Lynn Cheshski

Oh and I assume you already called the sheriff due to threats. You said they threatened you with retaliation if you had called animal control. That's some serious stuff. It will be your words against theirs if something happens down the road. I'd go to the sheriff's office and make a report. They need to know what's  going on. I had to involve sheriff in the past and haven't heard from the offenders ever since. Unless you're in a kind of place where you're the outsider and everyone else is related (to the sheriff too, lol)

Heather Sharpe wrote:I'm really at a loss here and hoping someone has a solution or at least some helpful perspective. Our neighbors are not responsible to or for their animals. Their two dogs, who are very active by nature, are kept penned up in a small kennel 24/7. They don't walk them or let them out. They bark endlessly at passers by on the public foot path next to the house. I don't mind the noise, more the reminder that these poor dogs are being neglected and unable to exercise and play like they need to. Naturally, the dogs escape every chance they get, which is increasingly often, multiple times a week. We have caught and returned their dogs more times than I can count, often at times and in situations that were very inconvenient for us. Other neighbors have done the same. One of the dog's has been injured from her hijinks. Their people seem not to care or make any real effort to give the dogs what they need to stop escaping. Frankly, I feel like I'm betraying the dogs by taking them back when I catch them in my yard, but don't know what else to do.

I am becoming concerned too because these dogs have a serious drive to chase things and I fear they will start harassing our chickens. The birds are in a cattle panel high tunnel, covered with hardware cloth. So it's unlikely the dogs could actually get to them, but I fear they're wound up enough to try and either way, it would certainly stress the chickens. We would like to eventually have a fenced area the chickens could go into while we are outside with them, but with these dogs (and their cats, too) loose, I fear we will never be able to do that safely.


I really don't know what to do. Talking to these people seems useless and possibly dangerous. We tried that with their cats that constantly wander over here and immensely stress out our cat and kill wild birds. I worry about them hurting the chickens too. They started yelling at us and said that if I asked them to control their animals anymore or called animal control, they would retaliate in some fashion. I really don't know how to deal with that kind of behavior. But I know I don't like just letting them cross all my boundaries either.

...

We don't have the ability to build a fence around the whole property right now, as we have many projects we need to be working on. Even if we could, I don't know that it would help,  as these dogs are pro fence jumpers and diggers. It would have to be six feet or more to even stand a chance, and that height is not permitted on the side facing the road, which is right across from the dogs' house. Not much point making a fence if they can jump the most accessible portion.

We have to find a way to keep our chickens safe and be able to give them the extra space they deserve. Some way to help these dogs have a better life too would be ideal. If anyone has suggestions about how to handle this, I would be most appreciative.

Can build mobile chicken coop on wheels to move chickens around to fresh patches.

Yes, talking to those people seems dangerous, sounds like druggies....
I would have moved, honestly, because these neighbors sound like they can pose a lot more problems than just dogs down the road....and I'd closely watch the community where moving to.
Like I said above, I think HOA/POA or just restricted land communities are a good option, where there're actual regulations to protect the resident and sometimes there's board that can fine the offenders.
You can have chickens and small livestock in those places but people must have their pets confined and prevent them from excess barking. There're usually less trashy people who move to those places, I think, and a lot are second home owners, etc, so there're less potential for neighbor problems (unless you're the offending neighbor yourself who disrespects others' right to peaceful enjoyment, then you get a problem).

Su Ba wrote:
An answer that won’t work for you but it did for me…..I got a donkey who hated loose dogs. She has killed several over the years. . They are always hunting dogs going after my sheep. The donkey runs them down and kills them. Sounds brutal, but pre-donkey I had dozens of sheep maimed and killed by hunting dogs.  Plus two horses killed by those dogs too.

I love this "solution". Had a chance to see an army of 3 pet donkeys in action, they don't mess around (in my case though, I only witnessed chasing, not any killing of dogs). But, unless you already have existing livestock operation, then you have extra responsibility to care for the donkeys, extra expenses on veterinary care, farrier, and possibly feed, and may be extra fencing expenses.

I posted my thoughts to "Keeping the dogs off your property thread". I happened to have lived in a lot of rural places, and also spent long time traveling full time staying in rural places in short term rentals, where I observed all kinds of "neighbor/dog situations". I came to the conclusion that in some places you just get trashy neighbors, who will either abuse animals or will let them loose on your property, or both. They will not spray/neuter their animals too and make the offspring suffer or will kill them. This trash can be dangerous to deal with, especially if a person asserting their rights is living alone and the drugs are often involved. These people are beyond comprehension of anything that's reasonable and often have prison waiting for them. I decided I want to avoid rural ghetto situations alltogether and to stick with covenants and restrictions type of rural acreage communities, hopefully with POA/HOA board too. These often allow small scale agriculture for personal use.
These usually limit number of dogs per property, prohibit dogs at large, excessively barking dogs, etc. It can be stressful and risky to deal with trashy druggie or entitled jerk type of neighbors and I would rather have POA/HOA deal with that, or at least have covenants behind me if I take them to court, which is a guaranteed win once I get proof of camera.

Lorel Kom wrote:Hey, I know this is an old post, but I came looking for what to tell my older parents, whose mouse/mole-killing barncat was likely killed by the neighbors' dogs. Your comment is what I essentially said to my crying mom, but your wording is perfect, so I'll be sending her a screenshot of it in a few days when they're both a bit more clearheaded (if you don't mind). I appreciate people like you - the amount of badly-raised, biting-to-harm, unhealthy wild dogs people keep around for no real reason is angering and frustrating. They don't have good, happy lives, and when you see them up close you can see the infected wounds and weirdly-healed broken bones. Please put them out of their misery and keep them from attacking harmless farm animals. I'm so angry, I don't know what else to say. Thanks for existing.

That's very upsetting about the barn cat. But  I feel that cats must be kept indoors, anything else is cruelty to them. If not the dogs, coyotes could have gotten it or other wildlife. I knew of more than one person just shooting any cat they see on their property, also. I would never let a cat outside.

As to the owner of dog at large...these disrespectful yokels are disgusting and I'd SSS (shoot, shovel and shut up) if their dog harassed any livestock, game, pets, chickens or myself on my property (and it's perfectly legal in most jurisdictions). There's no need to wait until the dog kills anything, when it harasses or chases something: that's enough.

I laugh at what someone above said, chicken costs $20 and has no emotional value, while people "value" their dogs much higher. Well, you value your dog, but I value *my* chicken way more than *your* dog and I will shoot it if it keeps creating problems, and it will be perfectly legal. I will try to get your dog's harassing behavior on camera too first. Having done extensive rural travel over many years I've been chased by aggressive dogs endless times, while walking on public roads and have little patience left to people not controlling their beasts.

In general, I'm tired of disrespectful people (and bigots who think "outsiders" are lesser people) and, having been much against living in HOA/POA in the past and having looked for and bought a house with unrestricted land without covenants and deed restrictions (it's getting hard to even find unrestricted parcel anymore in many states) - I'm now a big friend of HOA/POA and reasonable covenants/restrictions. My next place will have all neighbors under covenants, specifically "no dogs at large". Some rural subdivisions offer acreages and very minimal and very reasonable restrictions.

They don't tell you what color to paint your house, you can have chickens, goats/sheep/horses for personal use, hunt, dig pond, etc, they just have good restrictions protecting peaceful enjoyment of your own property. This way you likely won't wake up to anyone running a noisy business next to you either, piling up unsightly junk leftovers from their business or just trash, burning those toxic materials, barking dogs all night, dilapidated rotten burned structures, etc. (been there, seen all that) Instead of having to shoot a dog or suing, and dealing with threats/retaliation, I'd rather have HOA/POA to stand between me and the jerks who don't respect others' properties. I like how in the state of TN the law prohibits dogs at large alltogether.

I recently bought unrestricted place and on day 2 of me moving in the  neighbor showed up at my door (the cabin was set way back from the road, it took quite a bit of driving to get to it for him, not to mention I'm a woman living alone and this trespassing had freaked me out, especially since there was an evidence of someone being in the cabin before who was not supposed to be there) - so he was telling me matter-of-factly that his dog "can't be confined" and will be on my property but "he doesn't bite anyone". That smug jerk needs a lesson to be taught... Having just moved in, I had no animals and barely been out on the property, but I did notice occasional night barking noise with some dog barking suspiciously close to the cabin, clearly on my property, bothering and waking me up at night. I'd have to set up a trap for it if it kept barking at night and would just take it to the county pound and make note to sheriff. Fortunately or unfortunately, I have a big life change, kind of urgent and emergency changes in my life that are forcing me to relocate outside the entire region ASAP, so I'll be selling the place soon after I bought it.
But my next place will have covenants and restrictions and may be even a (reasonable) HOA board, that one is for sure!

Dave de Basque wrote:Welcome to permies, Ann!

I would recommend Gaia's Garden by Toby Hemenway. I think that might give you the broad overview but with a lot of practical specifics you are looking for. Published, no surprise, by Chelsea Green.

I see, thanks. Yes, seems like a practical guide from quickly looking over, will read it too.

Anne Miller wrote:

food forest/forest garden - do you mean gardening on forested property or diverse range of foods grown?

When I first found the forum I was confused by those term.

This is how I now see them:

A forest garden can be gardening in amoung the trees or starting a new garden with plants among the new trees.

That might no be the exact definition, just how I perceive the term

A food forest I something anyone can do in their own backyard.  Again my perception.

Maybe some book on "homesteading" might be along the lines of what you are looking for.

To me, "Homesteading" is gardening and raising animals.

I think Leigh's book is something along that line of thinking.

I guess good to start with a couple of good homesteading "manual" type books.
(not interested in throwing money at a bunch of books, honestly, $25/piece for e-book...my ancestors lived off the land without books, I also have access to small farmers forum in my native language, those people literally live very simple and don't have money either mostly, so they're creative...but it's in very cold climate)
Back to Basics that I mentioned must be good, a lady living alone on her big property in the Ozarks had recommended it to me and I bought Kindle version for $17.
I also bought Welcome to the Farm/Elliott Homestead for $17.
I just want to read 3-4 good books and get the rest of the info online.
The Leigh book is something I'd definitely be interested in reading later down the road, the reviews say it's more of a documenting personal journey type of book. It's not the same as what I deal with as it's about a couple.

One thing I'm interested in no-till agricultural method and in general any skill that minimize use of mechanized things. In part because this is hard to obtain in remote area where I'll be or unaffordable.

Anne Miller wrote:Is there something specific that you are looking for?

Permaculture is a very broad term in that it contains the Zones you live in, the design patterns that nature provides, etc.

It is permanent agriculture.

The kind that covers wide range of topics/comprehensive, for a beginner. Something good for 10 acres with mix of woods and cleared land.

So maybe you are wanting something along the lines of a "Forest Garden" or a "Food Forest"?

The forums here are the best place to get hands-on step-by-step information and quick answers to your questions.

Leigh is a member of the forum and has written this book that might be of interest:

https://permies.com/wiki/133426/Acres-Dream-Book-Leigh-Tate

By food forest/forest garden - do you mean gardening on forested property or diverse range of foods grown?
I'd be dealing with 10 acres where several are cleared, located in zone 7.
Forums seems to have details on very specific questions, but I want to read something more of a basics get-started book (just not the general philosophy book- I can read this part on free website).
I wonder if I should just read one of those "old country ways homesteading" books instead.
I just want to have organic food self-sufficiency using good practices, make a pond, a cellar, rain catchment for well backup, bees, a couple of goats and sheep, do some small-scale straw-bale building.
I grew up outside the States where life was more simple and familiar with some basics of living on small rural parcel in very cold climate, foraging there, but not familiar with dealing with much larger parcel and zone 7.
So far, I started on Garden Farming book that you recommended. I also got Back to Basics Complete Guide to Traditional Skills book.

Anne Miller wrote:Ann, welcome to the forum!

There are so many good permaculture books it is hard to recommend just one.

Though this is original one.  It is hard to come by though your local library may have a copy:

https://permies.com/wiki/20210/Permaculture-Designer-Manual-Bill-Mollison

Here are some suggestions:

https://permies.com/wiki/153863/permaculture-projects/Building-Permaculture-Property-Rob-Avis

https://permies.com/wiki/46579/Permaculture-Handbook-GARDEN-FARMING-Town

https://permies.com/wiki/46596/Permaculture-Nutshell-Patrick-Whitefield

You might want to check out the Book Review Grid:

https://permies.com/w/book-reviews

Thanks.
I looked through Permaculture Designer Manual and it seems to be largely theoretical, not something I have time for right now.
I'm looking for more of a hands-on step-by-step stuff and more concise. Also focusing on US climates.
Hopefully other 3 books are more like that.
I looked through preview/table of contents of Building Permaculture Property and the stuff doesn't seem to be concrete... may be it's just the language in the Contents, but I don't see practical things advertised, more of philosophy type of stuff.
Garden Farming so far seems to be more practical.

Hello. Can you suggest a good book to get started on permaculture? The kind that covers wide range of topics/comprehensive, for a beginner. Something good for 10 acres with mix of woods and cleared land.