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rocket mass heaters

creating the heat infographic

posted 4 months ago

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Mud and I (and Andres) are keen to make an infographic about home heat choices. Across the top will be types of heat. And down the left side will be attributes/metrics. With each metric will be a link to a thread that will act as a source for that row of information in the infographic. Or, hopefully, a bit of a bibliography.

All of the metrics for all of infographic is focused on "average for montana". Keeping in mind that the average montana home is 2000 square feet.

Across the top is several types of heat. The list has to be limited so it will all fit on the infographic. Although at a later date we could choose to make something much wider.

Electric Baseboard
Mini Splits
In Ground Heat Pump
Central Natural Gas Furnace
Central Propane Furnace
Wood Stove
Modern wood stove
Pellet Stove
Masonry Heater
Rocket Mass Heater

Down the left edge is the metrics:

x Cost to Install Professionally (materials+labor)
x cost to install DIY
x annual operation/fuel cost
x vulnerable to market volatility
* Annual Maintenance Requirement
. Total Cost of maintenance for 10 years
x Carbon Footprint
. Estimated Lifespan
. End of Life Disposal/Retrofit
x Will it Operate when the Power Goes Out
x Will it operate while I am on vacation for two weeks?
x Ease of Operation
. Immediate Local Dangers
- Systemic Dangers
- Infrastructure Requirements
- Ease of Installation into New Home
- Ease of Retrofit
. Cooling in summer?
- Off Grid
- Biophillic Design Consideration
. Hyper Local
- "Feed the bad guys"
. Able to Use Home Waste
- Consumeristic
- Self sustaining / Renewable
x Insurance Considerations
- Building Code Considerations

This thread is to talk about the general structure of the infographic, and the content of each row will be in a collection of threads.

This is going to be a lot of work. Mud and I will do 100% of it if nobody else will help. Kinda hoping a lot of people will help.

Beau edit to add:
A visual representation of where we're at in the process. I will try to update this a couple times per week as we establish values. Suggestions? Let me know.

COMMENTS:

paul wheaton

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posted 4 months ago

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One of the metrics down the left edge is "biophilic". I think I want to word this differently. Something about "natural" or "interact with nature" or "love of nature" or something. Ideas?

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paul wheaton

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posted 4 months ago

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paul wheaton wrote:One of the metrics down the left edge is "biophilic". I think I want to word this differently. Something about "natural" or "interact with nature" or "love of nature" or something. Ideas?

On the phone with mud. He is suggesting "nature connectedness"

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paul wheaton

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posted 4 months ago

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paul wheaton wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:One of the metrics down the left edge is "biophilic". I think I want to word this differently. Something about "natural" or "interact with nature" or "love of nature" or something. Ideas?

On the phone with mud. He is suggesting "nature connectedness"

Maybe "a more natural life"?

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David Baillie

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posted 4 months ago

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you really should include an air to air heat pump furnace option. You have mini splits listed are they more common in Montana then air to air whole house heat pumps?

Matt McSpadden

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posted 4 months ago

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@David,
I think maybe that is what Paul meant with the mini split. I always understood mini split to simply be a heating/cooling device that splits up the generation and distribution. Of these there are air source, ground source, water source. And then they can produce hot/cool air or hot/cool water depending on the type.

Would it make sense on the infographic to be more specific about the heat pump options? Ground source to air heat pump and Air source to air heat pump?

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paul wheaton

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posted 4 months ago

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Maybe "Mini Splits" should, instead, read "above ground heat pump (mini splits)"

??

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Liv Smith

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posted 2 months ago

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I feel we need to get some clarification on what you guys have in mind for these:

Immediate local dangers: https://permies.com/wiki/207132/Local-Dangers#1730269

Limitations: https://permies.com/wiki/207131/Limitations#1730254

Systemic dangers: https://permies.com/wiki/207133/Systemic-Dangers#1728680

Nature conectedness https://permies.com/wiki/207139/Nature-Connectedness#1730296

"Feed the bad guys" https://permies.com/wiki/207141/feed-bad-guys#1728696

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Liv Smith

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posted 2 months ago

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Also, is "in ground heat pump" the same as geothermal heat pump?

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paul wheaton

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posted 2 months ago

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Liv Smith wrote:Also, is "in ground heat pump" the same as geothermal heat pump?

yes

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Beau Davidson

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posted 2 months ago

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I just did some work on the annual maintenance metric here: https://permies.com/wiki/207124/Annual-Maintenance-Requirement#1732251

And by "I did some work," I mean that I asked some questions to a piece of artificial intelligence software and copy/pasted the answers.

If some folks want to have a look and see what came back, that would be lovely. Feel free to let me know if I should go back in and rephrase the queries to improve results.

We'll be doing some preliminary data gathering in this manner for all of the remaining categories, so if the process can be refined I'm all for it.

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Steve Zoma

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posted 2 months ago

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I don't get the "feeding the bad guys" part. I am pretty sure none of us have prisoners of war chained up in our basement and feeding them omlettes and bacon.

I am pretty sure it means how to feed fuel to the heating system, but to me too, there are no "bad guys" in terms of heating systems. When it is -20 degrees out, and blowing 20 mph, no heating system keeping me and family members warm is "bad". There may be better ways to heat based on ease of use, longevity and cost, and a search on google just might bring them here in search of better options.

So my suggestion is to rename the metric because its best to steer away from negative connotations.

Unless anyone knows where there is a pet dragon for sale though. In that case, yes, I will buy it and gladly "feed the bad guy".

Nancy Reading

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posted 2 months ago

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Steve Zoma wrote:I don't get the "feeding the bad guys" part. I am pretty sure none of us have prisoners of war chained up in our basement and feeding them omlettes and bacon.

Unless anyone knows where there is a pet dragon for sale though. In that case, yes, I will buy it and gladly "feed the bad guy".

A pet dragon might well solve some heating issues - although would cause other issues instead I guess!

I suspect the 'bad guys' in this case are similar to the 'bad guys' in Paul's build a better world book. I quite often refer to 'feeding the monster' i.e. not buying from a company with whom I disagree ethically. It's another way of expressing independence from monetary indebtedness - having to buy in stuff.

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David Baillie

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posted 2 months ago

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Steve Zoma wrote:I don't get the "feeding the bad guys" part. I am pretty sure none of us have prisoners of war chained up in our basement and feeding them omlettes and bacon.

I am pretty sure it means how to feed fuel to the heating system, but to me too, there are no "bad guys" in terms of heating systems. When it is -20 degrees out, and blowing 20 mph, no heating system keeping me and family members warm is "bad". There may be better ways to heat based on ease of use, longevity and cost, and a search on google just might bring them here in search of better options.

So my suggestion is to rename the metric because its best to steer away from negative connotations.

Unless anyone knows where there is a pet dragon for sale though. In that case, yes, I will buy it and gladly "feed the bad guy".

In most of the stories I've read the dragons eat coal and children... Probably not the kinds of fuel we want to promote.

David Baillie

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posted 2 months ago

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paul wheaton wrote:Maybe "Mini Splits" should, instead, read "above ground heat pump (mini splits)"

??

I think Air to Air heat pumps is the preferred term as it could refer to mini splits or central furnace varieties. I suppose it would play havoc on your pricing mechanism since a mini split is a much cheaper install then a furnace with duct work.

Beau Davidson

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posted 2 months ago

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Proposing a new key to help us make progress on this infographic data.

Suggested key for each topic:

The normal code is as follows:
- yet to be done
. in process
x complete

Perhaps we should add some more nuanced indicators:
? stuck with questions for experts
* ready for final revisions

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paul wheaton

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posted 2 months ago

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Sounds excellent!

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Beau Davidson

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posted 2 months ago

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We need to watch out for this AI data. I provides a starting point, and a place to look for sources, but often arrives at very false conclusions. Case in point:

Will a xxxx system work when the power goes out? Give me sources and examples.

Rocket Mass Heater

No, a Rocket Mass Heater system will not work when the power goes out. This is because a Rocket Mass Heater requires electricity to run the fan and pump, which are necessary to maintain the combustion process. Without the fan and pump, the system cannot produce the necessary heat.

Sources:

1. https://www.rmhbuilders.com/how-does-a-rocket-mass-heater-work/

2. https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/rocket-mass-heaters-in-cold-climates

3. https://www.permaculturenews.org/2014/09/17/rocket-mass-heaters-faq-answers/

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paul wheaton

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posted 2 months ago

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oof. noted.

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Eugene Howard

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posted 2 months ago

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The most common residential heat source now being installed in our area is a hybrid system, consisting of electric air to air heat pump (heats and cools), to which is added natural gas or propane backup for periods when temps drop below functional level of heat pump. This is a forced air system.

Yet another is an in floor hot water radiant heat system. Heat source is gas, electric, heat pump or ground source heat pump to heat the water, which is then pumped to various zones in home by manifold system. A very few use outdoor, wood heat boilers to generate hot water.

Ground source heat pumps far and away least cost to heat home, but also far and away most expensive to install.

If you want to add to the list.

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