being overpaid, let's see if it's possible, at this moment i just aim to start having some crops and experience, than to get some families to serve and get paid. Then point to high income crops.... It's a long way.

With your opinion in mind I'm going toward a 80-45 bed-path design, it makes me happy since the bed is not too narrow and yet not too wide to manage.
7 beds means a dense design and no one inch is wasted, sounds good.
Path is ok but i should find places for some wider pathways.
You are kinda right when you tell me to stay away from trees, it may make sense, and yet it's not mandatory, I'll probably not follow that piece of advise. But a wise person would probably make the larger paths around the tree rows, sorrounding the 7bed veggie plot...

Abraham... May i ask you what is your background or what are you doing and what are your personal choices in your garden

Anyways, i did not consider 120cm beds, they are not very practical imo, especially for farming, even if i like the idea of polycolture and i will try to farm that way as much as possible.

Also I did not consider rows. But i feel that a 80-90cm bed is roughly equal to 3 rows without taking so much space for paths and without being impractical as you work on it.

Remaking beds doesn't sound very practical to me, i don't have a tractor and i should pay a neighbor, if I really have to do it, i will, but i prefer to keep the stratification and the soil quality i worked hard for

So, my personal thoughts are based on the fact that I want to farm and I want to garden... Ideally i want to be doing both at the same time, but let's be practical... what  should i consider first?

Convenience
-i should prefer a wider path, but many market gardeners are using 45cm, i think that it should be ok... If it's not i can easily change the bed-path ratio to 70-55cm where I need

Optimum use of space
-I personally prefer an 85 or 90cm bed, i love this size, i believe that it maximises the use of the space and it's practical as well

I find myself in the situation to have limited choice of size even if i have plenty of space.

I have to set a market garden between rows of trees, these rows ar 10mt away from eachother, i have no real concern about  sunlight since I'm in zone 9, trees are to be kept dwarf/semidwarf size and orientation is N-S

Between 2 rows of trees I can chose to have 5 market garden beds or 7

If i chose to have 7, the space i have allows me to chose a bed/path ratio of 75/50cm or 80/45cm or 85/40cm or 90/35cm

If I go for 5 rows i may have a ratio of 1m/68cm or 90/78 cm. But i feel like I'm wasting space, even if i have a lot...

What is your suggestion? Is 1mt wide too much for a market garden bed? Is 70cm actually wasted for a path?

On the other end is 40cm enough for a wheelbarrow?

Thanks for your opinion