Forum:

Posts: 40

posted 2 years ago

6
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I may be a bit late to this party. I discovered rocket stove and RMH technology a couple of years ago. It instantly fascinated me. Such a simple design and yet incredible combustion efficiencies.

I think one big thing that is holding more people back from building a system is that there is a very large community of wood burning folks out there online, and for the most part as you said Paul, they dismiss the claims without even trying it themselves, and in the process make others turn away as well.

But WHY do they dismiss it is the big question. I think i may know the answer.

Part of the problem lies in the comparisons made. When someone sees the wikipedia page where it says an RMH burns 80-90% less wood than a conventional stove, immediately people are going to have an issue with that. The problem is that, while not technically incorrect, may seem somewhat misleading to a modern wood burning enthusiast.

A "conventional" stove burns a whole pile of wood and emits insane amounts of unburnt pollutants. I have an old fisher mama bear stove and boy is that thing a firewood hog! The problem is very few modern wood burning enthusiasts use a "conventional" stove anymore. The vast majority of wood burners today are using EPA certified stoves. This is where i think we are losing the average wood burner, this is the part that makes them scoff and move on. They think we are making this reduced fuel consumption claims about their modern and sophisticated units.

A conventional stove at its best rating would put out 30 or more grams per hour of emmisions, an when choked down to try and acheive long burn times would do even worse, possibly dozens of times worse. In 2015 the EPA made it law that no new wood stove could put out more than 4.5 grams per hour. This was acheived with the use of secondary burn tubes or a catalytic combustor. Which means turned down fully for the night, the stoves are still only putting out 4.5 grams or less per hour of unburnt pollutants out the chimney. There is no more "smoldering" and "choking" the fire, and they don't smoke out the chimney either, even when turned down low.

In 2020 this changed again, now no new stove sold in the US can put out more than 2.5 grams per hour, making any stove built after 2020 even more efficient than stoves from even 5 years prior. There a many stoves, such as the Blaze King that exceed even this standard. The new blaze kings put out only 1.1 gram per hour and can have the flue temperature as low as 150F. These new devices really are seriously impressive units.

I think the modern wood burner gets offended thinking we are comparing their new, clean stoves to an RMH when we talk about fuel reductions in the 80-90 percent or more range. I mean hell, a modern stove compared to my fisher will easily use 50% less wood, and put out more heat as well.

I'm not sure how hard it would be to do a comparison, but it sure would be fascinating to see how a modern EPA stove compares to an RMH. Even a stove from the 2015 EPA standards would do. Install one, burn it for a week, and do a thorough analysis of both fuel consumption, as well as taking multiple temperature readings from different places in the house.

I believe an RMH still has efficiency advantages over even modern stoves, but how much is the part we need to find out, and only once we've made that comparison can we go to the wood burning community and say look, don't spend upwards of $4000 dollars on a new stove when theres a better way. But until we can go to them with those numbers, instead of the 80-90% numbers of the conventional stove comparison from years ago, they will never take us seriously, and will also continue to talk others into shying away from the RMH approach.

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

The beginnings of a list of rocket mass heater resources:

https://permies.com/w/rmh-resources

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I'm not sure how hard it would be to do a comparison, but it sure would be fascinating to see how a modern EPA stove compares to an RMH. Even a stove from the 2015 EPA standards would do. Install one, burn it for a week, and do a thorough analysis of both fuel consumption, as well as taking multiple temperature readings from different places in the house.

Maybe we need a video (or find an existing video) of somebody reporting that they had a stove like what you describe and they switched to a rocket mass heater. They can then describe the amount of wood from before, and the amount of wood now. "I am warmer now and use about 80% less wood."

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

Justin Hadden

Posts: 40

posted 2 years ago

Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

paul wheaton wrote:

Maybe we need a video (or find an existing video) of somebody reporting that they had a stove like what you describe and they switched to a rocket mass heater. They can then describe the amount of wood from before, and the amount of wood now. "I am warmer now and use about 80% less wood."

Yes that would be great! The thing is a good RMH or masonry heater is probably pushing the low to mid 90% range fof efficiency, these new stoves are around 80% effficient or so. To some i think 10% or so gain doesnt sound like much, but even 10% in the world of thermodynamics is a massive jump!!

Maybe somebody here has already made the switch from an epa certified stove to an RMH and could chime in.

Justin Hadden

Posts: 40

posted 2 years ago

Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Not sure why my last reply formatted the way it did, tried to fix it but no luck haha

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

paul wheaton wrote:I made permies.com/heat ( https://permies.com/heat ) go to this thread.

In other words, I now wish for this bit of poetry to get into the brains of 100 million people:

permies.com/heat

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

Tony Panoochi

Posts: 6

Location: Springdale, WA United States

I like...

posted 2 years ago

7
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

After speaking with Paul at the Panhandle Preparedness Expo I came home, tore out my wood stove and got to work. Not having a parts list or step by step instructions made it a challenge. Lots of pausing the video trying to count bricks, guess distance, etc.

That said I have had it running over a week, my gravel is dry, and I am loving it. Already showed the neighbors and have been posting on prepper pages, and trying to get some other Y.T. prepper channels to talk about it. Meanwhile working on gathering parts to build a smaller one in my bedroom.

IMG_20221025_111008443.jpg

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Tony,

I had a lovely time at that event. Do you know of any other events like it in the PNW where I might speak?

Your rocket mass heater looks lovely.

And ... the big question ... do you feel, yet, like you are heating with one tenth the wood? I know it might be a bit early to be sure, but I would think you would have some vague notion.

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Already showed the neighbors and have been posting on prepper pages, and trying to get some other Y.T. prepper channels to talk about it.

And THAT is the core of this thread.

I cannot reach 100 million people, but I can reach a few thousand. And out of those, maybe there will be a hundred that will reach a dozen per month ... and then those people ...

It isn't about getting the love of a celebrity, or the love of big media. It's just us. Sharing over and over.

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

Tony Panoochi

Posts: 6

Location: Springdale, WA United States

I like...

posted 2 years ago

5
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

paul wheaton wrote:

Already showed the neighbors and have been posting on prepper pages, and trying to get some other Y.T. prepper channels to talk about it.

And THAT is the core of this thread.

I cannot reach 100 million people, but I can reach a few thousand. And out of those, maybe there will be a hundred that will reach a dozen per month ... and then those people ...

It isn't about getting the love of a celebrity, or the love of big media. It's just us. Sharing over and over.

For the next build I am going to put out an invite to a couple prepper groups - thought being get a couple people to actually walk through building one and say "I can do that" and hopefully become evangelists.

I had been thinking about doing an RMH for years, but the no chimney fire threat and not feeding a woodstove every two hours (I have had a couple chimney fires) pished me over the edge.

Add that my house temp has varied by 3 degrees since putting it in has definitely turned me into a convert.

Tony Panoochi

Posts: 6

Location: Springdale, WA United States

I like...

posted 2 years ago

6
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

paul wheaton wrote:Tony,

I had a lovely time at that event. Do you know of any other events like it in the PNW where I might speak?

Your rocket mass heater looks lovely.

And ... the big question ... do you feel, yet, like you are heating with one tenth the wood? I know it might be a bit early to be sure, but I would think you would have some vague notion.

Paul,

I'm not aware of any other events but will certainly let you know if I hear of anything.

As far as usage It's difficult to tell (at this time) as I am trying to get my son used to not tossing in wood every time he walks past. Additionally the first few days we burned quite a bit as the gravel was wet so it took a couple days to get that 2 tons or so dried out and heated up.

Thus far for a week + I have gone through about 2 wagon loads of wood. Normally this time of year about 1 wagon load a day. The past few days as the mass has warmed we have cut down significantly, but we are running it twice a day to keep the space within a 3 degree range.

Infrared thermometer shows the mass getting down to about 80 between burns (approx 10 hrs) - but due to high ceilings it is heating over 9,000 cubic feet (plus a spoiled goat's butt). If I close off the feed tube after burning the thermal fan on the barrel top will easily run 8 hours.

So after all that rambling based on what I am seeing, probably 1/8 to 1/10 the firewood.

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

And you built the whole thing just using info from which of my movies?

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

Tony Panoochi

Posts: 6

Location: Springdale, WA United States

I like...

posted 2 years ago

3
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

paul wheaton wrote:And you built the whole thing just using info from which of my movies?

Building a Cob Style Rocket Mass Heater. Didn't see a gravel one at the Expo, but figured a mass is a mass - my focus was getting the info for the heater itself.

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Pebble style is the second movie in the "better wood heat" 4-movie set.

And the new free heat movie has pebble style also.

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

3
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

paul wheaton wrote:Thanks to the bernal brothers for making this set of rocket mass heater plans free to permies

https://permies.com/goodies/103/pht

Everybody can feel free to pass this link on to anybody and everybody everywhere.

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I am trying a thing - i suppose if this gets traction i could get millions of people learning about rocket mass heaters

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/yhen5k/the_solution_for_the_heating_shortage_is/?

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

Brent Bowden

Posts: 58

Location: Richmond, VA, USA Zone 7b

posted 2 years ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I am very interested in building a RMH for my house. I am currently in the "conceptual" phase, deciding how it will fit into my lifestyle, how much modification to my house it would require, etc.

I always seem to find out about webinars months after they have come and gone.

As fun as it sounds, I'm not very likely to come to Montana and do a week long workshop.

I'm a fairly intelligent, diy capable person.

I have a lot of questions that may or may not be answered by reading one of the books or watching videos (which I have been doing). These resources are helping me understand the principles of the unit. Each RMH is a unique design, in a unique scenario, with unique needs.

What would help me personally, is a way to have a more direct discussion with an expert or highly knowledgeable person about my project. Posting or reading dozens of pages on Permies is not a very efficient way for me to learn.

Here is my suggestion :

Kickstarter stretch goal for the $100 level - small group 12 person RMH consultation with one or two expert /highly knowledgeable instructors where I can show my space and discuss my design goals.
These can be done with little to no financial overhead, via Zoom or Google meet, etc. and can be scheduled monthly or every two weeks. They can be held regionally, which will help overcome language and material availability barriers, and make the education appropriate for the participants' climate.

A survey would help determine :
Number of students
Regional interest
Knowledge /skill level
Structure type
Climate zone
Yada yada
Instructors can have some sort of syllabus. Participants would need a cell phone or laptop with a camera or be able to provide photos or drawings of their project space.

Glenn Herbert

Rocket Scientist

Posts: 4567

Location: Upstate NY, zone 5

590

posted 2 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I would take some issue with saying each RMH is a unique project. True, there are many spaces where a stock plan cannot fit well, and nearly all could have a custom tailored system designed for it, but there are many houses where one of the published plans could be built essentially as is. The trick is knowing which plan will be suitable or if a custom one is needed.

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

paul wheaton wrote:I am trying a thing - i suppose if this gets traction i could get millions of people learning about rocket mass heaters

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/yhen5k/the_solution_for_the_heating_shortage_is/?

Nevermind. I was overrun by corporate trolls and then deleted. Apparently rocket mass heater stuff is "snake oil". Or maybe they think i am snake oil. Whatever it is - you do get a clear idea of why rocket mass heaters are not better known.

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

Becky Lawson

Posts: 11

posted 2 years ago

Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Brent Bowden wrote:
Here is my suggestion :

Kickstarter stretch goal for the $100 level - small group 12 person RMH consultation with one or two expert /highly knowledgeable instructors where I can show my space and discuss my design goals.
These can be done with little to no financial overhead, via Zoom or Google meet, etc. and can be scheduled monthly or every two weeks. They can be held regionally, which will help overcome language and material availability barriers, and make the education appropriate for the participants' climate.

A survey would help determine :
Number of students
Regional interest
Knowledge /skill level
Structure type
Climate zone
Yada yada
Instructors can have some sort of syllabus. Participants would need a cell phone or laptop with a camera or be able to provide photos or drawings of their project space.

Love, love, love this!!!

Brent Bowden

Posts: 58

Location: Richmond, VA, USA Zone 7b

posted 2 years ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Glenn Herbert wrote: The trick is knowing which plan will be suitable or if a custom one is needed.

This sounds like a great opportunity for an expert to spend 20 minutes with someone on a zoom call.

If the RMH is going to become ubiquitous, then it needs to be demystified.

If I spend 3 months digging through forums looking for a plan that fits my needs, collect all the material, cut holes in my house for the exhaust, spend my precious one day off a week over many weeks building it, and then it sucks... I'm not going to be a convert and certainly won't tell anyone else to go through all of that.

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

3
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Brent Bowden wrote:If the RMH is going to become ubiquitous, then it needs to be demystified.

I think we have done a lot of demysifying. At the same time, there are still some sniggly details to still get out there.

But it does seem like it would be good if there was some sort of consulting service out there that would (for a fee) take a look at your plans and give solid advice.

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

Michael Cox

pollinator

Posts: 3897

Location: Kent, UK - Zone 8

712

I like...

posted 2 years ago

9
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I’ve had a read through that Reddit thread.

I see a bunch of people talking at cross purposes, using the same words to mean different things.

For example, the word “efficiency” gets used a lot. In the context of conventional wood stoves efficiency is used to talk about the percentage of chemical energy in the wood that gets converted to heat. It is a measure of how much I burned fuel goes up the chimney in the form of carbon monoxide/soot/creosote.

Modern high efficiency stoves burn very cleanly and by this measure typically get to 90% efficiency or more.

Paul uses efficiency to mean something very different. His measure is more like “I used to use 5000kg of dry firewood to heat my house in winter, now I use 1000kg. That is 20% of what I used to use, so is 80% more efficient.

Those two measures of “efficiency” are being used in by the same conversation, without clarity. So people used to stoves that are 90% efficient find the proposal of a stove that is 80% more efficient still as laughable. It just makes no sense.

——

Proponents of rocket mass heaters need to be speaking the same language as conventional stoves, to prevent the exact same dissonance as is seen in that thread.

——

Secondly, the savings in fuel need to be clearly explained. It’s not magic, it’s a deliberate choice to heat your home “differently”. In all likelihood you have a warm area around your stove that is super comfortable and colder areas that are not heated. If you are used to heating you whole house with conventional means - or conventional fires with circulating air - you will need less fuel to heat the more limited space.

The other reason for reduced fuel need is that the flue ducted through the thermal mass extracts more heat from the exhaust gasses.

Articulating these two specific reasons clearly is essential, so that people comparing systems understand where the benefit are.

And again, you can’t just use the word “efficiency” as a catch all, because that has specific meanings in other contexts in the discussion.

——

And lastly, people are right to be sceptical of claims that seem utterly implausible from their context. We get sold snake oil all the time, and extravagant claims that can’t be immediately backed up by hard evidence are incredibly dubious.

It doesn’t make it a grand conspiracy when people point at holes in the evidence, and inconsistencies in with claims (eg efficiency greater than 100%, caused by different uses of the same words).

There were various challenges in that thread, and elsewhere. A key one is that it is simply impossible for many people to install these in their homes. Insurance, mortgages, rental agreements, aging properties etc… are a massive obstruction to widespread use. I’m personably sold on their merits, but can’t build one in my property for a bunch of the reasons above.

And lastly, comparing the exhaust of a rocket stove to that of a single candle - again, it smacks of snake oil, and opens up easy lines of ridicule. It’s not a useful comparison in the context of comparing modern fuel efficient stoves with rocket mass heaters. You need to compare like with like in a meaningful and scientifically verified manner. Otherwise you are using an emotional appeal, that smacks of being insincere and unverifiable.

Moderator, Treatment Free Beekeepers group on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/treatmentfreebeekeepers/

PEP - BB5 Badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by gir bot

woodland care - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

animal care - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

Food Prep and Preservation - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

community living - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

Glenn Herbert

Rocket Scientist

Posts: 4567

Location: Upstate NY, zone 5

590

posted 2 years ago

5
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Some of the people in that thread have legitimate questions or complaints, considering their conventional understanding of definitions. Some are clearly prejudiced against Paul; note the huge negative thumb counts for nearly all his comments, even on uncontroversial topics or where he is saying the same thing as other commenters. The worst parts are where people demanded proof and then refused to accept the actual evidence given.

I strongly agree that it is essential to use forms of argument that cover the issues Michael mentioned so as to prevent outsiders from falling into one of the conventional thought traps. We need to get people thinking, and something that short-circuits into "that's impossible" will cancel thought and get only knee-jerk reactions. The "1/10th the wood" claim falls into this category, unfortunately. It can be true when comparing to an older stove run by ordinary schmucks in a dirty manner, but people seeing the claim may well be those with the latest EPA compliant equipment where an RMH can actually only give marginal improvement, who justifiably see it as a flat-out lie and stop listening (or worse, loudly proclaim it to be a lie.)

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I do feel like I am not qualified for this role. And I wish a hundred others would stand up and do a far better job.

I feel like these are solid suggestions. At the same time, I have a powerful urge to take a seat and see who will step up to implement them.

It does seem like there are a million non profits out there with a mission to make a difference. But the people that keep nearly all of them going won't spend ten minutes on it unless they are handsomely paid. Our group is a bunch of people that will put a lot of time into this, unpaid. There is nobody that I know of that is even doing this full time.

So we move forward continuing to make the best of it.

The goal remains the same: how to tell more people about rocket mass heaters. I think some of the important lessons here is that when we put together our information, we need to make it easier to transition. So if a thousand people look at what we have now, we might be convincing 10 to think "maybe". And if we improve the information we have, we might bump that up to 500.

... what about an infographic that features a table. Metrics down the left edge and types of heat across the top. Complete with some short urls for more information.

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

Michael Cox

pollinator

Posts: 3897

Location: Kent, UK - Zone 8

712

I like...

posted 2 years ago

10
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

A strategy I teach my debating students, when they are making a case, is to downplay the best case scenario but prove that the worst case scenario is really good.

In the context of this discussion...

Paul is promoting rocket mass heaters. In the best scenario, these are amazing. When they replace old fashioned smoke dragons burning green wood they are will be utterly remarkable when it comes to compare fuel use and clean burning. However that best case scenario applies just as well to all the other alternative modern stove designs as well. If I replaced a smoke dragon with a modern clean burning high efficiency stove, and switched to burning dry wood at the same time I would also see amazing benefits.

And in most of the developed world, where people still burn firewood they have already made the switch to using modern stoves and dry wood. Here in the UK it has been illegal to install the old style stoves for about 20 years, and this year it has become illegal to sell small loads of wood that is not ready-to-burn dry.

Maybe Paul's personal perspective has been coloured by being based in a region where smoke dragons are still the norm?

Anyway, here is where the "strategy" comes in... You need to prove that your stoves are still the best stoves EVEN IF the person you are talking to has a modern conventional burner.

You won't be able to claim 80% reductions in fuel needs, but your case will be much more relatable to people's existing experiences, and much more plausible.

eg

Compared to a conventional burner, the exhaust temperature is much lower, so a greater proportion of the heat ends up in your home

One single intense burn will keep the house warm for 12 hours or more - no need to feed it every hour

The gentle warmth of the heated bench makes for a very comfortable experience - no toasting one side while the other side gets chilled in a draft

Room temperature stays stable over long periods

They are a refinement of the traditional masonry stoves, with cleaner and more efficient combustion - masonry stoves have been use for literally hundreds of years, and have a long track record of acceptance in many regions.

And you need to be able to openly acknowledge the limitations.

It's unlikely to be legal or insurable in most places

The fuel typically needs to be of small diameter - this is a disadvantage because most people in urban areas buy in their firewood and the suppliers are pretty much standardised on length and split size. Non-standard is likely to be more expensive to keep fuelled.

Not all properties are structurally suitable - you can't put these on the first floor of a flat, for example, without substantial structural reinforcement.

The difference is that these are specific and relatable claims, that will be understood and hopefully believed by many. Where the "80% more efficient" headline just makes it look implausible.

Moderator, Treatment Free Beekeepers group on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/treatmentfreebeekeepers/

Staff note (Mike Haasl) :

First floor in the UK = second floor in the US

thomas rubino

rocket scientist

Posts: 6478

Location: latitude 47 N.W. montana zone 6A

3319

I like...

posted 2 years ago

6
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Everything Michael has said in his last two posts is spot on in my opinion.
Indeed where Paul lives and where I live, we are surrounded by forest we are also surrounded by the old style "smoke dragon" stoves.
Firewood is plentiful when every other person is a logger, so why sell/retire grandpa's old Ashley box stove? It worked for him and his dad.
Why should they spend $4000 buying some fancy new-fangled stove?
Then part of our mission is to convince them they need an RMH instead.
I had never looked at it from the viewpoint that most people other than us in rural Montana and Idaho (and a few others) already are burning 80% better stoves than grandpa's box stove.
Changing the talking points to influence mainstream folks rather than the ridge-running hillbillys (like me) just makes sense, this is the other part of our mission.

I believe you are correct about the corporate trolls doing everything they can to repress the sharing of this information.
That will not change, currently, with the profits, they all are making they can afford to hire 1000-person teams to support their agenda.
We must keep pushing the stone up the hill... we will reach the top eventually.

For all your Montana Masonry Heater parts (also known as) Rocket Mass heater parts.
Visit me at
dragontechrmh.com Once you go brick you will never go back!

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I thought a really good point was where a person has a thermostat and lots of coin. Why bother? Screwing around with sticks and stuff is a hassle. I thought about talking about pollution, but they would be doing sacrifice for the sake of less pollution - so I have a hard time pushing that.

I think there are places where the cost of annual heat could be half (or more) of their annual income. THOSE people might find "screwing around with sticks" to be quite worth it.

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

Michael Cox

pollinator

Posts: 3897

Location: Kent, UK - Zone 8

712

I like...

posted 2 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

thomas rubino wrote:
I believe you are correct about the corporate trolls doing everything they can to repress the sharing of this information.
That will not change, currently, with the profits, they all are making they can afford to hire 1000-person teams to support their agenda.

I just don't see it, personally.

I know a pair of guys local to me who ran their own shop selling and installing modern stoves. They then went on to design their own stoves, based on their combined 30 years of experience in the industry. They got them tested and put through all the legal approval processes, and demonstrated that they have a product that exceeds the legal standards for clean burning. Their stoves are a delight to use - simple design on the surface, easy to operate, but with a flawless secondary burn and an inbuilt airwash to keep the glass clean. Their stoves fit the existing housing stock - they can literally be dropped in to replace a conventional stove, or open fireplace and the flue can be ducted up the existing chimney. The whole thing can be installed and running in a couple of hours.

They and their product get nothing but support from satisfied customers, and I've never seen the hostility that you experienced in the reddit thread. Their system is efficient, clean burning, simple to understand, and mainstream. If you have your own source of firewood, they are fuel efficient and effective space heaters. And yet you don't see armies of thousands campaigning against them.

Their product is great, but it simply not significant in the grand scheme of things. And ultimately neither will RMH be. They are an incremental improvement over and existing technology. And that technology is one that simply cannot be suitable for everyone. The vast majority of the people on this planet live in densely populated urban areas. In these areas the logistics of woodburning essentially preclude it from being widespread. Where do you store a 3 seasons worth of wood, if you live in a two bed flat in an apartment? If everyone in say, London, decides to heat with wood because it is cheaper... how much deforestation will there need to be? How much will the price of firewood rise? Market forces in those circumstances pretty much ensure that heating with wood will be similar in cost, or slightly greater, than other fuels. (greater because more human labour is involved in processing and delivering fuel).

Moderator, Treatment Free Beekeepers group on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/treatmentfreebeekeepers/

Michael Cox

pollinator

Posts: 3897

Location: Kent, UK - Zone 8

712

I like...

posted 2 years ago

2 1
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

paul wheaton wrote:
I think there are places where the cost of annual heat could be half (or more) of their annual income. THOSE people might find "screwing around with sticks" to be quite worth it.

Economics doesn't work that way, sadly.

If one fuel source is markedly cheaper than another, people willingly switch. The alternate fuel increases in cost to meet the demand. So some people will inevitably switch to wood heat in those circumstances. Or will use their existing wood stove more regularly. But you can't conjure an unlimited supply of firewood for fuel. It just doesn't exist. If the UK switched to wholescale wood burning it would have massive impacts on our woodlands. And even if we did all switch, the infrastructure isn't there to cope with the massive increase in demand. There aren't enough skilled people in the forestry industry, or machinery for them to operate.

Where you MIGHT see people enthusiastically switching is in the case of those who have land but limited income. But again, in the UK most people are land poor. Gardens are small and having a total plot above half an acre is really unusual. There just isn't the scope for everyone to cut and process their own wood, and scrap wood just isn't that plentiful.

So while you can point to RMH and say "this can save you money", in practice those savings will only be seen by those people with the right, limited, set of circumstances.

Moderator, Treatment Free Beekeepers group on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/treatmentfreebeekeepers/

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

... what about an infographic that features a table. Metrics down the left edge and types of heat across the top. Complete with some short urls for more information.

Anybody wanna take a stab at this?

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

Carla Burke

Rusticator

Posts: 8771

Location: Missouri Ozarks

4674

I like...

posted 2 years ago

Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I think highlighting the relative difference in safety between them could make a difference, too. Chimney fires are far less likely with an rmh, creosote buildup is far less, etc. Anyone who has survived a house fire, has little kids, or has firefighters or other first responders in the family will almost always peel their ears up, for that info.

"The only thing...more expensive than education is ignorance."~Ben Franklin
"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." ~ Plato

Michael Cox

pollinator

Posts: 3897

Location: Kent, UK - Zone 8

712

I like...

posted 2 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Carla Burke wrote:I think highlighting the relative difference in safety between them could make a difference, too. Chimney fires are far less likely with an rmh, creosote buildup is far less, etc. Anyone who has survived a house fire, has little kids, or has firefighters or other first responders in the family will almost always peel their ears up, for that info.

Again... a comparison that is specifically relevant for old style smoke dragon stoves, and much less so for the modern ones.

We get our chimneys swept each year. We get maybe a cup of soot each time, total, and none of the tarry creosote that come from burning inefficiently.

It's important. But it is not a benefit that is unique to RMH.

Moderator, Treatment Free Beekeepers group on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/treatmentfreebeekeepers/

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

paul wheaton wrote:

... what about an infographic that features a table. Metrics down the left edge and types of heat across the top. Complete with some short urls for more information.

Anybody wanna take a stab at this?

Down the left edge could be

cost to install professionally

cost to install DIY

easy to install into existing home?

annual operation/fuel cost

annual maintenance requirements

total costs of maintenance for 10 years

carbon footprint

will it operate when the power goes out

ease of operation

estimated lifespan

dangers

limitations

potential for planned obsolescence

across the top

electric baseboard

central natural gas

mini split

in ground heat pump

propane

wood stove

modern wood stove

pellet stove

masonry heater

rocket mass heater

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

Mike Haasl

steward

Posts: 15644

Location: Northern WI (zone 4)

4898

I like...

posted 2 years ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I'd add outside wood boiler to the "across the top" list since they're popular in lots of rural areas.

SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property
See me in a movie building a massive wood staircase:Low Tech Lab Movie

PEP - PEP1 badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

round wood woodworking - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by paul wheaton

animal care - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Nicole Alderman

woodland care - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Nicole Alderman

tool care - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Dave Burton

natural medicine - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Barkley

dimensional lumber woodworking - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Barkley

natural building - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Barkley

electricity - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Barkley

Food Prep and Preservation - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

metalworking - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

Kevin Harbin

gardener

Posts: 391

Location: Zone 7a

264

I like...

posted 2 years ago

1
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I whipped these two charts up with directionally accurate data to see how the load profiles of a heat pump and a RMH might compare. For those that have used both, does this seem accurate?

zz_Heat-Pump.png

zz_RMH.png

Children, Rabbits, Chickens, Bees

PEP - BB100 Badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by gir bot

animal care - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

plumbing and hot water - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

commerce - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

tool care - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

greywater and willow feeders - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

Food Prep and Preservation - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

nest - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

round wood woodworking - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

electricity - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

oddball - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

foraging - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

dimensional lumber woodworking - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

Eric Hroboni

Posts: 77

posted 2 years ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Good morning permies. Here's some of my thoughts. As of yesterday kerosene for my house furnace 6.89 a gallon. Wowww. I think we need more people putting videos out. Seems like Paul is putting out the majority of videos and we need more people doing that. As I search for more information on rmh it's limited. Tons and tons of ideas out there but I feel like they are just ideas and people just keep going in circles and dreaming and not doing. We need more doer's. Maybe permies could put a spark in people's asses. How about a rmh challenge. Add a monetary prize for the best idea. Have different categories that sets one stove apart from the rest. I think part of the rules is to make a you tube video about their stove. More videos More traffic to permies. Also I think we should be trying to attract people from outside the permies community. I also feel like everyone is using the same materials to build these rmh.I think when people are researching rmh they find your constantly tinkering and adjusting or they burn out. Majority of people have jobs and families and a very fast pace of life just trying to make ends meet. We need rmh that someone can build or buy once and done as Matt would say. I have so much work to do around here and can't focus on the job at hand. I just can't stop thinking about how to get more people involved into the rmh world of heat.we need to prove to the world that the rmh is safe and not a fire hazard. It's one thing to build one out of cob in a tiny house off grid and you are there to baby set it all day. You gotta think of the people that have to go to work and just want to come home to a nice warm house. I've bought a lot of different wood stove's over the years. I've got two that are twenty years old and still working great just not big enough or inefficient. Maybe have different categories when judging. 1 materials used. 2cost of the build. 3 craftsmanship. 4 how many you tube views. 5 size of wood it can burn. Just a few ideas. I'm sure if permies put thought into this it you guys could figure it out. You know a attractive prize one that would make someone say I'm building one now. So this is my 2 cents worth of opinion. Have a great day permies.

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

3
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

14 years ago a guy sat at my kitchen table and told me about rocket mass heaters. I called bullshit. He was patient with me and explained and explained and explained. I went onto the internet to see this stuff. Nothing.

If what he was saying was true, this would change the world. If it is world changing, why isn't everybody talking about it? Why isn't it all over the internet and the magazines and everything?

Dunno.

My curiosity got the best of me. I signed up for a workshop. And it turned out to be all true. I pulled out my shitty camera and took video so there would be at least SOMETHING on the fucking internet.

So now we sorta have "video proof that bigfoot exists".

So the key is that I did not have one. I was renting at the time and could not build one there. And I made a difference.

The name of this thread is

how do we tell more people about rocket mass heaters

I guess I'm hoping that 20 of us will do stuff and it will change the world. Somebody will try to work over celebrities. Somebody else will make an awesome info graphic. Somebody will pull together the current facty-facts and links on building codes and insurance. Somebody will make some new videos. Many will build some for themselves and post videos. Others will visit people with them and make threads/videos whatever. Some will make plans. Some will host workshops. Some will make press releases. 20 people will do stuff.

I will keep trying to do stuff. Stuff that I am able to do. I am really hoping that there are 20 people reading these words that will "do". Do something. Take a picture. Figure something out. Find a way to get to a rocket mass heater and see it in action. Take some pictures and video. Do something.

Ideas on what to do are excellent. But they are worthless without a few people doing stuff.

Hell, even making a list of stuff that people can do would be a big help. Suppose a hundred people come to this thread they wanna "do". It would be great to give them a huge list of options to pick from.

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

Eric Hroboni

Posts: 77

posted 2 years ago

6
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Paul. Count me in as one of the 20 people. I'm all in. I am about four to six weeks away from my next super build. And will continue to update with permies. Good night.

paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 53161

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

∞

I like...

posted 2 years ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Me and Mud and Andres are gonna have a go at an infographic. Yesterday, Mud and I had a meeting and we worked on updating this list a bit. This is the stuff that would go down the left edge.

cost to install professionally

cost to install DIY

easy to install into existing home?

annual operation/fuel cost

annual maintenance requirements

total costs of maintenance for 10 years

carbon footprint

will it operate when the power goes out

ease of operation

estimated lifespan

dangers

limitations

potential for planned obsolescence

We are thinking that we need a thread for each of these. And in each thread, we would need to hammer out the details for each heater:

electric baseboard

central natural gas

mini split

in ground heat pump

propane

wood stove

modern wood stove

pellet stove

masonry heater

rocket mass heater

And then once there is something for each heater in each thread, we need to come up with the compressed thing that would fit into the infographic.

Anybody wanna have a go at starting one of the threads?

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

You frighten me terribly. I would like to go home now. Here, take this tiny ad:

A PDC for cold climate homesteaders

http://permaculture-design-course.com