Kids Tracks: Kids of all ages at Wheaton Labs Permaculture Technology Jamboree!

It's exciting to see this happening!

We've had a lot of discussion during the PTJ here, and we are currently thinking of offering the regular PTJ followed by a week of "regular PTJ combined with kids" to see how that goes.

I guess I would like to see a lot of discussion about this idea.  

My favorite part is "Kat will make it smooth."  It sounds like she already knows some families that would be interested.  

Are there activities or care for children under 5? I am in a chapter of my life where it is very difficult to go anywhere without bringing the babies, I would love to go but want to enjoy the event and not spend the whole time parenting.

This is totally not an official response, but I think there might be an area for the itty-bitties (under-5s), but it might be more of a daycare situation rather than a learning situation?

According to https://permies.com/wiki/259997/Freaky-Cheap-Tickets-Permaculture-Technology, it looks like younger kids can come, since under-2s are free:

The third week of the PTJ is priced at $350 per person. (Children under 2 years old free of charge)

That tells me that little ones can come. I'm not sure if the under-2s are just free if they're strapped on parents, and they cost if they're in daycare, though.

This "under 5" thing seems like it would need something like a church's cry room, somewhere away from distracting the ptj and that they can protest their diaper change at full volume and not get run over by an excavator. Seems like a lot of work for participants that are not fully in control of their bodies yet. Also just safety has me cringe at this.

Alan Burnett wrote:Are there activities or care for children under 5? I am in a chapter of my life where it is very difficult to go anywhere without bringing the babies, I would love to go but want to enjoy the event and not spend the whole time parenting.

Katt here, yes, there is daycare/games/ crafts for all children itty bitty to 17. That’s your official response. Sorry my responses will be slow for awhile because I’m currently the cook at the events this year but I’ll try to check in every day or so.

What kind of activities are being cooked up for the adult participants in the PTJ 25? What kind of kid activities are anticipated?

Some ideas:

I know the library has Shanleya's Quest and Shanleya's Quest 2 along with the cards.

That might be a nice addition for some of the pre-teens and older kids to take breaks.

Local, around the complex, foraging.

A peg game with some of those homemade mallets...maybe they can "repair" some of the pretty rickety stools.

Knotting - macrame stuff? - possibly small fishnet sacks they could take home (made with simple knots), we could have 2 sides ready for some that they could just "knot" them together to create it themselves...assembly

Cordage - from plants right there - start to finish

Bodgering - possibly hand-pull bark off long-dead trees - with gloves

Make a small water feature in the dirt on a hill - small hole, path to another small downhill hole, path to another downhill hole - fill with water and watch the water flow - explain the importance of keeping as much water as possible on the site

Mini RMH to build

Gathering foraged items and making a salad

Basket weaving

Small solar panel car - could be made of VERY lightweight wood

Assembly of wooden toys...using mallets (the image of Whack-a-Mole keeps popping into my mind! Lol)

Prep, lay out and dehydrate some food items

Check the SKIP tasks and make them child friendly

Small scale seed pelleting

Cob adobe - create something new or they can cover their "mini rmh"

Harvest edibles

Plant seasonal seeds

This is so exciting! I'm running this idea by my family at dinner tonight to get their buy-in, I'm so excited! Thank you Tina for giving me some ideas of what the kids will be engaged with -- that will help me describe/contextualize the event to them. I've been trying to figure out a situation ideal for going to Wheaton Labs with my family in tow and this family-friendly event and special pricing makes it an offer too good to be true/refuse! I'm so grateful!  My kids are 7 and 9 - they've been to disney world and I want to see how Wheaton Labs compares to the magical experience for them. Biophilia and real vs surreal and fake. I bet they'll have a great time!

Alexandra Malecki wrote:This is so exciting! I'm running this idea by my family at dinner tonight to get their buy-in, I'm so excited! Thank you Tina for giving me some ideas of what the kids will be engaged with -- that will help me describe/contextualize the event to them. I've been trying to figure out a situation ideal for going to Wheaton Labs with my family in tow and this family-friendly event and special pricing makes it an offer too good to be true/refuse! I'm so grateful!  My kids are 7 and 9 - they've been to disney world and I want to see how Wheaton Labs compares to the magical experience for them. Biophilia and real vs surreal and fake. I bet they'll have a great time!

Absolutely! Any ideas you have, please include them! I bet they will have a blast!

Other ideas I've done with kids in the 5-12 range:

- Carving soapstone. If you get (or have) welding soapstone, kids can carve their names into it. The soapstone is soft, so they can carve with just a nail. For extra fun, you can teach runes. They could also carve plant names and turn them into plant ID tags.

soapstone walking onion tag

They can also carve pictures

- Milk paint. They can paint signs, or they can just go paint random logs, or even paint the outside of buildings with "decoration." Our forest school LOVED painting with milk paint. It was really liberating for them. For cheap colors, you can grind charcoal and use different colored dirts. For more fun, you can buy natural earth pigments

making signs

They really liked painting the stumps

Grinding charcoal was a HUGE hit

This activity is best away from things you don't want painted

- Making cob! Stomping is fun, and cob is fun to work with. They could even make something with cob one day, and then paint it with milk paint a day or two later.

- Just plain having fun building with bricks. My kids play with them like they are legos. They also like assembling rocket stoves from bricks.

- Paper making. It's a bit of work, but the kids do enjoy ripping  scrap paper and mashing the boiled scrap paper and then making the paper. But, it takes a lot of prep-work!

Mashing paper scraps

paper making set-up

- Making animal habitats! I haven't done this one with kids, but piling up rocks for snake habitat seems pretty easy. They could also make bee waterers. I'm pretty sure there's badges for both of those.

- Making seed bombs. Once again, I haven't made these with kids, but it should be right at their level.

- Stomping nettle to turn it into fiber. Most aren't interested in the whole peeling process, but they like stomping it.

- Carding wool. I was surprised by how much kids liked doing this. They liked it better than spinning the wool (though, they did enjoy making yarn, too). A cheap spindle can be made with pencil, cardboard, tape and paperclips. I had my students make them, and they were able to, aside from the paperclip, which were hard to bend. Lots of other cheap spindle ideas here

easy, cheap spindle

- Cooking stuff. Kids like cooking stuff, especially yummy stuff. Even if it's just mixing no-bake cookies or something, they'd probably have a blast. And everyone would get cookies.

- Broom-making. If there's enough of the right kind of branches, you could make brooms. Or, make feather dusters if there's a supply of feathers. The younger ones will need one-on-one help. There's PEP badges for both activities: broom and feather duster

feather dusters are fun

brooms are also fun

- Building a debris shelter. They'll likely only work on this for a while the adults finish it and they play. But, they do really enjoy making it, and then playing in it.

- Berry picking! Kids love berries. Even if they don't bring any back to share, they'll be busy and be eating.

Tina Wolf wrote:Some ideas:

I know the library has Shanleya's Quest and Shanleya's Quest 2 along with the cards.

Does it have the Wildcraft game, too? Kids really seem to enjoy that one, and they learn some medicinal plants in the process.

Another idea might be to have a story time during the day, or at least having a stash of books to use when you need to reel the kids back in, or it's too hot to go out. bunch of ideas here and here, maybe parents could bring a book or two with them? Or maybe read a fun fantasy/survival book out loud to the kids.

Fantastic ideas Nicole!

Nicole Alderman wrote:

Does it have the Wildcraft game, too? Kids really seem to enjoy that one, and they learn some medicinal plants in the process.

Another idea might be to have a story time during the day, or at least having a stash of books to use when you need to reel the kids back in, or it's too hot to go out. bunch of ideas here and here, maybe parents could bring a book or two with them? Or maybe read a fun fantasy/survival book out loud to the kids.

I just saw that game! They have a special ending tonight, so I'll order it and send it to WL!

Nice! My kids love playing that game. I would suggest, for the little ones, just playing until you get to the berries and ending the game there. Trying to make your way all the way back down from the top of the mountain can take a bit too long!

Here is a yummy looking bunch of berries for the Kid's Tracks to include!



from Elizbeth Petty's post here

Aurora House wrote:This "under 5" thing seems like it would need something like a church's cry room, somewhere away from distracting the ptj and that they can protest their diaper change at full volume and not get run over by an excavator. Seems like a lot of work for participants that are not fully in control of their bodies yet. Also just safety has me cringe at this.

Hello Aurora!

Yes, of course!  Wheaton Labs is a big place and keeping everybody safe is top priority.

Often kids need to be loud and exuberant.  Sometimes they can be cranky and whiny.   That is ok, we have space for that.  

The kids will have their own areas with appropriate activities.  

Many parents are looking for opportunities for their kids to be barefoot in nature, connect with the earth, learn about plants, animals and craft things with their hands.   This is a safe environment for these experiences and the personal growth they foster.

Parents of very young children need peace and quiet for breast feeding and nap time.

We have spaces for all of it.



Katt is doing a beautiful job of putting all this together and Paul is making space for us to live our dream of permaculture kids in community.

My husband and I were planning to attend PTJ next year.  We just aren't sure he can get the PTO approved.  So we are thinking of buying one ticket for me,

I'm a little confused - it sounds like parents should attend the PTJ (weeks 1-2 at $450 each) and then sign up for a third week for kids, at $350 each person?  

What do we do with our kids for weeks 1&2?
What do the parents do during week 3?
One parent is stuck in the rat race and three weeks off of work isn't tenable.  I'm struggling to figure out how this would work for a family of four.  And if its too hard to figure out, I'm unlikely to buy a ticket at this moment, but there's four of us that would absolutely love to come to Wheaton Labs as a unit.  

But I'd like to have my then 9 year old doing a lot of the work by my side.  Not sitting and playing card games with other kids.  

Briana Great wrote:My husband and I were planning to attend PTJ next year.  We just aren't sure he can get the PTO approved.  So we are thinking of buying one ticket for me,

I'm a little confused - it sounds like parents should attend the PTJ (weeks 1-2 at $450 each) and then sign up for a third week for kids, at $350 each person?  

What do we do with our kids for weeks 1&2?
What do the parents do during week 3?
One parent is stuck in the rat race and three weeks off of work isn't tenable.  I'm struggling to figure out how this would work for a family of four.  And if its too hard to figure out, I'm unlikely to buy a ticket at this moment, but there's four of us that would absolutely love to come to Wheaton Labs as a unit.  

But I'd like to have my then 9 year old doing a lot of the work by my side.  Not sitting and playing card games with other kids.  

Hello Briana!

It sounds like week three would be perfect for your family to come.  You can work on the projects all together.

Is it possible to return the 4 tickets to the 3rd week and instead purchase the 3wk package for 4? or could I pay the difference instead of any returns.

It appears that with enough families, we could share the child care responsibilities for the first 2 wks. I'm in! This might be the closest to a village experience that I might ever get to have and I look forward to this experience just as much as being able to build really cool things!

My husband is also in the rat race and could work remotely from Montana during the 3 weeks, so as long as he has a setup to sit at a computer for 10hrs Mon-Thursday, then he can join the meals, walk around on occasion, and then jump in on Fridays. I'd like to try to make this work! He might be able to spread out the limited vacation time he gets, depending on too many future things.

When I was reading through the thistle program, my kids were shocked that they could even earn BBs. They never considered the possibility that they could do the skills and earn BBs themselves. They're ready to get started! All this to say that I might have a kid ready to be elbow-to-elbow with me next year so going for 3 weeks next year might be really great timing!

Alexandra Malecki wrote:Is it possible to return the 4 tickets to the 3rd week and instead purchase the 3wk package for 4? or could I pay the difference instead of any returns.

Hello Alex!
Yes! We can set you up with a payment link to just pay the difference.

Alexandra Malecki wrote:
It appears that with enough families, we could share the child care responsibilities for the first 2 wks. I'm in! This might be the closest to a village experience that I might ever get to have and I look forward to this experience just as much as being able to build really cool things!

I agree!  The community experience is a huge thing for me too.   I did not know how much I missed community in my life until I started hanging out at Wheaton Labs.

Alexandra Malecki wrote:
My husband is also in the rat race and could work remotely from Montana during the 3 weeks, so as long as he has a setup to sit at a computer for 10hrs Mon-Thursday, then he can join the meals, walk around on occasion, and then jump in on Fridays. I'd like to try to make this work! He might be able to spread out the limited vacation time he gets, depending on too many future things.

A lot of folks have to do some worky job stuff while they are here.
We have good internet and an excellent work space in the library.   If he needs something different, let us know and we will work it out.

Alexandra Malecki wrote:
When I was reading through the thistle program, my kids were shocked that they could even earn BBs. They never considered the possibility that they could do the skills and earn BBs themselves. They're ready to get started! All this to say that I might have a kid ready to be elbow-to-elbow with me next year so going for 3 weeks next year might be really great timing!

I am so glad you are getting your kids excited about SKIP!


If I were you I would put my name on a cabin.   They will get booked quickly.
Cooper Cabin and Allerton Abbey are the two best examples we have of the WOFATI design.

Cooper Cabin is the biggest and has an indoor bathroom.  The sauna is very close.
Allerton Abbey is really beautiful too.  It is fenced and has an out house in the yard.

oh, yeah, I see what you're saying. Thank you for all the info, Samantha! Would someone kindly send me a link to pay the difference? I'll have to think through the cabin possibilities.

Allerton Abbey is tempting and I'd like to explore that option more.

I think the first two weeks is like this year: no kids.  Maybe teens that will go along with the thistle program.  

Then the third week includes kids.  And what the dealio is with kids during the third week is up to Kat.

If there are gonna be kids here for the first two weeks, I would think it would have to be something far away from the projects and the adult stuff.  At this time, I was just thinking that the kids would be here for just one week.  

Naturally, people with kids is the way things will be long term.  But it seems about half the parents just expect to drop their kids off in my office with the idea that i will keep them contained as much or as little as fits their comfort zone (Group X).  At the same time, other parents take excellent care of their kids and are respectful to all the other people here (Group A).

And as we try to design stuff, it seems that we have to come up with systems that punish Group A to we don't have the problems that come with Group B.

So, at this moment, we are selling tickets to the 2025 PTJ.  The first two weeks has no kids, and the third week has kids.  All because Kat has some ideas about kid stuff that she wants to try out.  I'm in favor of that.  

Alexandra Malecki wrote:oh, yeah, I see what you're saying. Thank you for all the info, Samantha! Would someone kindly send me a link to pay the difference? I'll have to think through the cabin possibilities.

Allerton Abbey is tempting and I'd like to explore that option more.

How many 1 week tickets did you buy? I can send you a link for the difference.

Tina Wolf wrote:

Alexandra Malecki wrote:oh, yeah, I see what you're saying. Thank you for all the info, Samantha! Would someone kindly send me a link to pay the difference? I'll have to think through the cabin possibilities.

Allerton Abbey is tempting and I'd like to explore that option more.

How many 1 week tickets did you buy? I can send you a link for the difference.

I sent you a purple moosage with the link!

Thanks! Tina

My guess is that the first two weeks will be mostly people that don't have kids.  This year we had a lot of people that had kids, but the kids were not here.  A lot of young adults and a lot of empty-nesters.  So probably the same next year.  

The third week ptj (and we might need a better name for this if we sell enough tickets) is all kids.  And babies and toddlers.  And kat has plans and is figuring it out.

I have heard a rumor about there being a dozen tents set up at the dances with pigs meadow, and that will be some sort of lord-of-the-flies meets day-care-village.  So child storage combined with rotational adult supervision.  And these children will be thoroughly contained, somehow, up there.  Not sure how pooping will be managed.   This would, possibly, happen for the entire three weeks.  

During the third week, the pooping happens at our willow feeders.  And the feeding can happen at basecamp and maybe also cooper cabin.

During the first two weeks we are feeding only adults (and maybe a thistle teen or two).  And our projects have zero kids.

I have had assistants ask me about people asking to buy tickets for little kids during the first two weeks and I've said "definitely no. Little kids are not adults, and little kids can't even be in the thistle program.  They are limited to the third week thing-a-ma-bob."  Of course, when adults come to the first two weeks, they can pitch a tent for free.  And it sounds like there are schemes brewing where adults will pitch their tents and form some sort of child care kabal/rotation/scheme that has nothing to do with me.  I think that this can be okay, but I need a lot of reassurance that it won't be a problem.  Maybe people will come here between now and then and create a new willow feeder up there?

90 minutes left.

There's only 4 tickets left! Wow!

I don't know if I've ever seen event ticket sell this fast. I really think this indicates how much many people have needed a family-friendly permaculture event!

Good work, Paul & the team!

We didn't hit our minimum, so there will not be an event for 2025.