• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • r ranson
  • paul wheaton
  • Beau M. Davidson
master gardeners:
  • John F Dean
  • Timothy Norton
  • Nancy Reading
  • Carla Burke
  • Jay Angler
  • Christopher Weeks
gardeners:
  • Tina Wolf
  • Saana Jalimauchi
  • thomas rubino
COMMENTS:
 
gardener
Posts: 3043
Location: Colombia - Tropical dry forest
1293
4
forest garden fish fungi trees tiny house earthworks bee solar woodworking greening the desert homestead
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Explore the information in a different way:

 
pollinator
Posts: 363
183
3
kids foraging rabbit fiber arts medical herbs
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Ahh YEAH!! The info graphic has been born! Way to go, guys! I am so excited to read over it 🤩
 
gardener
Posts: 1677
Location: Gulgong, NSW, Australia (Cold Zone 9B, Hot Zone 6) UTC +10
730
6
hugelkultur fungi chicken earthworks wofati food preservation cooking bee building solar rocket stoves
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The poster and info graphic with the links are fabulous.  I think that this will progress the discussion.  To my mind the only way to argue against is "your information is wrong because  the salesman told me my thing is better than your thing"  

Will we be able to purchase copies?  Or will they be available as dailyish freebies or to boost kickstarters?  
 
Posts: 37
Location: Pacific Northwest
7
forest garden fungi solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Don't heat it at all, except with your own activity (cooking mainly).  Instead insulate it really well with cellulose (recycled shredded paper), and use a heat recovery ventilator.
 
author and steward
Posts: 48273
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Paul Fookes wrote:Will we be able to purchase copies?  Or will they be available as dailyish freebies or to boost kickstarters?  



??

Copies of the infographic?  We are making it free to everybody.
 
pollinator
Posts: 109
42
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I notice there was a section for in ground heat pump (no range for different source such as below ground water table or pond sourced), but no values for air source heat pump.  I upgraded my backup propane hydronic system and the contractor attempted to push an air source heat pump as a better system overall than the in ground system.  While an in ground is more expensive, I continue to believe that using a large enough heat sink/source in a phreatic (below water table) system will provide better economics over time, especially if local temperatures climb precipitously.   I also did not see the fact that an in ground heat pump is far more economical for whole home air conditioning.  When one or more family members has breathing issues, the ability to cool and dehumidify the air becomes more important.  Really nice infographic, however.

 
paul wheaton
author and steward
Posts: 48273
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Likes 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
If you want to include all the variations of each type of heat, and all the variations of each state and country, and add cooling, and the other attributes that are worth considering, the infographic would quickly become 500 times bigger.  Unwieldy.  Further, it would take so much time to create such a massive infographic, the data would be changing faster than you can update the infographic.  

So, we intentionally limited it and used averages for one state.  A state known for cold.
 
Richard Henry
pollinator
Posts: 109
42
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I fully understand how a document such as this could rapidly outpace manual updating.  Have you ever looked at the site "Mike"s Weather Page"?  It is a page brimming with updated data from multiple sites that automatically are updated by the hosts of that data.  It would be interesting to see if it were possible to pull automatically updated data from multiple sources and serve it in a central location such as he does.  Not sure if it is possible, but what utility, especially if different areas could access local information!
 
pollinator
Posts: 140
Location: west Texas (Odessa/Midland)
40
2
cattle dog foraging trees rabbit tiny house books chicken pig writing homestead
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Dumb question - is the best way to share the infographic to use the URL of the HD version?
Staff note (Andrés Bernal) :

I think the best way is to share the url https://permies.com/heat so people can see the infographic as well as the links, thanks for sharing!

 
pollinator
Posts: 142
Location: San Diego, California | Zone 10a Drylands (11" precip.)
95
2
cat urban chicken food preservation cooking bike
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
That animated gif of the step by step RMH build is brilliant and utterly mesmerizing. I could watch it for hours. Great job!
 
Posts: 4
2
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Oil isn't on there? 90 % of the homes here in Maine use Oil furnaces, big oil tanks, obscene monthly oil bills. There are still coal furnaces around as well. We have woodstoves for when the power goes out, which is several times a year, but people still fill their tanks and burn the oil.  I guess I live in a bubble, because I expected oil to be the first comparison to RMH. But it's not even on there at all? Does anybody have numbers for the carbon footprint, cost, fuel cost etc, for oil furnaces? I really thought it should be on there, since it seems everybody's got one.
 
pollinator
Posts: 469
122
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Elizabeth Elliot wrote:       Does anybody have numbers for the carbon footprint, cost, fuel cost etc, for oil furnaces? I really thought it should be on there, since it seems everybody's got one.



I think so too, for the reason you mention as well as a different one- monitor and toyo (those are brand names) heaters. They are the size of a suitcase, and have models that burn #2 fuel oil, kerosene, propane and natural gas. They are extremely efficient and off-grid friendly (well, except for natural gas models) as the ignition and fan use very little electricity. They are also UL approved, so no code or insurance issues. Years ago I had a monitor in a two story rental property and it used about 3 gallons of oil a day in the winter (average maybe +20° F) to heat what was a very old, not tight building. For natural gas models I’m told the current cost is estimated at 10¢ per square foot per month for a properly insulated house, on par with a high efficiency furnace at 95%. Cost installed is less than $2000 and life expectancy about 15 years. They may not be common in Montana but they are in a lot of northern states.
The info graphic is neat but I’m also curious about the cost of wood calculation for both the wood stoves and the masonry heater and rmh. Even if your wood is free, your time isn’t. We heat with wood from our property, but we still have time cutting, splitting, stacking, bringing inside, and loading the stove (and an rmh, while using less wood, requires hours of constant feeding during the burn cycle). There’s also chainsaw maintenance/gas/oil which is still far cheaper than time spent cutting wood to length with a hand saw! So, given an average wage of maybe $20/hr, what is the time cost of wood heat?
 
pioneer
Posts: 653
Location: Inter Michigan-Superior Woodland Forest
101
5
transportation gear foraging trees food preservation bike building solar writing woodworking wood heat
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Julie Reed wrote:The info graphic is neat but I’m also curious about the cost of wood calculation for both the wood stoves and the masonry heater and rmh. Even if your wood is free, your time isn’t. We heat with wood from our property, but we still have time cutting, splitting, stacking, bringing inside, and loading the stove (and an rmh, while using less wood, requires hours of constant feeding during the burn cycle). There’s also chainsaw maintenance/gas/oil which is still far cheaper than time spent cutting wood to length with a hand saw! So, given an average wage of maybe $20/hr, what is the time cost of wood heat?


Paul and Chris (Uncle Mud) agonized over this at length here. It was open for public comment for a while before they had to decide on a viewpoint to express in that one single box on the graphic.

For me, if working within the constraints of private land ownership, wood heating is the epitome of free. One can go out and cut/gather wood, or rely on a family member to do so. One can choose between axe, saw, chainsaw, widowmaker buzz saw, whirley impaling death implement attached to truck wheel, what have you to process it. One can spend a half hour every morning and evening processing over a number of months, or spend three intensive days putting up a year's worth of wood. One can produce eggs or wool or moonshine and barter with a neighbour to have them put your wood up.

Compare that to oil, gas, electricity, or any highly system dependant sources where one must come up with the local currency to pay a corporate entity. You of course have the 'freedom' to flip burgers or any number of mindless clock based tasks to keep you busy and show loyalty to some vacuous bureaucratic structure. Ultimately you will be servicing the mob attitude of the masses that make demands of an economic system spiralling out of control, depleting natural resources and filling the environment with toxicity at an increasing rate.

The whole issue of 'freedom' is kind of a rhetorical quagmire, but I think the concept expressed here does a good job of quantifying how wood heating in an appropriate environment has widespread benefits.
 
paul wheaton
author and steward
Posts: 48273
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
A new vid about this infographic

https://youtu.be/b5r0TwitLzU
 
Posts: 219
Location: Manotick (Ottawa), Ontario
11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Why is there no mention of heat distribution methods? How do you pipe the heat to multiple rooms in a typical house? Any system that relies on radiant heat, whether or not stored in a mass, seems limited to warming a single room. It seems to me that any comparison of heating systems should include the heat distribution capability. For wood, that means furnaces indoors and out. The basic RMH you show can work well in a single room (or a greenhouse) but lacks multi-room distribution.
 
paul wheaton
author and steward
Posts: 48273
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
A mini split suffers from the same problem.  But they sell those like they are going out of style!

If you have a 4000 square foot home spread way out, you might need four rocket mass heaters.  
 
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I own a relatively new home in a forest.  All my wood is FREE other than the cost to myself for the time and chainsaw maintenance.  So, on first pass the RM heater described here, sounds pretty good.  But, my house heating experience strongly believes that this simple central heat method has no ability to transport the heat any distance at all.
On the other hand ALL other heat sources mentioned (heat pumps, some wood stoves with heat transfer tubes in them, gas and propane furnaces and boilers) have such capability using air or water to move the heat from the generator to remote points.

The comparison you make really sounds good but is simply not fairly comparing these heat generators because of this simply fact.

NOW.  If the RMH was expanding or modified by providing a water tube jacket inserted into the "mass" a simple pump could be used to utilize that heat to remote points.  However, this presupposes that there is some way to RE-transfer that heat once more.  The best way that comes to mind is to combine a RMH with a water tube transfer system that moves the heated water to a concrete pad under a single floor home-- a VERY common and comfortable way to heat a home.  In fact, the way I use in my home with a propane boiler.  The other shortcoming I see with the RMH is its size.  If its design could be such that more of it could be below ground(but insulated) and with a much smaller foot print this idea will surely "take off" as you appear to be hoping for and see widespread adoption.  But hold it.  There is ONE other thing: automatic feeding and control.  I won't go into that but you get the point.  The RMH is great for a cabin, not so much for modern adoption for what most humans expect in a comfortable home.
 
paul wheaton
author and steward
Posts: 48273
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Another tidbit of information:

If you have a central heat system where all the rooms in your home are ducted, and you have an utterly massive home - say 4000 square feet.  And it is sprawling all over the place  ....

And rather than do like conventional wood stoves (one or two stoves, maybe even three, at different locations in this giant house) or like mini splits (probably six different units throughout the house) or like baseboard heat (probably a dozen heaters throughout the house) ....    you are CERTAIN that all of these things, and a rocket mass heater are not worth consideration unless they can be operated as a central furnace, then I have a solution ...

Have exactly one of these things.  And when you think that the rooms at the far end of this sprawling home are getting cold, turn on the fan of your central system.  The heat from the one room will be mixed with all of the other rooms.  


....  

As for me ...   I have one rocket mass heater, centrally located.  If I leave the doors open to the rooms, they end up warming up a lot.  If it is 74 in the central spot, it is 71 on the extremeties.  That's good enough for me, but I think it is a fair point that it is NOT good enough for others.
 
Willie Smits increased rainfall 25% in three years by planting trees. Tiny ad:
133 hours of video: the Permaculture Design Course and Appropriate Technology Course
https://permaculture-design-course.com/
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic