David N Black

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since Mar 29, 2021
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Recent posts by David N Black

That thing looks amazing Pearl!  Can't wait to hear how it fires!
2 years ago

Beau Davidson wrote:David.  This is cool.

Wanna come back next year for the PTJ and tag-team some gravity-powered lighting with me?



Heya Beau,

Yes!

Schedule permitting, pencil me in for that.  I'll keep an eye out for some tiny gear boxes.
2 years ago
Thread necromancy!

This is great Bert, and I am only about halfway through reading your thread on the classiccampstoves forum (which is a real treasure trove in itself that I had never been to).  I did not realize there was such a following around those little stainless TLUDs, but count me as part of that cult.  Mine is finally giving up the ghost after years of use, I wonder if there is any difference between the different brand names slapped on each one?  Looks like the Lixada one you got was a bit different, any recommendations?

I love the quest to stop sooting up the pots and to fully burn the CO, especially for any type of confined space usage.  The quarter inch of soot buildup on my pot that they were teasing me about over in the tin can post was almost entirely from using one of these TLUDs.  Since the soot reaccumulates so quickly, I gave up on ever cleaning it and just carry around a large plastic container for the stove and sooty pans and kindling and whatnot (it is actually a kitty litter container with a flappy door cut into it).

I am curious about any further progress on the ondol.  The idea seems perfect for the space you describe and I imagine the cold weather is setting back in right about now.  I don't know if this is a dumb idea or not, but rather than finding one happy medium material that balances insulative and emissive properties, how about a composite of two where you vary the proportions?  I am thinking something along the lines of a highly insulative brick or porous stone for the bulk of it, and then some intentional thermal bridging of angle iron that also provides the structure...  Hmm maybe tile on top of the angle iron to prevent burns and insulate a bit more... Hmm...  I'm not sure.

Thanks for posting the scientific papers and other pdfs from your research, I have a lot of reading to do.
2 years ago
MoPID post 23 for Sept 30, 2022

A million unfinished projects!  Spent most of the day packing the car and cleaning Dogstar, then had movie night with the boots.  Here are a bunch of the things I tried that didn't quite make it to finished projects.
2 years ago

Coydon Wallham wrote:

David N Black wrote:A simpler way to say this would be: almost all improvements require trade-offs.  The more complex a system is, the harder it is to foresee all of the trade-offs, which is why so many large scale interventions have disastrous side effects.


That chimes with a quote that's been running through my head more and more lately, "intent and consequence are rarely coincident." Can't recall exactly where it is from, but refuse to Google such things.

Only 2 more days- do you take life hack requests? Wondering if you know anything about cleaning up the exterior of a pot...



Hahaha, I clearly don't have much expertise in the pot cleaning field, but you're right it is something I should try to life hack.
2 years ago

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:Haha, those are fun to play with -- love the graveyard of prototypes.

I find that anything smaller than 4L/1 gal is just a pain. A recycling depot near restaurants will have tons of big tin cans.

My go-to for this sort of thing is the steel baskets inside the old-style stovetop vegetable steamers. Some are enameled, some are stainless steel. I scrounge them for free from the local recycling station. Perfect size and design, ready to go.



Oh good call, I'll keep an eye out for those!
2 years ago
MoPID post 22 for Sept 28, 2022

Tin Can Camping Stove (with some optimization talk)

https://permies.com/t/192672/Tin-Camping-Stove-optimization-talk

Ha ha!  You thought you'd seen the last of the failed tin can camping stove from the beginning of the month?  Well it's back with an extremely verbose post and it works better than ever... just before the end of the month, phew.

2 years ago
At first blush it might seem like a waste of time to make a tin can stove perform optimally.  Same at second and third blush, but somewhere around seventh blush some benefits may start to appear.  This was more an exercise in optimization using available waste materials than anything else, and it presents a good opportunity to talk about optimization in general.

Optimization is not usually the same thing as improvement.  In almost all things we deal with in the modern world, there is little room for objective improvement but there is almost always space for optimization to the specific situation.  A simpler way to say this would be: almost all improvements require trade-offs.  The more complex a system is, the harder it is to foresee all of the trade-offs, which is why so many large scale interventions have disastrous side effects.

Fortunately a tin can stove is a pretty simple system so I am not too worried about collateral damage.  So lets do a quick top-level run through of how and why to design and optimize something:

1. Identify a need:
- Here I needed a stove that could be continuously fed fuel for extended cooking compared to my small gasifier camp stove.

2. Lay out design goals (in rough order of importance):
A. An efficient low-smoke burn
B. Continuous fuel feed
C. Minimal cuts and easy assembly to make it reproduceable by others
D. Minimal tool requirements

3. Initial designs and prototypes:
- First I tried the rocket-y type design with a miniature J-tube and two cans.  This turned out to be too complex to cut and assemble and reverse-chimneyed too easily, it also had a clunky flame spreader at the top.  The extra can used for the flame spreader made the whole thing less stable as well, and I realized a primary design goal should have been "Stable base that can support a heavy cast iron pan".
- I used a larger diameter tin can for the upper chimney and it became more stable, but the connection points to the heat riser were pretty thin.  Tin cans are actually steel cans with a thin plating of tin, so they tend to corrode quickly at high temperatures.  This made me realize another design goal: "As durable as possible for a tin can (reduce small joints)".
- I tried to make another J-tube type from scratch using another pair of cans directly nested together, but it simply didn't function well at all.

4. Iteratively assess design goals:
- New priority list after initial prototypes (changed order of importance):
A. A stable cooking surface that could handle the weight of a large cast iron pan
B. An efficient low-smoke burn
C. Continuous fuel feed
D. Reasonable durability within the constraint of still using a tin can
E. Minimal cuts and easy assembly to make it reproduceable by others
F. Minimal tool requirements

5. New prototypes with updated design goals:
- Switching back to a single can seemed the best way to satisfy design goals A, D, and E, so I went that route.  The classic tin can stove with a door cut in one face seemed like a good starting point.
- Initially I used a triangular punch-type can opener to make a bunch of exhaust holes near the top of the can.  This was still not enough cross-sectional area for the exhaust flow though, and I could tell that by how much smoke would appear when a pot of water was set on top of the stove.
- In order to figure out how much additional area was needed, I held the pot of water over a clean-burning flame and lowered it closer and closer to the stove until smoke started appearing.  After trying this a few times, it seemed that at least 25cm² of additional cross section were required.
- What ended up being the final prototype used three large triangular cuts at the top (leaving the upper rim intact to maintain hoop strength) that were folded in toward the center, and an air and fuel-feed door cut in the front near the bottom.  The large tabs folded in seemed to deflect quite a bit of heat from the cooking pot though (and made it hard to load fuel from the top), so I ended up curling them over and upward to create a slightly elevated 3-point top surface above the upper rim, adding a bit more exhaust cross-section in the process.

6. Final product (at least for now):
- Starting with a 24oz tin can, though other sizes should work as well, six cuts with knife are performed to create three inverted triangular tabs just below the top rim (roughly 6cm wide and 4cm tall).  These tabs are rolled inward and then up above the rim so they make a top cooking surface about 1 cm above the rim.  A door of about 6cm square is then made on the side of the can near the bottom using three cuts, such that it folds outward about its bottom edge.
- Checking it against design requirements:
A. The single can with a complete upper hoop and three point-mounting is very stable
B. With dry wood, the stove produces almost no smoke while operating with a pot of water on top
C. Stick fuel can be fed in the front continuously, and an initial charge of larger fuel can be loaded from the top as well
D. Sections of thin metal cross-section have been minimized so durability should be pretty good, but this should still be tested and perhaps improved if possible
E. Nine total cuts and four folds are required for the whole thing
F. A reasonably sharp pocket knife is the only tool required

Persistence is maybe the most important part of this process, most things are failures for the first few iterations. "Never do anything for the first time, it will be so much faster and smoother on the second or third" - was a favorite saying of an engineer I used to work with.

So hopefully you and I can both make great tin can stoves in the future if the situation ever calls for it, and maybe some of the optimization process outlined here can help out on other projects as well.  One thing I found interesting about the stove problem specifically is that the exhaust area needs to be considerably larger than the air intake area when a heat sink (like a pot of water) is added to the top of the stack.  This one ended up with about 20cm² of air intake when sticks are loaded and roughly 40cm² of exhaust area; so 2:1 to get a smokeless burn.

This is part of the MoPID series of permaculture innovations that I am working on during my time at Wheaton Labs.  Check out the thread if you'd like to follow along.
2 years ago
MoPID post #21 for Sept 26, 2022

Eat more leaves (even if you are a human)

https://permies.com/t/192590/Eat-leaves-human

This was inspired partially by the goats, Pepper and Angel, and partially by the fact that I have been trying to keep my diet balanced without the use of a refrigerator.  There are so many plants with edible leaves that are essentially forgotten by our modern culture... but nothing has actually changed since ancient times; they are still edible today.

2 years ago
I don't know what the demographic breakdown is for permies forum readers, but I am guessing at least fifty percent humans?  Maybe even more, hard to say.  I do know, however, that many humans don't view plant leaves as a potential food unless said plant leaf is available in a grocery store like lettuce, cabbage, spinach, kale, chard, etc.  Unfortunately I was one of those humans until relatively recently, and I am still in the process of unlearning that bizarre modern myth.

There are plants with edible leaves all around you, well probably.  If you are one of the alien readers living in space, things might be a bit tougher.  Same if you live in the middle of a very dense city or in the deep ocean, but otherwise you should be good.  Like all posts about foraging, this one comes with the caveat: make sure you identify the plant precisely and verify its edibility.  Once you have done that, eat only a small amount at first, then wait a day and make sure your system doesn't have any issues with it.  With that out of the way, time to get cooking.

Leafy greens have a terrible shelf life unless refrigerated.  During my stay at the Dogstar Cabin on Wheaton Labs, I haven't had the facilities to keep them fresh, so I have to turn to what's available in the forest.  Having spent a lot of time with the animals up here (sheep, goats, horses, and geese), I noticed that they have a definite preference for the leaves of certain plants over others.  They will strip every serviceberry and wild rose plant bare before taking a bite of knapweed, Oregon grape, or ninebark.

I looked up those two plants from the Rosacea family and found that the leaves are edible on both of them (this is the case with a lot of that family).  Neither one has much flavor, which is actually a very good thing.  I started chopping them finely and adding them to fried potatoes, beans, and spaghetti.  After they are cooked for a couple minutes, they become relatively tender and are hardly even noticeable in those dishes.  I think each could make up a quarter of the dish and I wouldn't even know it if I ate it while blindfolded.

The taste of wild-foraged leaves may range from nothing to bad to quite good.  They may not always be candidates for a meal in themselves, but mixed in with other flavorful ingredients they can still provide all the nutritional benefits of eating leafy greens.  Douglas fir grows abundantly around here, and the new needles have a pretty strong flavor on their own.  Chopping the needles finely and mixing them with coffee grounds before brewing though makes a drink that I am really starting to like that also provides vitamin C and is hardly any additional work.  If you come across some leaf (that you are certain is edible) with a taste that's not great, consider first if the flavor is just unfamiliar and then think about ways it could be combined with other flavors to make something good.  Most edible herbs are pretty objectionable when eaten on their own and raw.

With a plant identifier app and the Plants for a Future website you might be surprised at how many things growing around your house have edible leaves, I certainly was.  This feels like a vital part of ancestral knowledge of the land that has been largely lost in modern civilization.

This is part of the MoPID series of permaculture innovations that I am working on during my time at Wheaton Labs.  Check out the thread if you'd like to follow along.

Also, here's a quick list of just some plants that qualify.

2 years ago