1/9 Webinar: Breeding Locally-Adapted, Resilient Plants: Epigenetics and Seed Saving by Alan Booker

I'm so looking forward to this!  Epigenetics is the reason I don't pamper my seedlings in my breeding projects, especially with my citrus breeding in Maine, which has trees that have now survived 5 years without protection.  

It's going to be good coming from Alan.
I clicked on your link to see your garden, Greg. Looks good! I'm always interested in selecting/breeding hardy fruits and vegetables so your mention of citrus breeding caught my attention. Are you a member of the Landrace Gardening (Growing Modern Landraces) platform? It would be good to have you in there. The first seed exchange this year is mostly annuals but I believe perennials will follow. We need to develop landraces of all the fruits as well as vegetables. But it does take years for most fruits...

Save the date!  Alan Booker will be hosting this webinar on January 9th, 2023 at 5:30pm cst

Looking forward to this, As it start close to midnight in my time zone does anyone know how long it will go on for?

Henry Jabel wrote:Looking forward to this, As it start close to midnight in my time zone does anyone know how long it will go on for?

Probably about 90 minutes.  Just a guess.

Will the session be recorded with access to watch afterwards? I'm somewhat time zone challenged.

Jakob Leer wrote:Will the session be recorded with access to watch afterwards? I'm somewhat time zone challenged.

This is for the live event only.  Hope you can make it!

Beau Davidson wrote:

Jakob Leer wrote:Will the session be recorded with access to watch afterwards? I'm somewhat time zone challenged.

This is for the live event only.  Hope you can make it!

I would like to watch it too.  I will be traveling that day and can't join. No great loss there, as I don't have any experience in this area.  I'm prepared to pay for it, I just can't be on the call. Thanks.

I was really looking forward to this one. I'm on the mid night bandwagon and work in the morning. I would really like it recorded, if you can make it.

Info about recording and stuff: https://permies.com/t/206024/webinar-recordings-viewing

I received an error message that the meeting reached 100 participants, and I cannot join. Thoughts?

Update... got in.  Thanks Permies!

The meeting is at capacity.

I too got a message saying the meeting was at capacity and I'm unable to join.

Stuck my kids in the bath during the wrong 10 minutes of my life to get into this.  I didn't know it was going to be a race to fit in to a limited seating event.

Is it being recorded?

Hannah Johnson wrote: Stuck my kids in the bath during the wrong 10 minutes of my life to get into this.  I didn't know it was going to be a race to fit in to a limited seating event.

Is it being recorded?

I would hope so.

UPdate: I was able to get in at the 26minute mark, it said it was being recorded by host, and the total count was at 109

I'm seeing if we can upgrade our stuff in the middle of things to let in everyone in the waiting room.

I was also too late to join in advance of the 100th person... I hope it gets recorded! =(

I was on the webinar early 1/9/23.  There was a problem with my computer where it turned off on me.  Sigh,,, when I got back, there were 100 people on and I couldn't get back on.  Oh, well.  

I hope we can watch it later on.

Even though I wasn't able to join the meeting by clicking on the link.  I was able to use one of the call-in numbers.
Zoom also mentioned that the meeting was being recorded--which doesn't necessarily mean it will be made available, per the policy mentioned in this thread, but it is being recorded. So it may be possible.

Folks in the waiting room - we have never had more than 40 people show up before.  We'll make it right for you, don't worry.

They'll definitely record it because A) good information and B) too much potential to use it as a digital product and/or part of a kickstarter bundle in future.  I would expect that those of us stuck on the outside will get free access to the recording some time in the near future.

Oscar Daniels wrote:Even though I wasn't able to join the meeting by clicking on the link.  I was able to use one of the call-in numbers.
Zoom also mentioned that the meeting was being recorded--which doesn't necessarily mean it will be made available, per the policy mentioned in this thread, but it is being recorded. So it may be possible.

Andrew Rule wrote:I was on the webinar early 1/9/23.  There was a problem with my computer where it turned off on me.  Sigh,,, when I got back, there were 100 people on and I couldn't get back on.  Oh, well.  

I hope we can watch it later on.

Alexandra Malecki wrote:I was also too late to join in advance of the 100th person... I hope it gets recorded! =(

We have increased room capacity!  Click again and we'll get you right into the room.

I got in, thanks Beau!

Continually freezes & crashes so haven't seen or heard much of it. What I have heard is really good so I'd like the recording too!

Sure enough. Had an emergency come up that made me miss it. But I thought there would be a recording made available - like pretty much everyone else in the world does these days. How disappointing.

Wow, thanks @Beau, thanks Permies, for scrambling and going the extra mile so the rest of us could get in!  It was such a treat!

Would it be appropriate to post unanswered webinar chat questions to this thread?

Ezra Beaton wrote:Would it be appropriate to post unanswered webinar chat questions to this thread?

Like this?  


. . .

Unanswered Webinar Questions from the chat:

Ezra asks:
Is HGT partly responsible for the success of interplanted high diversity systems? The genetic databank that microorganisms are carrying around is more broad, so the proper defense mechanism information is more easily accessed by each plant?


James asks:
Conducting Holobiontic Orchestra. Is IMO 1-4 a plaussible approach for this epigenetic nudging?


flamin asks:
Will it benefit if I put wormcasting and compost or some active cultures in the seedling soil mix?


Rachel asks:
Where would you get samples for localized cultures


Barry asks:
What is the best way to introduce or import non-local "beneficial" biodiversity in our locally produced soil building goo?


Jeremy asks:
Is there a way to increase this kind of biological activity in a hydroponics (Kratky) system?


Louis asks:
what is the number of generations that the epigenetic change lasts after the stressor event on the original plant? is it strongest with first generation and then diminish or does it just adapt based on that plants current stressors?


Ezra asks:
So in determinate plants all seeds would inherit the same epigenetics, but in indeterminate plants it could be that the earlier fruit and the later fruit would pass on different epigenetics based on a change of climate or a weather event between the creation of the first fruits and last fruits?


Barry asks:
How long before Permies creates a epigenetic localized seed sharing platform?


Kristen asks:
How do you measure herb brix?  Can we see your brix notes?


Jeremy asks:
So is saving seeds really essential or can you get "most" of the benefit with uber healthy soil and plant biodiversity?


rachel asks:
Would you agree with IMO cultivation like in the Korean natural Farming methods


flamin asks:
How can we trigger the epigenetic change we want relatively quickly?


alina asks:
so is it not worth doing anything if I"m in a small urban property in Honolulu? Even local seeds are grown outer islands, with lots of rain and subtropical temperatures...


James asks:
Is short seed fermentation (no solt) prior to storage improves next generation and viability period?

Exactly like that! Thanks Beau!

I sadly didn't make it in either - due my own scheduling conflicts.  Would love to see a recording but understand if that is not feasible.  Sounds like it was a great sessions (based upon the questions).  :)

I missed the class! Was it recorded so people who paid can watch it?

Beau Davidson wrote:Unanswered Webinar Questions from the chat:

Ezra asks:
Is HGT partly responsible for the success of interplanted high diversity systems? The genetic databank that microorganisms are carrying around is more broad, so the proper defense mechanism information is more easily accessed by each plant?

I suspect it is a combination of HGT and multi-species quorum sensing cutting in to activate more robust soil food web activity. There isn't any peer-reviewed research on this that I have found yet, so we still have much to learn. But we have plenty of actual field experience to tell us that it actually works, so let's keep doing it as we continue to figure out all the magic nature is working when we work with high diversity.

James asks:
Conducting Holobiontic Orchestra. Is IMO 1-4 a plaussible approach for this epigenetic nudging?

Yes, if you properly harvest good genetics at the beginning of the process of creating the IMO's. The effect of IMO creation and application is to amplify the presence of the indigenous microorganisms that you capture from the local ecosystem, so making sure you have good material at the start is important.

flamin asks:
Will it benefit if I put wormcasting and compost or some active cultures in the seedling soil mix?

If you are doing biological cultivation, then yes. Adding some vermicompost, thermophilic compost, or aerated static pile compost will help with inoculation. Good aerated static pile (such as Johnson-Su) will tend to have better fungal populations, so is great for mid-succession or late-succession plants. I always check any compost with the microscope prior to application to make sure everything is looking good.

Rachel asks:
Where would you get samples for localized cultures  

If you have somebody in your area that already has a great biologically cultivated garden with robust-healthy plants, then soil from that garden would be great to inoculate your own compost. If you don't have access to that, then gather small handfuls of soil from various wild (and chemical-free) healthy plant communities in your area. Pick plant communities of similar successional stage to what you are growing if possible. Use that soil to inoculate your compost and then check with a microscope before application to make sure everything is high quality.

Barry asks:
What is the best way to introduce or import non-local "beneficial" biodiversity in our locally produced soil building goo?  

A high-quality compost, carefully packaged and shipped to maintain its biological viability, is probably the best way to transport good microbial biodiversity from one place to the other. There are now several vendors who sell biologically active compost in small quantities (just a few pounds) precisely for this purpose. You can do a simple drench to inoculate soil, or brew an aerated compost tea for foliar application (via spraying) to inoculate leaf surfaces (important for disease suppression).

Jeremy asks:
Is there a way to increase this kind of biological activity in a hydroponics (Kratky) system?  

Hydroponics is difficult since this the aqueous version of chemical cultivation. It is certainly possible using aquaponics, since this is the aqueous version of biological cultivation, in which the soil food web attempts to adapt by creating a sort of biofilm on the plant roots. I have run some experimental aquaponic systems, but never done formal experiments with inoculating the plant roots in those systems. I ended up moving away from aquaponics once I became convinced that growing truly nutrient-dense food using this method was going to be very difficult.

Louis asks:
what is the number of generations that the epigenetic change lasts after the stressor event on the original plant? is it strongest with first generation and then diminish or does it just adapt based on that plants current stressors?  

We have good evidence that epigenetic inheritance reaches the third generation (the "grandchild"), but research is still unfolding so it is hard to give a definitive answer right now. One of the famous examples is that there is evidence that a biological female smoking during pregnacy will have an epigenetic stress-response impact on both the direct offspring and the children of the female offspring.

Ezra asks:
So in determinate plants all seeds would inherit the same epigenetics, but in indeterminate plants it could be that the earlier fruit and the later fruit would pass on different epigenetics based on a change of climate or a weather event between the creation of the first fruits and last fruits?  

Interesting thought. I have never seen that question addressed by any formal research, but the hypothesis makes sense. A high-stress event, for examples, might show up through epigenetic inheritance in seeds produced after the event where it was absent in the seeds produces before the event.

Barry asks:
How long before Permies creates a epigenetic localized seed sharing platform?  

Nature tends to use decentralized solutions, so I tend to favor lots of independent local seeds banks, all working with their local community to breed and share locally-adapted genetics. A great role for Permies might be to maintain links to all of those seeds banks to help connect people to their local seed-saving communities. I'm sure Paul would be happy for somebody to volunteer to help develop/maintain that list.

Kristen asks:
How do you measure herb brix?  Can we see your brix notes?

My notes on brix are a little long to post in-line here, so maybe that needs to be a different post. In terms of measuring brix for herbs, I would recommend using a standard refractometer (optical and digital will both work) to test the sap from a leaf not in the meristem region. Go back to the second branching behind the terminal bud and pick off the second leaf on that stem. Do this the same time each day to maintain consistency between measurements (about 2-3 hours after sunrise, once the dew has lifted, is a good time). Rub the leaf between your fingers vigorously for about 30 seconds to break down the structure and release the sap. Then put the leaf through a garlic press to get a drop of sap to put in the refractometer.

Jeremy asks:
So is saving seeds really essential or can you get "most" of the benefit with uber healthy soil and plant biodiversity?  

I think of seed saving as a critical part of any program to develop local food security and food sovereignty. If you start with the wrong genetics in your seeds, then there is only so much that great soil can do to overcome that. Great soil can certainly help, but I want to see both/and instead of either/or. Doing this by yourself can be daunting, so this is a great opportunity to build community with other gardeners in your area so you can share the work and learn from each other.

rachel asks:
Would you agree with IMO cultivation like in the Korean natural Farming methods

Korean Natural Farming techniques such as IMO are certainly one of the good options for creating high-quality inoculants to help establish a great soil food web. Just like with any other inoculant, I would check it with a microscope before application to make sure it is high quality.

flamin asks:
How can we trigger the epigenetic change we want relatively quickly?  

The steps I outlined in the Breeding Strategy section are all designed to do exactly this. Things like overplanting then thinning, STUN-like management, etc. are all good for prompting beneficial epigenetic adaptation.

alina asks:
so is it not worth doing anything if I"m in a small urban property in Honolulu? Even local seeds are grown outer islands, with lots of rain and subtropical temperatures...

Your situation is EXACTLY where we need the most work. We need to start growing a lot more nutrient-dense food in our urban areas, and we need genetics that are well-adapted to this situation. I was just talking to somebody working with the mayor's office in a large northeastern city where they are trying to address issues of local food security and the increasing percentage of their population that lacks access to nutrient-dense real food. I am discussing with them ways to grow food in lots of small places (including small wicking beds, raised planters, etc.) instead of waiting to implement massive scale projects that costs lots of money and are likely to fail. I would encourage you to set up a planter or wicking bed and start growing if you aren't already. Maybe 20-30 square feet, which can grow quite a bit when intensively managed.

James asks:
Is short seed fermentation (no solt) prior to storage improves next generation and viability period?

Fermentation helps with certain families or annual crop seed. If you check with the seed saving books I recommended, they discuss whether fermentation is appropriate on a per-family basis.

Milena Sevigny wrote:I missed the class! Was it recorded so people who paid can watch it?

It was!  Now here: https://permies.com/wiki/208134/Epigenetics-Seed-Saving-Breeding-Resilient

Beau Davidson wrote:It was!  Now here: https://permies.com/wiki/208134/Epigenetics-Seed-Saving-Breeding-Resilient

Can people who had a ticket for the live event get it for free, or will it require an additional payment?

Ivan Ivailov wrote:

Beau Davidson wrote:It was!  Now here: https://permies.com/wiki/208134/Epigenetics-Seed-Saving-Breeding-Resilient

Can people who had a ticket for the live event get it for free, or will it require an additional payment?

It is available as a $5 upgrade to this thread.